Too Many Army Badges?

[RifleMaster]

I have had several discussions about too many Army badges with retired Army Officers and Command Sergeant Majors. IMHO the Army should eliminate all badges/patches except the Ranger tab, SF Tab, CMB, and CIB. Unit insignia, service strips, and ribbons tell the story.

What do you think?

[JOE-BOO]

Take them all off the BDU accept name and service...maybe unit. Creates a culture where just being a "soldier" is not good enough....people don't necessary want the training they want the badge. We would do better to concern ourselves with the story of the Army than the story of ourselves. I hate the fact that the first thing I notice on a soldier after his rank is his badges and patches....It is like judging someone based on their color or some other attribute that only tells part of the story of that person...which I might add is based largely on assumption...Personally I have gone sterile...not tht I had a whole lot to wear if I wanted to.
save those for special events like dining-in/out or balls.

How many time did you make assumptions about someone based on what badges/patches they had or did not have and was wrong???

How many times did someone else have a false assumption about you based on your badges/patches??

IMHO they are just look silly on BDUs and should be left to the boy scouts....not professionals.

[Snake]

Keep Unit, Name, and Branch. Ditch the rest, -including- Jump wings. The LT is right, the badges get seen as the goal, not the training. Also, keep the EIB and CIB.


Snake
25th ID(L)

[RifleMaster]

11ZULU,

I think you're right-on!

Thanks for the comments!

Carl

[jeff]

I'd DX everything but name, rank and US Army.

[Ranger002]

This is an old story.Back in my day they called them Bolo Badges and I see no harm in not wearing them on your BDU's. However I would keep them for Class A display.Badges and Tabs do not make the man but we should recognize acheivments
William Hazen B 2/75 Ranger C 3/12 SFGA

[jds]

and give up my coveted J.E.B. NEVER!
jds

[jeff]

I agree, on the green yes. JEB? Jungle expert Badge...hahah..pfc jeff had to have one sewn onto a field jacket in 85...kills me.

[Ranger1]

I've gotta agree...while it looks pretty hooah to have a CIB on top of a set of jump wings, on top of a torch on top of a bubble, on top of a...blah, blah , blah....there should definately be less badges authorised for BDI's / dress uniforms. (We had to have all our stuff sewn onto our field jackets, and when's the last time you saw ANYONE in the 75th wearing a field Jacket? One of my biggest memorable smoke sessions as a newbie.)

We used to call the annual EIB qual th'Great EIB Giveaway. IMHO, it should be a minimum requirement for all (leg and non-leg) 11 series, not an exatra option.)

Ok then...while we're being sensitive to the "being a soldier should be good enough" theme(just to stir some shit on what is way too calm a thread): what about berets??

I mean...hell, (while we're doing away with jump wings)the 75th scroll or SF-Tab should tell the real deal right?

C'Mon Hazen, 11Z, trade me that old black thing and jump boots for these stupid lookin' shoes and polyester c#/t cap...you know you wanna....

-RLTW
-Kirk (doing three to five second rushes back to the pub...I'm up, I'm seen, I'm down...)

[LRSC Grunt]

You can take a persons rank away but you cant take his qualifications. But hey, while were stripping a man of his right to display his pride lets also outlaw starched BDUs and spitshined boots because Too many shitbags walking around with spits and starched.

[Ranger002]

Like I said,

SAME OLD STORY...All I care about is if my men think I am a stand up guy. Tabs and badges display a degree of willingness.Fortitude is earned in the eyes of your peers...Don't get me wrong I love my little badges and tabs but they only tell part of the tale.
William Hazen B 2/75 Ranger C 3/12 SFGA(R)

[Jasper]

To quote 11Zulu; "where just being a "soldier" is not good enough....". As low as standards are right now, just being a soldier is not good enough. My team deserves to have something that distinguishes them from the 71L's, 75H's, and the plethora of other soft skilled MOS's that work, at most, 12 hours per week and consider a 2 mile walk strenuous PT. Call me an "elitist", but that is how I feel. People are going to form a first impression of you that may be incorrect, badges or no badges.

However, the Air Assault badge is completely worthless. "The toughest 10 days in the Army" - maybe to the aforementioned MOS's. I vote that it and the Pathfinder badge go the way of the dodo.

Also, I think that most badges should not be for permanent wear. For example: airborne wings worn only while on jump status, MFF wings only in a W8 billet, the same for the CDQC bubble, and the EIB while in a line company or "green tab" position. Ranger tab while in a line company, "green tab" slot, or in the 75th. SF tab while on an ODA or "green tab" position. In short, if you aren't doing the job, you lose the badge. CIB, CMB, and combat jump wings would be permanent wear.

Just my thoughts.

"Arch hard and take it like a man"

[This message has been edited by Jasper (edited 07-04-2000).]

[Ranger002]

Good Ideas Jasper,

Especially if it gets me more chicks...
William Hazen B 2/75 C 3/12 SFGA(R)

[RifleMaster]

Jasper,

"My team deserves to have something that distinguishes them from the 71L's, 75H's ...." Why? The USMC doesn't!

When the bullets start flying those badges won't amount to shit. Some men will apply their training, some will panic (spray and pray), and some just cower (do nothing). The "real" leaders will lead regardless of rank and the number of badges they wear.

I believe team/unit integrity (undivided/ unity) is more important than individual egos. Self-confidence, confidence in their team/unit, and unit insignia should be enough!

This is just my opinion.

[Ted]

I agree, get rid of all patches on BDU's except for unit, name, US Army; keep the CMB, CIB; ditch the Ranger and SF tabs. Save the rest of the cool guy/gal stuff for class A's.



[This message has been edited by Ted (edited 07-04-2000).]

[Ranger1]

So...in less words, what about berets with BDU's? (starched Arrco's style of course).Get rid of them too, and only wear them with class A's?

BTW, chicks dig guys in berets.

-Kirk

[JSOCMarine]

What you have hit on here is one of the fundamental cultural differences between the Army and the Marine Corps. I have attended many Army schools and it has always flabbergasted my soldier buddies that I would not be able to wear certain tabs, badges,etc., on my Marine uniform when I graduated.

I do not knock the Army for it, it is simply part of their traditions and customs to wear the stuff. As right as it is to do so in the Army, it is entirely against the philosophy that the Marine Corps takes on the subject. We have taken great pains over the years to stress the value of being a Marine over the importance of any unit affiliation,MOS,etc. It works for us.

When I attended a school at Benning my classmates were surprised that I had attended many schools they had, yet wore none of the stuff on my uniform. When asked why, I pointed at the Marine emblem on my shirt pocket and said, "to me, this is the only device that counts." I think most Marines share my views.

I do not think the Army is wrong for having their traditions. What I am hearing from some soldiers is that perhaps things have gone a bit overboard and there are simply too many things found on plain old battle uniforms nowadays.

