View Full Version : Honest assesment of Spetsnaz
zallc
15 April 2011, 17:26
I just want to get some opinions on the Russian Spetsnaz guys, both in their Afghanastan days and present day. If you had to rate them or compare them to the best of our armed services special forces guys, how would they compare? Professional? Bad a$$es? Clowns? Thanks for any input.
Silverbullet
15 April 2011, 18:24
The problem is that you are asking as if it's all one unit or one organization, when in fact it is a term for special forces or more accurately special purpose forces, and also includes units which are more or less SWAT teams, not what is SOF in the US.
I don't see what the point of this question is.
Is this a writing assignment?
The Fat Guy
16 April 2011, 07:54
Is this a writing assignment?
Or were you watching reruns of The Deadliest Warriors
gavin
16 April 2011, 08:00
Or were you watching reruns of The Deadliest Warriors
Sheesh...G.G. will never live that down...lose ONE shovel-throwin' match and yer branded for life... :biggrin:
zallc
17 April 2011, 08:44
This topic was brought up on another forum and I figured I would ask the guys who might have actually worked with and against these units. I am sorry for being so vague in asking as this was the question presented to me. I guess a better question is how has Russian Special Forces changed since the fall of the Soviet Union?
Hostile0311
17 April 2011, 11:14
This topic was brought up on another forum and I figured I would ask the guys who might have actually worked with and against these units. I am sorry for being so vague in asking as this was the question presented to me. I guess a better question is how has Russian Special Forces changed since the fall of the Soviet Union?
In short, I guess they are still Special Forces, but with their own republic or country or whatever they call it. I went to Infantry Squad Leaders School with a Lithuanian or Latvian, can't remember, who said he was Special Forces. Ok dude, late 30's. Pretty professional and did ok in the course.
....this was the question presented to me....Would you then turn to the questioner and provide him with OUR answer? Doesn't seem to be real useful, either the the original questioner, or to you.
Having worked with fmr Soviet-Bloc so-called SOF, I can (will) only reply that we're better....
gavin
17 April 2011, 12:19
Having worked with fmr Soviet-Bloc so-called SOF, I can (will) only reply that we're better....
Unless it's a shovel-throwing contest, cuz the Russkies win that one every time.
justanotherj
20 April 2011, 08:32
I went to CDQC with a Latvian SOF guy. Funny dude. We called him Spetz, but he wasn't a fan of it. Apparently he loathed the Spetznaz.
Massgrunt
20 April 2011, 15:20
I went to CDQC with a Latvian SOF guy. Funny dude. We called him Spetz, but he wasn't a fan of it. Apparently he loathed the Spetznaz.
I think pretty much everyone in that part of the world loathes the Russians and hates being compared to them.
Johan
21 April 2011, 01:50
I went to CDQC with a Latvian SOF guy. Funny dude. We called him Spetz, but he wasn't a fan of it. Apparently he loathed the Spetznaz.
Read on history of Latvia, and their relationship with Soviet Russia. Read about 'Forest Brotherhood'- they fight against soviets for years after end of world war 2. Very tough men. He showed restraint, I have seen Latvian Soldiers remove teeth for less offensive remarks regarding Latvia and Soviet Union.
Regards,
GirlwithaGlock
21 April 2011, 15:24
Change since the fall of the Soviet Union? Less resources and less discipline. Overall, negative trend.
CCo275
21 April 2011, 18:10
I have trained with a couple of the guys that were former Spetsnaz guys and now they are working as "Alpha Team" guys (the general equivalent of our FBI HRT). I was impressed by their mind set and skills with the weapons that were used. I am assuming they sent their best to train with us, but I was impressed none the less. They could drink a LOT of vodka too.... go figure!
We are still better! :cool:
GirlwithaGlock
21 April 2011, 19:17
Alpha team was 40 minutes late during the hostage situation in Beslan (2004). After the operation was over their CO was coming up with poor excuses during the interviews with the press. These guys can be good but they are too sloppy.
Johan
21 April 2011, 23:24
Alpha team was 40 minutes late during the hostage situation in Beslan (2004). After the operation was over their CO was coming up with poor excuses during the interviews with the press. These guys can be good but they are too sloppy.
Alfa is 'National' asset/unit.
Where do you get this information and opinion from?
Regards,
GirlwithaGlock
22 April 2011, 09:28
@ Johan: Alpha was initially operating under KGB, now it's FSB (same folks running the show, for the most part).
