Warming Layers

[_4_]

Let's hear what some of the more seasoned operators pack out in their rucks for cold weather.

How do you layer? How do you keep warm in your hide site or while static in the field?

[Local]

I can't comment on military applications or tactics... but I've been doing a lot of back country snowboarding this season and have tried a ton of gear in some of the craziest conditions. Full white out on the side of a bowl no one rides in the swiss alps type stuff.

I'm glad you made this thread as I've been meaning to make one my self asking for everyones advice on layering.

Let's see

Base layer:
Underarmor cold weather gear boxers (they are skin tight) & burton red impact armor shorts
Burton snowboard socks reaching up over my knee
Underarmor baselayer longsleeve shirt

Mid layer:
Hot chillys top and bottom - got these at the snowboard expo for $45 total (usually 60 for top, 60 for bottom) but knowing what I know now I would gladly pay full price. Damn things survived a month in the swiss alps - kept me warm with just a northface shell over them in all conditions - from super cold to white out. They were tight but not constricting, let me breathe, didn't make me overly hot, wicked all the sweat away from my body and still kept me perfect temp wise. I literally couldn't say enough good things about this product. They even managed not to smell too bad..

Warmth layer:
I don't personally wear anything here (see hot chillies above) but if you are in real super subzero temp you will prob want something like a northface liner here, or even a wool sweatshirt. You want this layer to be slightly bulky as your body will warm up the air this layer traps.

Shell layer:
Choose by waterproof rating here. Your other layers will keep you warm, this layer just has to keep you dry. I've always ridden with northface shells and I really like the free thinker and most recently I got a revelation hyvent alpha. Northface def has a price premium built in there though... I've been lucky and always managed to find them at the end of the year / summer sales. I hit the glacier at 45mph and slid on my jacket for about 100ft ... I thought I was going to tear right through the jacket but it took it like a champ - just a small wear hole on my elbow and scuff marks on the back. It has the powder skirt feature too which let's you zip or snap the jacket to compatable snowpants to really keep the wet out no matter which way is up for you.

Some suggestions - open your shell layer whenever u start to feel you are sweatting. Use glove liners under your gloves so you can take your thick gloves off without exposing your fingers to the elements. Never let water or snow get inside your gloves or your goggles..

Never, never, wear any cotton. Cotton gets wet and cold and stays wet and cold.

If you don't have access to the microfiber stuff, seek to use wool for everything but your shell layer. Wool is great because even when it gets wet it stays warm.

If snowboarding /skiing - wear a god damn helmet. Get one that looks cool, has your music speakers in it, whatever so long as you wear it. The better I've gotten the more close calls I have and a helmet (along with the red impact armor I mentioned earlier) will turn a potentially serious fall into a ho hum fall.

Def looking forward to hearing the professionals gear choices and tips!

- local

Ps: headed to vail first week in march, might be able to secure some extra free lift tickets for verified SOCNETers / contributors....

[Rip Shears]

Start with a thin wool base layer (Icebreaker, Patagonia, Smartwool). Then add a mid-weight polyester over it. Top with soft shell or Gore-Tex XCR/Pro-Shell. Vent as necessary. The synthetic-over-wool combination sets up a serious static charge in the synthetic layer which greatly enhances the wicking action of both fabrics and maintains a comfortable micro-climate next to your skin. I figured this out by accident while snowboarding last year. Works well with socks, too.

[Rip Shears]

Also, a couple of light layers on your legs will keep you from having to go heavy up top. Same method: synthetic over wool.

[histanthling]

Melting isn’t an issue (www.csiro.au/files/files/p9z9.pdf) with wool (old turnout gear (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/escape/timefire.html#turnout) relied on wool); polypro (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Polypro) melts at about 130–171℃ standard state (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Standard_state) (I assume the melting point would be different at altitude). For what it’s worth, New Balance recently introduced a line of wool underwear (http://www.adsinc.com/new-balance) specifically for the military clothing market.

