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tactical
21 February 2001, 14:54
Has any work been done to establish a law against all the wannabees that claim former Military Service. If not it should be. We have it for claiming to be a cop in every state I know of.

A federal law against the fake Military guys would be a blessing and should fly through even Congress, because no one would want to openly go against it. Hell even the fakes would support it.

Just a thought that has bugged me since finding SpecialoPs.com

PIMguy
21 February 2001, 15:51
I'd be against it. Unless you got a whole lot more specific. A guy could lie about being a SEAL for a whole lot of reasons. To get a job, to trick people out of money, to impress his buddies, to get in a girls pants, etc. Some of these things deserve jail time, but do all of them? Besides, I think the legal definition of fraud addresses the serious cases.

Even if you want to ignore my silly argument above, I don't think impersonating a SEAL is as serious, legally, as impersonating a police officer (it is, however, highly immoral, unethical and an insult to the true SEALs). In everyday life a police officer has certain legal powers over us, he can arrest us, he can give us a citation for speeding, he can shoot us in the head if he feels threatened by our actions. While a SEAL has the ability to shoot us in the head, he cannot do it legally in this country (is that absolutely true? I dunno). You see my point? I'm not convinced that everyone (maybe some of em, but not everyone) who lies about prior military service should go to jail. Sure, they should be thoroughly humiliated on the internet, but not sent to jail. Most wannabes are just bullshitters, and if you want to put all bullshitters in jail you may as well put up bars around the whole country (start with DC!).

LRSC Grunt
21 February 2001, 16:13
Yes, but just to let you know it is illegal for a serviceman or even a civilian to claim false military awards. It is also illegal to forge a government document such as a DD214. I wouldnt see anything wrong in such a law. It is starting to become a serious epidemic. Not only is it just a neusance, but some fakes have been able to access LE jobs, public office, executive security jobs, ect. Shit like that can put a persons life at risk.

seahunt40
21 February 2001, 16:15
Read the book "Stolen Valor", and visit the webpages dedicated to exposing these idots and maybe you'll get the idea.

1026
21 February 2001, 17:34
You may want to look at the UCMJ, if you have access to it and a copy of the Manual for Courts-Martial. Article 134 (general article) has a provision for false pass offenses, which is normally used for fake I.D./liberty cards.

It may contain provisions for dirtbags who wear Tridents/Crabs/Airborne wings, et al, when not authorized.

I've been retired a few years, so I'm not up to speed on the latest and greatest, but the MCM is very detailed and may just have something concerning those who claim to be what they're not.

Of course, this would only apply to military members, but there are plenty of phonies in the ranks.

[This message has been edited by 1026 (edited 02-21-2001).]

Gary
21 February 2001, 17:45
These are the laws pertaining to the illegal wearing/sale/manufacture of decorations and medals, and the laws governing the illegal wearing of the uniform of the United States Military.

IF YOU ARE WEARING MEDALS YOU DON'T RATE, YOU WILL PAY!

Title 18 United States Code

Sec. 702. Uniform of the armed services and Public Health Service

Whoever, in any place within the jurisdiction of the United States or in the Canal Zone, without authority, wears the uniform, or a distinctive part thereof or anything similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of any of the armed services of the United States, Public Health Service or any auxiliary of such, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

Sec. 704. Military Medals or Decorations

(a) In General. - Whoever knowingly wears, manufactures, or sells any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the armed forces of the United States, or any of the service medals or badges awarded to the members of such forces, or the ribbon, button, or rosette of any such badge, decoration or medal, or any colorable imitation thereof, except when authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

(b) Congressional Medal of Honor. -

(1) In general. - If a decoration or medal involved in an offense under subsection (a) is a Congressional Medal of Honor, in lieu of the punishment provided in that subsection, the offender shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than one year, or both.

(2) Definitions. - (A) As used in subsection (a) with respect to a Congressional Medal of Honor, "sells" includes trades, barters, or exchanges for anything of value.

(B) As used in this subsection, "Congressional Medal of Honor" means a medal awarded under section 2741, 6241 or 8741 of Title 10.