The interview in question was run on one of the independent Russian TV channels (NTV, to be precise). The fact that Alpha was late for the offensive could not be held a secret because the local militia forces ended up starting operation before Alpha got to the scene.
What makes Alpha less competitive than other special ops units is piss poor, demoralizing leadership, which is typical for modern Russian military.
mdwest
22 April 2011, 10:35
So one late showing (assumed to simply be "late" based on a TV interview.. and not taking into account the millions of other legitimate factors that could have caused them to be delayed getting to the scene) equates to "less competitive" and also means that their leadership is piss poor, demoralizing, and typical of an ENTIRE military and intelligence establishment?
I fail to make the connection..
using that math... the FBI must be far less than competitive as well... afterall.. Ruby Ridge was a disaster.. Waco, TX didnt go so well for them either.. numerous media outlets reported multiple individual inadequacies, multiple leadership failures, etc..
therefore HRT sucks?
What about all the other US LEO and MIL "special ops" units that were present at Waco, acting in the role of observers, advisors, etc..
do they suck too?
i guess the hundreds upon hundreds of both training and live missions they perform every year (that dont get showcased by the media) account for nothing.. FBI HRT sucks..
you make blanket statements that cover the entire "special purpose" arm of the russian military and intelligence agencies.. that as far as I can tell are based on research at a distance... and not personal knowledge, interaction, etc.. with no personal experiences to compare them to (you are not former military special operations or major city swat cop yourself)..
who are the russians less competitive than? are we talking the US military/Law Enforcement alone? or are we looking at the entire globe? (this thread started out asking about russians v US.. but evolved into discussing latvia and other former combloc nations..)
If we are talking US... are we comparing them to Chicago PD SWAT or LAPD SWAT (two very different animals.. with VERY different levels of capability, training, and experience.. completely different standards for entry into the unit, etc..)...
or are we talking a comparrison between Alpha or say... MVD Spetsnaz (again.. two VERY DIFFERENT animals.. with two VERY DIFFERENT missions.. working for two VERY DIFFERENT organizations).. and US Army CAG or US Army Ranger Regiment (once again.. two very different animals.. with different missions...)
Or are we comparing them to.. I dont know.. Greek naval special operations.. or the Beijing SWAT team... or New Zeland SAS.. or Guatemalan Kailbiels?
I would agree with SOTB.. based on my personal experience and interaction with a handful of former spetsnaz guys.. as an overall rule I didnt find their training level or their equipment standard on par with what I have seen with their US COUNTERPART units.. but this is a very broad stroked statement.. with considerable potential for apples to oranges comparrison..
but, that said... i found them FAR superior to the Turkish "tier 1" guy I worked with.. FAR superior to Indian "special ops" guys I worked with.. FAR superior to the Indonesian "special ops" guys I worked with, etc..etc... at least as good as the chinese SF dudes I was around.. etc..etc.. when talking about training standards, mindset, and overall capabilities.. (understand that my interaction with these people was in a very specific realm, and doesnt mean they are better or worse in any other specific operational capability areas.. It was in a very linear role in which i observed and worked with these people..)
you paint with far too broad a brush..
CCo275
22 April 2011, 11:18
Excellent point Mdwest. And that is why I only spoke for the guys I trained with. They were both at Beslan and provided some pretty interesting insight that was not public knowledge. Lots of REALLY good warriors, and I can only compare those that I have trained with and compare them to my experiences. I am not real clear where Girlwithaglock is coming from with the assessment provided....
GirlwithaGlock
22 April 2011, 11:58
@ mdwest: I was comparing Alpha with their US counterparts. Clearly, I am not familiar with every special ops team on a global scale of things, so I don't claim that I can make the comparison.
Next: as far as as my knowledge goes re: Alpha's operations in Chechnya and Dagestan; the Beslan late arrival was not the only incident.
I can assure you that my statements about the morale and its impact on performance of Alpha, Russian special forces, or Russian military in general are based on my personal conversations with both active duty and vets. Also: when I said piss poor, it refered to the military leadership, not to the guys who get the work done.
@CCo275: I am not arguing that Alpha fellas have a lot of talent. But you can't tell me that the difference in morale and discipline (again, leadership problem here, not individual) between the Russian and US units does not count for anything.