[Hostile0311]

Skivvie shirt base layer, field jacket liner as a warming layer, poncho and liner as shell. Maybe a wool beanie, but it better be way below zero before it comes outta the ass pack. Anything more and you run the risk of being called a pussy.:biggrin:

[jeager]

The warming layer being bulky loose fitting is a concept proven when Amundsens' team got to the South Pole and back and Scotts' became scurvied popsicles.
"The Last place on Earth" and its' Brit TV series are great studies in management style.

I would add a minimal closed-cell sleeping or sitting pad for those static moments.

Also, snack on high energy foods.

Gotta try the synth-over-wool Static Generator! (Cold Fusion!?!?!!?)

[arizonaguide]

No cotton. Never Cotton. Absolutely ZERO cotton in cold weather..NO exceptions! Cotton is essential (for me anyway) in HOT Arizona weather though. NO cotton in COLD WX.

My system (30+years growing up in Alaska, Remote, etc):

1. Thin polypro base layer, also acts as cabin/fireplace/campfire clothing. (yep, chicks dig it). :cool:

2. (optional) depending upon temperature: Thin WOOL layer.
Thin Wool layer (or Thinsulate products may be substituted)

3. (optional) depending upon temperature: Goose Down/LOFT layer.

Goose down, Holofill, or whatever "modern" LOFT insulation synthetic you prefer...provides LOFT..(closed cell airspace of some kind). Freakin balled up newspaper will work if you have nothing else. MUST create an airspace.
Think "LOFT" (thickness).

4."breathable" Gore-Tex WIND/RAIN breaker/pants. (or Pancho).

With many "venting" options such as zippered armpit vents, etc. Allows extra venting while exertion. If I'm not going to be doing much exertion/movement I will sometimes use a Pancho for this layer...especially if it involves a lot of sitting on the ground.

Sitting/Sleeping pads (as mentioned) always good if you have room (For COLD WX, the Foam "Loft" of some kind is better than Air Matress/inflatable type).

Layers 1 and 4 are almost ALWAYS used.

Layers 2 and 3 can be combined/alternated based upon weather/temperature/exertion. (like wool long-johns below, with a down vest above, etc.) That's the beauty of layering...it allows tailoring to the situation.

[arizonaguide]

How do you layer? How do you keep warm in your hide site or while static in the field?
If you're not moving around the only way to keep warm (without artificial heatsources) is to INSULATE (and stay dry). A "thick" layer of air/clothing that is trapped and stays warm once heated to body temperature. Think about a wetsuit...even wet, it traps the layer of warmth. A "drysuit" is even warmer because it traps a layer of air. WET skin will transfer heat over 200x faster than dry skin.

Here's a pretty good article on the theory.
http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/articles/dress+layers.html

Always wear a good HAT! Like grandma said...much body heat is lost through the top of the head. (wool or fleece). And good boots (waterproof/some LOFT).

[btq96r]

Skivvie shirt base layer, field jacket liner as a warming layer, poncho and liner as shell. Maybe a wool beanie, but it better be way below zero before it comes outta the ass pack. Anything more and you run the risk of being called a pussy.:biggrin:

Testify!

In line with Hostile0311's fond remembrance...

Once upon a time, back in the BDU Army,

Soldiers in hide sites only had minimal snivel gear because space in the ruck was at a premium. They were full up with shit like the radio, OE-Tree54 and batteries, field stripped MRE's and 5 gallon water cans, material to help construct said hide sites, and in the case of my old MOS, ground surveillance sensors to be implanted. They would wear polypro's, smoking jackets, black PT caps and maybe Goretex outer layers. Some Soldiers who grew up in warmer climates and hated the winters knew how to pack well and could fit the black sleeping bag in the mix somehow. It would suck, but that's what came with the job. They would return from the field and warm their cold bones with booze.

The End.

[chip8541]

Echoing pretty much the same sentiments the three items you need to worry about Is your wicking layer, insulating layer, and vapor transmission/water resistant layer.

Exampes: poly pro, under armor thin wool underwear for wicking.