Author's commentary:

Regarding 18 U.S.C. Sec. 702 and 704(a):

18 U.S.C. Sec. 3559(a)(7) provides that an offense having a maximum assessable term of confinement of more than 30 days and less than 6 months is a Class B misdemeanor.

18 U.S.C. Sec. 3571(b)(6) provides that the maximum fine for a Class B misdemeanor not resulting in death is $5,000 per count on which the Defendant is convicted.

Regarding 18 U.S.C. Sec. 704(b):

18 U.S.C. Sec. 3559(a)(6) provides that an offense having a maximum assessable term of confinement of more than six months and less than one year is a Class A misdemeanor.

18 U.S.C. Sec. 3571(b)(5) provides that the maximum fine for a Class A misdemeanor not resulting in death is $100,000 per count on which the Defendant is convicted.

LRSC Grunt
21 February 2001, 19:28
Sec. 702. Uniform of the armed services and Public Health Service

Whoever, in any place within the jurisdiction of the United States or in the Canal Zone, without authority, wears the uniform, or a distinctive part thereof or anything similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of any of the armed services of the United States, Public Health Service or any auxiliary of such, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both

I knew there was something out there like this. Ive seen jackass street kids fashionably wearing wearing class A jackets and shit at parties. Can I nail them for this?

TWKINC
21 February 2001, 19:47
I know I am not the smartest cookie in this box, but does this include all military uniforms?

Secondly does this mean all actors and actresses need to be locked up?

Sec. 704. Military Medals or Decorations
(a) In General. - .except when authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

Or is this what kicks in?

TRENT

E19
21 February 2001, 19:59
Originally posted by tactical:

A federal law against the fake Military guys would be a blessing and should fly through even Congress, because no one would want to openly go against it. Hell even the fakes would support it.


It would not be a blessing, it would be just another law on the books. One of the problems with the legal system in this country is we have too many laws. It is imprarctical to enforce most of the laws that are on the books, so why create more?

Are you proposing that we pay police officers to patrol the internet to track down chatroom wannabe SEALs?

Are we going require the ATF to raid the barrooms of America, and arrest the " barstool warriors " when they boast of their heroics?

Years ago a federal law was enacted that made it illegal to put leaded gas into an automobile that was "manufactured to run on unleaded fuel". If I am not mistaken, no individual was ever convicted of doing it. Devices were sold in stores to bypass the smaller opening in the filler pipe.

Looking at the Gary's post makes me wonder how many people have been arrested for wearing a jungle fatigue (BDU) jacket with insignia with a pair of jeans or to the beach.

If it's illegal to sell medals why does the US Military auctions off surplus to the higest bidder. You can go to eBay and buy almost any medal or badge you want. DSC, Silver Star, Purple Heart, EGA, CIB, ect. ect. No problem. Where do you think most of them come from?

Why put more laws on the books when we don't/can't/won't enforce the ones that are already there?



[This message has been edited by E19 (edited 02-22-2001).]

Medic21
22 February 2001, 00:57
<<If it's illegal to sell medals how come the US Military auctions off surplus to the higest bidder. You can go to eBay and buy almost any medal or badge you want. DSC, Silver Star, Purple Heart, EGA, CIB, ect. ect. No problem. Where do you think most of them come from?>>

It's a business, need I say more? There are also people who collect those things and have them on display in their offices or homes because, if mounted correctly, they look very nice. Some are really collectors.

I've also heard of people buying replacement medals that they've actually earned.

SIX
22 February 2001, 03:02
Originally posted by TWKINC:

Secondly does this mean all actors and actresses need to be locked up?

TRENT

Trent, most of the time, in the films and television, the uniform has been altered or worn incorrectly (in even the smallest degree) so that it's not actually portraying the real deal. That, plus the disclaimers all over the credits, protects the filmmakers and actors/actresses.

E19
22 February 2001, 14:19
Originally posted by SIX:
Trent, most of the time, in the films and television, the uniform has been altered or worn incorrectly (in even the smallest degree) so that it's not actually portraying the real deal. That, plus the disclaimers all over the credits, protects the filmmakers and actors/actresses.