....I am not familiar with every special ops team on a global scale of things....as far as as my knowledge goes....I can assure you that my statements about the morale and its impact on performance of Alpha, Russian special forces, or Russian military in general are based on my personal conversations with both active duty and vets....But you can't tell me that the difference in morale and discipline (again, leadership problem here, not individual) between the Russian and US units does not count for anything.GwaG, mdwest stated something that is fairly easy to counter or affirm -- what experience do YOU have in regards to this topic, ie -- what do you bring to the table that isn't from your talking with someone who does (or might) have the experience?
If you have no personal experience, and what you are relating is merely the regurgitation of someone else's thoughts -- then you shouldn't be offering opinions....
GirlwithaGlock
22 April 2011, 12:22
Ok, SOTB, critique taken.
poison
22 April 2011, 21:21
Who are these guys?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbG75akOvBo&feature=player_embedded
All I know is I can watch that over, and over...
Oldpogue
23 April 2011, 11:37
Who are these guys?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbG75akOvBo&feature=player_embedded
All I know is I can watch that over, and over...
Looks the the Russkies taking down a bus load of Dead Heads. No hippies allowed.
gavin
23 April 2011, 21:01
No word for "overkill" in Russian...
N2Narkosis
23 April 2011, 21:29
No word for "overkill" in Russian...
I'm still trying to figure out how in the hell the demo guy and the role players in the vic didn't come out of that with more injuries than just headaches and some tinnitus!
poison
23 April 2011, 23:16
No word for "overkill" in Russian...
Auto 7.62 is NEVER overkill. :p
Next time I try to sell coffee to a cafe, I'll toss a flash bang in the door, tuck and roll, grind/dose/pull, and when the smoke clears the only thing left will be a perfectly divine shot, perched on the rubble of what used to be their espresso station.
http://pics.galacticempire.ca/img/misc/russian_bangbus.gif
Can't...stop...looking...
ktek01
23 April 2011, 23:39
I'm still trying to figure out how in the hell the demo guy and the role players in the vic didn't come out of that with more injuries than just headaches and some tinnitus!
From another angle,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkQdhIliDWw
From the air,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1oWe9RUJ7Y
poison
24 April 2011, 00:19
I find them all equally enjoyable. :biggrin:
This is a ok video of the FSB unit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt-6E0TkHrM
This is a ok video of the FSB unit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt-6E0TkHrM
This video shows few diferent units,not only FSB.
Army ''spetsnaz'' is very diferent from the FSB and Ministry of interior units.
Most of Army units have only russian made equipment and weapons and they still use old tactics for doing their job.
FSB and MVD units have modern weapons and they are very well prepared.
On both places Russians have good operators and bad ones.......
Like everywhwere......
:)
This video shows few diferent units,not only FSB.
Army ''spetsnaz'' is very diferent from the FSB and Ministry of interior units.
Most of Army units have only russian made equipment and weapons and they still use old tactics for doing their job.
FSB and MVD units have modern weapons and they are very well prepared.
On both places Russians have good operators and bad ones.......
Like everywhwere......
:)
I have heard alot of good things about MVD from Russians of course. They are probably the most ruthless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4UuQf3j3XI
This shows how they work.
This is MVD unit,something like SWAT team.
Funny video :biggrin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4UuQf3j3XI
This shows how they work.
This is MVD unit,something like SWAT team.
Funny video :biggrin:
OMON is like their swat team. MVD is similar to our Rangers.
OMON is like their swat team. MVD is similar to our Rangers.
No,my friend.....
OMON these days is much more like unit which guarding big concerts,demonstrations,police patroling......
MVD units are SOBR-Special unit for fast response-SWAT.
They have them in every big city.
Russian Army VDV/airborne/are close to Rangers
:)
GirlwithaGlock
7 July 2011, 16:27
No,my friend.....
OMON these days is much more like unit which guarding big concerts,demonstrations,police patroling......
MVD units are SOBR-Special unit for fast response-SWAT.
They have them in every big city.
Russian Army VDV/airborne/are close to Rangers
:)
OMON is the abbreviation for the Special Purpose Police Unit. As you have correctly mentioned, they provide protective services during concerts and demonstations. Initially, OMON was formed as riot police. On occasions, they are used for combat operations in Chechnya; as far as I know even now. If you remember Kizlyar, there were a number of OMON officers captured by the Chechen fighters and then a hostage swap took place.
SOBR has been officially dissolved in 2002. Now they are labeled as OMSN - Special Police Units. Same mission, different name, basically.
