CF Snipers in Afghanistan

[FNG]

Not a bad article.

Canadian snipers' unique skills merit invitation to Afghanistan
http://www.herald.ns.ca/stories/2002/02/11/f133.raw.html

By Nahlah Ayed / The Canadian Press

Kandahar, Afghanistan - Slithering among the snakes and scorpions of the desolate deserts of Afghanistan will soon be two Canadian soldiers whose own bite could potentially disable an entire army.

On any given day, Warren, whose real name cannot be revealed for security reasons, could be a desiccated bush, shivering in the wind like all the others scattered around the desert.

On another, as he was this day, he could be a mound of long, golden grass, lying in wait as two United States special forces operatives walk by, a metre or so away, completely unaware of his presence.

Warren and his partner Alex (not his real name) are snipers. They're two of several attached to the Canadian contribution to the U.S.-led coalition effort in Afghanistan to stamp out terrorism. They were specifically requested by the Americans.

As part of the conventional deployment, the snipers are arguably Canada's most valuable, least advertised and most lethal weapon.

When the time comes, the two will work alone. They will receive orders directly from the commanding officer. And they're likely to be among the first Canadians to venture deep into enemy territory in Afghanistan.

"This is, for the snipers, what we got in for. This is exactly it," said Warren, a soft-spoken, 32-year-old father of two, as he stared into the desert during an interview.

"This is everything we ever could want to do.... It's our big test."

The two snipers, seniors in their group, will indeed face a monumental challenge in the bare, dusty fields of Afghanistan - and in the unconventional war being fought in Canada's first combat role since the Korean War.

In past deployments, the pair might have largely played an observational role - a big part of the job of a sniper - but here, their marksmanship may be more instrumental.

"Usually, we go for centre of mass - like right in the sternum there - is the best part," he said, lightly touching his chest.

"It guarantees that if something goes wrong, if you're a little bit off on your wind calculation or a range estimation, then you're going to get that. You're going to hit still, no matter what."

When they finally go out, Alex, who's called the No. 1 in this twosome, will be the main sniper. He'll carry a varying combination of weapons, depending on the mission, ranging from a pistol to a high-powered weapon weighing 12 kilograms - unloaded.

Warren, the No. 2, is also a qualified sniper, and will snipe if needed. But in this combination he acts as a spotter, watching No. 1's back.

The two, who have worked together as a team for years and did their sniper courses together, have a relationship akin to a marriage, complete with the closeness, familiarity and quarrels of a couple.

"I've known him for quite a while, and he's never stabbed me in the back, never done anything like that. He'd never think about it," said Alex, a 30-year-old, confident speaker who is larger and broader than his colleague.

"He knows my social life, I know his social life. We get along really good."

On the job, while they stake out their targets or gather information, their usual chatter doesn't stop.

"Everyone thinks you have to be dead silent," said Alex.

"We talk about anything from women, to what we're going to do when we go home, to where we're going to spend our money, to what we plan on doing, when we plan on getting out."

The two men have much in common, not the least of which is that they both belonged to the Airborne Regiment which was disbanded in the mid-1990s after its deployment in Somalia.

What the two men have most in common, though, are the attributes that are essential in snipers.

They both have above-average eyesight, which allows them to pick out an object as small as a pen cap in a field, and estimate the range on a target hundreds of metres away.

They have extraordinary memories that allow them to recall fine detail, like the attributes of a man at a distance or the licence-plate number of a car.

They are fit - able to carry large loads of supplies on their backs for long assignments. They're also experts at making their own camouflage from bushes, trees, grass - whatever they can lay their hands on - as they make their way toward a position.

They also both like the solitude they get in their jobs.

"Working on my own and away from others ... I can make a difference and make my own decisions on what I do out here," said Alex.

"I'm pretty confident with myself when I do this.... I like this where we work good as a team and you're on your own."

What the two don't have in common is how they ended up in one of the most coveted jobs in the Canadian Forces.

Warren had been hunting most of his life.

His first kill was a deer. But he always knew he wanted to be a sniper.

"That's all I ever wanted to be when I joined the military, so I was happy when I made it through," he said of the course, which a small number of people take and a select few pass.

"Snipers are kind of mysterious, and no one really knows too much about them, so that was what my main interest went to.

"I like shooting and rifles - and sneaking around."

Alex, on the other hand, never thought he'd end up in the military.

He was spotted by a master sniper who thought he'd be good for the job. He tried out and made it.

