Officer or Enlisted

[HS wrestler]

I am a 16 year old HS junior. For as long as I can remember all I've wanted to be is a soldier. Like many teengers, i realize, I want to take the Airborne/Ranger/SF route. My question is what would be better, be an SF officer or an SF NCO? I could go to college and do ROTC or maybe USMA or VMI (im probably going to apply) and get commissioned as an officer. The think is that from the research I've done, I've found that a Captain will only spend about 18 months as an ODA team leader, then never see that team (or any other most likely) ever again. Or I could enlist and work my way the NCO ranks. Maybe if I'm lucky I could make to Sergeant First Class (E-7) as a senior weapons sergeant (or one of the other MOS) or maybe even to Master Sergeant (E-8) as Team (operations) Sergeant. Also, can I do ROTC is college to get the "field" (ROTC is far from the field, i know) experience, opt not to get my commission, enlist and then work my way up the NCO ranks? Thanks for reading my post. Any and all information/advice is welcomed.

De Oppresso Libre!!

[TonyM]

Try getting a hold of the book "The Company They Keep", it's a good look at life in SF.

[Tracy]

1. Graduate from HS.
2. Graduate from a 4 yr college.
3. Enlist in the Ranger Regiment.
4. Re-Enlist for SFAS; if you're still interested.

A really dirty, low-down, sneaky way of paying for college is to take ROTC, then refuse the commission. The Army will demand four years of your life as an enlisted man. The bad news is they will pick the MOS and unit your get assigned to.

There's enough scholarship money out there that this should be a last resort. The Army now has a "College First" enlistment option; where they let you go to college for two years, then go on active duty.

You're on the right track though, college first, hoo-ahh second.

Good Luck

[Bulldog]

Some colleges, such as Texas A&M where I went, allow Jr's and Sr's to be in ROTC as "drill and ceremonies" cadets without taking a contract. Of course, if your on scholarship, you can't go that route.

Bulldog

[gear_guru]

I understand the Army has a tremedous college loan payback program for enlisting. You might want to try that route.

[tatertot]

I'm a high school senior, and have recently been admitted to USMA. I too considered enlisting in the army to get into SF as an enlisted soldier. I decided on officer because that was is the best way that I can serve my country. If you decide to goto college and be an officer, definitely attempt to go to USMA. This is the only program that guarantees commision to its graduates, and the field training is much greater and with more opportunities. than that of a ROTC student.
Really what it comes down is what you would rather do, to be an officer or an enlisted man. Only you can decide that, but you should talk it over with your parents and do research on the lives of both.

[HS wrestler]

Thanks for the advice Tatertot, it's great to hear from someone going to West Point. Ultimately, I want to be in the field, as long as much as I can. That's just how I am. I love to hike and mountaineer. I'm actually going out to Wyoming to spend a month in the woods as part of a NOLS (National Outdoor Leadership School) program. The thing with officers is that most (but not all) lead from the rear. I want to lead from the front, in the bush with my men, and it is my feeling that the best way to get the opportunity is to be a senior NCO. Also, in no way am I disrespecting the Academy, but fresh "butter bars" never get any respect from enlisted men. Even as you go out the chain, enlisted dislike for officers remains, especially in SF. In Anna Simons's "The Company They Keep", she talks about how the 3rd SF Group (the book is about them) got a new Group Commander who went to West Point, and how "spit and polished" he was. In my opinion (and just mine,everyone is free to have his own), SF has become too conventionalized. The reason I want to join SF is to avoid all the Spit and Polish of standards while still wanting to serve and fight for my country. While I might disagree with you on some things, I still have the utmost respect for you for attending the Academy. Duty, Honor, Country.

De Oppresso Libre!!!

[HS wrestler]

Thanks for the advice Tatertot, it's great to hear from someone going to West Point. Ultimately, I want to be in the field, as long as much as I can. That's just how I am. I love to hike and mountaineer. I'm actually going out to Wyoming to spend a month in the woods as part of a NOLS (National Outdoor Leadership School) program. The thing with officers is that most (but not all) lead from the rear. I want to lead from the front, in the bush with my men, and it is my feeling that the best way to get the opportunity is to be a senior NCO. Also, in no way am I disrespecting the Academy, but fresh "butter bars" never get any respect from enlisted men. Even as you go out the chain, enlisted dislike for officers remains, especially in SF. In Anna Simons's "The Company They Keep", she talks about how the 3rd SF Group (the book is about them) got a new Group Commander who went to West Point, and how "spit and polished" he was. In my opinion (and just mine,everyone is free to have his own), SF has become too conventionalized. The reason I want to join SF is to avoid all the Spit and Polish of standards while still wanting to serve and fight for my country. While I might disagree with you on some things, I still have the utmost respect for you for attending the Academy. Duty, Honor, Country.

