MOS's

[Scout]

How do SF soldiers feel about weapons specialists? Is it considered the "easy MOS", since pretty much everyone learns weapons--as Ann Simons suggests?

Does any particular MOS make better or more frequent team sergeants or warrant officers?

[LRSC Grunt]

Well im not SF but I asked an 18B thats in my unit the same question. So this is based on word of mouth. He said that when they are training the "little brown men" the 18Bs are out working their asses off in the field teaching them how to IMT, battle drills, patrolling, ambushes, ect. While the 18Ds, 18Es, and 18Cs are under the shade giving CTT classes. He also said there is a greater need for 18Ds and 18Es throughout the SF community.



[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 10-21-1999).]

[Razor]

Sure, we tease the Bs about how anyone could do their job, but its all in jest. Those guys, the GOOD Bs, know their profession better than anyone else. And it goes well beyond knowing weapons and tactics. It includes indirect fire systems (unless you're an 11C, how much experience do most guys have with mortars?), setting up ranges (an absolutely essential skill when in another country doing FID), physical security issues for installations (yup, the C can build it, but the B better know where and how to best place weapons systems and people to defend it), etc.

My B was one hard working guy, on deployments and back home in training. He was the guy arranging for ranges, doing ammo requests and draws, setting up for CAS, TGO and indirect classes, dealing with the fruitcakes at range control, and doing a host of other things that were essential to our training. He was just as important as anyone else, even if guys in the other MOSs were Ranger qual'ed and he wasn't, or that other guys were SOTIC and he wasn't; all that didn't matter, as we all shared our knowledge.

As for your Tm Sgt question, it doesn't really matter. Mine was a former B and a great Tm Sgt. Acros the hall, the Team Daddy was a former D and very good as well. My warrant was a former C, another was a former B, and I knew several former Ds that are now warrants. It depends on the person, not the MOS.

[Spotlight_Ranger]

Razor's right on the mark (as usual). First there is plenty of cross training on any A-team. If the A-team isn't cross training, they are wrong. Experienced guys need to mentor novices, (I say that with no rank involved, quite a few times the guy with the experience isn't the senior rank). he team sergeant mentors all of them to be team sergeants. That is truly the play of force multiplication, he makes other team sergeants out of his team. When we were teaching Mortars on a Balikatan, every MOS but an 18B was supervising Crew drills, and on a gun. The 18B was supervising the FDC. An 18C was on the M2 aiming circle. Nobody has time to sit on their butt during training, especially on a MTT or JCET. Experience comes in all forms, at all times, and everyone needs it.

[Scout]

Thanks for the info. I left ROTC to enlist with 20th SFG(A). I haven't been to IET yet, let alone SFAS, but I'm interested in weapons or engineer. Eventually, I hope to be a warrant officer.

[JOE-BOO]

smart move scout...11zulu

[Scout]

Why's that, LT?

[Scout]

I'm curious aoubt your earlier statement, LT.
Why do you say its a smart move for me to leave ROTC for SF?

[JOE-BOO]

That was a decsion that I wrestled with myself about this time last year...mine however did not involve NG SF however...I honestly considered resigning my commission and enlisting into the 75th and later leaving to SF as hopefully an engineer type and then on to WO....However, if you turn down your commision late in your ROTC hitch they will f*&k you royaly by making you a private non-promotable....that is the wrong answer...At 25/26 I will be damned if I will pull stupid details with no chance of moving up to a position that better suits my abilities

Not that being an O is all that bad, but it is very cheesey...being surrounded by the pressure of people succumbed to OER syndrom. Perhaps it will get better, seeing as how hey ae hurting so bad right now that instead of 4 years to CPT it is now 3....That means I can do thingsthe right way without all the political crap and stand a chance to stay in long enough to make this personally rewarding for myself and the men I lead.

Your desision could prove to be a sound one...
1.NG SF will send you to all the Hooah schools you want to go to.
2. If you were an officer you could go back to being a SGT. if you wanted to get away from the computr once in a while....
3. Your home stays the same.
4. You can work as little or as much as you want....
5. The army red tape does not surround the NG as bad, and definately does not surround the NG SF.
6. You get paid more than your Active counterparts when you are on active duty.
7. Everything is TDY
8. Not many budget constraints...or O-5 approval for training.
9. You can have another job, which means that when you are training....you are doing just that...
10. You could be full time active with optempo they have...

Guess where I'll be in 2 1/2 more years....

[Scout]

LT,

Thanks for your reply. I suspected that after our last encounter you felt I would not make a good officer and would be better off as enlisted. I'm glad I was wrong.