On his first mission, Alex was nervous.

"A hundred per cent," he said.

"Not scared ... but there's always a nervousness that keeps your head down. It keeps you alert."

A sniper is like an insect's antenna, which reaches a destination before the main body and relays vital information that could determine what the rest of the body does.

They could be dropped by helicopter at a location, from which they will deliberately move, changing their camouflage as the landscape changes, eventually working their way on their elbows and stomachs to their intended lookout point.

Snipers could be worth their weight in gold without firing a single round.

"It's probably the most important asset that commanding officers have," said Warren.

"They can send back so much information to them.... So before (the commanding officer) even leaves, he knows where (enemy) machine guns and vehicles are, where the commanding officer is."

But of course the crosshairs are a big part of what these soldiers are all about.

Their marksmanship may only take the form of harassment, in which they will fire rounds simply to keep the enemy off guard.

But they're also trained to swiftly kill.

For most, picking off another person wouldn't be easy. But it's the job these soldiers are trained to execute with precision and confidence.

"I guess everyone deals with it in their own way," said Warren.

"I don't feel like I'm doing anything wrong. I mean for our job, I have a harder time shooting a deer - because they never did anything wrong.

"Our job is a little different, because when most soldiers have contacts ... they're shooting for their own lives or they're shooting to save the lives of their friends.

"But ours is very calculated ... you're not defending yourself when you're doing it - it's just something you go out and do. It's definitely a lot strange that way."

On this mission, there will likely be times when the two snipers will have to make decisions on their own. There will be times when they will be separated, and will have to fall back on detailed contingency plans they will labour over before they leave the base.

There may even be other times, when after holding their breath to steady a shot and fire, they will have to move with lightning speed to get away to safety.

"Sometimes, you're in places where there's a lot of enemy around. You have to wait for quite a long time to get out," Warren added.

"That gets a little nerve-racking sometimes."

Despite the complexity of their jobs, and the responsibility of making the decisions they have to make, Warren and Alex downplay their abilities and their elite status.

They say that they're not getting enough practice shooting - due to the costs involved - and they say that they have good days and bad.

"Ammunition is hard to come by to shoot more. We should be shooting more, but we don't," said Alex.

They do what they can to maintain their shooting, observational skills and memory. They continually test themselves - in addition to having to requalify for using some weapons each year - even when walking down the street.

Many of their skills become second nature.

"I'm always estimating the range to things, or trying to remember things," said Warren.

"Any little sign, I try to memorize it, or licence plates, or call signs on vehicles. But even when I'm off work, I find myself trying to do it all the time."

But being snipers doesn't put them above others involved in this mission, or any other for that matter, they say.

"The person that's making my food in the morning, you know what, they've got to be proud of that too," said Alex.

"Just because we're doing something that a lot of people can't - well, I couldn't sit behind a grill and do that. There's no way I could because that's just not me."

Their families, they say, are proud of what they're doing.

"I'm kind of living my own little dream, so they're very happy. They think it's good," said Warren.

"I didn't think Canada would ever get deployed somewhere like this.

"I'm glad we finally did. It's about time."

[UberCree]

Good article, hopefully it'll get picked up by alot of papers.

[Per Ardua]

The coles notes version was in the Winnipeg Sun this morning. Not the whole article but the high speed Pic of the sniper was cool.

[Jungle]

Read the following. I received this e-mail via a friend from the CDN LO in Ft Benning. (I removed all names for obvious reasons, but left the units). So the demand in afghanistan is no surprise... As I have stated before, I am a sniper myself and have taught sniper course, and this is an area where we are top notch.

Canadian Sniper Teams took the 1st and 2nd place at the 1st US Army International Sniper Competition. The competition was won by Cpl G and Cpl B from the 1er Bataillon Royal 22ième Régiment based in CFB Valcartier. They took the first place as well as the best Spotter Award in the week long competition held at Fort Benning, GA 1 to 7 Dec 2001. 2nd place was won by MCpl R and MCpl A from the 3rd Battalion The Royal Canadian Regiment from CFB Petawawa. The third place was won by a US Army Team from the Joint Readiness Training Center in Fort Polk, LA. Canadian Teams have made a great impression on the US Sniper community.
Official Results:

1. 1st BN R 22e Regiment (Canada)
2. 3rd BN Royal Canadian Regiment (Canada)
3. JRTC - Ops
4. HHC/1/75 RGR
5. 1st BN Royal Canadian Regiment (Canada)
6. 1st BN Princess Patricia's Canadian Light
Infantry (PPCLI) (Canada)
7. B/1/7 SFG (A)
8. National Guard Sniper School
9. British Sniper School
10. 94 Regional Support Command (USAR)
11. HHC/3-504 PIR
12. 2/29 IN
13. HHC/1-18 IN (M), 1ID
14. HHC/1-15 IN (M), 3ID

[garett]

Yeah thats really good, even better since our snipers don't get to shoot as much as they should.