I agree with a previous poster; once the lead starts flying the real warriors and leaders surface, with or without badges and tabs. Semper Fi

[Jasper]

As a counter argument -
["My team deserves to have something that distinguishes them from the 71L's, 75H's ...." Why? The USMC doesn't!]
- I have seen many a marine wearing jump wings and a dive badge (pin-on) on their fatigues while in garrison. They do not wear them in the field, and we don't wear any badges/tabs in the field either.

[When the bullets start flying those badges won't amount to shit. Some men will apply their training, some will panic (spray and pray), and some just cower (do nothing). The "real" leaders will lead regardless of rank and the number of badges they wear.]
- No argument with that, but that is no reason not wear them.

[I believe team/unit integrity (undivided/ unity) is more important than individual egos. Self-confidence, confidence in their team/unit, and unit insignia should be enough!]
- I agree somewhat. However, I think that it is important to recognize those that are not satisfied with mediocrity, are willing to take challenges, and perform the hard jobs. They rate a little "ego-feeding" to me.

From what I have seen, most of the complaints about badges comes from the "have-nots" rather than the "haves". I think that a lot of this would be alleviated by the badge system that I proposed earlier. People who just want the badge probably will not go through the training if they will not be able to "rest on their laurels."

"Arch hard and take it like a man."


[This message has been edited by Jasper (edited 07-04-2000).]

[SOTICgrad]

A lot of valid points here, quite interesting. Like JSOC said, there are cultural differences between the Army and Marines. However JSOC let us not forget the wings and bubble of the USMC. Also the fact that you do now wear the tapes over the pockets. The Army might be corrupting you guys. <BSEG>

Seriously though...I've met quite a few Marines that had attended Ranger school or the SFQC and had their tabs sewn onto the inside pocket flap of their bdu's. I understand your point on being a Marine over any unit affiliation, but any Marine cannot do the job that a Recon Marine can. And if all Marines are generally the same, why create MEUSOC's? Wouldn't it stand to reason that if all are the same then all are SOC? Not knocking, just asking and thinking a happy medium for all would be a good idea. Like Napoleon said, very loosely paraphrased I'll admit, "Wars can be won with a small piece of ribbon."

[JSOCMarine]

Folks,
Don't read any antagonism in my previous post. I did not say that the Corps does not have devices. We do. But, no Marine is looked down upon if he does not have wings,etc. I rated wings and bubble for my entire career, but after my first enlistment rarely wore them on cammies. Always thought that they were kind of out of place on a tactical uniform.

The name tags on our uniforms was decided by General officers bent on making us more "Joint". We were not happy to have to sew them on. I never had any problem knowing the names of my men. In fact, after a while I could tell them apart in the dark simply by observing how they walked,etc. Some of you know what I am saying is true.

The MEU-SOC program is all about taking units and task organizing them to be very good at specialized raids. It is almost all good Grunt tactics, but focused on Amphibious raids via helo, small boats,etc. They do get better at these skills than a typical Grunt unit, but often at the expense of their patrolling, and other conventional infantry skills. There are no patches or devices or special titles awarded to members of of MEU-SOC units. No Marine ever goes around saying, "I'm MEU-SOC qualified!" Being MEU-SOC is simply a matter of being in a Infantry, Support or Aviation unit that has been assigned to make a deployment with a MEU. After training and testing the unit is designated MEU-SOC qualified. Thats all there is to it.

Not all Marines can be a Recon Marine. Those that can and are have the satisfaction of being in the unit. They may go to schools, they may not. Recon Marines do not get devices to show that they are special. I know many fine Recon Marines who never got a chance to go to schools, hence no badges.

Let me put it in perspective. Many of my early mentors had done several Recon tours in Nam. Most had not been to jump or scuba school until after they got back from war. In my early days in Recon jump quotas were very scarce. The 1stSgt used to award them, if all else was equal, to those who had the most Purple Hearts!

Again, do not read my comments as making fun of the Army for wearing stuff on their uniforms. It is their culture. The fact is that many in that culture often draw conclusions about people based entirely on what they have or do not have sewn on their uniform. This is largely absent in the Corps. Any Marine who thinks he is going to walk over another Marine simply because he has wings on is in for a rude awakening.

Finally, during my time in JSOC it was my experience that most of the most seasoned and accomplished operators I ever knew wore nothing at all on thier uniform. I imagine that when one of them walked into the PX at Bragg wearing a uniform without any badges or combat patch some folks would look at them and think "look at that dirty nasty leg!"

Never judge a book by it's cover. S/F



[This message has been edited by JSOCMarine (edited 07-04-2000).]

[realpolypro]

Long hair and civvies while drawing an LES...fine with me.

Polypro

[Swat1]

BTDT poly, hehehe and a beard too!

[0802]

I have to wholeheartedly agree with JSOC Marine statements. Here at an Army school most of the Marines kind of chuckle when we hear some of the Army officers talk about their peers. You don’t how many times I have heard the term “flat liner,” or “chronic cystic legosis.” Or how much less credibility they assign someone without a Ranger tab. We actually have an infantry Capt in the Combine Arms branch that , my god doesn’t have a Ranger Tab. He attended Ranger School, but broke his back when he fell out of a duce and half, since he spent a long time in recovery, getting back the field and later got married, he decide not to go back. Now he is getting out of the Army, because of he feels the lack of a Tab will be a discriminator and possibly prevent him from advancing. That is something you just don’t see in Corps, I have only seen one Marine refer to another as a leg, at that was an ANGLICO Marine and he was more joking about it than anything else.

There are a lot of misconceptions about the MEU (SOC) program. Just about ever unit in 2nd and 1St MARDIV if they are not in the UDP cycle is in the MEU (SOC) cycle. So it not like the army, were only a few special units will get all the training. If you are locked on for the MEU, then you get the training. And it is not just the infantry BN that gets the training, the whole of the BLT gets the training. The most recent example that I like to point to is a element from L/3/10 got into a “minor fire fight” a few months ago when the BLT went ashore in Kosovo. That is right an artillery battery, they were filling their traditional role on the MEU as a provisional rifle company. But there is a price to be paid as JSOC said, their infantry skills (and other conventional combat arms MOS skills for non-infantrymen) suffer after a deployment. Once the BLT comes off the pump, they can do 500 different forms of raids, but ask them to seize a hill or take ground and they will look at you funny. They get so wrapped around the “ninja ops” that they have to be restart their conventional warfare skills.

[abn_rngrr]

I've never done unit training with them but I've been to several schools with recon/FR Marines (Ranger, SERE, Pathfinder, combat diver). They ragged a plenty on the line dogs in Marine rifle battalions.

[JSOCMarine]

Abn-Rng,
You are correct, that does happen. In my experience it usually comes from the guys who were never in a grunt unit prior to being in a Recon unit. What I meant to say was that stuff like that is never tolerated by good leaders, they stamp it out immediately when they see it or hear it.