I do believe that I forgot to mention that after i finish my degree, i will probably try to go active duty SF (assuming of course, I earn the tab). It wasn't an easy decision, but SF has always been my goal, and I want to spend more than 18-24 months on an A-team.
Also, I don't really want to spend 2/3 of my career in staff and school assignments.
At 22, I'm still young enough to have a few options, I could even still get my commission after a few years on a team if I change my mind.

[JOE-BOO]

hey not a problem...if an O can't handle someone disagreeing with him he should get out of the military and go to the civilian sector of government work....I did not have a problem with your thoughts as much as your tone in general...that kind of thing puts O's between a rock and a hard place...free thoughts and expressions vs. military customs and courtsies....

I would honestly do the same thing you are doing now if I could...maybe I still can...keep me informed throuout your process, if you don't mind

[Scout]

Good to hear from you LT. Maybe you shouldn't give up the O route. Stay in and make a difference. Yeah, I know the deck is stacked against you. You have to be a general make any kind of changes, buty ou have to be too political to make general. Only a major war would bring great leaders to the top.

Have you managed to break free of the Benning School for Wayward Boys yet, sir? Are you planning on going SF sometime?

Scout

[Snake]

Lt.,
You gonna try to go Light Infantry or Mech Pig? Trust me, just say No to Tracks.
Besides, Light Fighters get all the best Posts. They told you where your going yet?

Snake II
25th ID(L), on sunny Oahu.......heh heh.

[Kolt]

I kinda resent that Mech comment. Nothing personal, but in general some of us went in 11X and got stuck with it. Namely me. I wanted 11B, but got stuck as an 11M. I don't really agree with the 'Why walk when you can ride' philosophy, but we just got done training with the 101st last month at JRTC and they were really impressed with what Mech brought to the battle field, even in the restrictive terrain of Polk. The liked it so much that now we are setting up joint training with them, both here and Kentucky. More field time, great move on our part impressing them. But, there's nothing like a 25mm going off for suppression and direct fire when you need it. And about the post comment, Fort Carson is a beautiful place to be right now. No comment on the next few months though.

[JOE-BOO]

I am going to the 101....YEAH!!!!
My knee is feeling much better and I can run on it now, though it feels goofy, but it does not really hurt...Yeah!!
I will rejoin IOBC at the 1/2 point in about two weeks...YEAH!!!
Then I will serve my time and if all goes as planned I will move on to SF...either acive or NG....If I go NG I will probably resign my commision and move in as a junior NCO...still a few years away though...I came for the fight and the adventure and powerpoint ain't either...

[Snake]

Kolt,
Wasnt dogging the 11M Grunts. I was commenting on the situation they find themselves in. The Bradley is a deathtrap, period. Not quite a tank, but it *looks* like one. Just wait till you go up against someone with modern ATGM's.....
Me, I'm 11B ("We hide, with Pride"). Sure, we dont have *quite* the offensive punch that Mech does, but just try to pry us out of a Jungle/mountain/City/non-permissive terrain.
And their gonna give us more TOW's soon, so that will help us WRT AT. Fact is, Armor vs.
Light Troops in a built up/non-permissive area is a win for the Grunts. On the other hand, a Grunt out on the frigging plains is a suicide trooper.....
One thing Mech does have, is open-country mobility (i.e. Desert Sabre). IF the Air Force can learn how to tell Bradleys from BMP's.....

Snake II
25th ID(L)

[LRSC Grunt]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....What the hell are you chearing for LT? Ft. Campbell??? Ever felt the green weenie??? Your gonna love the godamn dog and pony show. Dont get me wrong though it still is a DAMN GOOD division.

The revised version to the Screaming Eagle Division Song.


We have a rondevous with misery
our passes and donsas have been revoked
and we will never be set free.

Assault from trucks because we cant get birds
and you know that well never leave the ground.

With officers and dickheads leading the way
you know that well never be found.

TRUCK ASSAULT!!!!!!!

Spc. Gorman
101rst Abn Div. (Air Assault)
7/96-4/99
TS Air Assault School
class 18-97


[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 10-27-1999).]

[Razor]

Actually, Snake, employed properly (i.e. as a means of protected transpo for the dismounts and a hell of a spting fire platform) the Bradley is far from a deathtrap; rather, its a light fighter's worst nightmare incarnate. Once a commander realizes a Brad is not a mini tank and abandons any notion of light cavalry charges, he's on the road to success, even in a MOUT environment. Our sister bn did several experiments with mech infantry in MOUT in Hammelburg MOUT facility, Hammelburg, Germany. They verified and created several good TTPs, which used the Brads as spt fire outside the city, optimizing optics, fire control and heavy weapons until a foothold was established for covered entry by the vehicles. I'm sure if you look you'll find plenty of light infantry guys from WWII more than happy to explain how much they feared Tigers and armored cars during city fighting.