Read the law again:

Title 18 United States Code

Sec. 702. Uniform of the armed services and Public Health Service

Whoever, in any place within the jurisdiction of the United States or in the Canal Zone, without authority, wears the uniform, or a distinctive part thereof or anything similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of any of the armed services of the United States, Public Health Service or any auxiliary of such, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

The way I read the law unless the movie company has been granted authorization...it's against the law.

The real reason for the uniforms in movies not being correct is due to ignorance.

Example: In one of the Rambo flicks the Col. (Richard Crena) was wearing the SF DUI on his
beret flash. Anyone with basic knowlege of the Army would know that is wrong. Intentional no! Ignorance yes!
The error was corrected in another Rambo.

E19
22 February 2001, 14:46
Originally posted by Medic21:
It's a business, need I say more? There are also people who collect those things and have them on display in their offices or homes because, if mounted correctly, they look very nice. Some are really collectors.

I've also heard of people buying replacement medals that they've actually earned.

You missed the point.

Here's the law:
Sec. 704. Military Medals or Decorations

(a) In General. - Whoever knowingly wears, manufactures, or sells any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the armed forces of the United States, or any of the service medals or badges awarded to the members of such forces, or the ribbon, button, or rosette of any such badge, decoration or medal, or any colorable imitation thereof, except when authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.
---------------------------------------------

Fact: The US Government "sells" their surplus medals, decorations, and badges to the higest bidder.

Comment: Many if not most of the medals being sold on eBay are govt surplus from the Gulf War sold
to Eagles of War (EOW) who resells them to the public.

Question: If it's against the law to sell sell them then why does Uncle Sam sell them.

Comment: Please, don't tell me it's legal because they authorize themselves to do it.

Comment: I am aware why most people buy the medals, badges, and ect. and I don't have a problem with that....It's the law that I question?




[This message has been edited by E19 (edited 02-22-2001).]

Medic21
22 February 2001, 16:05
Point taken. After reading your initial post I had an idea and ran with it. Whoops!

tactical
22 February 2001, 19:12
E19, and others. Look I know the laws pertaining to Fraud and wearing a uniform but the fact remains that many use the false claim of being a SEAL, Green Beenie or many others to get ahead. They border on fraud charges but for that you have to prove specific intent. If all you had to do is prove flase claims it would be a slam dunk.

The reason for the Federal law is so all states would enforce it equally.
This whole thing that we have too many laws is a cop out. If what you want is to complain or just take a chance and beat the guy you catch, becoming a suspect in a Battery case so be it.

We manage to keep the false cops from getting out of hand. Seems like the same could be done for false military guys. If the law was well known I think the number of fools claiming to be SEALs in bars would go way down.

Just my opinion

E19
22 February 2001, 19:49
Do gun laws stop criminals from carrying guns?

Do deed restrictions stop people from violating them?

Do laws stop con-men from conning the public?

Do DUI laws stop the drinks from driving after they get finnished telling their SEAL stories?

Why have laws that are selectively enforced or not enforced at all.

TWKINC
22 February 2001, 19:56
Tactical,

I understand what it is you believe in; I for one also share your point of view up to a point. Anyone who makes a false claim to be something they are not in order to get ahead in life is one sad puppy. But the law that has been clipped in this thread is really a wasted law and a waste of time. What E19 said was correct. We do have way to many laws in this country as it is. Most of these laws, next to no one know about them. Did you know that in Arizona, it is against the law to live with some one of the opposite sex for longer then six months with out being married? And yet at the same time if you live with someone of the opposite sex for twelve months you are legally married?

One more law in the books (and it looks to me there already is one) is not going to do anything about people telling lies about military service.

One last thing, in my opinion it does not matter if someone lies about being a SEAL or if they were a supply clerk in the National Guard. A lie about duty is all the same. Yet again in my opinion, anyone who lies about combat duty is in for a serious ass beating.

Just my opinion.

TRENT


[This message has been edited by TWKINC (edited 02-22-2001).]

E19
22 February 2001, 19:59
Originally posted by tactical:
This whole thing that we have too many laws is a cop out. If what you want is to complain or just take a chance and beat the guy you catch, becoming a suspect in a Battery case so be it.


