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Samuel
20 October 2000, 14:30
Hi,
I have just read the book FIRST INTO ACTION by Duncan Falconer,it's about the british SBS.

He claims that the SEALs has learnt alot from the SBS.This cannot be far from the truth because they've been around since 1945 and have done alot of pionering in the maritime area.

But about two of his claims i have questions about.

Claim 1:
I quote:"In 1982,when the US Navy SEAL's decided to put together their own anti-terrorist group(ST6),the SBS trained and advised it's first members - a roll it's still performs today."

Claim 2:The SBS have set-up the current SEAL's sniper school.

Is he telling the truth?

Samuel.

tadpole2
20 October 2000, 15:04
If I`m not mistaken U.S.M.C. GySgt. Carlos Hathcock helped set up the SEAL sniper course.

tadpole

Toronto_Firefighter
23 October 2000, 16:58
A Marine having a part in setting up a shooting course in the Navy would not be surprising to me.

I though marcinko trained ST6?

Samuel
23 October 2000, 21:25
Toronto,i thought so to.

One of them is a liar and i want to know who.

Fred & Trident,any comments?

trident86
24 October 2000, 09:40
I am not a sniper, but I can tell you without reservation that our guys hold Carlos Hathcock in the highest regard. I'm sure he had something to do with the setup of our initial course. We'd be fools not to tap into his experience and knowledge. Maybe some of our long gunners can add to this......

Gary
24 October 2000, 15:52
Carlos got around back in the day. He was a great source of knowledge and many units came to him to tap that wealth of knowledge. The Navy sends its shooters to a number of schools to include the Corps Long Gun Schools. We just had two Trident wearing Sailors graduate the 1st Mar Div Sniper School not to long ago.

future_sailor
24 October 2000, 18:38
Carlos Hathcock: Marine Sniper. 72 confirm kills. I read a biography about Mr. Hathcock. It was an excellent book about his life both in the Marine Corps and outside of it. I know that Hathcock passed away, but if I was given the opportunity to meet him, my first question to him is how can one weigh the value of life after killing 72 people. If you think about it, Carlos Hathcock is the equivalent of a mafia hitman. The only difference is that he did it legally by serving his country through the Marine Corps. I guess it takes an extremely special man like Mr. Hathcock to have such a job as hunting someone down like a deer then sniping them.

[This message has been edited by future_sailor (edited 10-24-2000).]

Toronto_Firefighter
24 October 2000, 19:57
I think it was actually 92 confirmed kills. I'm not totally sure though. Somebody who could take that many lives, in a war or not, is not somebody who should be looked up to.

Toronto_Firefighter
24 October 2000, 19:59
93, my mistake.

future_sailor
24 October 2000, 20:16
Mr. Jones,

Well, if you think about it, the only legitimate profession where one can legally hunt and kill someone with out facing felony charges is the military. Specifically, military snipers.

future_sailor
24 October 2000, 20:27
Toronto_firefighter,

In a way, I do agree with you. Carlos Hathcock did kill a lot of people, including a sadistic woman who enjoyed torturing Marines and a little boy who was acting as a weapons and ammunition currier for the NVA. But I would like to look at it more as of a favor to our country than mere pleasure. I wouldn't think he was proud of killing that many people.

[This message has been edited by future_sailor (edited 10-24-2000).]

JSOCMarine
24 October 2000, 21:20
Originally posted by Toronto_Firefighter:
I think it was actually 92 confirmed kills. I'm not totally sure though. Somebody who could take that many lives, in a war or not, is not somebody who should be looked up to.

Toronto,
After reading your posts on another string about the execution of that scumbag murderer of women and children, I must conclude that you are a pacifist to the point that any and all killing seems unjustified to you. You are entitled to this opinion, but I dare say that you will not find many people agreeing with you in this forum. May I ask if you have any military background?

Carlos Hathcock was one of my sniper school instructors, and you can take this to the bank; WE ABSOLUTELY LOVED AND RESPECTED HIM! He was an exceptionally reserved and non-assuming person, and unless someone told you who he was you would never be able to pick him out of a crowd as one of the best snipers in history. He was a religious, devoted family man who had unquestionable integrity and character. Like all professional warriors, he never glorified killing.

