SEAL role models . . .

[SpecOpNightfall]

Many young people who wish to become Navy SEALs look at Richard Marcinko and say 'Wow, he's so cool, I wanna be like him!'. Now I've read his books, and for the most part (other than Rogue Warrior), they don't seem to me to be exactly what prospective tadpoles should be modeling themselves after if they truly want a career in operations. I really think that some people with experience (or not) should put this one to rest right now and let us know whether we should be going by the laws of Marcinko, or not. (I'm placing my bet on the second one)

[norm]

Personally, I think Marcinko isn't all that bad. He was a really innovative operator, and had a reputation for getting the job done more successfully than most. I mean, he supposedly only lost 1 of his men in combat during his career. I've read some of his books, and he does seem to emphasize several good SOF-type characteristics: Unit integrity, training "balls-to-the-wall," hard work, protecting the weak, etc. Now, I am NOT in SOF or the military (I am AROTC), but this is what I believe. There are some things which I don't think prospective tadpoles shouldn't necessarily model themselves after, like being a "dirtbag," having an overly aggressive (ie Criminal) type personality, intentionally not conforming just to be a bad-ass, etc. However, I would like to hear what others on the forum, especially the operators would like to say, as would SpecOpNightfall. Thanks.

norm

[josepy]

Marcinko's ideals and philosophies are what SPECOPs are supposed to be. However, todays political military would never tolerate a "Rogue" in command. Dick experienced this late in his career.

I personally can attest that Dick is the real deal. His leadership principals can help anyone in any business.

[pn]

Don't model yourself after anyone. Most people have already developed a distinct personality by the time they enter service, and it's easy as hell to spot an ass-kissing, imitative sycophant. Of course, if you go in and find out that you're a shitbag or that no one likes your personality, it may behoove you to adopt the "quiet guy" persona.

-pn

[SolidStrike]

Yeah, I'm glad someone brought up this topic. I read Rouge Warrior recently, and though Dick was a really f'n hardass. I mean, he accomplished ALOT in his career, and he didn't have much to start from. He got himself up to where he ended. BUT, his rougish, 10-curses per sentence, prostitute screwing, beer guzzling-ness kind of screwed himself over. I mean, I really, seriously, admire him. He was awesome in Vietnam, he was very smart in a military sense, and he created SEAL team 6. He was incredible. But I found it tasteless the way he did things.

I look more to Stew Smith as an example.

[Mike]

MArcinko's problems was that he was an alcoholism. Alcoholics are not my heroes.
I read an article in Soldier of Fortune that Marcinko exxagerated what he did in Vietnam.

[Nissan]

Well When ya talk about Dick Marcinko its a double edged sword yeah he did great things and he did not so great things. Everyone has a different opinion about how he did things and what happened to him. I loved his 1st book and his Real Team book. His others I thought were ok as a action read type. When ya say role model sometimes you need to look not only at the SEALs that are known but how bout that little scrawny 1st phase guy whos not #1 in class but is #35 and struggling his entire way through...but he's not quitting. The one who works hardest for what hes got will be the one who works and fights the hardest to keep what he earned. That is the guy who I admire.

[norm]

Nissan,

I've read a few of Marcinko's books, and he often emphasizes the fact that he would rather have the guy who struggles and finishes last but w/ 100% and then some, rather than the "gazelle" who breezes through training to the top place in his class. However, I do think that Marcinko looked to criminal traits too much to select his operators. He seemed to only want the face-breaking, larcenous type. Maybe that's why ST6 grew so 'notorious' in Little Creek?, VA during Marcinko's reign (80'-83').

[Frog]

Guys, please don't base anything you read in the rouge warrior books on what Dick is really like. They are just novels, they make money for him. The role models are the quiet professionals that never seek the fame and glory. Yeah, Dick did a great job giving the US and the Navy a capability that we needed and he was contoversial.
So what. There were a lot of other things that happened that never got press that were just as notable. That's history now. It wasn't too long ago that people didn't even know what a SEAL was. Now we have books, movies, and even a SEAL/JAG Admiral on TV. What you seek is hard to find. Don't want to discourage anyone, but don't put your chips all on one square. Read his book, The Real Team. There he gives credit to the guys who were with him, like Mike Purdy whom you've probably never heard about. The real answer is the TEAM. Underwater Demolition "TEAM" - SEAL "TEAM". It is the people, not the individuals, that make us what we are.

[This message has been edited by Frog (edited 02-13-2000).]

[RKW]

I agree with Nissan, I want to look up to the guy who never quit. A lot of society is based around that kind of story, look at the tortaise and the hare. If I should follow a role model, let it be that guy.

RKW

[josepy]

<MArcinko's problems was that he was an alcoholism. Alcoholics are not my heroes.
I read an article in Soldier of Fortune that Marcinko exxagerated what he did in Vietnam.


Really and this information is based on what exactly?


BTW He does not write the books, the other guy does.

