National Guard SF Groups

[ca_sgt]

This is for anyone out there....

What are some view and opinions about the
19th and 20th SFG's which are part of the
National Guard program? I am in the SF Indoc Program being run by a 20th Group ODA and they seem to really be high speed and the training is very challenging. Please check and advise, over.

[Scout]

SGT,

Which BN are you with? Cam (where ever he is)is signing up with 2nd BN in MS and I'm joining 1st, both of us will in the NQP program.

Scout

[Spotlight_Ranger]

I ran across an old and highly talented buddy of mine, on the net who left active duty SF in 95 out of disgust. He told me he joined the guard SF was a team sergeant, and the guard SF was the way old SF used to be. Ya know, somehow I believe it.

[Snake]

What all do these guys DO, anyway? Gimme the *typical* day in a SF(NG) snake-eaters day?

Snake(inedible)

25thID(L)

[Mac679]

Anyone have anything more specific on 3 BN, 20th SFG(A) here in Virginia? I'm looking at joining while I finish up college and want to know what I'm getting into first. Thanks!
Mac

[Snake]

What yr of College you in? Might check out trying to go Guard as an O. Not a bad way to start. You could spend a good chunk of time as a Det-CO. Guard sometimes has advantages over the Regs.......

Snake II
25th ID(L)

[JOE-BOO]

You can go into NG SF as an LT!!!!....You are an a-team xo....upon completion of tIOBC and the SF courses....and you get to goto alot more schools if you choose(scuba, halo...)

[Dominique]

Mac679- You should be able to pick up the SF recruitment package from any VA ARNG recruiter, or you can call the unit, its got a few AGR guys there during the week to handle personnel issues. From what I remember its been under strength for a while now.

Plus its one of only two NG SF uits with a HALO qualified A-team assigned to it.

[Hillbilly]

First of all I am with C/2/19th at Camp Dawson WV. It is very high-speed with an intensive training "team". We usually conduct normal abn-ops with the tabbed teams then go on to our "training" which usually consists of pt, pt test, and rigorous ruck-marches. Ruck-marching is our "bread and butter". We also have meetings, where we learn what to prepare for at SFAS, from our guys who have attended already. Overall in the NG it is all about preparation for selection. I think the program is great and look forward to every drill. One last note, Tom has added the NG pages again so I guess most of us will be moving there. Best of luck to all of you and if you know someone who might be interested have them contact my unit at 304-329-4379. We currently have members from all over the northeast, up-state NY to VA beach. If you want the "tabb" but can't afford to leave your civilian job this is the way to go.

[ca_sgt]

Scout,

I'm training with B/3/20 in VA. We have an INDOC Program to weed out those who will 95% of the time pass SFAS. They will not even assign you officially until you return from passing SFAS. But after the INDOC, you are attached (I'm pretty sure) to the unit to continue training.

[This message has been edited by ca_sgt (edited 10-28-1999).]

[Scout]

SGT,

I'll soon be doing the same with b/1/20th when I finally get enlisted, though the BC wants to move us to BN HQ and away from the teams (a BAD idea, IMHO). Go through OSUT and Airborne, then train with the NQP team until you're ready for SFAS, then back with the NQPs until Q course. Before selection is a lot of PT, rucking and land nav, after you pass Selection, you start learning stuff.

Warrior is going to be joining 2d BN in Mississippi, so we'll soon have all of 20th GRP covered! Also, Hillbilly's with 19th SF NQPs over in WV. Good luck with 3d BN! Feel free to email me anyime and I'm sure Warrior and Hillbilly would say the same.

Scout
cdtscout@aol.com

[Mike]

Suppose one want to join as an officer in the National Guard - attending OCS for three months, then the infantry office ocurse for 9 months, and then SF - how exactly will one still keep his civilian job with all the time off? Anyone can give their experiences?

[Scout]

As for OCS, a lot of states have their own program. Alabama has the Alabama Military academy (though really its OCS) where you drill weekend just like with any other unit,
thought the last portion is on active duty.
Instead of three months active, you have a few weeks. OBC is active duty, but OAC has a reserve component. I think IOBC is 15 or 17 weeks, not sure about IOAC, but that can be done with the reservce component.