OMON is the abbreviation for the Special Purpose Police Unit. As you have correctly mentioned, they provide protective services during concerts and demonstations. Initially, OMON was formed as riot police. On occasions, they are used for combat operations in Chechnya; as far as I know even now. If you remember Kizlyar, there were a number of OMON officers captured by the Chechen fighters and then a hostage swap took place.
SOBR has been officially dissolved in 2002. Now they are labeled as OMSN - Special Police Units. Same mission, different name, basically.
What about MVD?
GirlwithaGlock
8 July 2011, 08:41
MVD is the acronym for the Department of Internal Affairs. They are kind of a jack of all trades, from immigrations and transportation security to standard police duties. They can provide assistance to Border Patrol, participate in counterterrorism operations, and even do Information Security (the latest addition to their portfolio, as far as I know).
Bottom line: when you call 02 (Russian equivalent of 911), you call MVD folks. LEOs at the local police precincts are MVD employees. It's a different structure than here, in the US.
GreenMeany 5
13 July 2011, 19:28
.......
Russian Army VDV/airborne/are close to Rangers...
No expert on the Russian Military but after some quick research and reading, it sounds like the VDV is more along the lines of a U.S. Airborne Division.......
.....which is a damn far sight from being like Rangers (no offense intended towards our Airborne Brethren here)
GirlwithaGlock
13 July 2011, 20:17
No expert on the Russian Military but after some quick research and reading, it sounds like the VDV is more along the lines of a U.S. Airborne Division.......
.....which is a damn far sight from being like Rangers (no offense intended towards our Airborne Brethren here)
Correct. VDV is an abbreviation for Airborne Troops (Air-Landing Forces, to translate it literally). Not the same as Rangers.
mb5417
14 July 2011, 00:38
This is a ok video of the FSB unit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt-6E0TkHrM
Unfortunately, the bus at :42 remained intact.:tongue:
It's my understanding the Russian lack finesse as far as SOF go.
As to Spetsnaz: It's a general descriptor, rather than a specific one. Effectively: Spetsnaz = SOF. How "special" and what "operations" is entirely dependant on which Command/Agency they are formed under.
Army/GRU units tend to be the equivalent of Ranger Companies/LRRP units (from the Vietnam and Korean eras). Used to be, the presence of conscripts kept them a decade or so behind, in terms of skillset development....not sure if that's still the case. I wouldn't want to go in against them. Ditto for VDV units.
MVD/SVR/etc units? I don't know.
Aries
8 August 2011, 17:51
As to Spetsnaz: It's a general descriptor, rather than a specific one. Effectively: Spetsnaz = SOF. How "special" and what "operations" is entirely dependant on which Command/Agency they are formed under.
Army/GRU units tend to be the equivalent of Ranger Companies/LRRP units (from the Vietnam and Korean eras). Used to be, the presence of conscripts kept them a decade or so behind, in terms of skillset development....not sure if that's still the case. I wouldn't want to go in against them. Ditto for VDV units.
MVD/SVR/etc units? I don't know.
You know the Russians are a tough people, however, we must remind ourselves of one thing. Their elite units do not get the training our elite units receive. Also, I believe most of them are still conscripts which makes a significant difference. Read the book Inside the Blue Berets by Steven Zaloga. It's a little dated but it has alot of very good information in it. I would not want to confront those units you mentioned either.
Ranger5280
8 August 2011, 18:55
Wow...We're surrounded by people that think they know Russian Unit missions.
It's like being on that silly military forum where everyone posts photos.
Aries
8 August 2011, 20:00
Wow...We're surrounded by people that think they know Russian Unit missions.
It's like being on that silly military forum where everyone posts photos.
I'm basing my opinion on what I have read from supposed experts. That site is called militaryphotos.net ;)
Ranger5280
8 August 2011, 20:28
I know. We don't post that website here.
Who are your experts?
Aries
8 August 2011, 20:34
I know. We don't post that website here.
Who are your experts?
Zaloga and a guy I know who served in the Soviet Army in the mid 80s. He was shot down while on a chopper in Afghanistan. Now he is a professor here in the U.S.
Ranger5280
8 August 2011, 20:37
So, not first hand and it's a little dated.
Aries
8 August 2011, 20:39
So, not first hand and it's a little dated.
That is probably correct since they are trying to develop a professional army but it looks like they still have a ways to go.
Ranger5280
8 August 2011, 20:46
Here's how we operate at SOCNET.
If you know what you're talking about then please contribute to the conversation. If you have old, out dated information then don't post it up.
Aries
8 August 2011, 20:55
My apologies.
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