[SpecOpNightfall]

I think we all hit it on the head. Marcinko writes his books to make money. However, if he was a drinker, prositute screwer, etc, then I may not look up to him as a person, but I will as a warrior. He has some of the best ideas about war in modern times, and he is the type of warrior our Navy, indeed the whole military, needs right now. And about SEALs becoming more public, I hate it. A few years ago I was the only one working towards being a SEAL at my school. Now every one with two legs wants to swim the oceans with an MP5. It isn't a quite and unknown profession now. It may still be elite, but wanting to be one doesn't make you different anymore. It seems that a lot of SEALs are using their profession to make money now by selling videos, books, even action figures. While that may be their right, it seems to take some of the honor out of it. For me, I would rather fade into the background when my duty is done, and live in the shadows. But that is just me and I still have more respect for the operators then ever.

[Mike]

Now Marcinko make money training SWAT teams since where else can they go?
I like that SEALs are going public. With the Navy recruitment problems, where can SEALs recruit from if the pool of Navy personnel swindles down?

[SpecOpsPlanner]

To balance out this discussion of Richard Marchinko read "Combat Swimmer" by Bob Gormely and "SEAL" by Mike Walsh.

[Nissan]

Well by reading this I can understand how some of you think SEALs are going and getting publicized more and that couses problems. But it also depends on what you want. I know for a fact that alot of people want to be SEALs in my school "Oh yeah I'm gonna go for SEALs after I graduate" etc etc...a majority of those are BS...its not about what someone says they want to do..it matters what they work hard for a earn.
Frog I agree with you 100%..I personally think Real Team was his best book out of the seris. The true stories about teh teams are always more interesting then the false ones no matter how outragous. But the Teams also need to get publicity not to make the Teams popular..but to make themselves known...if noone knows ya you get very little recruits...the PJs and CCTs are perfect examples of this. Its give and take teh entire way..whether you like it or not..it needs to be done..like Marcinko said..."don't have to like it ya ust have to do it..."

[nightinsertion]

The publicity may be good for the navy recruiters, but for everyone else I dont know. I know a lot of Army and Navy guys who got pulled in by the glamour of those commercials and ended up serving chow and standing gate guard in Iceland, because their recruiters failed to mention that they didn't exactly qualify or that getting this MOS would get you there faster. Alot of the guys in BUD/S were from the fleet, that I saw. As far as the CCT and PJ's a lot of their candidates also come from the AD pool I believe, besides they dont get a lot of press because of their mission it seems.

[boomer]

As for your comments regarding Capt. Marcinko,you really shouldn't slag people you don't know. Pretty tough talk for someone who read a f*****g book and thinks they can pass judgement. And who said "WAS probably a good leader. IS son, check your head for parts. If you knew what really goes on in SOCOM you should talk to the man yourself. He just got back home last week, I believe. Got the nads, then tell him yourself. No disrespect intended, just that we can all be Monday Morning Quartebacks but try stepping into that man's shoes. Pretty hard footsteps to follow in.
Boomer

[SpecOpNightfall]

Damned if I won't step into his shoes oneday, and I'll be damned if I don't try to make them one size bigger to fill then he did when I'm gone.

[6264]

Please don't anyone take this wrong but Old Demo Dick is a legend but is all on stuff that twenty years old or more Live in the here and now He grew out of WAR and its horrors Warfare today is a completly different Beast He's a man that dishonored his command and was thrown in jail resect him yes I do think he's a hero no I don't he lost that. Don't put you trust into icons Put it into yourself and your teammates

My 2 cents
Be safe 6264

[Nissan]

SpecOp I think your making a damn big assumption by what you just said. I don't care what anyone says nothing is definete or "damned if I won't"..I don't care if you call yourself a gonnabe or say you WILL make it through training...10 bucks says that every single person that reports into Coronado says they will complete the training...and stepping into those shoes is damn near impossible...being chosen to start a team for that kind of mission or any new mission they might pick up requires so many factors its unimaginable..you gotta be at teh right place at teh right time and with the right capabilities to name a few...Instead of trying to do that you should concentrate on just getting in then concentrate on getting better...not planning on taking over where Marcinko left off but to just become the best you can...remember..SpecWar is always evolving..if you can read whats happening and look to the future and say "This looks like its gonna happen and these are capabilities we don't have but will need for this upcoming time..." Then you can fomulate a plan and work it out..but remember that skinny little bastard Murphy will follow you everywhere...this is true everywhere...look at Bill Gates and most of teh big internet and computer folks...this is what they did and it worked...Kaufman, Fane(especially), Boehm and Marcinko all looked ahead and said we need someone to clear the beaches...we need to get involved with SCUBA and underwater warfare...we need to expand our capacities to teh land...we need someone to handle terrorism with a Maritime twist...Think about it

[boomer]

Good luck bro I hope you make it. And kudos to the comment about your teamates. Too right. We can talk all day long about " back in the old days...." but fact of the matter remains: DEVGRP is a different world these days. Anyway buddy, you've done 99% more than most you've accepted the challange of trying to complete the toughest training the US Military has to offer bar none. Again, remember what your man said about "teamates"
Good Luck,
Boomer

[JSOCMarine]

Boomer,
For some reason I cannot pull the individual profiles up from the website. I was wondering what your background was/is? Are you a SEAL, Ranger,etc? Just curious, that's all. Semper Fi.

