War on Terrorism/ Racial Profiling

[mdb23]

I have read many articles which discuss the reluctance/refusal of many departments to participate in the federal "round up" of alleged terrorists.

The departments have stated that the roundup is in direct conflict with the racial profiling laws that have been passed in their respective states. The departments are afraid that participating in said roundup would leave them exposed to numerous lawsuits regarding the violation of the racial profiling statutes.

I knew those things would bite us in the ass somehow.

Any opinions?

mdb23

[USMCSNIPERONE]

I consider it "Criminal Profiling" not racial.

[murphquake]

no one is responsible for the color of their skin, nation of origin or feelings. telling someone else to do something wrong is a tough call all persons are responsible for their actions.

I was born on a bridge: ok
go jump off a bridge: you're an idiot for listening, free charlie manson
i feel like jumping off a bridge: ok
aaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiieieeeeee SPLASHCRACK!: what a fucking moron

I still haven't seen any real proof that anyone except the people who may or may not have hijacked the planes that crashed into the pentagon, WTC and PA actually did it. Even when the "black boxes" are recovered if they are able to be used what's keeping the government or the people who do the work from lying about what they hear? I don't speak arabic, how do I know those subtitles and translations are really what OBL said? Do I believe that any of that is happening? Not really, but I haven't ruled it out. Perhaps the MJ12 and the Illuminati and Hitler's mother's ghost are just mad at afghanistan. I've said it before: the way to change the world is to make them want to be like us. Why have we stagnated at 50 States for over 40 years? We should offer open membership to our club to all people and nations, but you have to follow our rules. If we tried we could have the united states of the planet earth all living under the US Constitution in the course of a century. Of course we would have to scrap all the stupid laws against mala prohibida, It would be real simple: just take every law we have and check to see if everyone in the world follows it: if they do then we don't need it cause it must be human nature, if they dont then get rid of it so we dont piss them off. Then we have to work real hard to figure out if there is anything that can be done to stop mala in se other than exterminating the adults who commit such acts (children may be spared, unless we can be sure they will repeat their acts when they know right from wrong.) If we eradicate tyranny in our own land others will rise up to join us. We hear the term rise up and think bad things because we forget that it was only by rising up agains king george that we have elevated (and regressed, sady) ourselves to our current level. Sadly freedom must be bought with the blood of brave men but I'd call that a bargain, the best I ever had. Capice? Or are you two (no offence meant, as at least Tom knows, I like yas) content to continue to let oppression reign?
-bill: libertarian and The Who fan extrordinaire
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."--Thomas Jefferson

[grrlcop74]

I did a paper a couple of semesters ago on why "racial profiling" is a BS term made up to label and stick a bandaid on a deeper problem. If a cop (or anyone for that matter) is picking on someone strictly because of their skin color, they are not profiling, they're being a racist and it needs to be dealt with as such. It's just another term the uninformed/misinformed public has stuck on something that they don't understand. Plus it makes good press for the Jesse Jacksons of the world. I could type out my entire paper here, I suppose, but I doubt anybody would give a flying rat's ass LOL.

Kristen

[Rheanna]

I wouldn't want to be around during the century we made statehood of other nations.

The fall of the Roman Empire points to several sticky areas that US would still today fall victim to in trying to manage that.

The Roman Empire conquered as opposed to open membership, but in each area they controlled, they had to put a representative government in place. Because those government representatives were so far from home, corruption was rampant. The issue of taxes alone would be horrendous to try and manage - didn't work for the Romans either.

Furthermore, the Empire was forced to strangle and eliminate cultural and religious practices that were inconsistent with their social agenda. Again, corruption was rampant. Can you imagine a country like Somolia becoming a state? What some African nations consider to be a badge of honor for their females in having their genetalia disfigured we would call mutilation.

Overall...bad idea for my .02

[Rheanna]

Sorry -

[XXNavy]

We had a case here in Tennessee, awhile back where the Police/Highway Patrol had a "sting" going on.
Basically, here in Knoxville, there are two major interstates, I-40 and I-75, that intersect here. There are a lot of drugs going thru here, needless to say, so they set up operations to catch some of them. But how do you know who to pull over? Two eighteen year old black kids, driving a brand new BMW? One seventy year old white male truck driver? It isn't an easy choice, unless you use common sense. But common sense to a white cop, and common sense to a black cop may be two different things. You can tell the public the truth, as you see it, "It just looked wrong to me", but someone, somewhere is going to accuse you of racial profiling.
No easy answers here. After 9-11-01, it's easy to say "There's a Muslim, better be careful", but kicking one off a plane, just because he made the pilot "nervous" just doesn't get it.
I guess there really isn't a point here, just a thought...

[grrlcop74]

Your post just confirms what I stated about public misperceptions, XXNavy. You don't pull over the black kids or the white trucker if that's all the info you have. There's alot more to it than that. And it has been my experience that black and white cops pretty much see things the same way--it's the black and white civilians that have different views of the same event. If there is intelligence indicating the trucker could be hauling dope, or he meets further criteria, both the black and white cop are going to pull him over. If there is intelligence indicating the black kids in the BMW are hauling, both the black and white cop are going to pull them over. And you don't pull somebody over just because something "looked wrong", you use that instinct to develop the case further until you have probable cause (or at least create it LOL) to effect a stop.

Kristen

[wolfhound227]

This is what I saw back in March of 2001.

Tell me if I'm being hysterically racist.

I had stopped into the local Army surplus place to pick up a black watch cap and look for goodies. The store is housed in a WWII quansit hut along Highway 1 and the parking area is a dirt strip that runs in front. As I pull in, the strip is blocked by a Lexus. I'm briefly stuck there because I can't back up to swing around so after maybe three minutes this Egyption looking asshole comes out and makes for the car to the right of the Lexus, a red, upscale Toyota. This guy yell at me to move my truck because I'm blocking him in. By now traffic had cleared and I backed away. As I'm doing this a second Arab guy comes out and gets into the Lexus, shouting something to the Egyption guy as he does. Both men pull up farther down the strip and exit their cars and head back in as I park.
Now, it's not so strange to see nice cars in the parking lot of this place these days because they sell paintball gear so they get a lot of upscale traffic. It's usually kids with their mothers though. The rest of the time it's some X-Navy guy from Pebble Beach getting a new flag.
I go and make my way to where they keep the hats and I see the two individuals at the knife counter. One guy has the clerk pull out a number of collapsable type knives. The other guy heads to the back where he joins two more Arab types who are checking out the paint ball stuff. I didn't catch most of the conversation but they were interested in CQB. These guys were well dressed and looked as out of place as Donald Trump at a WWF Smack Down event.

Now, this seemed weird back in March, only because the guy stood out. But today it bothers me even more. At the time I thought that they might be friends with the local Iraqis in our small town but they are poor or working class. These guys seemed to be "College Boys".

Am I bothered because I'm a racist?

[mdb23]

Originally posted by wolfhound227

Am I bothered because I'm a racist?

I think that you are the only one who can answer that.

Let's suppose, however, that the exact same scenario ocurred (same cars, same location, same conversations, shopping for the same items), only the people in question were white. Would that stand out as suspicious? If not, then the only thing that made the scenario suspicious was the nationality of the individuals.

mdb23

[grrlcop74]

What mdb said.

Kristen

[Trigger1]

First Kristen, e-mail me the paper if possible.