Having done both, I used to enjoy seeing Recon NCO's and SNCO's join a grunt unit after being "high speed". Not all of them were able to make the transition in some areas. I saw more than a couple of them attempt to treat their squad or platoon as though they were lesser men, and in turn have their "punk card" pulled by some street-wise, tough kid who would basically suggest taking things to a "different level"! It was always gratifying to see a "High Speed" guy finally realize that maybe his new unit had some good Corporals, Sergeants,etc., in it, and that flaunting badges and UDT shorts could well end up in a "Training Area Counseling" if it came down to it.

No service has cornered the market on immaturity! It exists everywhere. S/F

[JOE-BOO]

If you want to seperate yourself from the shitbags...which i something we all here would like to do...you enforce the standards...and you force competency..or you force them out....the system is broke and badges won't truely seperate you, they only create segrigation that is unneccessary....WE ARE ALL SOLDIERS....if that is not good enough then WE need to get better....as a service!!!! We are a team...we need each other...WE need that fuel yesterday....WE need that intel....WE need in the damn arms-room....WE need a mechanic to fix the duece so WE can fill the buffalo. No one can be second class, because they will begin to act that way....EVERYONE is first class or they need to be shipped out to Burger King. I am proud of my accomlishments, but WE need action. If initial entry is not enough then it needs to change...or we make them better and we demand first class effort and foster the want to be above the standard in performance..... "U.S." and "ARMY" on the left side of my chest proves that I am "special"...It proves that I am willing to suffer through endless red tape...It proves that I took the oath. It proves that I wil end some poor bastards life to uphold my constitution and protect the freedom of our grandchildren.....Those alone are enough to grant respect and demand perormance....we don't wear that stuff on class B's the other work/daily uniform....why have it on the uniform the enemy will most likely see...why give up the G-2...why should they know if the guys that just mowed over there rifle platoon were airborne infantry or leg quartermaster. If the fat female in finance is not up to snuff then thin the heard....there are enough hurt combat arms guys who could do that job with a minimum turnaround time to fill the slots that the sharp support guys can't...instead they get the boot even though they are studs and we keep the slugs. Just retrain and make/keep everyone as a warrior.

[Gary]

Let's see a Cook Tab.

[JOE-BOO]

only if they can make a damn good pigs-n-da-blanket.

[LRSC Grunt]

JSOC,
Whos to say that Marines dont rag on us dogfaces(with their leaders watching too!)? Im not talking about them joking around either. And whos to say that I didnt pug em in the nose and commenced multiple Kiwi injections to the cranium!?? Arent we on the same team just as poges and grunts are in the same branch of the armed forces?

Get my picture?


To all,
I totally disagree with what this board has to say. If you want it this way then go inside your closet right now and rip every scare me badge off your uniform. Take every plaque off your wall and throw it in the trash(how many of them did you really earn?). Take your green/red/black beret off and replace it with a PC. And you rangers and long tabbers rip it off, because johny the poge is just as experienced as you are(thats what your telling me???Right???). I guarantee you most wont do it. I can understand wearing sterils in combat/field(I do). I have pride in everything I have done even if it wasnt really "the 10 toughest days in the army" or is called a "free-I-B" and I display them proudly because there are jackasses out there who dont even give a shit about even attending the school for basic knowledge. And you know what, I dont want to be in any way associated with them either, because shitbags never seek self improvement. Thats why I wear them. If you disagree then take em off, but dont step on my f*cking toes in the process.



[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 07-05-2000).]

[Gary]

Like someone said earlier, those that don't have them, whine the most.

[Tracy]

I think we should switch to decaf...

[Snake]

No one said anything about ditching Berets, ribbons, medals, or badges. I think the original subject was ditching them off of our BDU's. Since no one wears Berets while in the field(I -think- that order is Army-wide now), thats not an issue. People who aint on Jump-status shouldnt wear the Badge. It's just that simple. Ditto for Air Assault and Ranger. Wear the stuff that goes with your job. EIB is a qual-badge, but isnt the CIB a -decoration-? Two different things. BTW, if you going to have a CIB and CMB, how come there aint a Combat Engineer Badge? Sappers breaching defenses qualify as Combat soldiers in -my- book anyway. Unless lazy sapper's are fear't of hard work in earning an EEB? Heh.

Also, wouldnt it make sense to have
-everyone- attent Combat Lifesaver's?
Snake
25th ID(L)

[JOE-BOO]

Gary....Who is whinning???? If you do not agree with a post then share your view....please...I would like to here it. Know one has seriously said get rid of the stuff....THEY EARNED IT.....Like Snake and I stated...this is about combat/field/utility uniforms.....and the need to judge others by badges as a first impression.... not to take away a personal accomplishment....If being a soldier is not good enough then we need to retrain.

I do disagree that it is necessary for those in the unit to wear that badge...why? They already know you are qualified. and if not.....train/retrain

------------------

IT AIN'T THE
BARK...IT AIN'T THE
GROWL...ITS THE BITE THAT
HURTS
11ZULU

[RifleMaster]

Good comments!

If I were Soldier King, I would strive to improve unit esprit de corps and individual proficiency within our VOLUNTEER Army. I would stress being a soldier first!

I certainly would not eliminate the hard earned badges, patches, Tabs, berets, or jumpboots from Class A's. However, I can not think of any benefit in having ANYTHING more than US Army tag, current unit patch (?), name tag, and rank on BDU's.

I would require everyone, below the rank of General, in combat arms units to requalify every 6 months with their individual weapons (Markman, Sharpshooter, or Expert), requalify every 6 months in a basic infantry course (Basic, Expert, or Master Infantry Badge), and requalify annually in a new combined Airborne and Airmobile course (Basic, Expert, and Master Wings).

In addition, everyone would be required wear their last qualification level on their Class A's.

But, I'm NOT king! And, tomorrow is another work day.

Hold'em Hard!

[SAPPER317]

Snake,

Thank you. We've been doing a lot of stuff, without badges and decorations.

Many of the badges are geared around the Infantry, after all, that is the heart and soul of any military. If everyone wears or is entitled to an EIB, then it is not so special anymore. The US military is really hung up on badges...just look at the Air Force.

[Gary]

Zulu, in a nutshell, take all that crap off of your cammy uniform. You want a service of proud Soldiers? Then stop making half of them feel like second class Soldiers. Just listen to one particular whiner in this thread, he feels like you're taking his manhood away and making him like the rest of those REMF's by taking his badges off his BDU's.

[JOE-BOO]

gotcha...I thought you were talking about those who thought It might be a good idea to take them off the cammies...I misunderstood what types of posts you thought were whinning...I personally do not have to try to hard to have a sterile uniform. But I must say that as a JO it is anoying to catch myself staring at left shoulders and chests. I simply have met to many soldiers who are high speed who have not taken the opportunity or have had trouble getting a badge/tab/qualification for one reason or another. What is worse is the oxygen theives who have them that get instant respect that they should not get in place of a great soldier who does not have those badge/patches/qualifications.