[Marauder]

Damn Van Doos taking first. D'oh. ;)
Damn, four outta the top six slots to Canucks. They should be posting that on the DND.ca front page instead whatever other crap they have lately.

Jungle, have you ever taught Basic Sniping to reservists? I have heard that even if a Res CO gave his blessing for a reservist to take sniper courses the Reg wouldn't load them? Truth or myth?

[garett]

I know you aren't asking me, but yeah thats true. They won't waste a spot on a reservist, this is a trade where you actually learn how to kill people......and well.

[TonyM]

It states right in the master lesson plan intro:

102. MILITIA TRAINING. Due to the nature of this speciality, this course cannot be broken into blocks or sub-qualifications to cater to militia training. Militia candidates must complete the formal course to obtain the qualification.

Too bad, the US has a great block training system for Guard soldiers.


Jungle: You should cross post that gen to the US Army board.

[Enfield]

For the life of me I can't think why such a course should be wasted on a Mo' bum - or a jump course (outside of QOR) for that reason.

That's some great s**t in the article. The PPCLI sure is the media darling thse days. Poor RCR and R22R must be going nuts...

Now why doesn't this stuff ever come out through official channels? We place 4th in the World Handicapped Water Polo Championship and it's on the front page of the Maple Leaf, but we top an Int'l sniper competition and it's hidden..

[FNG]

It was in the Maple Leaf a few issues ago. You just have to look to find it. It's like everything in the CF. If there is a benefit out of it, they won't advertise it.

[UberCree]

Reservists CAN take the sniper crse. We had 2 spots on the course last fall, but could not send anyone. Our top 2 potential guys were on Cambrian and the only other guys that were eligible were not up to standard PT wise (plus they were students).
The crse previous to that, run by 1PP last spring had numerous slots open in it, but due to OPTEMPO units could not send people.
Too bad officers cant go, I'd go in a heart beat, however I may be an NCM again soon, so maaaaaybe...heh heh.
There is a major difference in crse's between here and the US. The US courses are geared as an intro, and it is expected that you get most of your training OTJ (On The Job). Whereas ours are considered the pinnacle, more like USMC scout /sniper. Results speak for themselves in that competition however, good job boys!

[TonyM]

Cree-

You've confirmed something I've been suspicious of for some time. I submitted numerous requests for sniper over the years, but always was told the course loading was full (along with a lot rolling of the eyes). In fact I realize now what's happening is that the requests don't go past the "round" filing cabinet on the floor. I'd appreciate it if you can keep me informed when you hear of any open slots.

[farseer]

what are the entrance requirements for the course?
(not that I would be near them anyway):mad:

[UberCree]

I'm sure Jungle can confirm. As far as I know its Recce. There is also I'm sure a PT component and a marksmanship component as well.

You need to get on your Training WO's ass. There is a new program being implimented in the CF (not sure of the details here)using PeopleSoft that records course's taken/needed/requested. So that if an opening comes up for a recce crse, the computer will pump out a list of qualified pers that have applied for crse and you would be nominated. I can't remember what the program is called but I BELIEVE its just a matter of having your request OK'd by your chain of comand then put in the system. Instead of memo's going out one week prior saying, "We have 2 slots for Jump Crse" and you end up seeing them a week after the crse is over.
I'll try to get more details on it.


The sniper crse run last spring was NOT open to reservists. I think last falls was the first.

[Per Ardua]

When I was in the Army you had to be Recce qual'd and pass the PT test in order to get nominated for sniper. They only took the best back then.....Oh yeah, you had to shoot right handed also cuz the actionon the weapon was right handed
I know this because I am right handed except for shooting which I do lefty cuz when my dad taught me he checked which was my master eye and sure enuff its my left one....Even though I am a righty I just cant shoot anything but lefty so when I was considered for the course they did a shooting test in the Bn and I was dropped as soon as I shouldered the weapon :mad:
So I remustered to the airforce instead.......fix their ass :D

[bender]

Funny thing, my master eye is my left eye and i shoot right handed. Would that ruin my chances for the course if the oppertunity ever came up?