Now back to the example of the two different vehicles, one a BMW with two black teenagers and the semi with the old white male. If you have any experience with drugs or other crimes, any more there is not one "stereotype" of a crimminal. Both cars fit aspects of common stereotypes of "drug runners". Where officers and Departments get into trouble is when the officers go off half cocked, and uninformed. The job needs to be done by intellegent individuals with a keen understanding of the law and a great deal of integrity. The sloppy, half brained idiots are the ones who ruin it for the rest of us. There is nothing wrong with "if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck, walks like a duck, then its probably a duck. where we run into problems is when we say, "hey aren't ducks covered in white feathers, well over there is a bird with white feathers, must be a duck".
I'm white and shave my head, but I ain't a skin head. Now if I am wearing jeans and combat boots, a white t-shirt with a swasticka, and a tatto of lightning bolts on my neck then guess what, I would look like a skin head and any rational human being would think the same thing. I shouldn't be upset if a group of Jewish people treat me with a little contempt, and suspicion. If I am then maybe I should change my choice of clothes. The vauge point is that we should all be aware of others preceptions of us. The preceptions are not always correct, but they are preceptions still the same. We can not ignore these simple plain facts.

As a police officer I should be aware of these preceptions and use them in my job. If I am looking for a group of skinheads that are suspects in a synagouge bombing, then who would I pay more attention to, The obvious looking skin head or the Hispanic looking business man? Now I am of coures over simplifing things a bit but you get my point, I do feel that I am preaching to the choir with a few of you. Good cops are annoyed by this but still get the job done, the cops its intended to correct and restrain, won't ever get it and use it as an excuse for there lack of competence. Like Kristen and a few others said, So what else did you stop them for? What else was your PC or resonable suspicion? Just 'cause your black, white, yellow, red etc, ain't a reason. With good cops it never was. It also shouldn't be you excuse, "he stopped my cause I'm black, white, yellow, red, etc. NO DIPSHIT I STOPPED YOU BECAUSE YOU RAN A STOP SIGN, I COULDN'T EVEN SEE WHO WAS DRIVING ITS 2 AM!!!! I DON'T HAVE NIGHT VISION X-RAY EYES, GET THAT CHIP OFF YOUR SHOULDER WOULD YA! ok end of rant!

[grrlcop74]

I think I still have it on the ol' computer at home. It's only a couple of pages, but I think I got my point across. I'll email it as soon as I dig it up.

Kristen

[TXSWAT]

I know this is long....

I feel as an officer, the only form of prejudism and labeling is against me by all different kinds of people from different backgrounds. I know the beat I work. I know the people (good and bad) and they know me.

It's a game...one that has rules that only I have to play by. The bad guys don't have to...hence "bad guys". The community wants me to be effective and successful, yet through not knowing my job like I do they can't understand why I do the things I do. That's okay, that's why I wear the body armor and am getting paid to do it and not them.

I do this job much more than 40 hours per week. I study human behavior. I study crime trends abroad and in my area specifically. I record and remember experiences and use them to expand my ability to minimize the time it takes me to recognize the things I need to and to react accordingly. My job is an on-going, neverending study of laws, procedures, court cases, ordinances, policies and training that improves my ability to make rapid, legally sound decisions. It has been put that in the time it takes me to get a call, respond, recognize any violations and choose a response, take action on that response and do the paperwork, (deep breath) a judge is still making opening remarks and informing the jury at the trial that will take place many months/years later.

I am a student of my profession. This, coupled with experiences and extensive training, gives me a frame of reference as to what crime looks like, sounds like and how it is handled effectively. Knowing all of this, if I take any action I will be complained upon. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Out of the 6 ways you can handle a situation, you have to choose one and rest assured that everyone will argue that one of the other 5 should have been done instead.

All this to say...if I go through an extremely competitive and exclusive hiring/training process, I know my job, my laws, my procedures, my policies and my community...if I know how crime is committed in my AO and by whom and...here's the big clincher, okay...if they violate one of the thousands of laws that I have lasered into my noggin, which gives me reason to make contact and initiate an investigation....

why is that racial profiling? I get treated like shit, cursed at, spat upon, swung at, kicked at and glared at on a nearly daily basis by those who would accuse me of being prejudiced...and they usually end up being the ones who called the f-ing police to begin with. That's silly and that is the proverbial "pot calling the kettle..."

Why do we get calls constantly to the same addresses and the same parts of town? Why are the same people being named as suspects by their peers or family members when I'm investigating a crime? Why am I the one whom the finger is pointed when action is taken on the words of a sworn complainant?

It makes no sense, but I will say this. Officer-initiated contact and work is dropping fast as a result of all of this BS. Crime rates will rise as will insurance rates because officers will not be making the cases they used to, due to lack of support and additional liability emplaced upon us. It has become yet even easier to take away my house, car, paycheck and life if I try to work on the knowledge and experience I've gained in order to be effective.

Finally, there are those who will try to sue us for holding back as well...go figure. I'm not complaining. Obviously because I still choose to put on the uniform and take crazy risks in order to...I know it sounds f-ing stupid to most...in order to serve the community and to right the wrongs. I still do it with a smile and I still change a few minds every once in awhile.

[XXNavy]

BTW, TXSWAT, I hear, and understand what you are saying.
My question; What do you POs think of the gun laws? In specific, the conceal carry permits?
I have just gotten mine, (6 months) and have had no problem with POs, but have heard that some Officers don't like the idea at all.
I can understand the idea of pulling someone over, not knowing whether thay have a concealed weapon. When you run the tag numbers, do the carry permits show up? That way, at least you would know what to expect. Comments? Opinions?...

[ex_CavScout]

Originally posted by TXSWAT
I know this is long....

I feel as an officer, the only form of prejudism and labeling is against me by all different kinds of people from different backgrounds. I know the beat I work. I know the people (good and bad) and they know me.

It's a game...one that has rules that only I have to play by. The bad guys don't have to...hence "bad guys". The community wants me to be effective and successful, yet through not knowing my job like I do they can't understand why I do the things I do. That's okay, that's why I wear the body armor and am getting paid to do it and not them.

I do this job much more than 40 hours per week. I study human behavior. I study crime trends abroad and in my area specifically. I record and remember experiences and use them to expand my ability to minimize the time it takes me to recognize the things I need to and to react accordingly. My job is an on-going, neverending study of laws, procedures, court cases, ordinances, policies and training that improves my ability to make rapid, legally sound decisions. It has been put that in the time it takes me to get a call, respond, recognize any violations and choose a response, take action on that response and do the paperwork, (deep breath) a judge is still making opening remarks and informing the jury at the trial that will take place many months/years later.

I am a student of my profession. This, coupled with experiences and extensive training, gives me a frame of reference as to what crime looks like, sounds like and how it is handled effectively. Knowing all of this, if I take any action I will be complained upon. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Out of the 6 ways you can handle a situation, you have to choose one and rest assured that everyone will argue that one of the other 5 should have been done instead.

All this to say...if I go through an extremely competitive and exclusive hiring/training process, I know my job, my laws, my procedures, my policies and my community...if I know how crime is committed in my AO and by whom and...here's the big clincher, okay...if they violate one of the thousands of laws that I have lasered into my noggin, which gives me reason to make contact and initiate an investigation....

why is that racial profiling? I get treated like shit, cursed at, spat upon, swung at, kicked at and glared at on a nearly daily basis by those who would accuse me of being prejudiced...and they usually end up being the ones who called the f-ing police to begin with. That's silly and that is the proverbial "pot calling the kettle..."

Why do we get calls constantly to the same addresses and the same parts of town? Why are the same people being named as suspects by their peers or family members when I'm investigating a crime? Why am I the one whom the finger is pointed when action is taken on the words of a sworn complainant?

It makes no sense, but I will say this. Officer-initiated contact and work is dropping fast as a result of all of this BS. Crime rates will rise as will insurance rates because officers will not be making the cases they used to, due to lack of support and additional liability emplaced upon us. It has become yet even easier to take away my house, car, paycheck and life if I try to work on the knowledge and experience I've gained in order to be effective.