His sniping skills took at least 93 NVA/VC lives, which in turn saved many times that amount of American lives. Remember, the men he killed were actively hunting Americans. Some of them were hunting him! That is what war is all about. In my opinion, your indictment of Carlos as someone who is not worthy of respect and admiration is entirely out of line and unfair, especially in a military forum such as this. Please take your agenda elsewhere. S/F

MTS2
24 October 2000, 21:25
Toronto firefighter:

"Somebody who could take that many lives, in a war or not, is not somebody who should be looked up to"

I wouldn't look up to him if he "murdered" 93 people. I DO look up to him for "killing" 93 enemy...providing he's on the side with the sole purpose of defending freedom and opposing tyranny (which I think he was), and providing the enemy wasn't POW at the time. I never read the book, so I don't know what the circumstances were; but if he killed according to what I mentioned above...I wouldn't care if he knocked off 993 of 'em.

In conclusion: Hathcock had 93 confirmed "kills", not "murders". THAT is the difference between him and a "mafia hitman"...and it's a BIG difference.

Baker
24 October 2000, 23:25
First off, yeah, I know this belongs on USMCNET, but I just couldn't help myself.

http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/rolleyes.gif You're right Toronto. GySgt. Hathcock was a horrible person. Definately not worthy of anyone's respect. Same goes for anyone who kills, right?
How could he live with himself after killing those poor, innocent V.C.?
They surely wouldn't have harmed any Americans, would they?
Instead of killing them, he should've arranged a meeting with his targets. Maybe had a big bowl of rice and talked about their feelings. I'm sure they would've listened. They would have seen the error of their ways and convinced their superiors to lay down their arms and them everyone could've held hands and sang campfire songs.

Whatever.

Gimme a break man. I've read your posts. I know the line of work you're in and I understand your abhorrence of death and NEEDLESS violence. (in case you missed it the first time, notice the emphasis on NEEDLESS)

GySgt. Hathcock was in a different world than you or I will ever hopefully experience. He was no different than a Police Officer, or maybe even yourself. Just wanted to do his job and go home safe. He put himself in harm's way in order to protect his brothers. Eliminating the enemy was his way of doing so.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I damn sure look up to and respect him. He achieved excellence. He had a job to do, and instead of getting all P.C. and touchy-feely about it he went out and did it. At the end of the day, he and many of his brothers got to live another day.

Sometimes I wonder if you spout off on here just to get everyone pissed off. Come on man, this IS a Military site, WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU LEARN IN THE MILITARY??? If you aren't directly involved in KILLING, you are in a support position. Maybe you're cooking meals for them. Maybe you're providing intelligence for them. Maybe you're just washing their damn uniforms, but you ARE part of the process. I guess all Military personnel are unworthy of respect aren't they? I mean, in some way they contribute to someone who might KILL someone. I'm sure you won't look up to them either.

Like I said, you've got your opinion, that's fine. We all have a right to be ignorant, you may continue to exercise yours if you wish. Just don't expect to come on here and post this P.C. crap without opposition.

Go ahead and withhold admiration for GySgt. Hathcock if you want. There's more than enough differing opinions to keep the balance in his favor.

You've had your say, now I've had mine.

I'll move out of the way now, I think there's a line forming behind me.



[This message has been edited by Baker (edited 10-25-2000).]

Gunny Hicks
25 October 2000, 00:02
Future Sailor and Toronto Firefighter. I rarely feel an emotional response rise after reading the posts on these forums. The tributes to our fallen Marines in Beirut had that effect. But so did your posts here.

I understand words to these effect were written on a c-rat box by an unknwn Marine at Khe-Sahn:
"For those who fight for our freedoms, it has a special meaning that the protected will never know"

Your negative comments about GySgt Hathcock is taken very personnal by fellow Marines, and fellow Snipers in particular. I have no doubt that the many Marines, whose lives were saved because of the accurate fires of Gunny Hathcock would also be offended. We are not trained to murder. We are trained to kill innocents. We are however prepared to risk our lives so that you, the protected will enjoy your freedoms.
Consider your remarks before typing them. When it is about an experiance with which you have not shared, or dared to live through, think about those who have.

Fred
25 October 2000, 01:05
you fucking canuck jackass - you will never get it. why do you hang around?

future_sailor
25 October 2000, 01:28
Hicks,

I didn't mean to offend you. Mr. Hathcock was an extrodinary man. I've read his biography. He was a Marine with utmost qualities serving our counrty to the best of his abilities. I salute him for that.

Fred,

No I am not a jackass. I have a lot of respect for those who gave their lives for the sake of our nation.

gcocksedge
25 October 2000, 01:41
Future_Sailor

I don't think Fred was referring to you about the jackass portion of his post. I think he was probably referring to Toronto_firefighter who is Canadian (Canuck is a slang word that refers to someone from Canada).

Of course GySgt. Hicks' comments were directed towards you.