Anyone who would beat a guy because he claims he is something he is not, deserves to be arrested. Same goes for a cop who beats a suspect.

Stating that we have too many laws is not a cop out it is a FACT.

tactical
23 February 2001, 10:52
E19, no law will stop all violations. Based on your logic would you say we should not have a law against murder for it is violated every day?

I work in a medium size PD with 60,000 plus calls for service a year. Not supper busy but enough that I have learned a few things over the past twenty years. One is we dont beat suspects and anyone that implies we do probably watches to much TV. You know the place that has portrayed others in uniform as baby killers when it was not true. I dont like your remark and do not care for your attitude. You are probably a hell of a guy and something has been lost in the written words, it often happens.

I expressed my opinion on the subject. Obviously others feel strongly about this or you would not have a phony check area.

Look at it this way guys I saw a problem and offered what I though to be a reasonable solution. It was not excepted as a good idea so lets move on. My ego can take it, but a camo attack on my profession is un called for. I am sure I can match scares attained while wearing my uniform with most of you.

tactical
23 February 2001, 11:57
TWKING, I just noticed you are at Bragg. When you are near SOTIC say Hi to Rick Boucher for me. Mike Miller

E19
23 February 2001, 14:43
Originally posted by tactical:
E19, no law will stop all violations. Based on your logic would you say we should not have a law against murder for it is violated every day?

Murder/homocide laws tend to be enforced.

I work in a medium size PD with 60,000 plus calls for service a year. Not supper busy but enough that I have learned a few things over the past twenty years. One is we dont beat suspects and anyone that implies we do probably watches to much TV. You know the place that has portrayed others in uniform as baby killers when it was not true.

Maybe not in Mayberry or Disneyworld, but the fact is it does happen in the realworld. There are many ex-police officers in jail for beatings and worse. Does the name Abner Louema ring a bell or pehaps Rodney King? Demolish the "Blue Wall of Silence" and the public will have more respect for policeman.

I dont like your remark and do not care for your attitude. You are probably a hell of a guy and something has been lost in the written words, it often happens.

You read something into my statement that was not there nor was ment to be implied.
I have an opinion not an attitude about the subject, but it seems you do.


I expressed my opinion on the subject. Obviously others feel strongly about this or you would not have a phony check area.

Feeling strongly about it and desiring the enactment of another law, that will not be enforced are quite different. In my opinion, public embarrassment of the individuals is quite enough.

Look at it this way guys I saw a problem and offered what I though to be a reasonable solution. It was not excepted as a good idea so lets move on. My ego can take it, but a camo attack on my profession is un called for. I am sure I can match scares attained while wearing my uniform with most of you.


[This message has been edited by E19 (edited 02-23-2001).]

tactical
23 February 2001, 15:54
E19, I still dont understand where you are coming from. You are coming across as attacking cops. Why? You say many cops in jail for beatings? Realy name me a number and then compare to the over 400,000 working in the US. Don't bad mouth the bunch for a few. Man if you have much time in uniform you know it takes all types and some bad ones get through.


How this became an attack on cops only you can explain. How you thnk you know anything of how the law is applied across the country is also only known to you, but heck why not tell all the wonderful knowledge you have. Please explain to me what I have been doing for twenty years plus as a cop and just what laws I enforce. You seem to have all the answers.

I know a few things:
1. Never attack anything I have not identified as an adversary
2. Start nice and work from there
3. Stand up for what I believe in
4. Treat folks with the respect
5. Protect others who cant protect themselves
6. Don't allow big mouths to push others around
7. Try to work differences out.

Your serve

E19
23 February 2001, 17:32
Originally posted by tactical:
E19, You are coming across as attacking cops. Why?

You say many cops in jail for beatings? Realy name me a number and then compare to the over 400,000 working in the US. Don't bad mouth the bunch for a few. Man if you have much time in uniform you know it takes all types and some bad ones get through.

You said and I quote " I have learned a few things over the past twenty years. One is we dont beat suspects and anyone that implies we do probably watches to much TV.