So you're looking at drilling for OCS, then 4-5 months active for OBC, quiet a while to drill with an NQP platoon to prepare for SFAS, 3 weeks for that if you pass on the first try, IOAC drills, a month or several waiting for SFQC, active for Q-course for 6 months, then language school for 4-6 or more.
And of course, 3 weeks for airborne school in there somewhere. Its not all going to happen in one chunck for active duty time.I think Guard SF may be able to send O-1s to SFAS, but I don't think its very likely to happen.

HTH
Scout

[x:C-1/75 Ranger]

I am in an enlisted in an Army Reserve unit in eastern VA. What are the requirements for the NG SFG Indoc program. I have prior military service (see username). My reserve unit is a support unit, and it sucks! Only slots for 11B in Reserves are Drill SGTs. What is the closest NG SFG 19th/20th, is it in VA or WVA? What is their area of operation? What is the average # of drills per month and active duty throughout the year? RLTW!

[Mac679]

Ranger,
3BN/20SFG(A) is out at AP Hill. that's the closest to eastern Virginia I could find ( seeing as we seem to be from the same area ).
Hope it helps,
Mac

[Dominique]

The SF unit on AP Hill used to have a guy come around to all of the combat units and give a brief overview and recruitment package to anyone interested.

Call any VA ARNG recruiter and they should be able to hook you up with someone at the unit.

They do have a small AGR support staff thats their during the week if you want to give them a call.

[Hillbilly]

Ranger, we have soldiers coming from D.C. and the Va. Beach area to C/2/19th at Camp Dawson WV. If you feel you may be interested contact me or my unit administrator. With our soldiers driving from these areas I'm sure car-pooling could easily be arranged.

[RKW]

You guys mentioned that LTs are excepted, and that 0-1s can be sent to SFAS, so if they accept Lts, then what younger enlisted men, like E-1s and E-2s?
Thanks

[LRSC Grunt]

If you want to find NG SF units go to

http://www.rc-sof.com/

[cecil18]

This response is for RKW's question. I have seen as low as an E-3 promotable coming into the unit. My understnding (could stand to be corrected) is that you should be at least be an E-4 (spc/cpl) prior to attending selection. We have had E-3 coming into the unit that have not been promotable and stayed an NQP due to their promising capability to complete the qualification process. Now bear in mind this is for the prior service individual, it is a different ball game for the civilian who comes in off the street to join in an SF National Guard unit. they would be palced into a REP 63 process. This person would leave for basic training, tech school, SFAS (may pass selecton/may not), airborne, and Q-course. The order may vary on selection and airborne, but it is something to that effect. These individuals have a 50/50 chance , mainlly due to their inexperience in service and are sent back to home to the home unit after being a non-select at SFAS (could be after a couple tries at SFAS too). They eventyually return if they have the heart to succeed. Sorry for the long winded response, just wnated to cover all bases. If any one has noy other input or corrections please pipe in to keep me trackin correctly.
-cecil

[Ranger1]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm told by NG recruiters in ME, NH,VT and RI that you can't join SF (even NG) as an O until you're a 1st Lt.

In the NG, (when coming off the street) this means OCS then OBC (preferably Infantry or Artillery Branch) then two years with a leg unit before you're eligble to attend SFAS / SFOQC.

NG SF guys out there, please correct me if I'm wrong. Doesn't sound right to me that someone with a degree can walk in off the street, spend a year and a half on AD getting schooled and qualified, and becone a tabbed and branched XO of a NG A-Team.

-Kirk

[Mike]

Plus the financial hardships of going to school for up to two years. And for some reasons, the Army doesn't give TDY money or some credits for going to school if you're in the NG unlike the Regular Army.

[cecil18]

Kirk,
I have seen O-1's in the Q-course when I went through fresh out of college/ROTC, they may have been O-1 promotable on garduation. A very good friend of mine was/still is an SF baby(no insult intended, they have never been any where else, born and raised SF)and has been an excellent O, he listens to his NCO's for input makes sound decisions, he is now an O-3 soon to be in the window for O-4. It is a fifty/fifty role of the dice as for the proficiency of a young O who is soley an SF baby, but when they are they are easily molded to fit the team (if the team is good). I think alot of it depends on the states themselves. There are ways to get around little bumps in the road. Are you looking to enter as an O-1 into SF? Hope I have been of some assistance.