Finally, there are those who will try to sue us for holding back as well...go figure. I'm not complaining. Obviously because I still choose to put on the uniform and take crazy risks in order to...I know it sounds f-ing stupid to most...in order to serve the community and to right the wrongs. I still do it with a smile and I still change a few minds every once in awhile.

TXSWAT,

Well, this civilian puke appreciates the sacrifices you make and the risks you take. Unfortunately, the nature of your job only takes you to bad people or bad situations - I don't think POs would like it if I called 911 to invite them over for a beer :D

/me says, "It wasn't me officer, but since you're here, have a beer."

[mdb23]

I think that we are, in some ways, comparing apples and oranges.

In the situation where an LEO has information that a skinhead group is threatening to blow up a synagogue, the LEO has excellent reasonable suspicion to stop a person who: A) Is in the area of the synagogue B) Is white C) Has a shaved head D) Is wearing a bomber jacket with a swastika on the sleeve E) Is wearing jump boots.

In the above scenario, which was described in an earlier post, the combination of factors (which includes, but are not solely based upon, race) establishes reasonable suspicion. Many of the factors (the way in which the individual dressed, location, choice of emblems on the sleeve, the officer's knowledge of how members of the skinhead group dress) are much more damning than the race of the suspect. This is not racial profiling.

When we talk about racial profiling, we are speaking of targeting someone solely because of their race. For example, if an officer had pulled over the a vehicle leaving a military surplus store solely because it contained two Arabic males, then he has committed racial profiling.

The difference is subtle, but important.

mdb23

P.S. Cheers to all invloved for an intelligent, professional discussion regarding a sensitive issue.

[Sierra 1]

Initiating an investigative contact with someone "solely" because of race is bad police work. Any stop you make should be based on a totality of the circumstance. It must be recognized however, that race is a factor to be considered in that totality. Why do we always began our description of suspects with sex and race? Because those descriptors autimatically and most broadly reduce the possible suspect pool from everyone in the world down to down to less than 25% of people in the world (depending upon the race of the suspect).

A male black has been doing street 211's in a certain area. Do you stop every male black? Well, with the absence of other descriptors, if you are in a residential nieghborhood that is nearly 100% hispanic and the suspect in question appears to have no legitimate business in the area (ie visiting friends, broken down vehicle, funtion of employment etc), maybe you do.

In regards to the middle eastern descended men shopping for military style equipment, we are not talking about only one factor involved in wolfhound's suspicion. They were older men, not usually the age group involved in paintballing. They drove a veh and dressed in a manner that is inconsistent with what a reasonable person would expect the majority of paintball shoppers and players would. They were middle eastern! Certain groups of middle easterners have been involved with terrorism...maybe you've heard. And maybe the most important factor...did you just get that feeling....did the hairs on the back of your neck stand up...did something just seem a little hinky...I dont know wolfhounds background but an experienced police officer, or for that matter any trained observer, learns to recognize subtle signals in a suspect that register just below the consciousness. Now these guys were probably just looking for some stuff for one of their kids birthdays, but I believe a certain level of suspicion was warranted.

Also, just as a side note, why is profiling a bad word unless we are talking about serial killers...most typically male whites, mid 30's, poor employment record etc etc. They even have a TV show called "Profiler".

Be Safe,
Sierra 1

[Trigger1]

Mdb23,

You missed the point, I guess I wasn't clear enough. I am talking about preceptions when I gave my example, not racial profiling. We have all agreed that decisions to detain or arrest based only on race (or anyother single factor) are at least wrong and at most crimminal. To ignore race as a possible factor is also wrong at certain appropriate times. It is also wrong to use race as a crutch or excuse. If you look and act like a drug dealer or burgular and are tied of being stopped by the police and being treated as such,, CHANGE YOUR ATTIRE, ATTIDTUDE, BEHAVIOR ETC. If you go in for a job interview dressed like a pot smoking slacker, I don't care how qualified you are, you won't get the damn job.


My point is that preceptions exist, we cannot nor should not ignore them because of a few misguided actions of a few ignorant, unethical persons. I have given talks about preceptions in schools and "community centers" in the past. It can make a difference. I was speaking at a community center to a group of childred ages 9-16 when a 17 year old boy came in. I'll call him Rusty. Rusty was wearing baggy jeans and showing exposed boxershorts, he had on a North Carolina t-shirt, sunglasses, $200 dollar fancy hightop nike shoes with the laces untied. Rusty swayed when he walked and when I looked at him and said "hello would you like to join us" Rusty lowered his shades, grabbed his crotch and said, "I don't talk to no 5-0 I ain't no punk" "leave me alone, I ain't did shit" I asked the other kids if they thought Rusty would get hired at Mcdonalds if he showed up at an interview like this, I got a resounding no and quite a few laughs. I asked what they though Rusty did for money, they all replied that he was a "gangsta, or a dealer".


Racial profilling is wrong, preceptions are however an important part of our jobs, and yes race can be a part of that preception. Preceptions exsist and we cannot ignore them.

[TXSWAT]

XXNavy,

I'm struggling to think of a single PO I've spoken with who dislikes the concealed weapon permit. Again, if it's a law and law-abiding people are following the law in order to carry and are accepting the huge liabilities and responsibilities...those people don't worry me. I think it's great that people are able to carry and operate a tool that will save them way before I'm able to arrive on the scene as long as they take it seriously and act responsibly.

I've pulled over numerous CHL's and they've nearly all been very polite and have followed this state's protocol for interaction with law enforcement when carrying. I say "nearly" due to some isolated incidents of attitudes, vigilantism and intoxication.

As for calling 911 to invite me over for a beer...dispatch get's pissed about stuff like that, but I'll be there at least Code 2!

I'm finding it more and more, that the main segments of society today that have issues with race are the ones who belong to minority groups, themselves. I look at people's actions and listen to their words. I've met too many good people and have too many friends of all backgrounds that I'm not even thinking about a person's ethnicity...until they bring it up!

It is such a turn-off to try and interact with someone and THEY are the ones who are judging and profiling me saying that I'm a bigot just because I'm white and/or I'm a police officer (or "fucking pig" as they put it) I'd have to say that the VAST MAJORITY of officers in my experience can't afford to be closed-minded as they are portrayed to be. By the very nature of our job we have to be as open-minded as possible to allow for all possibilities to a effective investigator or problem solver. There is too much to lose by going out and being antagonistic and acting with provocation. I don't want to get hurt, killed or sued...therefore I conduct myself in such a way as to avoid those things as much as possible. This is the way most officers are.

My suggestion? Volunteer to ride out with an officer...see for yourself.

[XXNavy]

One more question, tho. I have been told that when you guys run a tag number, a conceal carry permit pops up, if there is one. Is this true?
The only reason I ask, (nothing to hide here) is because of the different state laws pertaining the CCW laws, i.e. some states say you have to show the officer your permit without him/her even asking, some states don't require it...

[TXSWAT]

Standard Statewide database doesn't marriage the LP with the CHL, just the Driver's License to the CHL. Our department has a software program that allows us to run a check on registered owner and vehicle checking for stolen or warrants as well as any flags that have been recorded for officer safety reasons due to previous contacts, threats made or criminal history registered owner may have. It could be programmed to inform on CHL as well. The more it has to search for, the longer the returns. It sounds big brother, but it's only purpose is to inform the officer as much as possible before he makes his approach/contact.

Only problem is, it's probably 60-40 on the percentage of times the actual registered owner is driving the car.

[Augie]

Some of facts about the "Round UP" have been missing in a lot of in alot cases. Most (Most) of the people on the list are not Legal residents. To make it short Most have failed to comply with terms of their visa(s). Visitors not leaving, students not in School, on parole status, attemptting to adjust status , etc.

