Reserve SF Groups (11th/12th)?

[Snake]

What ever happened to the 11th and 12th?
Why'd just the Reserve units get killed?

Snake II

25th ID(L)

[JOE-BOO]

don't no for sure if this is why but the
reserve axed all it's combat arms type units
not to long ago....assets were shifted
between ng and reserve

[Spotlight_Ranger]

because the regular (Federal) Army has control over the reserves, they are a national asset, and when the US Army decided to downsize SF it axed the reserve units, The guard on the other hand is an asset of the state, and answers to that state's governors, so when the US Army axed the reserves the states told them they were keeping their SF units.

[JY]

A little food for thought guys, NG units are deployable with in the US, with out violating any civil laws, for law enforcement purposes.

just somehting to think about. take care...Jim

[This message has been edited by JY (edited 10-29-1999).]

[Snake]

Jy,
I'm glad their deployable in the CONUS/etc. The Cops and Feds are starting to lose their edge over the perps. Nowadays, the criminals can (illegally) obtain better weapons and training than 90% of the LEO's.
Besides, where do you draw the line between "rioting/looting" and "Civil Insurrection". I *really* dont want to have to fight "Blue/Gray II". The fringe elements in our society are increasingly less *fringe*. I suspect in 10-15 yrs, local LEO's (City, County) Police are going to get phased out in favor of a United States Police Force, with the power to cross state lines. As it is, the Cops in Honolulu have the same armament as one of the 25th's Battalions. beat Cops are becoming SWAT cops, because the Criminals are becoming smarter/deadlier/crazyer. Sign of the times.....

Snake II

25th ID(L)

[Mr_Bill]

11th and 12th fell victim to downsizing and politics,IIRC. The JCS, and Chairman Powell in particular, were very outspoken that the reduction in the active component needed to be matched by a like reduction in the NG and Reserve forces. The arguement went that if you are going to cut the budget it can't all come out of the active force.

With the National Guard Bureau <sp?> actively, and effectively lobbying Congress a compromise was reached. The NG would get the combat arms units while USAR would assume the responsibility of support etc..

Within some circles there was some discomfort due to the fact that each NG unit is responsible to a respective governor etc. and deployment of individuals with particular skills would require his/her authorization.

My understanding is that those in 11th and 12th were given the option to A) take a lateral transfer to the NG B)pick up some support type MOS C) leave with no obligation.

Interested to hear any thoughts on the impact this has had over the years with respect to retention due to the optempo. It's just one factor but considering the history of the '100 day limit'.....

[HyenaKing]

11th and 12th army reserve became 19th and 20th national guard - same mission, different organizational unit - all combat arms went to national guard, all combat support units went to army reserve - common knowlege - do a search and you'll find some internet sites on the 19th and 20th SFG.

HyenaKing
Recon Platoon
29th ID

[Mike]

To Snake, I recommend you read Thomas Adams's book, US Special Operations Forces In Action: the challenge of unconventional warfare. (Frank Cass, 1998). Adams wrote in detail about the SF reserve and national guard. Last I heard, Thomas is the SOF chair holder at the Army War College.

To Spotlight_Ranger: The state National Guard get their money from the federal government. That is why the President can federalized them anytime. The National Guard Bureau at Army HQ actually control all the state National Guard administratively.

[Spotlight_Ranger]

Mike
I know. Read my reply carefully, I don't think I was a bit misleading about the political events that occurred when the Reserve SF went away, and the NG stayed. I am well aware of how forces are federalized, and that doesn't occur generally for downsizing. NG units can be reorganized at the request or advice of the Guard Bureau. They are, however the assets of the state. Federalization is at the direction by the NCA (I believe with the approval of congress). Otherwise there would not be a National Guard Bureau located in the DC area, however, they are still the asset of the state and that state's governor. I mean do you think they mobilize the guard through Washington for state emergencies?

[This message has been edited by Spotlight_Ranger (edited 11-03-1999).]