[Ranger1]

Cecil,

I am considering re-enlisting SFNG (I'm ex-3/75th) in the very near future, and have more than enough college credits to qualify for OCS attendance. I see by your profile that you're with the 20th, so maybe you can tell me (or reliably find out). It is interesting that you say it is possible to be with an SFNG Group as an SF qualified O-1, as this goes against everything I've been told. I have other questions you (or others) may be able to help with.

1. I've been told that if I enlist into the SFNG as an NCO and later attend OCS that I will have to do the entire SFQC (or rather the SFOQC) over again. (Is this true?)Looking at the course structure, there are many identical areas in the SFQC and SFOQC.
While I wouldn't be adverse to doing this, (as I'm sure the specific MOS training for 18A is quite valuable, challenging, and uniquely structued) it seems a waste of your parent unit's time and DOD funds to repeat even the identical portions of the course.

2. It would be more sensible(time efficient for the parent NG SF Group as well as cost efficient for the DOD) to conduct an abbreviated course for SF NCO's who, after having valuable enlisted team time, opted to try for their commission. Does such an abbreveiated course exist? (Like say, specific 18A training and then making the new O's do Robin Sage again as an 18A?).

3. If it is true that an SF NCO would have to repeat SFQC (as an 18A at SFOQC) would you suggest that I attempt to re-enlist as an O-1, and skip enlisted team time? When I was with the 75th, I (as did most others) always had a bit more time for officers who had been prior service enlisted 75th, went to OCS or the Point and returned after Germany / Korea.

My current outlook is that I would value taking 3-4 years as an SFNG NCO before attending SFOQC. What would you suggest? Is there a third option I'm not considering? In the end I, of course, will be making the choice, but your input as a member of the 20th is appreciated.

If anyone else has some helpful insights, please feel free to chip in.

Thanks for your time.

-Kirk

[RKW]

Cecil,
Are you Enlisted or an O in the NGSF? How much time did you take off from college to go the Q course? Did you attend other courses? What rank were you able to enter at?
Also, I read a while ago that NGSF are more like the old SF. Does this mean structure or what?
Thanks to Cecil or anyone who can help

[cecil18]

Kirk,

I will try to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge, any thing I am in the gray on I will find out and let you know.

Q1: Yes, that is true for Q1. If you are an 18-B,-C,-D,-E,-F,-Z and get a commision you have to go through the whole SFQC. Yes there may be some redundancy when going through, but officers are trained and observed in a different light in phase I & III of SFQC due to their previous training(planning exposure). Overall though officers in the SFQC are only exposed to a small amount of the different MOS's. For instance, where an 18C(engineer) gets aprox. 3 weeks on calc. and place including a week at the ranges, an O will get maybe 3-4 days including range time.My understanding is that they are trianed/drilled on planning and ALOT of it. If any thing, the review of familiar material may provide others with a good source of guidance and assistance.

Q2: No such beast in the Active or NG SF.

Q3: Now that is a difficult question. I personally have more respect for a mustang/maverick barring they are not a shit bag as an NCO and become an even greater burden with a commision.
I will say this, my best experience was in SFQC where I had the privledge to be on a team with a prior service SSG/E-6 out Ranger Battalion (who by the way received a commision). Need I say he was extremely squared away! In that case his prior enlisted experience only enhanced his leadership as an Officer. Who's to say that your experience in Battalion as enlisted won't do the same. *read on!

Now grasshopper I think you may have over looked one option. The 180-A, SF Warrent Officer, the best of both worlds! to become one you must be 1.)SF qualified 2.) have I do believe 4-6 years team time, 3.)min. 2 MOS's- you primary and usually SF ANOC/O&I (usually by then you are at E-7). Put together a packet and submit it. Then hope that all of your hard work will pay off. If selected you go off to Warrent Officer School (FT. Benning) and 180-A at (Ft. Bragg). Now I do belive they do not go back through SFQC as I previously mentioned, but I will verify that and fire you off an e-mail to confirm. From what I have seen and heard from our Warrents it is the best way to go. Mainly because you do not ever have to leave the teams until the time you are incontinent and cannot funciton due to old age. While an officer will be forced out due promotion/accesion (O's are on a team for a short time on AD, while the NG is 2-4 yrs). Keep in mind too that as an O you life in SF is short lived due to a very steep pyramid structure for rank (reach the pinacle fast if good, gone if not, due to lack of billets).

Kirk,sorry for the long wind reply, hope I have been helpful in your choice of a gratifing part time job. let me know if I can be of any assitance in the future.