Grace

Jeff Rambo
25 October 2000, 01:58
Future_Sailor,

From your posts here on NAVNET, and your post on ARNET ... I can officially come to the conclusion that even though Fred was not referring to you, you are indeed a jackass. I'm sure you aren't a fucking jackass (Scary thought), but you are indeed a jackass.

I wouldn't be surprised if you are have a moral dilema (thats what Dr. Laura refers to them as) mixed with a mild-case of a split personality disorder, leading me to believe you are 101FutureRanger as well.

Toronto_Firefighter,

We all are entitled to our own opinions as stated here in this thread, and elsewhere of course. However, after having to read your crap on the thread regarding execution and now this, I would like to say two things to you--two very important things to you ...

1- Read "On Killing : The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society" by Dave Grossman. (This goes for you as well Present_Jackass/101PresentJackass)

2- You are indeed a fucking jackass.

Thank you, and have a nice night.

------------------
Sincerely,
Jeff A. Rambo
NBTNDT
------------------
Disrespect cannot be commanded, it must be earned.

Toronto_Firefighter
25 October 2000, 02:14
The hypocrisy in this forum is outrageous.

I read in posts all the time about people fighting for freedom. Yet twice I have openly disagreed with popular opinion and for that have been told to leave and asked to keep quiet. The freedom that you claim I have been given exists where? I can't share a difference of opinions without being insulted and silenced. Not all have done this but most have.

I understand that there is killing in war. People get killed by other people. What is the difference between killing and murder? Killing is an accepted for of murder. I know you guys are active military, but you used to be human beings right? Can you understand what I'm saying? Nobody kills for peace, they kill for power.

People who kill for a living should not be looked up to because of how good they are at their job. Look at the shape this world is in right now because of things like this. Hathcock did what he had to do in a time of war so I am not going to take shots at him.

I see every day what the result of killing is and I do not wish that on anybody. Most of the responses that I have recieved have been issued by people who have no concept of death and killing. But those people tell me to keep quiet.

I'm not going to discuss this here anymore, my e-mail address is on my profile.

josepy
25 October 2000, 02:44
Toronto_Firefighter -

I think everyone here who has seen death or been in combat will agree with your post in theory.

Carlos Hathcock brought Marine sniping to a new level where his legacy continues today. Either fortunately or unfortunately his confirmed kills measure him as a sniper. It would be hard to describe a legendary sniper by not including as his major accomplishment, his killing of men.

In today's PC world killing on any level no matter the circumstance is bad, as well it should be.

In Desert Storm, we had no kill policy and no confirm killing lists. Why do you think? Vietnam was a war of attrition. Desert Storm was about accomplishing a direct and definitive MISSION, period.

War and killing is a necessary evil even today. I, for one, am not in support of glorifying death or killing. Of course I would be the first one in the door to avenge my brothers who died on the USS Cole.

Go figure.

future_sailor
25 October 2000, 03:02
Jeff Rambo,

Do you love starting arguments? Or are you just hopelessly inconsiderate? So far you have done nothing but criticize my opinions or questions. I visit this website for both recreational and informational purposes. My long term goal is to become a Navy SEAL. This is something that I'm really looking foward to. This website has provided for me vast amounts of information of the Navy SEALS which I appreciate. I could also appreciate a little respect from you since I never disrespected you in any way. I respect everyone's opinions and thoughts here. I will never single out anyone just because of what they believe. Which includes you Jeff. But if you intend to be negative in each response to my messages, then I would appreciate it if you back off.

Thank you.



[This message has been edited by future_sailor (edited 10-25-2000).]

abaustin
25 October 2000, 05:08
Originally posted by Toronto_Firefighter:
I read in posts all the time about people fighting for freedom. Yet twice I have openly disagreed with popular opinion and for that have been told to leave and asked to keep quiet. The freedom that you claim I have been given exists where? I can't share a difference of opinions without being insulted and silenced. Not all have done this but most have.

Freedom is what you make of it. Everyone has the 'right' to speak freely, according to our Consitituion--which thousands upon thousands have died for. At the same time, I wouldn't go into the inner city and exercize my right to free speech by telling the gang-bangers, drug-dealers, etc. what I thought of them. I have the right too, but it is stupid.

Is it stupid for you to speak your mind here on your opinions? I don't think so. Others disagree. I think at the very least you should be very cognoscente<sp?> of what you say and who you are saying it too, which from what I've seen you don't seem to do.

Nobody kills for peace, they kill for power.

I disagree most vehemently with this, and I think this demonstrates the lack of grasp you actually have on the concept of death and killing. What 'power' did GySgt. Hathcock get? What 'power' does any soldier on the line get? None. They survive and their buddies survive--there is no power involved.