[Per Ardua]

I dont think so. I've always shot left cuz of my master eye and to train me to shoot right would just take too much time. As for you you already shoot right and to overcome the deficiency in your weaker eye can be learned through sheer repetition.....think of it as shooting right side would feel weird to me and while I could eventually switch over your shooting would get better than mine a lot quicker due to the right side feeling natural to you.

[Jungle]

I'll start with pre-requisites:
- qual'd infantry basic recce
- passed the PWT max 6 months before the start of the course
- recommendation from CO
- the left hand rule is pretty well inexistant now (you can fire the C3A1 effectively from both hands with attached bipod)
- should not wear glasses or lenses
- should be non-smoker
- pass PWT with 72/84 points during week 1 of course ( those who do not pass are RTU'd)

Now, the reason why reservists are usually not loaded on the course is that the QL-4 recce taught in the res F is not equivalent to the reg F one. I taught a res F QL-4 Recce in summer 2000 that was 5 weeks long (vs 8 weeks in the reg F). There was a plan at some point to break down the sniper course in 2 components: "marksman" and "sniper", but the plan was scrapped (marksman would have been training mostly on the firing and spotting portion, while sniper would have taken care of camouflage, stalking etc...). Now if you do this in 2 different courses, most people will never make it to Sniper, for different reasons (carreer course, tour, posting etc...)

Ubercree is right about the differences between US and CDN courses: when the CDN Army decided to reintroduce sniper trg, Inf School pers were sent to the USMC Scout Sniper School for instr qual, and they based our course largely on that.

TonyM, good idea, i will cross post to the US gen...

"Without warning, without conscience"

[TonyM]

Last info on req's for sniper from my command (Oct last year) was in order:
QL3 Inf
PWT Marksman
QL4 Comms
QL4 Recce
$5000 bribe

(just kidding on the last one!)

Anyways I got tired of beating my head against the wall so I went down to Surgical Shooting in Wa.

[Disturbance]

I shoot all fucked up.
C7 left
C9 C6 right (on the ground) but left in the shoulder
pistols right.

the only annoying thing is the gas mask filter is on the right (for my C7) and my chin strap is on the right (for my C7).

[farseer]

how is the Surgical Shooting setup, i've been to the website and they have some pretty cherry courses. what about cost?

[TonyM]

All the sniper instructors are USMC Scout/Sniper Instructors. Fantastic training, they can even put on the CF basic sniper course for you.
Some of the best money I've spent, it cost me about $1500cdn for the basic sniper course (specify you're military, they'll "treat" you to a mini- USMC course and you'll shoot the qualification at the end) , ammo, food, lodging.
Here's a review:

http://www.snipercountry.com/CarlTaylorSurgicalShootingI.html

Let me know if you're going, I've got a contact for Black Hills Match ammo down there. Excellent prices. You'll need around 600-700 rnds for the basic course.

[farseer]

will do, but it won't be for a while though. I was planning on it after CRIC as a treat to myself.

[TonyM]

Maybe a few more cric-ets would like to go when they get back. Keep in touch, I'll probably go down to do some advanced stuff. I like that Aerial Platform Sniper Training course. See if I can combine that with a static jump or two seeing they'll have a helo and a jumpmaster there.

...don't bring Douglas, I doubt there's enough booze at Pendleton...hahahahahahah

[farseer]

hahahah, are you kidding , if he finds out there will be no way to stop him. The apres CRIC outing sounds like a good idea i bet i could motivate a few to go, with all the queens money in there pocket it shouldn't be hard.

[Infanteer]

Fucken eh, count me in.

[FNG]

Tony, how did you arrange firearms while you were down South?

I like what I see with Surgical Shooting, but I am also interested in first taking the Urban Rifle 1 & 2 courses down at Thunder Ranch.

I might be visiting Victoria for a bit this summer. You'll have to let me buy you a beer.

[TonyM]

I brought my own. But Carl can arrange something for you, I know at one time he had something going with Accuracy International. That'd be worth it on it's own just to blast away with a .338 for a week. Mind you, you'd need a dufflebag full of money for the ammo.
Let me know when you're inbound, I don't get out much now (we've got two small children 8mos & 2yrs) so I can definitly use a beer! When you planning to be over here? I'm trying to get on the recce course this summer as a vacation. After 2 yrs of Op Parenthood, it'll be like going to club med. More than 4hrs of sleep a day, excercise, regular meals, ...my eyes are getting misty....