My goal is to do my part to make my service/unit the best. That means every one is on the team...they are expected to be the best at what they do and be treated as such. Sapper is a hell of a lot harder that Airborne...so why do they not have an auhorized tab/patch??? Is he not as important??? Is the dentist who gave me a root canal not important???? What about the physical therapist who helped me with my knee....or the PAC clerk who went out of her way to clean up my files because did not know what to do with that pile of shit....

We must demand top notch from everyone so that we are....the Army....top-notch PERIOD. If we then consider everyone top-notch...treat eery one top-notch and furthermore train/retrain everyone to be top-notch and only recruit and select those capable of rising to a high level of competence and motivation....then there is no need to seperate them from us.....

I relate it to buying a football team uniforms and putting special patches on certain players uniforms.....that the other team sees....you put you accomplishments and history on the letter jacket not your uniform....the other team and the home team must believe that everyone is a bad ass and unified not segrigated by strings.

------------------

IT AIN'T THE
BARK...IT AIN'T THE
GROWL...ITS THE BITE THAT
HURTS
11ZULU

[baboon]

Maybe you guys should have a selection course before jump school, as we have over here, also in the UK and other countries. That should put people off going just to get the badge. Also I reckon it should be just for people who are actually going to serve with an airborne unit. Snake said it should not be worn by those not on jump status. I say what is the point of training someone as a paratrooper and then having them go off jump status immediately?
Point no.2 ( and I know I'm going to get flamed for this )- how many medals does the US military hand out? I mean you got Sgts (E-5) and Capts there with more rows of ribbons than four-star generals in most armies. Ehud Barak ( when he was still in the military )had more fruit salad than anyone else in the Israeli army and he had seven ribbons. I'm not trying to put down the US, I just think it looks and sometimes sounds silly. I mean things like the " Joint Meritorious Unit Commendation ", only a serious Pentagon pogue (is that the right term? ) could have thought that up.
Regarding CIB- maybe there should be a " combat service " insignia such as in the Israeli or Australian armies. Armoured corps and certain sappers and gunners surely deserve something too. What precisely are the requirements for the CIB?
Regarding EIB- this I don't understand. I know it is for infantrymen who pass certain tests, a higher standard than normal, but why can't this be put in a guy's file, it doesn't indicate special skills or membership of an elite unit.Why isn't every infantryman required to have these standards?I agree with JSOC, your unit training and identity should be more important. How long can a US Army infantryman (enlisted or off ) expect to stay in the same unit? Isn't it better to keep the same guys together as long as possible, to develop team spirit and cohesion?

As I said above I'm not trying to start a flame war, just some hopefully constructive criticism.

" Stick to me. I shall advance soon. Expect no orders. "
- Jock Campbell, VC



[This message has been edited by baboon (edited 07-06-2000).]

[Gary]

I'd have to agree with the statement about the copious amounts of medals and ribbons handed out these days. There’s nothing funnier than seeing a Pouge E-4 in the Coast Guard with 4 rows of ribbons talking sh!t to a couple of Combat Veterans at our last Ball.

Hey, I heard some folks flew over Kosovo. Here, give them a Bronze Star!

[LRSC Grunt]

butterbar,
When and if you make it through hooah school, are you gonna wear it? Well see how you feel afterwards.

Gary,
How would you feel if they didnt let you wear your EAG? It would piss you off right? Why? You think your better than us doggies? Would we be stripping your manhood too? Were on the same team..arent we? You know what, we are on the same team. Just the same as poges and grunts in the army are. They might do a supperb job in supporting us grunts, but that is exactly what they do....SUPPORT. They lack the knowledge and sometimes the intestinal fortitude us grunts live and die by. The infantry is the backbone of the military as a whole. Without poges us grunts would be sucking, but without infantry we wouldnt even have a military.

Too all,
If you dont like them, then take them off. Oops..... thats right, you gotta get them first to even take them off.

[Gary]

Grunt, and I use the term loosely, I'll repeat my other post, "those that don't have them, whine the most." I know you’re proud of your tough ten days but that just doesn’t cut it. Our field cammies are sterile, no “EGA” (get it right). I wear the Eagle, Globe and Anchor proudly on my dress uniform as you wear your trinkets but in the field nothing goes on the uniform. I’d debate the “intestinal fortitude” of Pouges with you but beings your just in the Guard with probably no real world experience, you don’t rate.

[Snake]

Gentlemen,
Can we keep this discussion civil and professional? Nothing I've seen here calls for attacking the Officer's, Marines, or Guardsmen. We're discussing the relative merits of all the "Eat at Joe's" on our BDU's. Tom and Jack have yet to put up a "Size-of-yer-cock".NET, but this should not serve as a field expedient....

Snake
25th ID(L)

[LRSC Grunt]

Gary,
So what do you do for a living right now? Hmmm....Marine reservist??? So tell me....what is the difference between the two? What real world mission does your unit posses? You have no clue in the world as to what I have done or what Im doing now. So why do you jump to conclusions as to who I am? To me you could be some little kid trying to start flame wars therefore I dont care what you say about me. BTW, due to the OPSEC of our missions, we wear sterils to the field too. They cant even have name and US army tapes. Not even a trace of stiching!!!


Anyhow, Im sorry to all for being apart of this pissing contest. Ill try not to make any more sense because it pisses people off.





[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 07-07-2000).]

[SSD]

Guard, I mean Grunt (Yea right!),
You do now, as you always have, sound like a punk kid with a chip on his shoulder.
You’ve been around this board for quite a while shooting your mouth off so most of us and I’m sure Gary too, know a few things about yourself. We also know quite a bit about Gary from his many posts on all SOCNET forums, old and new, to date. You like profiles I see, have any idea what an 8541/8654 is? I guess not. Hell, I don’t know why I’m wasting my time. He’s got more time in combat than you have in the service. I’m sure you’ll get a few more patronizing posts from some of his personal friends that frequent this board, so I’ll just leave you with these parting words. BOOT!

[SSD]

I forgot to add, Mr. Sterile in the field. Nice badges and patches on those captured Soldiers in Kosovo. Heck, the enemy doesn’t need to torture you guys anymore. One look at you and they know you whole damn military career.

[LRSC Grunt]

SSD,
Does he have the right to tell me I dont rate? I wasnt trying to say he was a little kid, but sh!t...you dont know whos behind the keyboard. It could be anyone. Hell the next guy trying to post might be a male transexual.

Im sorry for screwing up this string, ill take responsibility for it. Tom, do what you want to do its your site and im sorry if I messed it up with one string.

[krm25]

hey i am right behind you LRSC.

[krm25]

i agree with you LRSC

[LRSC Grunt]

Dude im flattered you agree with me, but please dont take anyones side. It will only cause people to hate each other and make things even worse.

[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 07-07-2000).]