Why target them when there are ten times as many Mexicans with active orders of deportation? Becase those guys are no risk. They're Not going to High jack any planes or blow up any buildings.

It's not Racial profiling. It's targeting the worst counties. Hell Pakistanies and Afghans are not even Arabic. Some of the Worst terrorist are from northen and westeren Africa.

Because of my job I send alot of my time in right there in the Customs areas Airports/seaports/Landborders checking people, Documents, condcting interviews, what ever. Most of the time I don't need any cause just suspicion. If I want to check them I will. I work with several guys that have been sued over "Racial Profiling". almost No one wins. Why because the overwhelming amount of time it's baseless. There is alot of other factors that are there and race just doesn't mean a thing but to complain. So I'm real tired of hearing the same complaint from the same offenders.

Example A few months back I got sent out on a Northen Border security detail. One night about 01:15 am we stop a vehicle that was trying to cross the Border Illegally (but going North into Canada). When I approached the Vehicle I noticed the Arabic guy in the vehicle looked a little nervious. I pulled my weapon out and ordered him out of the vehicle (A nice even felony stop very professional but short to the point ). Why escalate to that level? Just because He was Arabic? No, but it was part if it. The vehilce he was driving loosly matched the discript. of a vehicle that there was some intell. on that it may be used by terrorists that might be operating in the area. The one guy that was backing me up was my only back up for over 25 miles. I didn't know if he was alone. He was nervous and I'm going home home after my shift.
(what happend later is another story and off the topic).
Just My .02

[Trigger1]

On the contrary I think what happened next is very much important to the story. I don't know the Policies and procedures of US Customs, but where I work you better have a little more than just a loosly fitting vehicle description and a nervous driver to execute a high risk stop. I think the rest of the story is very important. Was he the crimminal you sized him up to be? Was it the same vehicle? Was he arrested and what for?

[Augie]

Well, to start I work for INS not Customs. I feel that I was MORE then justified. I shouldn't of used term loosly fit. It was the same color, same type, differnt model, no plate info and was it going the wrong direction through. The intell report said there should be three persons in the vehlice and armed. The intell. came from out side of DOJ but considered to be highly reliable. The time, location and reason for the stop. No available back up at the time (The Nearst Border Patrol unit arrived 13-14 min. later to his credit). We were/are at alert level 1 that's why there was two of us not one. I work for the wimps of the Justice dept. And on up to the Area Director had no problems with the way I handled it.( I was on the phone with him by morning)

The Subjet was an Arabic American. He had no want's no warrants all he had was a protect order from the Ex. I checked his status and checked with the RCMP. he and his vehilce were detained by U.S. Customs questioned, checked & questioned again and then released.

He was Not the subject of the Intell. but there was some evidence found in the vehicle that related to something else no good and was to be followed up on. But when I left for home still no prosecution.

That's the Short of it.

[Sharky]

Originally posted by Trigger1
On the contrary I think what happened next is very much important to the story. I don't know the Policies and procedures of US Customs, but where I work you better have a little more than just a loosly fitting vehicle description and a nervous driver to execute a high risk stop. I think the rest of the story is very important. Was he the crimminal you sized him up to be? Was it the same vehicle? Was he arrested and what for?


You probably don't realize it but, we operate at a different standard than anyone else. For example, I don't need Probable Cause like you do when I'm within 25 miles of the land border. I only need reasonable suspicion. I also don't need consent of the owner to go on private property etc.... INS plays by a different set of rules. The BP even more so.

[XXNavy]

My neighbor works for the TWRA, (Tennessee Wildlife Resource Agency) and he apparently has powers like those too.
He doesn't have to have a search warrant, hell, he even confiscated a guys boat, motor, trailer, AND the truck he pulled it with, for drinking and operating a boat.
He has told me that if someone farts, and it smells like deer, he can search a residence for deer meat, and you'd best have a legal tag, or you're going to jail.
He goes pretty well armed, too. There are lots of pot growers around here, that use booby traps, dogs, etc. Never a dull moment....

[grrlcop74]

Originally posted by XXNavy
He doesn't have to have a search warrant, hell, he even confiscated a guys boat, motor, trailer, AND the truck he pulled it with, for drinking and operating a boat.


Just FYI, that wouldn't require a search warrant. If I get you for DUI, I tow your vehicle and when you sober up and get some money in your pocket, you can go pay the towing and impound bill and get it back. They've actually thought about making a special license plate for multiple DUI offenders here, so everybody knows they're driving near a drunk LOL. I can see the obvious problems with that, but I still think it's friggin hilarious and I think they should do it for all offenses. Kind of a throwback to the ol' stocks or marking a criminal (scarlet letter, etc.). I think public humiliation can be a valuable punishment tool LOL.

Kristen

[MicrotechMike]

All of who are cops here, which I think is the majority, are getting pissed off about the level of politically correctness and bullshit that is going on in this country, and I'm no exception.

What really pisses me off is the situations that have been created due to 9/11. Remember the Muslim woman who was "strip-searched" by a female security officer in an Airport? She's going to sue the Airlines, the FAA, the airport, the security company, everyone. Oh, wah wah wah, we racially profiled her. Well fuck her! We had a United States Congressman that went through the same thing....he was "strip-searched", patted down, and questioned, but guess what? He kept his mouth shut and got on the plane with no problems.

Racial profiling is just something that will always be in police work as long as humans are doing the job. There will always be rogue racist cops too. It's unavoidable.

I know Muslims that would be perfectly glad to be strip-searched in an Airport because they know the risk that extremist Muslim groups are going through in order to conduct terror operations against the United States. They would rather be strip searched every day than go back to their shithole of a country. These good, hard working CITIZENS of the United States that I'm proud to call my friends (well at least a few of them) realize that they may have to give up a few of their individual rights from time to time to ensure that the security of this nation does not go to hell.

Sorry to turn this into a political argument, but the liberal democrats in the last 8 years have simply allowed this country to be flooded with illlegal immigrants who have no business being in this country. Of course you all know about the 300,000 individuals who have been ordered deported since 9/11 that WE HAVE NO IDEA WHERE THEY ARE.

Grrlcop, you're right. The black cops I work with arrest just as many blacks as the white ones do, generally. Most civilians can never and will never understand this, and there's no real way to explain it.

Bush needs to get a hold of all the bloodsucking liberal lawyers in this country who are turning everything into a PC battle.

[suntzuaow]

:( Microtech and everyone else. Be careful what you ask for. You just might get it. Soon it won't just be minorities getting their rights violated. It will then be to late.

[grrlcop74]

Oh geez, did you not bother to read ANY of the posts here? Did you miss the ENTIRE point of this thread? Please, give us your first-hand knowledge. :rolleyes:

Kristen

[Sapper12B]

What happens when we don't "violate the rights" of some f*ckin' criminal and he ends up violating my rights? Huh? It has happened.

As soon as one violates criminal law, they have twice as many rights as afforded to the law abiding citizen. All of this bullsh*t paranoia about " they'll come for you next" is pure bullsh*t. The same folks that "enforce" these human rights violations (yeah right) are the same ones who have families, dreams, and hopes like the rest of us. When you decide to draw the line and label good guys/bad guys, aren't you guilty of what the f*ck you are crying about?

Obviously you have no life experience concerning any of this stuff, you are just stealing my air. Go away to Utopia you moron.

Yes, using strong words is not the best way to write, but since you are not here for me to get in your face, that will have to do.

HOOAH!

[suntzuaow]

wow,

never thought i get such a response for putting my opinon out there.