You're right, people don't kill for peace--'Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity'--but they kill because they have to. THey kill to protect themselves, their teammates, their fellow serviceman, and all the innocents in the world.

As a little experiment, go find a cop who's killed someone in the line of duty. Tell them that they were killing for power. I'm sure they'd be happy to give you a realistic perspective.

I see every day what the result of killing is and I do not wish that on anybody. Most of the responses that I have recieved have been issued by people who have no concept of death and killing. But those people tell me to keep quiet.

I'm gonna be honest here, but you hide behind your occupation all too often. Get over it. I'm a Paramedic too and I worked for Philadelphia Fire Department. I don't know how hardcore things are in Toronto, but the 'City of Brotherly Love' isn't a garden-spot. At the same time, there is no way I'd compare working in Philadelphia to Vietnam, there is no comparison. THe fact is, you're 'safe.' I didn't carry a M-16 when I went to work. I had the star of life on my collar and a big red rolling box that kept me safe. Is it dangerous? Sometimes. Is it 'Nam? No fucking way. And the implied comparison in all of your positions is just mind-staggering.

You've watched a few people die. I'm sorry, that sucks, and I've been there. I've had a few nightmares too. Guess what? Life goes on. Just watching someone die, or trying to prevent someone from dying, doesn't make you an expert on it. It doesn't even make you special.

I don't have a problem with you speaking your mind. You do have a right to free speech, and you're currently exercizing that right. If other people tell you do shut up, that's their deal, and as far as I can tell, you haven't been banned so you speak at yoru discretion. At the same time, the same applies to them, and you have to deal with the consequences of what you say.

In any case, I just wanted to make my point on the Paramedic != Expert on killing, bit. I'm done.

Andy

Fred
25 October 2000, 06:24
Canuck, it's the condescending, presumptuous tone of your posts that mark you as a jackass. Maybe you think anyone who has killed should not be looked up to, and that's great, but you pontificate to the rest of us on the subject as if your 2 cent opinion (Canadian cents at that) is some universal maxim. Lighten up Aristotle.

Daredevil
25 October 2000, 08:43
future_sailor, if you feel that highly trained military personnel are the equivalent of mafia hitmen you might want to reevaluate your motives for wanting to be a SEAL. If that's what you think, then you must be considering putting yourself in the same lot as Mafia killers. That seems a little morally ambiguous to say the least.

There's a big difference between killing for God and Country and murdering for some greedy fat cigar chomping mafioso.

jcollettusa
25 October 2000, 09:31
No matter how utterly disgusted you may be by what MR. Hathcock did he SAVED LIVES.

Do you really think that there wasn't VC snipers?

What do we have a military for if they cannot kill?

Is it better to drop a bomb from 3 miles up on a city that will kill indiscriminately, meaning kill women and children or whoever is in its path, or to have ONE SHOT ONE KILL against a known combatant?

I could care less what you do for a living, if you can't handle death than maybe you need a new occupation. Seeing someone die is not easy for anyone, but some can cope with it better than others. Maybe you should seek new employment. However, don't ever come in here and imply that we are murders, because we do a job THAT YOU COULD NOT HANDLE. If there were no Totalitarians, Dictators or evil citizens in the world than we would not need a military, but since there are, you need people like us to give you the right to say what you want. You have a freedom for a reason, and YES people died for your freedom.

Freedom comes at a price, some are willing to pay for it and others are not.

I had the pleasure of meeting Carlos, and it was one of my most memorable experiences. He is a true hero, and does not deserve to ever be criticized for serving his country honorably and proudly, especially on a BB such as this.

------------------
Semper Fi

[This message has been edited by jcollettusa (edited 10-25-2000).]

YTDEVIL
25 October 2000, 10:04
It's not just your condescending, presumptuous tone that makes you a jackass, it's seems to be you as a whole, that makes you a condescending, presumptuous jackass(I'd rather call you an asshole).

YTDEVIL S/S PLT 1/1

Gunny Hicks
25 October 2000, 10:15
Once again Toronto Fire Fighter, you have psoted a statement that I have a problem with:

"What is the difference between killing and murder? Killing is an accepted for of murder. I know you guys are active military, but you used to be human beings right? Can you understand what I'm saying? Nobody kills for peace, they kill for power."