I never said you beat people, but it is a fact that cops are in jail for beating and worse. The "we don't beat subjects" part of your statement in simply not true when you apply it to police as a whole.

How this became an attack on cops only you can explain.

You misinterpereted my statementto be an attack on cops. It was not.

"Anyone who would beat a guy because he claims he is something he is not, deserves to be arrested. Same goes for a cop who beats a suspect.


How you thnk you know anything of how the law is applied across the country is also only known to you, but heck why not tell all the wonderful knowledge you have.

I haven't been living under a rock for the past 50+ years. I have neither the time, nor the desire to enlighten you on the subject.

Please explain to me what I have been doing for twenty years plus as a cop and just what laws I enforce. You seem to have all the answers.

You are trying to make into something personal...it is not! So count me out!

I know a few things:
1. Never attack anything I have not identified as an adversary
2. Start nice and work from there
3. Stand up for what I believe in
4. Treat folks with the respect
5. Protect others who cant protect themselves
6. Don't allow big mouths to push others around
7. Try to work differences out.

Your serve

Game, Set, Match!
[/b]

Since you seem to think that the problem of police brutality doesn't exsist or is miniscule then read this.http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/judiciary/hju62440.000/hju62440_0.HTM


[This message has been edited by E19 (edited 02-23-2001).]

tactical
23 February 2001, 18:44
Once again I guess perspective is everything, I see no answers and I would judge your response:

DOUBLE FAULT

STN
23 February 2001, 20:26
Tactical, you're beating your head on a brick wall here. 19 is never wrong. Just ask him!

Papa Smurf
22 December 2008, 04:12
These are the laws pertaining to the illegal wearing/sale/manufacture of decorations and medals, and the laws governing the illegal wearing of the uniform of the United States Military.

IF YOU ARE WEARING MEDALS YOU DON'T RATE, YOU WILL PAY!

Title 18 United States Code

Sec. 702. Uniform of the armed services and Public Health Service

Whoever, in any place within the jurisdiction of the United States or in the Canal Zone, without authority, wears the uniform, or a distinctive part thereof or anything similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of any of the armed services of the United States, Public Health Service or any auxiliary of such, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

Sec. 704. Military Medals or Decorations

(a) In General. - Whoever knowingly wears, manufactures, or sells any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the armed forces of the United States, or any of the service medals or badges awarded to the members of such forces, or the ribbon, button, or rosette of any such badge, decoration or medal, or any colorable imitation thereof, except when authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.


Anything we can do to stop pieces of shit like this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/US-NAVY-SEAL-USN-Dress-White-Choker-U-S-Naval-Uniform_W0QQitemZ170281902902QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH _DefaultDomain_0?hash=item170281902902&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A4%7C65%3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

BTW, I sent him a message through e'bay asking if he was aware of Stolen Valor, quoting part of the law in the message I sent him.

Any takers on whether I receive a reply or if this POS removes the listing?

RAT
22 December 2008, 08:29
Anything we can do to stop pieces of shit like this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/US-NAVY-SEAL-USN-Dress-White-Choker-U-S-Naval-Uniform_W0QQitemZ170281902902QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH _DefaultDomain_0?hash=item170281902902&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A4%7C65%3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

BTW, I sent him a message through e'bay asking if he was aware of Stolen Valor, quoting part of the law in the message I sent him.

Any takers on whether I receive a reply or if this POS removes the listing?

I do not see a problem with him selling this equiment. Every Army / Navy store in the USA sell this stuff.

They did put a disclaimer on the site. That is huge... That would not have been there a few yrs ago.

Plus, if you are now just going to e-mail him you are about 10yrs to late. We sent e-mails about this stuff in 1998.. FYI.

RO!!!

CAP MARINE
22 December 2008, 16:48
one word-INTENT.stolen valor act-if you give an interview to let's say to the local newspaper and you state,"i have the Navy Cross" and you dont-the SVA can kick in if the FBI will do their job and the US Atty will prosecute.the guy doesnt even have to be wearing the medal/ribbon,just state it(the old law,he couldnt be prosecuted unless he was wearing the illegal medal/ribbon)the FBI is not going to go after legit dealers or collectors.