Sapper

Obviously you have no life experience concerning any of this stuff, you are just stealing my air. Go away to Utopia you moron.

Yes, using strong words is not the best way to write, but since you are not here for me to get in your face, that will have to do.

I know this is not a Utopia, but it is the best place to live in this world and I want to keep it that way. Freedom is something that is ingrained in our way of live. Something I serve everyday to protect. (17 years and counting) I shouldn't have to be single out for my race (Black) while I'm driving down the NJ Turnpike. You can speak the way you do, because you've never been in my position. (A minority) Don't tell me you know what's its like.

Tracy, grrlcop74

My point being, Sept 11 changed everything. We have to be careful how we go about responding. We need to make decisions rationally and not emotionally. I know we live in a time when we are going to be sacrifice freedom for security. How much freedom for security? If we give up some rights will we ever get them back? History has shown that you don't. Hence be careful what you ask for you just might get it.

[suntzuaow]

grrlcop74,


Coming home from friends 1130 at night south down a two lane state road. In White 97 Dodge Neon. I pass a cop getting ready to pull out of a diner going the opposite direction from the way I'm traveling. I pass through his head lights (now he knows I'm black) after a few cars pass him going north he proceeds to pull out and start heading south. The same direction as me. I watch all of this in my rear view mirror. I'm now about a quarter of a mile from him. Of course I know he's coming after me. So he pulls up behind me. I know he's there so I'm extra careful. (Speeding, crossing the line etc etc) He follows me for about a mile and a half before he hits his lights. I pull over turn on the dome light and wait for him. He comes up to the car with the usually talk. License, registration etc etc. I get it out and wait. He comes back 5 mins later. (No ticket, no warning) Handing me back me documents. I then ask him why he pulled me over. You know what his answer was. This is a direct quote " The reason I pulled you over is because there are a lot of deer out here and you need to check your speed. " Wow, I just shook my head and laughed (even thou that shit isn't funny) but you wouldn't understand. (Its good to know cops care so much about me) LOL Have you ever pulled someone over who wasn't speeding and told him or her that? I'd love to hear this answer.

[grrlcop74]

You tell us to shut up because we don't know what it's like to be black....and yet you, who are not a cop, tell us how to do our job. Oh, the hypocrisy. Please tell me about my job...tell me how September 11th changed jack about how I profile. Do you even know what profiling is? What it consists of? And like I said, tell us about your personal experience...who didn't see that one coming? :rolleyes: Am I saying it didn't happen? Maybe, maybe not. It just amuses me that your "personal experience" relates to one of the most highly publicized case of racism (note, not "racial profiling", it doesn't exist) in modern law enforcement. We're not saying there aren't bad cops out there--there's good and bad in every profession. We're just sick of people who have no clue telling us how to do our job and how we should..how did you put it?..."decide rationally" in what can be a life-or-death split-second. And how do you know some of the officers posting here aren't black? If you want to throw out the perpetual victim race card, be prepared to have it trumped. Funny how the ones I work with agree with everything said here. They'll get a kick out of your posts.

Again, did you miss the whole point of this entire thread? Or more likely, YOU JUST DIDN'T GET IT.

Kristen

[grrlcop74]

Originally posted by suntzuaow
grrlcop74,


Coming home from friends 1130 at night south down a two lane state road. In White 97 Dodge Neon. I pass a cop getting ready to pull out of a diner going the opposite direction from the way I'm traveling. I pass through his head lights (now he knows I'm black) after a few cars pass him going north he proceeds to pull out and start heading south. The same direction as me. I watch all of this in my rear view mirror. I'm now about a quarter of a mile from him. Of course I know he's coming after me. So he pulls up behind me. I know he's there so I'm extra careful. (Speeding, crossing the line etc etc) He follows me for about a mile and a half before he hits his lights. I pull over turn on the dome light and wait for him. He comes up to the car with the usually talk. License, registration etc etc. I get it out and wait. He comes back 5 mins later. (No ticket, no warning) Handing me back me documents. I then ask him why he pulled me over. You know what his answer was. This is a direct quote " The reason I pulled you over is because there are a lot of deer out here and you need to check your speed. " Wow, I just shook my head and laughed (even thou that shit isn't funny) but you wouldn't understand. (Its good to know cops care so much about me) LOL Have you ever pulled someone over who wasn't speeding and told him or her that? I'd love to hear this answer.

Let's talk about perceptions. Remember the paper I mentioned in an earlier post? For that paper I interviewed several black friends who are not connected to law enforcement. I asked them had they ever been involved in an incident where they felt they were singled out because of their race. One stated she hadn't, but her husband had wondered about a traffic stop he had been involved in. He drives a Ford Thunderbird, after-market red paint job with a nice set of rims. Nothing too "ghetto", but enough to let you know that it's either a black person or a suburban white teenager who calls himself DJ Jazzy Trevor. Anyhoo, as he's driving along one day in a residential neighborhood that is not his own (and is 98% white), a cop does a U-ey and comes in behind him and pulls him over. The cop checks his license, asks him who the car belongs too, yada yada yada and tells him he can go. When Al asked why he was pulled over, the cop told him his car fit the description of a stolen vehicle broadcast in the area about ten minutes prior. Al is not distrustful of police so did not automatically think the worst, but since he was a black guy in a white neighborhood and his car was somewhat customized, he still had a niggling suspicion.

Now you tell me if he was right or wrong, and I'll tell you our side.

Kristen
P.S. He saw you in his headlights, so he knew you were black?? LMMFAO

[suntzuaow]

grrlcop74


You tell us to shut up because we don't know what it's like to be black....and yet you, who are not a cop, tell us how to do our job. Oh, the hypocrisy. Please tell me about my job...tell me how September 11th changed jack about how I profile. Do you even know what profiling is? What it consists of? And like I said, tell us about your personal experience...who didn't see that one coming? Am I saying it didn't happen? Maybe, maybe not. It just amuses me that your "personal experience" relates to one of the most highly publicized case of racism (note, not "racial profiling", it doesn't exist) in modern law enforcement. We're not saying there aren't bad cops out there--there's good and bad in every profession. We're just sick of people who have no clue telling us how to do our job and how we should..how did you put it?..."decide rationally" in what can be a life-or-death split-second. And how do you know some of the officers posting here aren't black? If you want to throw out the perpetual victim race card, be prepared to have it trumped. Funny how the ones I work with agree with everything said here. They'll get a kick out of your posts.

You don't have to be a cop. nobody is forcing you. (Thank god we have a right to choose) Myself, I don't think I can change being black. And please stop lying to yourself. Do you remember Oklahoma City? How Arabs got harassed? Shocked the hell out of America when they found out how it was one of there own corny feed boys. Perfect example of why racial profiling is a flawed practice. ARAB/Terrorist. Never White/Terrorist.

[grrlcop74]

Originally posted by suntzuaow
Perfect example of why racial profiling is a flawed practice.

I say again, YOU MISSED THE ENTIRE POINT. When you understand what is being discussed here, feel free to join in. Two sides can't have a debate if one side doesn't even comprehend the issue being discussed. Oh, and you're right, I don't HAVE to be a cop...but I am, and I'm not changing. Stop throwing out red herrings.

Kristen

[wolfhound227]

I got pulled over in Wichitah Falls, TX for speeding. The motorcycle cop who pulled me over was polite and patient and in the end, he gave me a written warning. Now he didn't tell me this was why he pulled me over but, in his polite lawman advice, he told me that I should slow down because:

"You fit a profile. You are white, traveling alone with little luggage. You also have California plates. We get a lot of drug trafficing along this route"

He told me that I should be careful because I could make some "County Mountie's" day.