BDU top, field jacket liner fleece etc. for warming

goretex, soft shell type for vapor transition layer.

wicking layer draws perspiration from skin negating sweat remaining on skin for its cooling effects.

insulating layer trapping pockets of air that your body can warm up.

vapor transmission to release water vapor without letting it back in your layers.

all of this can be added with extra insulation layers that you can strip as see fit. Ive seen poly pro top as the best deal on a bright sunny warm day, in cold at elevation while moving. A fourth layer to consider is your over whites which you can adjust by wearing just the bottoms or the tops as a white green combo adjusting with your background as you conduct your movement and subsequent harbor site or patrol base.

An added benefit of cotton over whites is that when wet and frozen over stiff on a cold windy night on a sentry it actually accentuates the insulating properties of your layered system not to mention blocking the wind.

The camo tests we done with multiple patterns and over white patterns, the desert Marpat digi pattern worked better than all over white selections for snow.

Keep good circulation with your footwear without blister issues. synthetic or wool socks as they are usable/dry the next morning if you zip them in your fleece against your body while in your bag. Find the happy medium. In cold weather while static your blood shunts to your organs as a natural survival measure which could exacerbate a poor circulation problem, and potentially turn to cold weather injury. never touch metal object or mess with fuel without gloves. Fuel of many types have a different freezing point than water. very cold fuel on bare skin creates frostbite issues.

Good warm headgear and good goggles in the event of a storm. Sunglasses during the day is a must as well. snow blindness is a reality.

Finally and there is a whole host of other issues I can put out, but keep your guys busy, productive and moving around when you can. never let them get lazy. Priorities of work requires many extra tasks to be added to the list. Cold and complacency/mental "cocooning" is something to keep at bay.

sorry for the long winded answer. oh and keep one easil accesible layer you can take out the top of your pack for a movement halt. You are usually sweaty and a 10 min halt can get cold.

[chip8541]

personal stoves are gold for water making, drying gear and cooking food or soup. Down some hot soup or liquid food, before sleep you will stay warmer all night. the heat you have in your bag is created by your body. Calories do that. a nalgene filled with hot water inside your bag is nice too. you can down it in the AM or PM before your next movement. Depending how you roll.

[histanthling]

One thing I’ve learned is that you can’t move enough to keep your feet warm if the soles of your boots aren’t insulated.

[Hostile0311]

Chip8541 nailed it. Bridgeport is all starting to come back now. Some of the best training I got in the Corps.
His sunglasses comment made me think of another little trivial tip which is bring sunblock/lip liner, especially if you have fair skin. Your lips/nose will take a beating. Also, an empty Gatorade bottle in the sleeping bag at night is priceless. Sounds gross but once snug in the bag, getting out to piss in the middle of the night in -20 is a bitch.

[Horned Toad]

No cotton. Never Cotton. Absolutely ZERO cotton in cold weather..NO exceptions! Cotton is essential (for me anyway) in HOT Arizona weather though. NO cotton in COLD WX.



I guess these guys didn’t get the “no cotton” memo

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5076634.stm

And I really have to wonder how everyone survived before the advent of modern synthetic clothing

[histanthling]

I guess these guys didn’t get the “no cotton” memo
Cotton is never a good choice for the wicking or insulating layers but tightly woven cotton (in the form of gabardine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabardine), for example) can be a good shell. It repels water well enough, does very well stopping wind, and is quiet. The descendents (http://mpmuseum.org/securpara.html) of the Denison smock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denison_smock) used in contemporary Commonwealth-member militaries are good examples.

Ventile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventile) is even more tightly woven than gabardine and clothing made from double-layered ventile is waterproof. The fibers on the outside layer absorb water and being already so close together close any space that would allow more water to penetrate. I’ve never worn ventile (would love to but the fabric doesn’t come cheap) but my understanding is that when this happens the article of clothing becomes heavy as a rock and when initially removed can pretty much support its own weight. So ventile isn’t the ideal shell layers for anyone who might be caught out in any rain that amounts to more than a shower. But anyone who has to contend with super-low temperature, super-low precipitation environments can’t do much better than ventile (the bright orange parkas worn by members of Antarctic expeditions, for example).