[farseer]

FNG, if you do go let me know how the rifle courses go, I'm looking into that too. Bloody 2 times a year at the range doesn't do shit for my shooting skills.
we have a range that just opened up here called the shooting egde (theshootingedge.com) good guy from our unit former PPCLI 3 battalion, sniper etc.
it has a rifle bay as well, 75m i think. He plans on running some good pistol and tactical rifle courses.
James Cox is his name.

[TonyM]

We just had Surgical Shooting's Carl Taylor and Micah Clark at our unit for the weekend range ex. Great guys. They helped out a lot of shooters on the range to show what some professional coaching can do.
It was an added bonus them being in the mess to watch the hockey game.
We're going to try to get something going for them to put on a sniper course through our rifle association. A few obstacles to clear, but our OC is supportive so stay tuned.

[Marauder]

Hey Tony, can you send me the MLOC plan thing you mentioned on the "official" board? LOL Sounds like an A1 Grade idea, I'll run it past the Grownups and see what they say for next year.

Also, does "Boris" have any extra CADPAT material ends, like something I could make a "do-rag" out of? I'd shell out a few bucks if he does.

[TonyM]

Send me you're email and you can have it. The more it's out there, the better the chances are people won't have to do any more dull, mindless MLOC.
I'll ask about the material, but last word was he wasn't letting any extra go.

[Marauder]

If you could shoot it to maraudinglancer@hotmail.com I'd appreciate it. As for the material ends, just if he has any decent sized material scraps he can't use for anything else...
Thanks.

Well lads, I'm off to Montreal for four days and three nights of drunken debauchery. Huzzah!!

PS - Who minds if I call to get little bit of bail money? Any takers? Anyone? Damn. ;)

[cdn_airborne]

So what's the deal on the CADPAT smocks and shit? Is there a tentative release date?

[TonyM]

Latest update: The smock material (45/65 treated cotton/nylon) is printed and should be shipped out next week. The pack/webbing nylon is not printed yet. Smock pattern is set, maker is waiting for the material. Buttons/zippers/etc have not been yet been recieved, but not anticipating any problems.
I estimate another 4-5 weeks.

[Marauder]

Tuesday, March 19, 2002
Canadian snipers rack up enemy toll

By Free Press news services

BAGRAM, AFGHANISTAN -- Canada's snipers have ducked mortars and dodged bullets in eastern Afghanistan in the last two weeks. And they were nearly shot to pieces by a U.S. Apache helicopter gunship -- it stopped firing just in the nick of time.

They are said to have the highest number of confirmed kills of any regular army unit in the battle, though they deny it.

And three of them, along with three U.S. special forces soldiers, also rescued a company of the American 101st Airborne Division pinned down by enemy fire on the first day of Operation Anaconda -- the mission to find and destroy al-Qaida and Taliban forces in the rugged region south of Gardez.

The commander of U.S. forces in Afghanistan. Gen. Tommy Franks, declared yesterday that Operation Anaconda was "an unqualified and absolute success" despite claims by Afghan allies that most of the enemy fighters got away.

In an interview on a castle-shaped rock from which al-Qaida fighters gave them days of misery earlier this month, one of two detachments of Canada's snipers described an arduous first week of battle. Because of the job they do, the three youthful but cool professional sharpshooters want to be identified only by pseudonyms with their real ages, ranks and home towns.

They landed at first light on March 2, on the first U.S. helicopter flying in with troops from the fabled Screaming Eagles. The troops started taking small-arms fire at the top of the first ridge they hit.

The Americans were pinned down but the three snipers and three special forces troops found a way out. They moved forward and sought high ground.

From there, they began picking off al-Qaida fighters, who were shooting from behind rock piles. A one-hour firefight ensued.

"As soon as we got rid of one guy, another one would come up -- and another one," said Master Cpl. Alex, a 30-year-old raised in Ottawa and Halifax.

Soon after that battle ended, another began.

Troops from the 101st were able to move into blocking positions while the six engaged a determined enemy.

"The six of us suppressed fire and neutralized the enemy -- they were either dead or they ran away," said Alex. "Most of them were killed, as far as we could see."

The snipers were in their element -- free-ranging, aggressive, taking the initiative.

But their talent for concealment nearly cost them their lives at the muzzles of an Apache helicopter that came in, guns blazing, chasing an enemy target near them.