Now, I have a big KISS ARMY sticker on the tailgate of my truck so if you factor that in with the California plates I'm lucky he didn't call for a drug sniffing dog. Needless to say, I did my greatful tourist impression and thanked him for not giving me a real ticket.
I thought, who the hell isn't trafficing drugs on this highway? But somehow, I didn't feel it would be smart to debate the guy.

[mada61]

Suntzuaow your use of the word minority
is flawed in california whites are a
minority so get a new word.

[suntzuaow]

Tracy,



Let's cut the pseudo-intellectual stuff for a moment, and cut to the chase:

1. Are you a Police Officer?

No

2. Are you Military?

Yes

3. What is your experience regarding Terrorism? Counter-terrorism? Anti-terrorism?

Annual / pre deployment LOAC, Force Protection training

4. What is your solution to combatting terrorism?

preemptive strikes.

5. What is your solution to profiling? How is your system better than what is happening now?

In a perfect country as long as everyone is treated the same and it doesn’t violate the constitution. I’m all for any idea, but you and I both know not everyone is going to be treated the same

6. Where have you implemented these solutions?

I’m only an E6

7. What excuse do you present for not implementing your solution.

See above

8. Are you familiar with the "reasonable man hypothesis"? How does your solution impact this hypothesis in a court of law?

A judgment or action a reasonable man would make in a given situation. That’s a hard one Again, as long as rights aren’t violated.

So far, all I see is someone with 'issues' who creates interference for the sake of disruption.

You missed my point. I know we are going to have to give up some freedoms. How much? Are we any safer if we do? Where does it end? Do we just throw away everything this country stands for? You know if we give something up. It’s hard as hell to get back. Theses are the entire question we have to answer, but let’s do it rationally and not regret anything we do. Hence my first point. Be careful what you wish for.

As for me?

1)No, 2)Yes, 3)I commanded a CT Unit, 4)Find the bastards and pile on, 5)If it works, use it, 6)Every where I go I make it happen, 7)I don't need a excuse, 8)Very familiar, I base my own profiling on it.

Nice profile, but your stills not black! So, you’ll never know what it feels like.

BTW, there's only one race: Human. You are correct, but humans have emotions and feelings.

Example: Right after September 11, The American Public was upset than mad. You and I both know you don’t make decisions on emotional impulses. You don’t think clearly, your judgment is clouded. There are people in prison who were model citizens who lost there cool for just that one spilt second. Who regretted ever thing that happen. Guess what. TOO LATE!

Why don't you go to your local constabulary and demand to ride along with street cops. Your job is to pass judgement on everything the cop does. If they grab someone, you must decide to either cuff or release him; based on your profiling opinion. BTW, you also have to assume full legal responsibility for suspect's actions; just like a cop. I sure Jesse or Al would be happy to hook you up.

Never passed judgment on police officers. They do have hard jobs. They also have a choice not to be one. Damn, you had to go there with Jesse and Al. LOL sorry individuals ROFLMAO

This is a great way for you to be a hero to all the oppressed masses and correct injustices. You'd be bigger than Zorro.

Not trying to be a hero. Like you I wish things were perfect. But until you admit you have a problem things will never get better

As for me, I don't give a damn about profiling; because if you fit my profile, you're toast. I don't know how many times I've been acosted on the streets because I make the Po-Po nervous; and that's from walking down the street. I find it rather flattering that 3 Cops surround me when they ask questions. I guess this beat-up ol' white boy still has some 'juice' left.

LOL you a bad dude! Just don’t reach into your pocket and pull out your wallet. Oh, I forgot you could do that with out being shoot at 41 times


If you've got a better way to do things, let's hear it. If not, suck it up and leave our space.

No, I don’t. I’m very open minded to new ideas. That’s why I joined the discussion. How open-minded am I? I’m a black republican J


Question for everyone. If the IRA had been responsible for Sept 11 would we be rounding up all Irish men with a last name that begins with O

[XXNavy]

I have been in lot's of other countries that I was the minority in, so I understand where you're coming from, bro.
I was in Alabama several weeks ago, driving down 431, thru Anniston, and got pulled over. The officer was nice enough, checked my license, proof of insurance, etc. I could tell he was fairly new because he was about 22-23 years old, probably not on his own very long.
Anyway, I asked him why he stopped me, and he said because I was doing 55 in a 65 zone. (I had seen him turn around, and was being cautious). I asked him what the minimum speed limit was and he said 55. So I'm good to go rught? Yes, sir, have a nice night, etc.
I think he was "racially profiling" me, because he was black, and I am white. I drive a brand new 4wd Dodge four door truck, and I think he thought he could make an easy arrest, for drinking, or the like. (He made me open a cooler that was full of food, in the back of the truck). Besides that, I have UT stickers on my truck, and everyone down south knows that Alabama doesn't like Tennessee football, hehe.
Sorry, I digress. What I'm saying is that I was "violated" by being pulled over because I am white, and drive a nice truck. Do I have the right to bitch, yes. Do I have any legal rights, no.
As most people on this board know, and you will too, if you read all my posts, I am no racist. But it's getting pretty bad when I find a Miss Black America beauty pageant on a Saturday afternoon, and now I feel like the minority. What if there was a Miss White America pageant? There would be rioting in the streets again, wouldn't there? Just my .02 (US)...

[Sapper12B]

I guess if I was a sniveler like you, I would claim "minority " status too. When I enlisted in the US Army, I was green. When I became a cop, I was a Mexican. I didn't whine, I worked hard and ignored the ignorance. Where did it get me? In short, I am where I want to be. Don't blame anyone but yourself for your shitty attitude toward authority. No, I don't have to be a cop, a soldier, or anything..... I have to be responsible though. If everyone had your 'tude about authority, there would be none. So much for Utopia.......moron

[suntzuaow]

guess if I was a sniveler like you, I would claim "minority " status too. When I enlisted in the US Army, I was green. When I became a cop, I was a Mexican. I didn't whine, I worked hard and ignored the ignorance. Where did it get me? In short, I am where I want to be. Don't blame anyone but yourself for your shitty attitude toward authority. No, I don't have to be a cop, a soldier, or anything..... I have to be responsible though. If everyone had your 'tude about authority, there would be none. So much for Utopia.......moron

Sap,

I have much respect for authority. Myself being in the military. That's not what I'm trying to argue. I am trying to argue racial profile disenfranchise certain groups of people. Basically it says America is a great country as long as you are a WASP. I thought all men where created equal. Which means everyone should be treated equal, until proven other wise. We both know that doesn’t happen. Until men can get past color, sex, religion there will always be profiling that hurts certain groups of people. I'm just point out it shouldn't be that way. If I had the answer to fix it I would, but there is no quick fix. Sept 11 just complicated racial profile. I feel bad for Arab Americans. As an African American who's grown up during America's War on Drugs I know what they are about to be put thru only ten folds worst. Is this right?