[Horned Toad]

Cotton is never a good choice for the wicking or insulating layers but tightly woven cotton (in the form of gabardine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabardine), for example) can be a good shell. It repels water well enough, does very well stopping wind, and is quiet. The descendents (http://mpmuseum.org/securpara.html) of the Denison smock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denison_smock) used in contemporary Commonwealth-member militaries are good examples.

Ventile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventile) is even more tightly woven than gabardine and clothing made from double-layered ventile is waterproof. The fibers on the outside layer absorb water and being already so close together close any space that would allow more water to penetrate. I’ve never worn ventile (would love to but the fabric doesn’t come cheap) but my understanding is that when this happens the article of clothing becomes heavy as a rock and when initially removed can pretty much support its own weight. So ventile isn’t the ideal shell layers for anyone who might be caught out in any rain that amounts to more than a shower. But anyone who has to contend with super-low temperature, super-low precipitation environments can’t do much better than ventile (the bright orange parkas worn by members of Antarctic expeditions, for example).



I didn’t mention Ventile on purpose since it was invented in WW2.

As far as the OP goes, several posts from in this thread touch on the fact that it wasn’t so much of an issue of staying warm as making conditions bearable with what you were issued and what you could carry. When I was in things were pretty regimented and you only used what you were issued, if you were lucky. I hear things are a lot better now in regards to gear and soldiers being able to use non issued items.

When I went out it was a brown cotton t-shirt, some sort of snivel gear, a rip-stop cotton BDU shirt and then a Gore-Tex parka. Options on snivel gear were limited to the sleep shirt, lightweight and medium weight poly pro, the bear suit, wool sweater, and the liner from the field jacket. I can’t ever remember taking the LW poly pro, sleep shirt or bear suit to the field. All that ever went was the Gore-Tex, the mid weight PP and usually one other snivel gear top. As was said it had to be super cold to even consider trying to stuff a sleeping bag in there and deal with the weight penalty.

So there is no trick to staying warm the trick is how much stuff you can afford to carry.

[Hostile0311]

I can echo what Horned Toad said as it was the same in the USMC. You could only wear what was issued. If your TL/SL/ Plt Sgt found anything other than what supply issued you were in the shit. "Uniformity of gear" was the mantra. I remember buying an after market sleeping pad that inflated and was somewhat comfortable. I made the mistake of swapping it with my ISO mat after a gear inspection and taking it on a field op. My squad leader spotted it and waited til later that night until we were unrolling our kit after the range. He cut it to ribbons with a KBar. Had to sleep on the ground the rest of the field op. Pack light, freeze at night. That's what "spooning is for".:biggrin:

[Hot Mess]

I'm no "operator" but SF gets issued about a $6000 cold weather gear system and it freakin' rocks! It's all Patagonia and worth it's weight in gold. I was just shooting in TX with weather in the low 30's and one hell of a wind (20MPH). The layers worked awesome and there are 5 I believe. Add to that a fleece bennie and you're G2G.

The new pattern has little squares on the inside that trap air close to your body so you are not losing the heat that your body is producing. My buddies in the Q from Regiment had pretty much the same system.

As for "conformity"...yeah that's gay. One of the reasons why I left Regiment.

[Horned Toad]

I'm no "operator" but SF gets issued about a $6000 cold weather gear system and it freakin' rocks! It's all Patagonia and worth it's weight in gold. I was just shooting in TX with weather in the low 30's and one hell of a wind (20MPH). The layers worked awesome and there are 5 I believe. Add to that a fleece bennie and you're G2G.



I would never claim operator status but unlike some replies in the thread I can at least say I spent more than a couple of nights in a hide sight.




As for "conformity"...yeah that's gay. One of the reasons why I left Regiment.

I also really hated the uniformity part but since I only did one enlistment I never saw leaving as an option.

[histanthling]

And I really have to wonder how everyone survived before the advent of modern synthetic clothing
One option was gabardine (after about 1880), wool, and a big, bushy beard (http://books.google.com/books?id=STs1loP7sfsC&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=gaberdine+invention&source=bl&ots=Rpl4HBqsPD&sig=75TMM3qPspp88sn_f9nKDsxOxts&hl=en&ei=F9GZTaOxEM6I0QGpzKD8Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=gaberdine%20invention&f=false). Inuit-made skin clothing (http://books.google.com/books?id=ZD2_7LRxGwsC&pg=PA41&dq=Arctic+clothing+of+North+America+part+II+materi als&hl=en&ei=99SZTcyvEsy2twf_wtX6Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Arctic%20clothing%20of%20North%20America%20part% 20II%20materials&f=false) was better but harder to come by.