De Oppresso Libre!!!

[srff]

Have you looked at Norwich University. They have the Mountain and Cold Weather Company and Rescue Team. You will get a great education at Norwich, which is the oldest private military college in the country and you will get good field/ mountain experience in MCW. Norwich is expensive but they will pay your room and board if you are on ROTC scholarship. The only time West Point guys go to the field is in the summer. If you go officer you will have to deal with a lot of spit and polish before you even get close to SF. There are a lot of Norwich grads in the NCO ranks through out spec ops.
Good luck and don't lose sight of your goals. 4 years in the Rangers(can't enlist SF right away) or Seals will do a lot for you when you go to college and you will still be young enoough to come back in as an officer, when you finish your degree. Going to college first also has advantages; you'll have your degree out of the way and you'll be more mature and therefore more likely to make it through your training.
ESSAYONS

[This message has been edited by srff (edited 03-17-2000).]

[JOE-BOO]

Taterlot....I am not sure who you have talkied to but I assure you that West Pointer's do not get more "Field time"...as a matter of fact I do not think you and HS Wrestler understand what "field time" is....but, that is OK for now...I did not understand what an officer was when I signed on for this gig. Your assumptions or "knowledge" is flawed to be sure....West Point has nothing to do with the Army out side of being a commissioning source during the school year and during the summer their structured programs are scary to watch.Which one makes a better office???? I do not know for sure, but for the amount of "brain power" that school draws in...it does not get its dollars worth on the way out...talk about the inability to make a decision...thse guys constantly lok around for approval on EVERYTHING....freakin' "sheeple"

This "field time" you are talking about is not very effective in either place...ROTC or USMA, but you actually can get more throughout the year in ROTC and have a life too...plus you can join the Guard... get more time in "the Field", time in service pay when you commission, and start leading as a cadet...all the while gettting a better handle on how to work with NCOs than the other route....this is important....very important....they do not give a shit where you graduated from....your grade point average...your goals for yourself...or how HOO-ah you think you are....you must speak their language or they will be inneffective for you...this is something that Pointer's "generally " do not have...Why??? I think it is because they are so focused on mission.....mission....mission...that they forget who is getting tired, cold, hungry, bruised, cut, and pissed so they can please the CO.....They tend not see the subtle shades of grey that exist in an imperfect organization that actually functions better without perfection as a factor for success....
Talk to more people, before you jump on that limb

[Ramius]

If you couldn’t get into USMA which would be a better substitute: VMI, The Citadel, or Norwich. My plans were to go to VMI.

Take care,
Ramius

[tatertot]

By field time i meant the fact that cadets train throughout the summers and can attend army schools such as jump school, air assault, etc. Also after junior year you are sent to an army unit to act as a 2nd LT i believe. So in that sense there is field experience at west point.

[JSOCMarine]

Fellas,
Allow me to lend some perspective gained from 24 years as a Marine, with both enlisted and commissioned service (Infantry and Recon).

Some of you are making some very broad statements that simply are not accurate. I caution you to not form your opinions based entirely from reading books, the internet, your uncle, or "third shitter from the left" sources.

First of all, the statement that "fresh butter bars" never get any respect is total crap. When I was an enlisted Marine I met and served with many 2nd Lts who were outstanding leaders, even if inexperienced. I sure respected them, so did others. Did I see some bad or marginal 2nd Lts? Sure I did, but they were in the minority.

When I became a 2nd Lt after having been a SSGT, I had no trouble being respected by my Marines. Neither did my peers, most of whom were not former enlisted men. We were in combat by the way, not garrison.

Get rid of this idea that there is this big "hatred or disrespect" thing among officers and enlisted. Respect must be earned, by both sides of the equation. I loved my Marines, and the fact that so many of them still call me and keep in touch after all these years tells me that they knew how I felt about them, and they feel the same respect and loyalty for me.