[grrlcop74]

Dude, WTF?? Do I have to type in big letters for you to understand what the fuck we are talking about here?? THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "RACIAL PROFILING"..IT IS A MEDIA TERM. IF A COP PULLS YOU OVER BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF YOUR SKIN, HE IS A RACIST. PERIOD. END OF STORY. NO "PROFILING" HAS OCCURRED. SINCE YOU WANT TO THROW OUT EVERY LAME ASS MEDIA HYPE STORY SINCE THE END OF THE FUCKIN' COLD WAR ABOUT RACIST COPS, HERE'S THE DEAL. HAVE YOU EVER BEEN IN A FIREFIGHT? BEEN SHOT AT FROM CLOSER THAN SEVERAL HUNDRED METERS? USED A GLOCK WHILE DOING IT? NO??? THEN DON'T FUCKING JUDGE THE NY COPS WHO DID. WHY IS IT THAT WHEN WHITE PEOPLE STILL THINK O.J. IS GUILTY EVEN THOUGH HE WAS FOUND INNOCENT IN A COURT OF LAW, WE'RE BEING RACIST, BUT WHEN WHITE COPS GET OFF, IT'S OKAY TO SLUR THEIR NAMES UNTIL THE END OF FUCKIN' TIME?? YET AGAIN, A DOUBLE STANDARD, AND THIS IS WHAT CREATES RACE PROBLEMS, ISN'T IT? SO YOU'RE NO BETTER THAN WHAT YOU ACCUSE US OF BEING. HOW MANY RACISTS HAVE YOU MET THAT WERE FUCKIN' FRIENDLY?? AND YET MOST EVERYBODY WITH THEIR LITTLE "I WAS PULLED OVER BECAUSE I WAS BLACK/WHITE/HISPANIC" STORY TALKS ABOUT HOW NICE THE OFFICER WAS (XXNAVY), THEY JUST DIDN'T BELIEVE WHAT HE WAS TELLING THEM. GUESS THE FUCK WHAT?? WE DON'T TELL THE PUBLIC EVERYTHING. WE WOULD SPEND OUR ENTIRE DAY ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD YAKKING.

Guys, he STILL does not get the point of the friggin' thread. Let him stew in his own juices.

Navy, that was just as stupid of an example of "racial profiling" as friggin' suntzuwannabe's was. If you knew (again, we're getting back to the whole civilians-just-don't-get-it thing) anything about looking for DUIs, you would know that a key indicator is driving below the speed limit. All roads have a minimum speed, just as they have a maximum. Just because you are travelling within that zone doesn't mean you're not showing signs of committing a crime other than speeding (i.e., DUI, trafficking).

Kristen

[grrlcop74]

Originally posted by Sapper12B
I guess if I was a sniveler like you, I would claim "minority " status too. When I enlisted in the US Army, I was green. When I became a cop, I was a Mexican. I didn't whine, I worked hard and ignored the ignorance. Where did it get me? In short, I am where I want to be. Don't blame anyone but yourself for your shitty attitude toward authority. No, I don't have to be a cop, a soldier, or anything..... I have to be responsible though. If everyone had your 'tude about authority, there would be none. So much for Utopia.......moron

HOLY SHIT, A HISPANIC COP!!!! RRRRUUUNNNNN.......There may be black cops nearby too!!!! Or maybe white cops who have black or hispanic spouses!!! My God, they could be human!! WHO KNEW!!!!!!! Okay, sarcasm over...couldn't resist Sapper ;).

Kristen (who can count black and mulatto slaves as her ancestors in the not so distant past....gasp...shock...oh the horror)

[MrPotatoHead]

Kristen,

You're my hero! Thanks for saying it like it is and not sugar coating it!

My personal favorite comeback to, "You're just pulling me over because I'm (Black, Hispanic, Indian, Asian, Native American, Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, gay, lesbian, bisexual, etc. etc. etc. you fill in the blank)." "IunerstanhowumusfeelcuzyouronlysayinthatcauseImwhi te. Nowthatwehavethatoutofthewaycanwepleasegitdown2bus iness?"

Spud

[Sapper12B]

I'm married to a beautiful white woman, am I in now?

Seriously Sun,

First, if you are in the military, what branch? What do you do? Yes it matters because some of us have seen more than just the PX and NCO club during our hitch.

Second, racial profiling only refers to ones excuse for being a certain race and being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Look, I will not argue that there are some in authority positions who choose to DISCRIMINATE due to race, color, or gender. In this day and age, they WILL get caught and dealt with severely. Does it still happen? Yes. I defer that portion of your argument. HOWEVER, the public is generally more educated than in the past, and the wealth of information (internet, library, TV, radio) is so overwhelming, our founding fathers would shit splinters if they knew how the First Ammendment was being interpreted. So don't tell ME people are being oppressed, most choose to not give a shit.

As for being treated equal, our Constitutional case law states that a convicted felon CANNOT vote or possess a firearm or ammunition. Hell, look at the Lautenburg Ammendment, sounds like there is an exception to the Second Ammendment. Sounds like differential treatment. We are not all equal. As for the criminals, they enjoy the umbrella of civil rights as they commit their crimes. How fair is that? We are not all created equal; hell I think I'm better than anyone here, just ask someone who knows me!

Now, as for SEP 11. Prior to that horrific series of events, the Supreme Court, and the public in general favored civil rights over security. The tide has changed. In case you don't know, you CANNOT have, concerning case law, a high level of civil rights along with a high level of security. Pick one or the other. We can have a nice combination of both, but there will always be one more than the other. I f this requires using common sense in isolating suspects, not limited to but including, their physical appearance, so be it. I am a light skinned Spanish male (sorry Kristen, I just look like a Mexican I guess), and if I get stopped because a light skinned Spanish guy just held up the local stop and rob, kudos to the officer that stopped me! He/she is DOING THEIR JOB and keeping my city safe.

The War on Drugs. Well, I have been fighting that war for 10 years. As an undercover, and as a Tactical officer. I am here to tell you that unequivocally everyone that I arrested for narcotics was guilty. The folks that were "put through that" f*ckin' deserved it.

If you are military, have you seen other countries that have a better system? I would be interested to hear from you.

By the way, I realized I stopped at (2), smartasses.

All The Way

[suntzuaow]

Navy, that was just as stupid of an example of "racial profiling" as friggin' suntzuwannabe's was. If you knew (again, we're getting back to the whole civilians-just-don't-get-it thing) anything about looking for DUIs, you would know that a key indicator is driving below the speed limit. All roads have a minimum speed, just as they have a maximum. Just because you are travelling within that zone doesn't mean you're not showing signs of committing a crime other than speeding (i.e., DUI, trafficking).

Grrcop74,

So what you are saying. Even if you are opeying the law you have the right to stop someone?

[grrlcop74]

Yet again, you miss the entire point and focus on what little piece of information fits your agenda. 3 strikes and you're out, moron.

<ignore> God, I love that feature.

Kristen

[mdb23]

Originally posted by suntzuaow


Grrcop74,

So what you are saying. Even if you are opeying the law you have the right to stop someone?

Technically, yes. For example, I was working one night when a fleet broadcast came out regarding a "silver Dodge Intrepid which had just left the scene of a DV assault" about 10 blocks west of my location (travelling eastbound). The vehicle was reportedly occupied by a black male. Couple of minutes later, a silver Dodge Intrepid drives by me, occupied by a black male. My partner and I pull it over, explain why we stopped the vehicle, and get the driver's info. We shoot the info to the officers working the DV call, who confirm that this isn't the guy. We give back the ID, say we are sorry for the inconvenience, at which point he goes off on us for being racists, pigs, Nazis, etc............

The guy filed a complaint against us, which was unsusbstantiated, stating that the only reason we pulled him over was that he was black. Was it true? No. Would we ever be able to convince him of that? No. Will he tell everyone that he was racially profiled? Proabably. But to answer your original question, the above driver had broken no laws, but I was completely justified in pulling him over.

The problem lies in the fact that some Americans ( of all backgrounds) believe, for whatever reason, that all cops are racist. These individuals have a predetermined idea of "why" they were pulled over before the cop even has an opportunity to explain. Furthermore, they do not believe the explaination once it is given, preferring to believe their own version of events.

Another example: I once pulled over a vehicle that had NO license information anywhere on the vehicle. As soon as I got to the vehicle, I was greeted with insults and the accusation that I had only stopped him because he was black. I explained why I had actually stopped him, at which point he said, "you wouldn't have stopped a white person with no license." Turns out the guy has a warrant, at which point I arrest him. Of course, according to him, I would have looked the other way on that as well had he been white. We get to detention, and one of the other guys in the holding cell asks him why he is there. He replies, "because I am black."