Lying prone in their British desert fatigues with padded elbows, front torsos and legs, they were almost invisible against the dry valley floor.

They heard the sound, looked back, saw the dirt spitting up in two rows -- and rolled. The pilot must have seen them at the last moment because the strafing stopped less than a metre from their position.

Their biggest concern, it seemed, was their coveted .50-calibre sniper rifles almost got hit. "I don't know how the .50 didn't get hit," said Alex. "We laughed after that. You gotta."

For the sake of speed, they were moving without their 50-kilogram rucksacks and spare ammunition. But then they were running low and needed special optics equipment.

Under fire, Cpl. Ed, 25, of Manuels outside St. John's, Nfld., ran the 100 metres back down one side of the ridge and up the other -- and then back again with their gear in tow.

They were 3,500 metres high. At such altitudes, the air was gaspingly thin even at a brisk walk. Although extremely fit, Ed was nearly passing out after the two-way sprint, with AK-47 rounds nipping at his heels.

But Ed, who's developed an uncanny Sean Connery imitation, didn't stop there.

Ed grabbed his M-203 grenade launcher and started firing at the al-Qaida fighters who were giving them trouble from a nearby creek bed.

"We don't know what happened," said Alex. "All we know is, their firing stopped."

The snipers also helped extract U.S. troops in trouble.

Under cover of darkness, they and their U.S. special forces comrades led soldiers of the Airborne out of the danger area, scouting ahead for enemy threats and bringing the Americans up a little way at a time until they eventually linked up with friendly forces.

"The mortars were the worst thing," said Master Cpl. Warren, 30, who grew up in Kincardine.

Warren knows about mortars. He's a qualified mortarman.

Mortars are an infantry battalion's longest range weapon. Lobbed from up to 5,684 metres away and guided by forward observers, they pack a powerful punch. They don't have to be terribly accurate. Their kill radius is 40 metres.

All escaped unscathed physically, but Warren admits the experience will stay with him a long time.

The snipers returned to base in Bagram, near Kabul, on March 11. Two days later -- last Wednesday -- the three were out again.

This time they were part of Operation Harpoon, with Canadian troops on "the Whale," a mountain overlooking the Shah-e-Kot valley where al-Qaida fighters were putting up stiff resistance.

Operation Harpoon, carried out in conjunction with Operation Anaconda, consisted of 500 Canadian and 100 U.S. troops under the command of Lt.-Col. Pat Stogran.

[Jungle]

That says a lot about the few dozen Snipers in the Army, and their training program. Makes me damn proud... Good going boys, keep up the excellent work !!!

[Bill P.]

I to am very proud that CDN snipers are making a big contribution, says alot about them, and their quality of training(noticed in the newspaper they're wearing Brit desert clothing!).
A very "niche" profession within the ranks of the Infantry, hopefully this exposure could serve to bolster their particular profession, to the point where DND might invest more in that kind of training for those in the CF who meet the standards(beats being regarded as one of Cretin's boyscouts!)

[garett]

Thats a pretty good article. Too bad the average Canadian doesn't have a clue whats going on over there and even worst most don't care. Thats nothing new I guess.

[TonyM]

Now that's some decent press. Good on those guys. Never fucking mind what some actor is going to wear at the Oscars, that is the real world.
I've watching the news channels last few days anticipating something about this. Nothing. Zero. Only BBC had anything to say about Canada, brief but good, because they're sending in the RM.
All the other countries have reporters tagging along and doing spiels on their forces, except us (BBC's "Panorama" just did a really good one with the Para's in Kabul). If it wasn't for the fast food & feminine hygene advertising dollars, CBC and CTV wouldn't cover a nucular exchange if they didn't have to.

[Bill P.]

Considering that most of the press in this country spews nothing but left-wing Liberal bullshit, and those CBC town forums on the state of the war are making me feel as if were all living back in the former USSR! However Global news/ National Post seem to place a more positive/patriotic spin on the role our troops are doing in Afghanistan. Reading that paper awhile ago, it dedicated an entire page to the situation our troops are facing, while the Glob&Mail(aka PRAVDA) did a few columns, then spent more righting about how good a job the Libs are doing!:rolleyes:
Even the article where several of our troops are up for bravery medals, when they rescued a man dangling from the ramp of an airborne chinook, was written up better in NP, than in the GM.
Nice to see our PM flying to the Mexican Globalization conference on an CF airbus, while our own people face a shortage of transport craft!