[JOE-BOO]

LRSC....I skated down in Spring a few times....don't like Houston, but Spring is cool....heard your unit was shutting down....equipment going to GA

[Gary]

Grunt,
Oh ye of little memory. You know who the hell I am as I know you. One or Two SOCNET’s ago you posted a personal site with a picture on it, remember the one? In cammies, tiger stripe on the face, looking lost while smirking. We’ve chatted before. You have no combat experience by your own admission. You want to talk about how Pouges will react under fire? YOU DON”T RATE!

I think someone who’s been giving credible posts as long as these boards have been active, deserves a little more than “heck, he could be a kid or a Transsexual”. As the Major said, “A kid with a chip”.

Kind of reminds me of a young Lance Coolie I once knew at 1st Force. He was a driver in the motor Pool but he never wasted a minute in telling outside folks he was with Force Recon.

[Tracy]

OK, EVERBODY OUT OF THE POOL!!!

Now, for my .02 worth: WHO CARES??!!

The job starts and ends with BDUs and a rifle. Rank, Name and a Branch is all you need.

For Gawd's sake STOP THIS THREAD!

[recce_o]

Looks like the KGB/GRU/FSK et al have finally mastered that "divide and conquer" thing.

[Ranger002]

Tracys Right guys,

and besides sorry but I think I drank too much coffee before I went in the pool and...well you guessed it. I done peed in da pool.I am BERY BERY Sorry Fellas
William Hazen B 2/75 Ranger C 3/12 SFGA

[caveman]

I know I am late on this subject, but you know the saying.

I say nothing but rank, service, unit and name on bdu’s.

Most of those “pin on schools” are for the grunts, its tough for us to get slots. And I would say its fair, the only people going to those schools should be the ones who will use em.

A lot of good points made out all over this post. As for the statements made about us support guys just remember with out the support people nothing happens! It takes that guy in the motor pool, the pac clerk, the finance people and a whole lot of others to make the military work.

Also one other thing that was stated, has anyone really looked into what the Coast Guard people do? It’s a tough job overall. And as for all this “combat”, sorry people the great sand war does not count. I m not taking anything away from anyone, I do know some of you in here and a whole lot of others have seen real combat, but those Coast Guard people see action everyday in some places.

Just my $1.50 on this post.

[josepy]

LRSC Grunt -

Gary is the wrong person to compare resumes with. He is being humble with you, appreciate it.

I might be a little self-centered about this but combat time is more important than any school.

[caveman]

I agree with you 100% on combat vs. some school.

But in 1991 when I came into the army, just about everyone had a CIB, and a chest full of ribbons from the “great sand war”. In no way am I saying these guys did not deserve their CIB, but lets face the facts. Since the Vietnam war the standards went down in order to earn the CIB. In Grenada every 11 bang bang that was there got one, same for Panama, Iraq, and Somalia. Not sure if it was passed out for Haiti, Bosnia and Kosovo.

Looking at each I came to the following conclusions:

Grenada we doubled and even tripled the number of troops needed for each operation.
Panama we scared ourselves more then the people of Panama.
Iraq was an air, missile, rocket and tank war.
And as for Somalia, we all know what happened there, I do believe most earned their CIB, but I went to school with a guy from 10th and all he did was guard an ammo point for 15 days, he never saw action yet got his CIB.

Again I am not taking anything anyone who was in any of these military or war actions, its just that the CIB like a lot of other “awards” are handed out for the safe of a feel good, look good army unit.

As for making a “sapper” or engineer CIB, we might as well make a CIB for everyone. Again no one please think I am attacking anyone who has been awarded the CIB. I know that many of you have earned it. But if we are to take some away, I say take it all away.. the tabs/headgear/badges/combat patch. Just wear em on you’re A’s

[caveman]

I agree with you 100% on combat vs. some school.

But in 1991 when I came into the army, just about everyone had a CIB, and a chest full of ribbons from the “great sand war”. In no way am I saying these guys did not deserve their CIB, but lets face the facts. Since the Vietnam war the standards went down in order to earn the CIB. In Grenada every 11 bang bang that was there got one, same for Panama, Iraq, and Somalia. Not sure if it was passed out for Haiti, Bosnia and Kosovo.

Looking at each I came to the following conclusions:

Grenada we doubled and even tripled the number of troops needed for each operation.
Panama we scared ourselves more then the people of Panama.
Iraq was an air, missile, rocket and tank war.
And as for Somalia, we all know what happened there, I do believe most earned their CIB, but I went to school with a guy from 10th and all he did was guard an ammo point for 15 days, he never saw action yet got his CIB.

Again I am not taking anything anyone who was in any of these military or war actions, its just that the CIB like a lot of other “awards” are handed out for the safe of a feel good, look good army unit.

As for making a “sapper” or engineer CIB, we might as well make a CIB for everyone. Again no one please think I am attacking anyone who has been awarded the CIB. I know that many of you have earned it. But if we are to take some away, I say take it all away.. the tabs/headgear/badges/combat patch. Just wear em on you’re A’s

[caveman]

I agree with you 100% on combat vs. some school.

But in 1991 when I came into the army, just about everyone had a CIB, and a chest full of ribbons from the “great sand war”. In no way am I saying these guys did not deserve their CIB, but lets face the facts. Since the Vietnam war the standards went down in order to earn the CIB. In Grenada every 11 bang bang that was there got one, same for Panama, Iraq, and Somalia. Not sure if it was passed out for Haiti, Bosnia and Kosovo.

Looking at each I came to the following conclusions:

Grenada we doubled and even tripled the number of troops needed for each operation.
Panama we scared ourselves more then the people of Panama.
Iraq was an air, missile, rocket and tank war.
And as for Somalia, we all know what happened there, I do believe most earned their CIB, but I went to school with a guy from 10th and all he did was guard an ammo point for 15 days, he never saw action yet got his CIB.

Again I am not taking anything anyone who was in any of these military or war actions, its just that the CIB like a lot of other “awards” are handed out for the safe of a feel good, look good army unit.

As for making a “sapper” or engineer CIB, we might as well make a CIB for everyone. Again no one please think I am attacking anyone who has been awarded the CIB. I know that many of you have earned it. But if we are to take some away, I say take it all away.. the tabs/headgear/badges/combat patch. Just wear em on you’re A’s

[caveman]

I agree with you 100% on combat vs. some school.

But in 1991 when I came into the army, just about everyone had a CIB, and a chest full of ribbons from the “great sand war”. In no way am I saying these guys did not deserve their CIB, but lets face the facts. Since the Vietnam war the standards went down in order to earn the CIB. In Grenada every 11 bang bang that was there got one, same for Panama, Iraq, and Somalia. Not sure if it was passed out for Haiti, Bosnia and Kosovo.

Looking at each I came to the following conclusions:

Grenada we doubled and even tripled the number of troops needed for each operation.
Panama we scared ourselves more then the people of Panama.
Iraq was an air, missile, rocket and tank war.
And as for Somalia, we all know what happened there, I do believe most earned their CIB, but I went to school with a guy from 10th and all he did was guard an ammo point for 15 days, he never saw action yet got his CIB.