Murder is the unconscionable taking of the life of a Non-Combatant, unarmed, innocent civillian. In Combat, the kiling of an armed, uniformed Combatant is ot murder. I will not go so far as to say it outright self defense, because we have voluntarily joined the military, knowing that we could be in combat, and since we volunteered, we could have avoided the situation, by just remaing out of military service. But what we do is not Murder. I think we exchanged posts on another Forum about religion and the military, and how it also infringes on the subject of taking lives. Have you forgotten those posts ?

As for having once been human beings ? Hel, the last I checked, I syill was human being. And I think that mmy combat experiances have refined my Morals to a higher level. I know that each time I pick up my young son or daughter, I certainly have a greateer appreciation for life...not a stronger desire to end some one elses.

While I was in Hungary, my wife was at an Ambassadorial function, and some of the other women, upon hearing that I was a Sniper, and had been in combat asked...

"Aren't you afraid to live your kids at home alone with him"

You're statements almost fall into the same realm as theirs. Uninformed, ignorant and presumptuous.

Am I any less a Human Being because of my Military Service ?

And I ask you to define what power I derived from killing the enemy in combat ?
Like Socrates, I challenge you to describe why you think this. What is this statement based upon...what experinces or observations have lead you to conclude that Milatary people kill for power. Can you substantiate this statment ? Or was an emotional statment not supportable in a socratic argument ?

RAT
25 October 2000, 13:02
future_sailor

"Hicks,
I didn't mean to offend you."

1st before you join the Navy. Learn that we are MARINES.

2nd MARINES have rank and you either address us by Rank: PVT, PFC, LCPL, CPL, SGT, SSGT /STAFF SGT, GYSGT / GUNNY, 1st SGT / MST SGT, SGTMAJ / MST GY SGT or just plain MARINE.

DON'T EVER CALL A MARINE BUY HIS NAME LIKE YOU DID. VERY DISRECPECTFUL.

I want to see you call a MASTER CHIEF BUD/S INSTRUCTOR by his last name.

Here is what you'll look like. http://smilecwm.tripod.com/sm/drown.gif

RAT (PLF'ING OFF HIS SOAP BOX) OUT!!!

PIMguy
25 October 2000, 13:07
Toronto,

Your anger is misplaced. Soldiers don't start wars, Politicians start wars! If you think Carlos Hathcock should not have been killing people in Vietnam then your beef is with the men who ordered him to go there and do his job.

pomofo
25 October 2000, 13:33
RAT,

Cut the guy a little bit of slack will you? He's going out of his way to be polite, unlike a lot of other people on this board. The first time I ever heard the term gunny used was on an episode of JAG a few years ago and I had no idea what it meant. I'm sure most people in this country don't, plus futuresailor is relatively new to the board.

Secondly, as a civilian, if I address a Marine whose last name I know I'll address him as Mr. So and So, not by his rank. That's to be expected from a civilian.

Thirdly, as Mr. Hicks was addressed simply as Hicks, that leads me to assume that futuresailor interpreted Hicks as a first name, as many users undoubtedly use their first names or nicknames (e.g. Fred) Hardly a mistake worthy of such vehement criticism.

MTS2
25 October 2000, 14:18
Anybody here watch "Tour of Duty"? This entire thread brought me back to one of the last episodes where the medic was indirectly responsible for the death of an American soldier for not taking the life of a VC when it had to be done. Good example of why that kind of mind set about killing in war is nothing short of lethal. Anyone else see it? Great series by the way, wish it still came on.

Daredevil
25 October 2000, 14:25
It still comes on on TNT sometimes on Saturdays around noon. Unless they changed it again. It was on everyday up until a couple months ago.

Gunny Hicks
25 October 2000, 14:40
RAT: appereciate your correction for Futre_Sailor. As an active duty Gunnery Sergeant, I have been called far worse in the past two decades than simpl 'Hicks'. When it comes to a civillian or another service, I just bite my lips (most of the time) and continue on. It is hard to tell the Ambassador, that you'd rather not be called by your first name, or that unlike the Army, 'Sergeant' doens't apply to all ranks E-5 and above. (this only applied to the political appointees, not the career foriegn service officers, they realy knew and appreciated the Marines)

MTS2: Most Corpemen and Army Medics are considered 'non-combatants' and carry a card identifying them as such with the accords of the Geneva conventions. If they actually take up a weapon and kill an enemy, they would lose that special protective category of being a non-combatant. (that is the technical stuff...but I assure you, very few of our enemies have held their fire if they ever noticed a red cross on the helmet, or A-bag of someone in the field...in combat, every one in front of the muzzle is enemy. Especially is he is in the same type uniform as the rest of the enemy, as pretty as it sounds, the special category of being a Non-Combatant, it doesn't mean that nemy lives by that standard).