[garett]

I printed off that article and my dad took one to work with him for people to read at City Hall. I took one to work tonight and photocopied it a bunch of times. I gave one copy each to our recent BMQ graduates and passed the rest out to the platoon. Not just most Canadians, but most soldiers, don't have a clue what is going on in Afghanistan.

[TonyM]

Here's a picture of the .50 used by our guys over there. In fact this one is used by one of the five.

[TonyM]

not working. hmmmm.....

[max_burke]

This it?

http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcbros/tactical/tac50a1.jpg

[garett]

I've seen this rifle fired a couple of times and I got to fuck around with it on a couple of occassions. Not the type of weapon you can crawl around with much.

[Gordo]

I have tossed a few rounds out of this weapon...it feels like your eyes are going to pop out of your head when you fire it. That’s probably why you can only fire a limited amount during training because of retinal detachment. It makes a huge weapon signature and a big shock wave to either side of the gun. I used one with a 20 pw leo scope which made it real forgiving to fire at long range although it does have a strange eye relief. This is one slick peace of kit and its obvious that our boys know how to use it well.

[apfsds]

My buddy let me fire a half dozen from his Ruger #1, .458 Winchester. I've been shooting for over 35 years and that sucked the wax and, I dare say, more than a few brain cells out of my ears! Actually, I'm sure it drove the earplugs deeper. Given a cartridge almost twice the size, I'll take my hat off to the operators of this thing that can do it without developing a flinch!! Just interested, but does anyone know if ear protection is req'd when firing this thing? If so, what about #2 who is supposed to be security for #1, what's he do, ear defenders on, ear defenders off? I just can't see laying that close to this thing and retaining your hearing without it.

[UberCree]

I'm finding the 2400 m shot claim very hard to believe. At that distance with a 10X scope a man size target would be incredibly small. Even with sub 1 MOA accuracy at 2400 m without wind, barometric pressure, temperature, elevation considerations a perfect shot group would be over 2 feet. Also, at that distance the round would be sub sonic and wobbling like mad, more of an indirect fire weapon.

My guess is they were taking pot shots for a while and lucked out. Still pretty cool though.

[Bill P.]

Alot of factors come into play w/ such a long distance shot. A kill at 2400m+ is possible, especially if the operator is using a scope(telescope.....!) w/ 16-20X power, instead of the "usual" 10X. Also take into consideration these are highly skilled snipers using this weapon, and are more than familiar w/ the nuances it presents.
2 years ago in Arizona, just outside of Phoenix, my buddy and I went to this range, and we got to fire a Barrett M82 .50 w/ a 16X scope. Hits at 1400m+ were quite possible, and I'm no where near as good as the snipers we have in Afghanistan....2400m kill....with the people we have over there...I more than believe it!

[Jungle]

Ubercree
As you mentionned, if a 2 ft group is possible at 2400m, (1 in. group at 100m) than let's take a look at the size of a target. A human chest is approximately 18 in wide, add all the clothing and kit and we're pretty close to 24 in. So technically, a first round hit would be possible about 50% of the time, which is what we ask of snipers with a 7.62mm rifle for long range harassment fire (probably the only occasion we can legally harass someone). I also believe luck was a factor, but hey... what's done is done. Cheers !!!

[TonyM]

There's so much going on at that range, but if he was aiming at it, calculated his windage and elevation, had his spotter calling it out, and hit it, that's some shooting. In arid mountains not much for down range indicators either, I'd reckon. Great job.

I can't imagine shooting at that range. I've never fired a .50, maybe some day. I've shot out to 1000m with a 7.62 with a 10x. You need to time your heartbeat as it takes the crosshairs off target. 3 times, 2 hits. It took about 5 days of practice to get to that level. To think in terms of that distance, times 2.5, is truly amazing. These guys are real pros.
Anyways, I doubt he'll be buying beers for a while.