[Horned Toad]

One option was gabardine (after about 1880), wool, and a big, bushy beard (http://books.google.com/books?id=STs1loP7sfsC&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=gaberdine+invention&source=bl&ots=Rpl4HBqsPD&sig=75TMM3qPspp88sn_f9nKDsxOxts&hl=en&ei=F9GZTaOxEM6I0QGpzKD8Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=gaberdine%20invention&f=false). Inuit-made skin clothing (http://books.google.com/books?id=ZD2_7LRxGwsC&pg=PA41&dq=Arctic+clothing+of+North+America+part+II+materi als&hl=en&ei=99SZTcyvEsy2twf_wtX6Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Arctic%20clothing%20of%20North%20America%20part% 20II%20materials&f=false) was better but harder to come by.

That was pretty much a rhetorical question.

[Hot Mess]

That was pretty much a rhetorical question.

LMAO, and that is what you get with someone in a PhD program....a total lack of the obvious:smile:

And it looks like you do have the right to comment on being in a hide site:cool:

[histanthling]

LMAO, and that is what you get with someone in a PhD program....a total lack of the obvious
I guess I’ve been stuck in a world in which posing questions and providing accurate answers to them is taken dead seriously for too long.

[RGR.Montcalm]

Thin balck poly ninja suit
Medium poly (brown)
Gortex top/bottom

Dry out your boots in the bottom of your fart sack at night- dry boots are key to staying warm while static.

Dry socks- your feet sweat far more than you think

Polar fleece/wool watch cap- I carried/wore 3 in Alaska- 2 in pockets drying, one on my head

Old Alaskan saying- "If your feet are cold, put on your hat"

To carry your sleeping bag if you have an ALICE pack- get some "spaghetti straps" to carry it outside the ruck- use a compression bag to make it small as possible....

[Guy]

I guess I’ve been stuck in a world in which posing questions and providing accurate answers to them is taken dead seriously for too long.The 'accuracy' of the answers given here are pretty much from living and/or working in a "cold" environment. I just got out of training in a snowy/cold environment and trust me when I say:

"My DNA make-up was not made for that shit!":biggrin:

Stay safe.

[Horned Toad]

I guess I’ve been stuck in a world in which posing questions and providing accurate answers to them is taken dead seriously for too long.

It’s great that you are putting all that effort into school and studying at the level you are and I will admit it’s something I could not do, but I think you need to take a step back and look at your post in the context of where you posting at and the difference between what bad answers will get you. In your current world I honestly have no idea what repercussions you would get from an incorrect answer, I would think a simple bad grade would be the least of it. For our troops going in harms way a bad answer can get someone maimed for life or killed. So which of those situations is really dead serious?


Also if our OP is going out in a hide site, his team will square him away, at least by the second trip.:biggrin: I seem to find that just telling someone something never seems to work and that they need to find out that the stove is really hot on their own.

[wowzers]

Does anyone have suggestions for warming layers that won't smell like ass after two wears? I wear capeline to work and the smell is horrendous. Pretty much any synthetic I wear takes on a permanent stench as soon as I break a sweat. I need something that I can wear in the rain under rain gear and by itself when it is a little warmer. I would like to try and not have to buy expensive wool to thrash in the brush, but that may be what I'm looking at.

[Jong]

Wool is it and if you search around the internet you can find stuff on sale. I have gone to wool because I too can't stand the stench, but have rarely paid full price.

[ccorgr175]

...I'd like to get some of that Smartwool snivel...but I don't have $200.00 to spend on two pieces...:eek:

2%

[Jong]

There are plenty of wool manufacturers out there and if you search around the web, especially during the spring you will find plenty of stuff on sale so you don't have to spend that much.