SF Medics, and Force Recon and SEAL Corpsmen are considered Combatants, they are operators, who are also trained as the medical support for their teams.

Morph-X
25 October 2000, 15:44
Woa. I very rarely check out this particular forum - wannabees have started to turn my stomach to the point of just not wanting to know they exist.

And to restate what someone else mentioned, this seems better suited to the USMC forums.

Having said all that, S/F to my fellow Marines - DMs, SSs, Ground Pounders and you Battallion Recon Lurkers. I just want to reiterate what some of the others have said -it is hard to imagine anything having to do with sniping, stalking, and fieldcraft in general over the past 30 years having not been touched by GunnySgt Hathcock. And beyond that, for sheer motivation alone, he walks among the legends of the Corps. Discipline. Honor. Integrity and just being an all around good guy make him a tremendous role model. I read Marine Sniper during Boot Camp way back when and the superior Whitefeather during MCT (I don't know what it's called nowadays). Both books recounted a story of [IMHO] what a Marine represents. In many ways, I feel SEALs stand for many of the same ideals.

Now as for this nonsense about the "value of life" that someone was going on about, sniping is far more than sending a round down range. Fieldcraft: scouting, stalking, surviving are equally important. Hog hunters are a tried and true force multiplier, security option, surveillance and target acquisitions asset and counter-sniping element. [This includes DMs - all the work, half the glory].

Climbing down off of my soapbox, I would also imagine the Marines like Lt. Col. Chandler might also have had a hand in SEAL sniper training procedures.

One more thing - if I may add to Gunny Sgt Hicks' point. As a Former Marine deployed to a number of "Peace Keeping" missions abroad in the past decade [I won't debate the politics or reasoning behind my orders simply that I complied]I never saw my role or that of any other Marine [SS, Grunt, Mechanized, whatever] as anything less than a life saver. If a round fired from my weapon inflicts incapacitating damage on any enemy asset [live or otherwise], I feel that is one less asset that can be used against the civilians I have been charged with protecting or my fellow Marines who are likewise doing the job they've been given.

If a sniper can manuever from OP to OP in a square in, say, Sarajevo to offer counter-sniper support to a Red Cross unit trying to administer aid to civilians, then let the red mist drift. It is not about the killing (sniper bravado aside) it is about the saving of lives.

Of course, that could just be my naive take on what I see as an honorable profession.

[This message has been edited by Morph-X (edited 10-25-2000).]

future_sailor
25 October 2000, 16:40
Judging by some of the messages here, I see that I've offended a bunch of people. I apologize in full sincereness for it was not my intetntions to upset anyone. If I do become a SEAL and go into combat which required taking another human life, I will do it without any questions or regrets. I'm off to study my ASVAB book.

Jeff Rambo
25 October 2000, 17:44
Originally posted by future_sailor:
Jeff Rambo,

Do you love starting arguments? Or are you just hopelessly inconsiderate? So far you have done nothing but criticize my opinions or questions. I visit this website for both recreational and informational purposes. My long term goal is to become a Navy SEAL. This is something that I'm really looking foward to. This website has provided for me vast amounts of information of the Navy SEALS which I appreciate. I could also appreciate a little respect from you since I never disrespected you in any way. I respect everyone's opinions and thoughts here. I will never single out anyone just because of what they believe. Which includes you Jeff. But if you intend to be negative in each response to my messages, then I would appreciate it if you back off.

Thank you.

[This message has been edited by future_sailor (edited 10-25-2000).]

Actually, no I don't like starting arguments. Inconsiderate? No. I am pretty considerate of all, I just have a low tolerance for stupidity and ignorance, which both seem to be apart of your genetics from what I see in several of your posts.

Secondly, if you can't deal with the heat here from me and others, then I strongly suggest you rethink your future profession.

Pay close attention to my quote in my signature.

- Out


------------------
Sincerely,
Jeff A. Rambo
NBTNDT
------------------
Disrespect cannot be commanded, it must be earned.

Baker
25 October 2000, 17:58
MTS2 - yeah, I watched Tour of Duty back when it first came on, and still try to catch it in syndication now when I can. GOOD show. Like Daredevil said, it used to came back on everyday, but I can't find it on now. The name "Baker" is a reference to the show and Eric Bruskotter's character.

I also remember the episode you mentioned, good point.

Jeff Rambo
25 October 2000, 19:31
LOL Baker, if you're Baker, then I'm Carl. Although the blonde hair ain't gonna work twin brother.

Seriously though ... official word from TNT/Turner:
"TOUR OF DUTY can be seen periodically on TNT."