[rw4th]

Canadian snipers were reportedly outstanding in the fighting around the mountainous al-Qaeda bastion east of Gardez, code-named Operation Anaconda. The battle pitted the two Canadian sniper teams against an enemy that showered the assaulting coalition troops with mortars and machine-gun
fire as soon as they jumped from their helicopters. One member of the team, a corporal from Newfoundland, said on his first night in combat he and his partner got an al-Qaeda machine gun in their
sights as it was hailing bullets down on U.S. troops below. Crawling up into a good position, they set up their .50-calibre rifle – the MacMillan Tac-50, a weapon the corporal compares to having superhuman
power in your hands. "Firing it feels like someone slashing you on the back of your hockey helmet with a hockey stick." When he hit his first target, an enemy gunman at a distance of 1,700 meters, he said all that ran through his mind was locating his next target. "All I thought of was Sept. 11th and all those people who didn't have a chance and the American reporter who was taken hostage, murdered and his wife getting the videotape of the execution; that is my justification." A master corporal from Ontario, the lead sniper of his three-man team, said when they first landed in the combat zone "our spider senses were tingling.... It was night and we didn't know what to expect." By daylight, after coming under enemy machine-gun fire, he managed to ease his rifle barrel between two rocks and quickly located an enemy sniper hiding behind a small piece of corrugated steel between two trees. He guessed the distance at 1,700 meters and fired one shot through the metal, killing the man instantly. He said afterward he remembered thinking: "That's one less bullet that's gonna be coming at us, one less person we have to think about." During the next four days of fighting, the Newfoundland corporal set what is believed to be a record for a long-distance shot under combat conditions, hitting an enemy gunman at a distance of 2,430 meters. The days of crawling, shooting and long hours waiting in cover left the Canadian snipers exhausted. "You don't realize what you've done to your body and how tired you are till it's all done. I think we slept 14 or 15 hours when we got back," the master corporal said. Three of them, along with U.S. Special Forces soldiers, also rescued a company of the U.S. 101st Airborne Division that was pinned down by enemy fire on the first day of Operation Anaconda. They also participated in Operation Harpoon, with Canadian troops on "the whale," a mountain overlooking the Shah-e-Kot valley where al-Qaeda
fighters were putting up stiff resistance. Operation Harpoon, carried out in conjunction with Operation Anaconda, consisted of 500 Canadian and 100 U.S. troops under the command of Lieutenant-Colonel Pat Stogran, who leads Canadian Forces in Afghanistan in the biggest ground offensive since the Korean War. Lieutenant Justin Overbaugh, of the American scout platoon to which the Canadian snipers were attached, said it was a pleasure to work with the Canadian troops. "Their professionalism was amazing," Lieut. Overbaugh said. "The Canadians were very large assets to the mission. I would have loved to have 12 Canadian sniper teams out there. I'd have no problems fighting alongside of them again." He said the Canadian snipers had equipment far superior to theirs. Their rifles had longer range than the U.S. weapons and better high-tech sights. Lieut. Overbaugh said if another mission comes up, he will request the Canadian sniper teams be sent with his unit. Senior military officials in Ottawa made a point of praising their work at the time. "The sniper teams suppressed enemy mortars and heavy machine-gun positions with deadly accuracy," Vice-Admiral Greg Maddison said after Operation Harpoon ended. "Their skills are credited with likely having saved many allied lives."

Arthur A. Durante, Jr.
Deputy Chief of Doctrine
Combined Arms and Tactics Directorate
US Army Infantry School
Ft Benning, GA 31905-5000
(706) 545-7114 or DSN 835-7114

[UberCree]

I may have to recant my position of disbelief on the 2450 m kill. I was talking to a friend in 2PP yesterday who told me some interesting stories about the sniper in question. I guess he is an insanely good shot ex., He was able to hit a paint can at 1500 m ...one shot. None the less if the 2450m was after plinking for a while then its no big deal, but if it was a one shot one hit, then damn, thats incredible.

[Royal Highland Fusilier]

Just a bump on another good thread.

Yes, I'm burning time.

[SunsHunter]

I wouldnt argue that whomever is a great shot but i think a lot of luck also comes into effect. I've spoken with soldiers on shooting teams who claim they are so good they can put bullets through bullet holes with the C7. Thats great. I've also spoken with weapons techs etc.. who tell me that at 100 meters theres a certian amount of error with each shot. Basically if you sand bag the rifle into position and shoot repeated shots they can land up to 2 cms (or whatever +/-) apart from each other because the rifle just isn't that accurate.

Im a pretty good shot myself. I regularly score 80+ on the canadian infantry pwt3. Hitting a paintcan at 1500 meters though? Thats pretty amazing. I've used 10 power and 16 power fixed scopes and looking at a human at 800 - 1000 is pretty tough. Actually hitting a paint can at 1500 seems impossible (to do over and over) even with those types of optics

[CDN SNIPER]

Its a 16x Fixed Scope Not a 10x Fixed.