[nightinsertion]

I dont see anything wrong if a kid wants to go in and take everything by the balls and run with it. You gotta have that type of attitude. Just so long as its not hot air, and he's not some fat loser sittin behind his computer. Of course every guy walks into Coronado saying his gonna make it all the way through. What type of loser goes there and says" eh, I wont make it or maybe just through indoc." It's all what's really inside of you once you're too tired to do all the big talking.

[bioman]

Hey Nissan,
I got a bad role model for you(GREMLINS)

p.s. At least we survived

[Nissan]

Night..yes that is true..but read the entire string..the way things were written..now I'm no genius but I can tell when someone steps over the line...I've done it and gotten smacked back down for it...Its the way things go for everything and everyone and that comment was over the line. As for the grab teh balls and run with it yeah thats great..but can you do it?? I don't beleive anything I hear online till I see it in teh flesh and I don't expect people to believe my PT scores or times or whatever I say...if someone questions my info or whatever fine..you can say "i think your lying" but it doesn't matter as long as you know your capabilities in your heart and soul other opinions don't count...And for the everyone saying "Yeah I'm gonna make it"...then look at the numbers of people who drop out..staggering..if everyone says they are gonna make it do then why is it 70% don't make it?? noone knows who's lying or when their quitting till Training begins...so like you said...once the action starts and people stop talking the test begins..if they let people become SEALs cause they can talk the talk I know a shit load of fakes and posers that would be wearing a Trident right now...

Survival is the important part...having a role model just lets you have 1 more goal..wanting to be like that person...

[SpecOpNightfall]

Nissan, I'm not sure you're clear on what I meant. I don't want to make my own team, like Marcinko did (unless the need is found, which I doubt). I want to do the OTHER thing that Marcinko, which is raise the bar on what it means to be a SEAL. I don't just wanna be a SEAL, I want to recreate what people expect from SEALs to a higher level. Is that a LOT to expect? Yes. Does that mean I'm not going to try? No. Will I succeed? Keep watching. :-)

[Nissan]

Well if I didn't get what your saying up there then I still don't get it...raising the bar for the next person or whatever happens every single day...it happens at everything...today I did some PT with some JROTC cadets...well I raised the bar for them...on Monday the bar will be raised higher yet again...and Tuesday yet again..not nesscerily physicaly..but just to become better cadets and students...and I'm sure it happens everywhere even in teh SEAL Teams...it might be who can shoot the best or who can do whatever the fastest and furthest and I'm sure it happens the same way all over the world...am I making sense here or I am just rambling on?

[nightinsertion]

Nissan,
Looker here guy. You better get off that number kick you got. You keep talking about everyone else not making it. If or when you get to BUD/S and you become a member of your 70% club(which according to the numbers you will), you'll wish you hadn't shot down people on this forum. You cant ramble on and tell someone that they cant strive to be all they can be. Your pt scores dont mean a damn.(Didn't know one stud that made it past 2wks of 1st phase) If anything it means you'll be gone faster. To me as long as someone gets there in decent shape, the rest of the way is in your head. This guy knows if he's b.s.er or not. Not you.
This kid probably is just a little too vocal with his hopes and aspirations

P.S. Have you made it? Then your a talker too, anyway you look at it.

[Nissan]

No Night I havn't made it...and I don't know if I'll be 1 of those 70% that drop out...Hell I might not have what it takes..But until I go and try I won't know and neither will anyone else...Where did I say someone can't strive to be all they wanna be??...but I get pissed when someone goes and says "I'm a gonnabe not a wannabe I guarentee I'll make it" or how they are gonna go and be better then the person before them...noone knows for sure till they get there...thats the point I'm trying to make...As for teh PT scores your absolutely correct it doesn't matter...and like the context I used it in..It doesn't matter what anyone says till they do it and also that the bar gets raised everyday..I didn't say that it had to be about PT either..I was talking about how everything improves and gets harder everyday..not just every once and a while when someone comes along and rocks the boat like Marcinko...but anyway I'm done...I'm not replying anymore to this string cause I think its becoming more of a pissing contest then anything else...

[bioman]

On March 29 at 8:00pm and 11:00pm on the discovery channel there is a special on Navy SEALs . I'm sure most of u have seen it before, but I'm just letting you know in case you want to watch it again . Also on ; March 25 at 10pm and 2am on the history channel "suicide missions" Army Rangers .
While I'm at it here is another one;
discovery channel is showing (PJ's)Pararescue on April 5 at 8pm .

[This message has been edited by bioman (edited 03-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by bioman (edited 03-19-2000).]