------------------
Sincerely,
Jeff A. Rambo
NBTNDT
------------------
Disrespect cannot be commanded, it must be earned.

MTS2
25 October 2000, 21:07
lol...maybe I'll switch MY name to Zeke! After a while, it got to be that I pictured every army sergeant to look like Terence Knox. I had no idea the show was still on though; that's great...I'll probably end up taping a few of 'em.

RAT
26 October 2000, 21:10
pomofo,

You said:
"Thirdly, as Mr. Hicks was addressed simply as Hicks, that leads me to assume that futuresailor interpreted Hicks as a first name, as many users undoubtedly use their first names or nicknames (e.g. Fred) Hardly a mistake worthy of such vehement criticism."

This is "HICKS" PROFILE right off the side of the post.

Gunny Hicks
Member

Posts: 88
From:Instructor, Infantry
Platoon Sergeants Crs,
Camp Pendleton, CA
Registered: Sep 2000


Hard not to see that. Details. Have to live by Details.

Plus that was not an ass chewing at all....

Semper FI.

RAT not being belt fed http://smilecwm.tripod.com/paladin/uzi.gif OUT!!!

Gunny Hicks
26 October 2000, 21:47
I had not realized when IO changed my profile, that my current duty station, in all of it's detal would list there along side of every post. I had mistakenly thought that it would appear only on the profile page, if some one clicked on it, and wanted to know who I was, and how to e-mail me.

I will be revising that profile following this post. I had not intended for it to be so..well...so flagrant or obvious. Seems almost boastful. Not my intention.

Gunny Hicks
26 October 2000, 21:52
Profile Revised

pomofo
27 October 2000, 13:05
RAT,

Again, as I said before, it's possible that futuresailor interpreted Hicks as a first name or nickname. Not everyone recognizes that "Gunny" means Gunnery Sergeant, so to assume Gunny Hicks or Hicks is a nickname isn't that much of a stretch, especially since only one name was given, not first and last together. Just trying to give futuresailor the benefit of the doubt. Don't I recall one thread in which the discussion topic was the lack of knowledge on the part of the general public regarding the military? As this forum is open to the general public one can't assume that everyone on this board knows everything, especially Marine Corps ranks, as this is the Navy SEALs forum, not the Marine Corps forum. Your explanation may not have been an asschewing, (vehement was perhaps too strong a word to use), but it certainly could have been worded more politely or respectfully (without the shouting).

Gary
27 October 2000, 15:23
Pomo, true, kids do come here to learn about the military but it’s best to keep the old mouth shut for a while and pick up what you need to get by. That kids been here a while and as such probably understands what the name and rank stand for. He just has no respect yet as he isn’t in the military. It will come.

Anyway according to you I can know sign in a Gunny Gary. How’s that

RAT
27 October 2000, 16:17
Thanks for covering my SIX. Gunny Gary.

What Gunny said was going to be my next point. Also, If we are going to assumptions. Then I assume that when one comes to a site like this (and has a nick name such as Future_Salior) one has done research on the services or at least takes time out to do a little info search.

END OF POST FOR RAT!!!!

RAT OUT!!!

pomofo
27 October 2000, 17:17
RAT and Gary,

The reason I posted to begin with was that in the past few weeks I have seen so many people getting insulted or mercilessly flamed for making mistakes or voicing opinions in opposition to those held by the majority of the posters here. Normally I'd just go on and not respond but I'm just kind of fed up with the lack of decency or politeness on this board lately. For a simple little mistake futuresailor (who has been registered for all of two weeks) gets yelled at. All that had to be done was say, "FYI, Marines consider it disrespectful to be addressed without rank. I'd appreciate it if you'd either address us by rank or as Marine, etc. etc." You get your point across, the other person is more inclined to listen when you're polite, and everything is resolved with no discomfort.

That's my last post on this thread.

Gary
28 October 2000, 00:29
Not to let you get the last word. The reason I don’t use the “Gunny” is so I can say what’s on my mind and not have to worry about being PC. He came off to me as disrespectful, period. You’re border line but then again, you can call me what the heck you want.

Gunny Hicks
28 October 2000, 01:02
Gary,

You could use SFC, or Lt.

Gary
28 October 2000, 01:12
Nah, SFC is just called plain ol Sgt. and we all know a Gunny has more power than an Lt.

Gunny Hicks
28 October 2000, 02:02
Sorry, couldn't resist....I kinda' guessed what your retort would be.

Semper Fi

gcocksedge
28 October 2000, 17:09
Hmmm...