Again I am not taking anything anyone who was in any of these military or war actions, its just that the CIB like a lot of other “awards” are handed out for the safe of a feel good, look good army unit.

As for making a “sapper” or engineer CIB, we might as well make a CIB for everyone. Again no one please think I am attacking anyone who has been awarded the CIB. I know that many of you have earned it. But if we are to take some away, I say take it all away.. the tabs/headgear/badges/combat patch. Just wear em on you’re A’s

[LRSC Grunt]

josephy,
I wasnt in any way trying to compair resumes. It just so happened I was in a bad mood when I let my anger out in one post, then he tells me Im a winno. I imagine that probably anyone else would have reacted the same way. If you havent already noticed, I like to ask people questions in a way that they can see things in my eyes. I asked him if it would piss him off if they wouldnt let him wear his " EGA" and tried to make it clear that it would piss me off if I couldnt wear my badges. He reacted by attacking both my credentials and my charactor by telling me "you dont rate". How would you feel if say an army dog or a squid told you that you didnt rate? Honestly, I could care less how him or anyone else feels about me. All you guys see of me is a bunch of words that I type because im bored. Until him or anyone else meets me eye to eye will they know who I am. Hell in person im accually a quiet introvert. I never attack anyone by insulting their charactor if I havent met them in person. But anyways, since ive rarely seen him and SSD post something other than flaming somebody, im gonna put them both on thermonucular ignore status. I agree with you on combat is more important than any school. Thats why they allow the wear of CIBs, CFMBs, and unit combat patches.

11z,
Downtown Houston has improved alot since they build the new baseball stadium and theres plans for more. Ive heard rumors that the Buffalo Bayou will soon resemble the river walk in San Antonio and plans are in the making on improving the Houston bar and club scene.

Yes we did get word that were getting disbanded. We were told that fighting it wouldnt help, but we fought it anyway by writing letters to congress. We have since recieved an extra year extension of stay and now were being told to keep fighting. How many units do you know of that have gotten that far in the fight?

0331.
Quit trying to put words into my mouth.

[LRSC Grunt]

<ignore>

[SECON]

Grunt,

It's not often that I offer advice because, as they say, wise men don't need it and the fool won't heed it! But I'll make an exception.

Don't mess with dogs you don't know...they might just take a big 'ol chunk out of your a**.

For the record, I am an NCO in the Guard, I 've been a Sapper, a grunt and am now reclassing as a scout. But I am still JUST a weekend warrior. Certainly "better" than a civilian, most assuredly nowhere near as "good" as those that "have been there and done that".

I've got a 201 (and an-I-love-me-wall) full-of-thanks-for-being-there crap, both military and civilian. The two most significant and memorable moments in my military and professional careers came when (this is the military part) SFC Michael J. McGuire, former Recon Marine, MACV-SOG vet, authorized to wear SF SSI on his right shoulder, etc,etc. pulled me aside and said " Ya' know, I'd go to war with you SGT." ...and we were both sober. No, really, we were! And, on the civilan side of the house, when Dave Auld, whom some of you BTDT's know, told me it was "a pleasure training with a real professional" and that he was "looking forward to working with me in the future".

Both those comments are, in my puny little mind, far more valuable than any other accollade, award or accoutrement that I have or may receive. Why? Because it means more to me than anything that I have some how managed to earn the respect of those who have accomplished far more than I can ever hope to.

Oh yeah, I somehow managed to do this while handicapped by BDU's that have nothing more than the tapes and rank ...because I have never attended any high speed, low drag schools. Of course, in the civilian world the few ribbons and badges I have seem to clash with every suit and sport jacket I own, so I save 'em for my A's.

[This message has been edited by SECON (edited 07-08-2000).]

[RifleMaster]

Baboon,

I'll answer your question about the CIB. The CMB also is a skill and heroism award. However, I don't want to start a value discussion of the training/achievement badges and tabs.

As stated above, I believe all badges and tabs (Oh how I liked wearing my badges and CIB!) should only be worn on class A's. This would help prevent promotions and assignments from being based on past accomplishments rather than current readiness and/or performance. It would force leaders to know their men! Enough on this subject!

The US War Department established the Combat Infantryman Badge to primarily "enhance morale and the prestige of the "Queen of Battle". US Army Regulation 600-8-22, states in Paragraph 2-6, a. History (d)that the "CIB, an award which would provide special recognition of the unique role of the Army infantryman, the only soldier whose daily mission is to close with and destroy the enemy and to seize and hold terrain".

Specific Requirements- A soldier must be an Army infantry or special forces .... with an infantry or special forces MOS who .... has satisfactorily performed duty while assigned or attached as a member of an infantry, ranger or special forces unit ..... during any period such unit was engaged in active ground combat. Paragraph (2) states "a recipient must be personally present and under hostile fire while serving in an assigned infantry or special forces primary duty, in a unit actively engaged in ground combat with the enemy".

Clearly the CIB is a skill and heroism award for the infantryman that operates under the worst conditions and suffers the most casualties.

Thanks for your comments!

Carl

[Ranger002]

From one of my favorite movies

Treasure of the Sierra Madre

"Badges?!? "We don't need no stinking BADGES"!!!

William Hazen B 2/75 Ranger 1979-1982
Now fellas not everybody has to get out of the pool...only those whose manhood is not tied up on bunch of little trinkets... the rest of ya can smell like piss if you want
Any one of youse guys have a purple heart by the way??? Now there's one piece of ribbon that almost always earns respect along with most Silver Stars Navy Crosses and CMH's. The rest of it ... well what do you smell like ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

[SSD]

Well let’s see whose pecker is bigger. I personally know that two of the Devil Dogs in this string have some enemy marksmanship badges. In fact I was at the ceremony that one of them was receiving a PH and a BS w”V” for actions in the Balkans. They would never tell you but thought Hazen might like to know.

[Ranger002]

I have a very small and hard to control pee pee so youse guys win.Like I said SSD those kind of ribbons make me stand up and take notice! The other shit...ho hum.Now that you guys know some more"intimate" details about my big pecker I have to let you know that the X-MEN and the Justice League do not wear bolo badges cause they are way too busy saving the world from the bery bery bad mutants. Ok I am bored with this so unless you guys back up your smack with actual measurements and photos of the old johnson thus proving whose dick is bigger I suggest we move on.
William Hazen B 2/75 Ranger C 3/12 SFGA

[josepy]

RangerHazen -

I guess I can sort of understand your opinion of the Purple Heart. Most who have them don't consider them medals of honor. Like SSD said they are "Enemy Marksmanship Badges".

I would lastly add that all that I know who have them are not necessarily ashamed but not proud.