You guys are falling victim to the old myth that officers are all entirely screwed up, and that enlisted, particularly senior enlisted, can do no wrong and do not need leadership. Let me tell you, and others with experience will back me up on this; there are many absolutely inept enlisted men out there. Every service and most units have their 10%, SOF included. A bad officer is a sad sight to behold, observing or working with a bad Master Sergeant is downright depressing.

I have served and operated with many SOF units and have seen a SEAL platoon absolutely love and develop their Ensign and Lieutenant, yet to a man they all despised their Chief, who apparently was a poor leader. Does this make all SEAL Chiefs bad leaders or not worthy of respect? Of course not.

As far as most officers leading from the rear; that statement is simply not true. "The Rear" is a matter of perspective. When I was a SSGT I thought my 1stSgt was a REMF, he thought the SgtMaj was one, etc. I was both enlisted and officer in Recon, and I say the myth that officers don't do anything in Recon (or SF, or SEALS,etc) is just that, a myth. I wrote an extensive post on this in another string, I recommend you read it.

As far as one commissioning source being superior to another, that in my opinion, is total bullshit. I have seen Academy grads who were awesome the day they put on a pair of boots, and I have seen some that inferior. The same goes for ROTC, VMI, Citadel, Norwich,etc., I have served with guys from all of them and the same variance exists from each source. Former enlisted do no better, in fact I think they either make very good officers or very poor ones. I once saw a great Force Recon team leader get commissioned and become so poor of an officer that he was eventually shitcanned from the Corps. Great Sergeant - terrible Lieutenant; go figure.

You can learn a lot from this particular site. I would advise you to do so. Just remember that at the end of the day you will have to go and earn whatever title you desire. Once you do that, the big job of earning respect and credibility among your unit or community begins. Easier said than done.

You see fellas, first you have to actually make it into the units you fancy yourselves leading, either as a senior enlisted or officer. Then perhaps you will realize how hard it is to lead a 4 man team of high-speed men, much less a platoon, company, battalion,etc.

Good luck to all, our country needs men like you! Semper Fi!

[SpecOps_Guy]

JSOC Marine:

You hit the nail on the head. It comes down to individual performance and character FIRST. This in turn will enhance team leadership and performance.

"Leadership is character in action." -The Noncom’s Guide, 1948, p. 15

US Army All The Way!!!

SpecOps Guy

[abn_rngrr]

I served under two platoon leaders and a company commander that were West Point grads. They were excellent officers.

[JOE-BOO]

I submit to you that it is the person...as peers of these people I see much more of the "true side" of these leaders than most...however, I mentioned that I am not sure which would TEND to be better. PT...probably West Point slightly...as far as summer training goes...the programs are similar in all he respects mentioned a few posts above...one thing very hoo-ah is the opportunity of scuba school to Pointer's lately due to the CG up there is scuba qual and pulled some strings for some slots....the Army has equalized the playing field in the last couple of years. Examples: Male Pointer's used to be combat arms with few exceptions. The other slots were divided into the other two commissioning sources....not so any more They also were granted REGULAR Army commissions. Not so anymore....all 2LTs are now on Reserve status for thier initial term...active duty or not....active duty = "oblgated volunteer".

I would like to advise without my bias, that one is not better than another overall, rather for the individual...I would have made a very poor West Pointer though....

[Razor]

I'd like to clarify a couple points. 1) "Field time"--If you take your average USMA cadet, yes, you can totally avoid putting on a ruck and playing in the woods during the academic year, if you so desire. There is, however, several opportunities to go play soldier if one chooses. I was a member of the infantry tactics club. Back when I was there, cadets could still go to Ranger School in the summer, so guess who the cadet leadership was for that group. We'd get together once a month or so, draw our bang-bang sticks, and go through the planning, rehearsal and execution phase of the missions you run in Suck School (raid, ambush, recon), usually under the leadership of a very recent Suck School grad, along with Ranger and SF qual'd officers and NCOs in the academic staff. We'd also run live fire ranges and do land nav training. Now, I understand, they also get to jump with active units (if already jump qual'd; last I heard they jumped with 5th SFG), they can go to Sandhurst over their spring break to do field time in Scotland and Wales, they can go to Germany to earn German jump wings, the Abzeichung fuer Leistungen, die Schuetzenschnurr und das Sportabzeichen. All decent "field soldier" training, in my opinion, but then, I'm one of those spit and polish, never spent time in the field West Pointers that are only worried about their careers. There's also an armor tactics club, but they're more sand table oriented, due to training aid constraints (tough to borrow an M1A1 and boogie around the mountains by USMA). There's also a combat shooting club that competes with other schools in the skills that comprise their namesake.