As for a lt unit not having "quite" the firepower of a mech unit, I don't believe 'quite' was the proper adjective here. A mech plt has more firepower than an entire lt company. It has (standard configuration) four 25mm cannons with 1200 uploaded rounds (AP/HE mix) and however many more you can stow, 4 mounted M240Cs with 3200 rounds uploaded and superior optics and fire control/stability to anything a lt guy can stick on top of his 240B or G, 20 (28 max) available TOWs (8 uploaded), 8 M47s (now probably Javs), 32 WP grenades (You don't think those are dangerous close in? Ever been forward of a Brad when they go off?), 18 screaming hoo-ahs with all the tools of death and destruction common to an infantry guy, more radios than you'd ever care to maintain, the ability to carry all kinds of crap--including LOTS of Class IV, superior optics, and shock effect like a MF. In light of that, I'd say a mech unit has a distinct advantage over a lt unit in firepower. I believe the Germans discovered this advantage back in the late 20s and early 30s and found it useful in conquering a significant portion of Europe.

[Tracy]

I learned in Infantry ANCOC 15 years ago that the only thing worse than ambushing a platoon of Abrams was to ambush a platoon of Bradleys. That's like kicking over a bee hive.

The best MOUT configuration I've used is a 20-40-40 mix of Armor-Mech-Light. You use the Panzers for forced entry and breaching. The Bradleys are transport and security. The Lights go into the building and flush the nastys out for the Brads and Abrams.

Here's some tips:

1. Have the Panzers carry extra powder charges without the rounds. They can use the 'blanks' to clear rooms; they roll up and aim it through a window or door and squeeze the trigger. It usually clears several rooms at once...

2. ALWAYS carry climbing ropes and ladders. Many defenders will boobytrap or defend the bottom floor and leave the upper ones for the snipers. Use the Bradleys to get into 2d Floors and roofs; then clear down.

3. Rule One of Raids: 50% of the force pulls security. This prevents reinforcement and escape from the objective. Bradleys and Abrams are great for this. Try to plan the raid so the bad guys have an 'out'; then cover the escape route with Security.

This may make the baddies retreat instead of pulling an Alamo; and they retreat from their prepared positions into your death ground. If you think security detail is boring, remember that all the TF Ranger casualties were in the security and transport elements, not the assault.

4. Grenades, lots of them.

5. M-240 will work indoors; so do M-203s. We used to back off 15-20 meters and use the HEDP rounds on doors and windows. Bring shotguns to breach interior doors. Put the barrel against the deadbolt and fire. P.S. there some fragmentation ;o)

6. In an urban situation, there's a gozillion people living there. The enemy can mass 4000-5000 people on your site in ten minutes or less. So don't screw around; your actions on the object must be short, sweet and simple.

7. Rome Plows. Get some boat anchor chains and hook both ends to Panzers. Then the tanks drive on either side of light duty buildings and pull the chain. No more building.

8. If you have some Sappers, get some 500 lb MK 82 'dumb' bombs from the Air Force. Fight your way into the base of big buildings, prime the bombs with a universal destructor and boogie. Jericho reborn.

Just some thoughts....

tracy.**********@60mdg.travis.af.mil

[Scout]

congratulations on 101st, LT. A damn fine
unit. Good luck with yout plan. I've heard of
captains resigning their commissions after serving their team time, then coming in as an E-6 so they can get warrants. You might want to think about that. Enlisted SF who get commissions and come back to SF don't have to go through SFAS again, it probably works the same for SF officers who come back as NCOs

[Snake]

Razor,
your correct, of course. The Brads *do* carry considerably more firepower than the equivalent LI formation. However, the trick is, dont go "force-on-force" against them. Light-Fighters defeat Mech Forces by being sneaky, underhanded bastards. We go where the Brads cant (Jungle, Mountain) and fight where *we* want to. And, your comparison to the WWII Tiger vs. Grunt fights was faulty.
Modern battlefield tech. gives the Infantryman the ability to kill just about any armored vehicle ever made. The WWII Infantry didnt have that capability.
Now, dont get me wrong. I am *not* saying, "Mech sucks and we dont need em". The fact is, Mech forces are vital to our future victory on the battlefield. But, the individual battlefield belongs to the *specialist* in that environment. Light Fighters dont go out into the Plains if we have any choice in the matter. Likewise, Mech tries to stay out of the Jungle. If The Enemy steps into our Jungle, the 25th'll cut their heads off. But if we go tooling around in the Desert, where the Other Guy is Mechanized, we're dead.


Snake II
25th ID(L)

[SOTICgrad]

Looks like your post was pretty much answered. However, don't take too much that Anna Simons says as gospel. She took what she WANTED TO HEAR and put it down in print. Some stuff in her book is correct, but the majority is severly slanted.