[Ranger002]

Josephy,

I have not and most likely will never be in combat. My admiration of the purple heart is that it tells me a dude put his life on the line and in harms way. Yeah it also says other things but the important part is the dude spilled some blood and that is to be respected. The bottom line is like Tracy said earlier we it comes down to it and the shit starts flying it is the man risking his life.
Another point is have'nt we all had these conversations before what with the merit of Bolo Badges and shit like dat. I mean does'nt this get boring after a while? I know some idiots who really care about wearing as much shit as possible to make up for the fact they are losers but come on...
At some point I realized that as the saying goes... The tab is a badge and the Scroll is a way of life.Thats it boys no more from me on the subject.
William Hazen B 2/75 Ranger C 3/12 SFGA

[WS-G]

Sorry, RangerHazen, but I'm short of Windex and don't have enough to clean the schlong-print off of my scanner.

http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif

Now that this thread's fairly drifted off-topic, I do have a question for LRSC Grunt, seeing how he's currently in the same unit I used to be in way back.... "What the Hell happened to that unit?" Even a mere 10-12 years ago, I occasionally bumped into people saying that unit just wasn't what it used to be.

Back when I first signed on with G-143, roughly 85% of Da Boyz had done at least one tour in 'Nam, represented a cross-section of past experience from just about every type of unit in every branch of service, and more often than not were taking stripes off just to get into that unit. I can recall from my time as a young (uh... very young!) private feeling extremely conspicuous with just a company scroll on my left shoulder (yep... we had a scroll in those days) amid a sea of 'Nam-era combat patches.

I can recall the occasional individual who thought he was shit-hot because he'd done a tour in the Regular Army (read that "peacetime Army"), but had little else to show for it besides a loud-mouthed round of stories from all the after-hours parties with, say, the 82nd or even (gasp!) the 75th (pre-Grenada, mind you!). Some of these even had EIB's, Tabs, and Jungle Expert Patches but as often as not, these same people seemed more interested in drawing jump pay and racking up those retirement points than giving the FNGs the benefit of what they [allegedly] had learned. We had the small presence of an ex-75th clique and an ex-82d clique, ex-Regulars all but not a CIB in the lot. No "cliques" among the ones with actual combat time, however, who seemed to have more important things to do — like getting everyone else up to speed.

The ones to whom we we paid the most attention, professionally speaking, weren't the ones with all the Tabs and shiny little bolo badges, but rather the ones who had combat patches. Let's see... survey? A couple of the most squared-away NCO's we had were sporting 173d Abn Bde patches on the right sleeve, there was the odd MACV (SOG of course!) and SF patch floating around, and yes Virginia, I seem to recall a good many former Marines (not all of them former FR either) displaying combat patches from 1st and 3d Marine Divisions.

"Sterile-in-the-field"? I'll go with that one. I can also recall some in-house head-butting over the issue of civilian clothes and non-regulation haircuts in-transit (I'm "for" when it comes to that one as well - I even did that one on patrol during Reforger 85!).

Anyway, now that we're [hopefully!] back on-topic, I'll close by saying that it really didn't bother me much when, after moving on to other things, the Air Force asked me to refrain from wearing my [earned] British wings. After explaining for the n-th time that "no, these are not Rigger wings", I was convinced that most people from units where few, if any, ever earn badges don't even know what they're looking at anyway.

But if all else goes, the Combat Patches and CIBs should stay.


------------------
ex Co. G (-)(Abn/Rgr), 143d INF(LRRP), TXARNG 1981-1985
ex 433MAW (AFRES), 1985-1991
FAA-certificated pilot and Advanced Ground Instructor

[This message has been edited by William M Salter (edited 07-09-2000).]

[csd96]

Regarding this topic, I could go either way. On some uniforms I have my junk sown on, on others I don't. Yes, there are soldiers in MOS's that don't get the opportunity to go to "badge" schools- but that is what they were interested in, then they would be in a different MOS. As for those than can go, but don't, that is their choice.
It seems that many overly worry about first impressions regarding badges. If you aren't switched on enough to get a read on a guy, regardless of what he's wearing on his uniform, then that is your bad. After meeting and working with someone, I get a pretty good feel for his competence and ability. If he has shit on his uniform that shows he's proven himself in the past, and he still does, then he's doing it right. If he doesn't have any high speed badges, but still demonstrates his competence, then he's still doing it right. If he has all sorts of love me badges on, but is a fat ass who is resting on the dive badge or EIB he got ten years ago, then it shows and I am still not impressed.
I usually wear my stuff when not in the field. If you are initially impressed, great. If after seeing me work, you are not able to get past what is on my chest or shoulder and make your own assessment of my ability then you have issues well beyond "badges."
As for one of Snakes earlier posts (not busting on you brother), the reference to not wearing jump wings or air assault unless on that status may make sense, but saying "ditto" for the Ranger Tab doesn't make sense. You are never on "Ranger Status." Just like the guys in Regiment say, the Tab is just a school. It is a combat leadership school- it is not teaching a specific operational skill like jumping, but rather teaching a student how to think, operate, react and LEAD in a simulated combat environment. The tab indicates someone who has gone through this course of instruction successfully- so you can't really compare it to jump status. An engineer or armor guys who has attended gets and can use the same benefits from the course as an 11 series guy. Just clarifying.

CSD

[realpolypro]

Auld...That name sounds familiar, but I think I need more Ginko. Flames...Paraphrasing, "Jerry Shriver taught me that I will never again cross someone that I don't know" (And yes, I should heed that more often too). Long hair, civvies,....AND A BEARD...While drawing an LES, as I fix the omelets. "Want that all the way, ran through the garden"?

Polypro

[Sharky]

Caveman, could you clarify a little bit about what you said about in Panama we scared ourselves more than the people of Panama. Just want to make sure I understand what you are trying to say before I launch. Tread lightly cause the flamethrower is lit and in standby mode but I am practicing good target ID. Lets hear it.

[FLTCREW1]

[This message has been edited by FLTCREW1 (edited 07-13-2000).]

[FLTCREW1]

Originally posted by Sharky:
Caveman, could you clarify a little bit about what you said about in Panama we scared ourselves more than the people of Panama.......

(Since this is an SOF forum, I assume that Caveman was referring to SOF.)

Awaiting same, by all means continue........


NSDQ

[Dark Helmet]

(standing next to the Sharkmeister with a can of insect repellent in one hand and a burning Bic lighter in the other) http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/mad.gif

[This message has been edited by TackDaBoat (edited 07-13-2000).]

[Whammer]

Tom,

Will you authorize the wearing of subdued smiley faces for all posters on this string for finally pushing it to 3 pages?

Any flaming going on might warrant smiley face w/reath and/or gold star....(CSF-combat smiley face)...

LOL hard
http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

[caveman]

Who can resist the opportunity to help make this topic hit 100?

As for my statement on Panama.