2) Opportunity to learn military-applicable skills--As for the technical mountain experience, there's a mountaineering club that spends a LOT of time in the 'Gunks (if you don't know, you ain't a climber) doing trad routes year round with some really nice, school provided racks. The sky-diving team has been nationally ranked for many years, and even spend time training with the Golden Knights. Those boys put in some serious canopy time, devoting almost all school breaks in the AY and most weekends jumping. The SCUBA club, when I was there, was sport oriented, but lead by a former SF Scuba team leader O-3. They were by no means a tactical club, but they got a good taste of some mission profiles from the OIC. And then there's the Sandhurst competiton, very similar to the Ranger Challenge that ROTC holds. Cadets can choose that as their mandatory springtime intramural sport. I did that for two years, and spent far too much time literally running through the mountains with a PRC-77 and combat kit while training for the competition.

3) "West Point has nothing to do with the Army out side of being a commissioning source during the school year..."--11Z, come on. I almost didn't even grace this one with a response, but then decided I should at least clear up some misconceptions. I'd say that since I carried a green DD-2 all four years, I was considered by at least the DoD as having something to do with the military. Add to that the fact that ~95% of my professors were AD officers who spent a good deal of time discussing life in the Army (not just one class a week, but EVERY class EVERY day). Oh, and lets not forget the endless professional development classes, and the sleep inducing morals and ethics as an officer classes, and the honor classes, and the fact we fell under the UCMJ, and the military intercession classes after Christmas break, and...Starting to get my point?

4) Summer break--I think the most leave (yup, it was leave, not summer break; something to do with soldiers having to have a valid DA31 when away from their unit, hmmm)I ever had over the summer months was 21 days. The rest of the time was spent either in Beast, Camp Buckner, Ft Knox, at Airborne School, serving at Ft Benning as a Drill Cadet, serving as a Beast 1SG, or going to VTARNG Mountain Warfare School. Most summers I had less than two weeks to go play civilian at home before it was time to go back to learning how to be a solider. How long is Basic and Advanced Camp again? What do ROTC cadets do their freshman and sophomore summers? By no means do I intend to disparage ROTC as a commissioning source, but all those inept, unsure, confused USMA grads sure do spend a lot of time playing Army over their four years.

5) Dealing with NCOs--Ok, you have a valid point here. Frankly, USMA grads don't deal with NCOs very much at all. There are AD NCOs at the bn, rgt and Corps level, but they're few in number, and daily interaction is almost neglibible. USMA could be well served by having more NCOs around and giving cadets more interaction with them, so that the cadets learn about them, what they're like, what their role is, how important they are in a unit, how they run the troops, what they can do that the officer doesn't have to do, etc. I took me a while to figure out what my plt sgt and SLs were there for, and that was time I'll never get back. Really a shame, but that's one of the most important lessons a new 2LT has to learn. As for prior enlisted making a better officer, that depends on the person. Some are outstanding, and I've seen others that were still NCOs at heart, doing their NCOs' jobs and really pissing them off. General statements are very dangerous and usually inaccurate (4 out of 5 dentists...).

Yes, I probably went off a bit here, but I just get tired of people with no REAL experience crapping on the ol' alma mater without knowing what goes on behind the grey walls. Frankly, I never wore my class ring around or ever told anyone I was a USMA grad because of these very same dumbass stereotypes seen here. I wanted to be taken for who I was, not pre-judged by myths and rumors perpetuated by the envious and/or unknowing.

To JSOC, amen brother.

[tatertot]

amen

[JOE-BOO]

Hey...hey...I can take having my ass handed to me...nice job...I do, admittedly, go by my experience with the Pointer's, but one thing for sure...you can bear your teeth....nice to see some aggression with substance....outstanding

Tatertot/HS Wrestler....do your research....
Also...all the schools you mentioned above are available to ROTC also...however they are optional...we like to enjoy the summers...

Zulu out

[willis]

Your only 16, you should be more concerned about being able to make it through the training then, "oh should I be an officer or enlisted" What good would it do you. And stop using the phrase: De Oppresso Libre!!!
Your not SF and it is only for the proud soldiers of SF.