The simple fact is that many individuals believe that anything an officer does is fueled by racism, and nothing will ever change that. You can't debate someone who isn't open to new ideas/points of view.

Adios,
mdb23

[MrPotatoHead]

This whole tread is way off its original topic. If you have an agenda, go somewhere where someone will bite, preferably on another board.

The original topic was War on Terrorism/Racial Profiling.

Let's put this in simple terms:

Would you get on a commercial airplane if you knew the following and the subjects described above were not placed under any further security scrutiny?

1. 3 men between the ages of 25 and 35 got on the plane.
2. The 3 men described above all used Pakastani passports as ID to get on the plane.
3. All 3 men paid cash for 1 way tickets from JFK to LAX.
4. All 3 men appear to be of Arab decent.
5. One of the men has an odd looking shoe with Shoe Goo holding the sole on.
6. All 3 of the men are carrying a copy of the Koran.

If you answered YES to the above question, you are a fool.

Is the above a form of racial profiling?

No, it is the application of a profile in which possible race plays a small part considering the totality of the circumstance.

If you want to discuss racial profiling in regards to a different circumstance, not concerning 911, I would suggest you start a new thread preferably on another bulletin board. The officers that subscribe to this board do not subscribe to the concept of "Racial Profiling." As Kristen stated above, "Racial Profiling" is not a police term. It is a term created for and by the media to replace the terms "Racism" and "Racist" when applied to Law Enforcement Officers conducting illegal and/or questionable stops of subjects based on nothing more than their race.

As for your agenda, I doubt anyone here will debate with you concerning your 'incident' since we are unable to get the officers side of the story. Being police officers, we are naturally suspicious about what people tell us and we realize there are two sides to every story. We like to have the entire story, from both sides before forming an opinion on what occured.

[Sharky]

Always makes me laugh when I hear the civil rights groups crying about how the Border Patrol violates the rights of Mexicans on a daily basis and how the Border Patrol are nothing but a bunch of racists who hate Mexicans.......LOL They fail to mention the fact that the US Border Patrol is almost 70% Hispanic. I could go on and on.......

[rgrjoe175]

Originally posted by Sharky
Always makes me laugh when I hear the civil rights groups crying about how the Border Patrol violates the rights of Mexicans on a daily basis and how the Border Patrol are nothing but a bunch of racists who hate Mexicans.......LOL They fail to mention the fact that the US Border Patrol is almost 70% Hispanic. I could go on and on.......

Since I am not a police officer...I should not post here...but I once was a Caddo Parish Deputy Sheriff...hey dont fucking laugh it was a summer job between when I etsd and started college.... I am fucking sick of the racial shit I see in the media and the idiots the espouse it.... racism is a learned trait... taught by idiots... dont fucking matter one way or another the color of someones skin... but if I am pulled over because some a police officer has a call that a white dude in a silver acura was at a shooting seen... and it was not me but i was pulled over...i would thank the officer for doing it.... shit I have had the fucking a swat team swarm my house and scare the shit out of my boys with a fucking news helo overhead and my house on tv....did I get mad...hell no...I thought it was one of the funniest fucking things that ever happened to me.....Fuck that racism shit.... you think the black officer that pulled his gun on me on I 95 one day when I was heading from Savannah back down to Florida was a racist for pulling his weapon on me for stepping out of my truck...no he was not...he just sees this big bastard getting out when he did not know that my window was broken and I could not roll it down.... he was protecting himself....and thank god he was....i respect him for it...

I for one as a civilian am tired of this bullshit...

End of rant...

Joe

Fuck you finboy it is battalion......

[XXNavy]

Thanks for bringing my idiocy to everyones attention.
That last post was supposed to be a joke, although it really happened. I was making the point that ANY circumstance could be viewed as racial, it just depends on who's looking at it.

[grrlcop74]

I didn't say you were stupid, I said your example was.

Kristen

[swatbwana]

sorry DBLTAP

[swatbwana]

The problem is we ar eletting the media expouse their term"racial profiling"without stepping up to the plate and caling it what it is.
CRIMINAL PROFILING when a security gaurd at the airport lets a middle eastern male fitting the age and ticket purchase profile slip through because they are afraid of racial profiling it is deriliction of his duites.
The people who allow this should put the gonads back in their empty sacks .

[Augie]

Thousands of illegal Middle Eastern immigrants who have ignored deportation orders will be interrogated by federal agents, who will focus on any who may have ties to terrorism, The Washington Post reported Friday.

The plan, which the Post said was detailed in a Jan. 25 Justice Department memo, is part of the Immigration and Naturalization Service's effort to locate an estimated 314,000 foreigners.

The memo was written by sent to antiterrorism officials by Deputy Attorney General Larry Thompson, the newspaper said.

It instructs federal agents to find methods of detaining some of the immigrants for possible criminal charges, rather than merely expelling them from the United States.

Justice Department and FBI officials have said that the operation would focus first on about 6,000 immigrants from countries identified as al-Qaida strongholds.

A Justice Department official did not immediately return call late Thursday seeking comment on the report.

The vast majority of immigrants ignoring deportation orders, also known as ''absconders,'' are Latin American.

Officials said the arrests will begin next week with a group of fewer than 1,000 illegal immigrants, mostly from the Middle East and Pakistan, according to the Post.

The immigrants are believed to be the most dangerous because they are convicted felons.

US officials are forming special ''apprehension teams'' that include agents from the FBI, the US Marshals Service and the INS, according to the memo. The results of any interviews will compiled in a new computer database.

I don't see anything Racial in this. It's common sense.

Augie

[MicrotechMike]

Hey guys...sorry I wasn't here for fill but I was away on a job. Anyway...this thread is utterly ridiculous.

This just reaffirms my belief that some people just can't be taught otherwise when it comes to their ideas on racism, the police, profiling, and other stuff.

People who spout off about how "You pulled me over just because I'm white/black/mexican/arab" are the most racist ones of them all.


What the hell is wrong with you, SUN?

[TXSWAT]

Sun---'police have hard jobs...they also have the choice not to be one'

what kind of FUBAR logic is that? guess we should all pack it in then and let the public 'fend for themselves because idiotic practices creep into the system and no one will listen to the reason of experience? Instead we have to quit rather than debate the issue to achieve more practicality? who will take our place...you, in your infinite wisdom?

I'd love to see you and the other theorists of the world try to implement your pollyanna ideals in the projects after the sun has gone down. Guess who calls the city council and the PD administration to complain that the police need to do more and get more aggressive on the problems in their neighborhoods? Guess who calls 911 for everything under the sun because they know we are the only ones who will show up with common sense and take control of a problem or even give someone advise on life's issues....the same people who complain publicly about how the police are involved in too many aspects of their lives. And you believe them over us.

I'd love to sit around, workout or something and only take a few accident reports or lost property reports all shift long, but some people just don't let that happen for us. The same people who engage in thoughtless, careless, reckless, destructive, prejudiced behavior are the same ones who accuse us of being all of those. And you believe them over us.

People elect officials and/or circulate petitions to create legislation to supervise all aspects of our lives. It all falls back on police officers to enforce those laws. Then we get complained on for enforcing shit that is on the books. And you are mad at us for enforcing laws and rules (well, only when you get caught breaking them anyway)

I'll stop my angry rant...I won't find another job because I'm good at this one, I enjoy this one and this job is very vital to my community. But that doesn't mean that I have to accept ignorance being thrown at me in the form of someone who thinks they know my job better than I do and launches baseless attacks on my character or the character of my fellow officers.

Grab your fucking body armor and do a ride-along with us some time...