To reiterate what Rat and Gary have said, the kid has been here for some time. He is thinking about joining the Navy; perhaps he should spend less time worrying about spec ops stuff and concentrate on the basics: learning the rank structure of the Navy and the Marine Corps ( being it is part of the Navy) might be helpful to avoid this in the future. He will at some part of his service come in contact with Marines and it will be required that he address them properly, as it is for Marines who come across Navy personel.

Grace

Gary
28 October 2000, 21:54
Grace, We’re a part of the navy? Oh yea, we’re a Department on the Navy, the MEN’s Department.

gcocksedge
28 October 2000, 22:57
Originally posted by Gary:
Grace, We’re a part of the navy? Oh yea, we’re a Department on the Navy, the MEN’s Department.


Gary,

Guess, I am behind the power curve, but can you give me an explanation on this as it is over my head! I have an idea of what you may have meant, but I don't want to make an assumption and look like a complete ass.

If it is what I think you mean, I AGREE!!!!!

Thanks

Grace

[This message has been edited by gcocksedge (edited 10-28-2000).]

[This message has been edited by gcocksedge (edited 10-28-2000).]

future_sailor
29 October 2000, 02:14
I know I've improperly addressed Gunnery Hicks and took an ass chewing. But that's alright. I must learn to take a good ass chewing anyway since I'm leaving for basic by the end of this year. My attitude is if you can't take the heat, then don't join the military. Simple as that, right?

FLTCREW1
29 October 2000, 07:09
Not my place, but I just had to respond:

--------------------------------------------
Posted by future_sailor:
I guess it takes an extremely special man like Mr. Hathcock to have such a job as hunting someone down like a deer then sniping them............

My long term goal is to become a Navy SEAL.
-------------------------------------------

You may want to research your new career field.

--------------------------------------------
Posted by Toronto_Firefighter:
I read in posts all the time about people fighting for freedom. Yet twice I have openly disagreed with popular opinion and for that have been told to leave and asked to keep quiet.
-------------------------------------------

That whole "freedom of Speech" thing you're bitchin' about works both ways

-------------------------------------------
Posted by Toronto_Firefighter:
The freedom that you claim I have been given exists where?
-------------------------------------------

Not to split hairs BUT, no one gave YOU any freedoms, that's an American thing.

-------------------------------------------
Posted by Gunny Hicks:
For those who fight for our freedoms, it has a special meaning that the protected will never know
-------------------------------------------

The way I remember it was:
"For those who fight for it, Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know".

Toronto,
Here is another good phrase for you:

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
George Orwell

NSDQ



[This message has been edited by FLTCREW1 (edited 10-29-2000).]

RAT
29 October 2000, 18:01
F_S,

ME thinks you'll do just fine. Good luck on your carrier.

RAT OUT!!!

Gary
29 October 2000, 18:01
Grace,

Just a little humor for our friends in bell-bottoms.

Semper Fi.

gcocksedge
29 October 2000, 18:35
Gary,

That is what I figured.

Thanks and Semper Fi!

Grace

DFC5343
31 October 2000, 23:07
I leave for 6 days of fun in the sun in Cabo and the pcheck goes to shit.

YTDEVIL
2 November 2000, 16:13
Originally posted by future_sailor:
I know I've improperly addressed Gunnery Hicks and took an ass chewing.

WOOOOPSIE DAISIE!!!!!!!!!! Once again you adressed him incorrectly.

VMI_Marine
2 November 2000, 18:53
We can cut him a little slack, after all, he is learning, and his name is future_SAILOR, not future_MARINE.

F_S, "gunny" is short for "gunnery sergeant". GySgts are an interesting breed, they are one of the things that makes the Marine Corps unique. Some insist on being called their full rank, gunnery sergeant. Others will allow you to shorten it to gunny, depending on their disposition and your stature in their eyes. And those are your two options for addressing one, PERIOD. Hey, dealing with Marines is a learning experience for everyone, now you've got one up on most of the other Navy recruits. You can chuckle to yourself one day while one of your fellow sailors tries to extricate a highly shined combat boot from his ass for incorrectly addressing a gunny.

Semper Fi

Totenkopf
28 November 2000, 16:07
Toronto_Firefighter - F*ckin Waa Waa Waa, Did your Mama not feed you cherrios when you was a child now you are clear f*cked uP?

RogueExec
28 November 2000, 19:05
Getting back to the original question about the validity of the SBS claim, if I'm not mistaken, ST6 was around quite awhile prior to the date stated as "1982" --- late 1980, if I recall correctly. That may be your first sign of incongruence.

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"Don't think of it as theft. Think of it as creative augmentation of your operational capabilities."