-Cecil

[cecil18]

RKW,
To answer your questions, I am enlisted and did take time off from college to attend the Q-course. Total time was one year for SFQC and language school. I came the unit as an E-3 promotable and went to SFAS as an E-4.

As for NG SF like "old SF", I think that may be due to the Vetrans from Vietnam who still serve. There are still a good many of them out there and they bring a wealth of knowledge and experience with them for those who listen. Things are changing as anything will with time.

Take a look back up this listing because I answered on of your postings earlier. Did you see it?

-Cecil

[RKW]

Sorry, that was a couple of weeks ago. Either I did miss it altogether or forgot. My bad. But thanks for the info. Maybe you can help me with another question. While I was scrolling to find your earlier post, I saw Hillbilly's and it said NG Special Forces is about preparation for SFAS. So are there a lot or some of guys who aren't tabbed and haven't gone through SFAS or SFQC?

[cecil18]

RKW,

SFAS is the acronym for Special Forces Assesment and Selection. The personnel who are preparing for this 21 day period are untabbed and kept in a group/section called NQP's (Non-Qualified Personnel). They are awaiting an opportunity to attend the assesment, the major factor that determines their attendance is their state of PHYSICAL FITNESS. The once a month period we have together as a unit for these pesonnel is spent assesing their ability, if they show they have prepared to our standards (which are a little higher than required, -enusres passing) they are sent to Ft. Bragg for the selection process.

Once they have completed and BEEN SELECTED (they can complete and be a non-select) do they then proceed on to the SFQC (Special Forces Qualification Course) at a later date. Usually our unit prefers to send someone to SFAS first before Airborne school and PLDC (Priamry Leadership Development Course: initail troop leading, very basic). This saves money in the long run if the persons decides after a acouple attempts that this is not his cup of soup.

I hope this is helpful to you. If you have any more questions post them and I ll try to answer them.

-Cecil

[Ranger1]

Cecil,

Thank you for the reply. I was aware of the WO path, but was unaware that their retention in group was for a longer duration. Thanks for the heads up.Very motivating.When I was in the reserves before I enlisted active into the 75th, the WO course was at Ft. Rucker (I attended Air Assault next door to them in 1987).When did they move to Benning? Or am I off track here?

Reading your post on SFAS, what, in your experience, causes people to pass SFAS but not be selected?

Thanks again,
-Kirk

[cecil18]

Kirk,

Good catch, I was wrong on the WOC location. You are right on track, it is still in Ft. Rutgers.

You mentioned that you went to Air Assualt in '87, will you make the age cut off for OCS? (not to be nosey, just dated yourself)

The non-select SFAS canidate can be attributed to a few things, usually a combination of things or maybe just one inparticular. For example, from my own personal experience, a weak rucking ability. I met standards plus some, but fell short of the UNKNOWN standard for SFAS. I ended up coming back for a second serving, mmmm good. I have seen things like poor leadership in team week, poor attitude (confrontational, foul language), weak in obstacle course (that is a make or break if on border line). There are the few who make all the gates (weed out points), but still don't stand out like the majority and are non-select and invited back to see how bad they want it. Gut check!
It was not uncommon when I went to be in a class that was apox 300~350 in size and only 110 were left standing at the end (the others VW-verbally withdrew), only to select 75~80. The remainder were either invited back or told they should not return.

Sorry for the winded reply, I try to cover all the details. Hope I answered enough for you.

-Cecil

[RKW]

Cecil, you mentioned making the cut-off for OCS, which I believe is 30. However, ive read that after 4 or more years military expierence, you can only rise to the rank of captain. Is this true? Does someone with a lot of prior enlisted service get promoted faster/slower?
Thanks

[static]

happy late thanksgiving everyone. i was just assigned to the 19th SFG in wv and wanted to talk to some of you guys before i go in for drill on jan 22,23. i was on active duty and jump status at bragg for 4 years and after being out for a full 3 months i felt i owed it to myself to get back into it. SF being the only way to go. i managed to get an"E" slot and will go to SFAS sometime soon. if someone would drop me a line from the 19th i would greatly appreciate it and i hope to see you guys soon.

[Scout]

Static,

Hillbilly here has recently joined the 19th GRP's BN in W.V. with the NQPs. you may know him.

Scout

[static]

hillbilly,
drop me a line and tell me a little about life in the 19th. thanx.

static