Lets face some facts here people, I was talking more about the CIB then what really happened in Panama and other “war zones”. Like in Grenada the us military in an effort to keep the us casualties low to zero and to get “combat” experience in all levels did a lot of over kill in some areas. Already posted somewhere in the site the question has been asked if the 82D ABN DIV should have air landed instead of jumped in on the same airfield the 75th had already jumped in on. Also other units doubled up on missions and manpower in Panama was nearly twice what was really needed by military planers. The bottom line, every 11 and 18 got a CIB. Now let me ask you all something, do you honestly think every 11 and 18 Tom, Dick and Harry deserved to get a CIB? Did everyone “earn” it? Or was it just passed out because they were in the “theater of operations”?

Again I am not trying to cut anyone down on this topic. Again this topic is and has been about to many “neat stuff” on ones uniform. Many people have posted replays on here about other patches being given away because of lower standards (EIB, EFMB, ABN, ASLT, ect. ect.). can anyone tell me what the original regulation stated as to who was authorized to be “awarded and wear” the CIB and CFMB?

RifleMaster posted the following: The US War Department established the Combat Infantryman Badge to primarily "enhance morale and the prestige of the "Queen of Battle". US Army Regulation 600-8-22, states in Paragraph 2-6, a. History (d)that the "CIB, an award which would provide special recognition of the unique role of the Army infantryman, the only soldier whose daily mission is to close with and destroy the enemy and to seize and hold terrain".

Specific Requirements- A soldier must be an Army infantry or special forces .... with an infantry or special forces MOS who .... has satisfactorily performed duty while assigned or attached as a member of an infantry, ranger or special forces unit ..... during any period such unit was engaged in active ground combat. Paragraph (2) states "a recipient must be personally present and under hostile fire while serving in an assigned infantry or special forces primary duty, in a unit actively engaged in ground combat with the enemy".

Now can any of you honestly tell me that every 11 and 18 guy in Panama was under hostile fire????

I am not trying to take anything away from anyone. But even the CIB has become something the army just seems to pass out. I have talked with guys who were there, I know about some of the fire fights. When I was with the 1/505 we had a SQDLDR who was there with the 75th he told us a lot of the action he saw there. And at the same time we had several other guys who were there with both 18th and 82D and they told us about all the gun fire they had heard but never saw the “action”.

I just feel that like other patches/awards the CIB is a give away these days.

[Felix]

What about badges like Aviator's wings, EOD, etc. I mean, these aren't schools that you attend just to gain a badge. These badges also tend to be worn by folks that due thier jobs day in and day out, in peace or war time. How do you guys feel about them? I certainly don't mean to compare them to the CIB, but are they not significant enough accomplishments (that in many cases do reflect combat service) to warrant pride and the right to display the symbol of those achievements. OK, OK, you caught me, I'm biased, you can have my crab when you pry it from my cold, dead hands and the cherry kool-aid pumping organ I call a heart has stopped beating...LOL

[Dark Helmet]

Originally posted by Felix:
....I mean, these aren't schools that you attend just to gain a badge. These badges also tend to be worn by folks that due thier jobs day in and day out...

Felix, for those on the special ops side of the fence, the same argument could be made for HALO wings, a SCUBA bubble, a Path torch, the SF long tab, and a Ranger tab. The wearers use the skills attained at those schools in everyday missions. How is that different from an EOD crab or Aviation Wings?

By the way, Captain Caveman, good argument. It gave me pause, but I have to say I would think it difficult to figure out exactly who received a CIB in combat to make the award an individual one. Most that I am aware of were awarded it as a unit, due to their proximity to the related conflict. The CIB awarding process, if your argument were followed to fruition, would be an individual award, much like an ARCOM or Bronze Star.

I'm not sure about this.....seems to diffuse the spirit within which the award was crafted.....

Anyone else?


[This message has been edited by TackDaBoat (edited 07-13-2000).]

[caveman]

Tack I do agree. 100% And I am sure if it was awarded to ind. and not a unit, rank would play to big of a part as to who gets what!

[Gary]

To throw in the Corps two cents, the CIB’s Marine Corps equivalent is the CAR (Combat Action Ribbon). It is an individual award and is not given out to units as a whole. You need to send rounds down range while taking fire, then get approval from Sec Nav.

[Felix]

Tack,
Come on...you guys get those neat, funny hats, jump boots, and a badge for almost every three week school you attend. All we get for our trouble and toil for almost a year is badge that 95% of the Army doesn't even recognize as a piece US military insignia, and the other 5% really believe you're a 12B that took a correspondence course(including a disturbing number of 12B's, odly enough). Come on Tack, lemme keep it....please...pretty please...LOL. Actually, you raise a good point. First thing in the morning I will rewrite the eloquent, enrapturing and highly persuasive comments I had written up before AOL (the dirty, dirty hooors) booted me offline as I was finishing them, which led to this more abbreviated and chuckle filled post...later Tack.

[RifleMaster]

Caveman and TackDaBoat,

The CIB and CMB are individual awards. I do not believe they have ever been awarded by unit.

I have placed a scan of my CIB Special Order in my Photo album "RifleMaster #1" within SOCCHAT. It states that it is an individual award.

The requirements for the CIB are as listed above. Basically, an individual has to have engaged an enemy in ground combat while serving in an Infantry MOS.

I do not know how many times I was engaged in combat before I was put in for the CIB. I remember some people in Vietnam saying that 30 days in an Infantry unit was also required. This may have been to qualify non Infantry branch officers or non Infantry MOS EM's in an Infantry assignment/MOS.

There is know doubt in my mind that I was very lucky in combat. I remember more than ten contacts where I returned with friendly and/or enemy blood on me. I think there were four or five times my blood was drawn, but they were all minor injuries. Most were treated later by an antiseptic obtained from an ARVN Medic. Yep, there were no US Medics on our Teams! There were US Medics at our Advisory Team 70 Headquarters and they were awarded CMB's/CFMB's! I don't remember ever seeing them on a field operation or under enemy fire! I guess when they flew out monthly with the Pay Officers and gave us our vaccinations they meet the requirements! BTW, I hated those horse shots in the ass!

But, who cares? They know what they did or didn't do to earn them! What matters is that they did the job they were assigned. I would have been extremely pissed if they didn't or couldn't treat one of my Teammates/soldiers that needed their expertise. Back then while in the bush, I had very litle respect for anyone that couldn't do their job. And, badges and rank didn't mean shit to me when the bullets were flying and lives were on the line! Believe it or not, I once said something like "Sir, I'll do it" and took the radio handmic from an Infantry LTC and adjusted danger close arty. Ya gota do, what ya gota do!

[josepy]

Not to dispute you facts or opinion Gary but in the Gulf everyone who was North of the Saudi border(in 1/1) got the Combat Action Ribbon. It was a unit award.

I personally lost most of my respect for the ribbon myself. I am sure the Army had the same problem with the CIB.

I really like the CIB idea a lot and if the Corps had to adapt a badge that would be the one. Hell if the pogue ass airwingers can get a "Combat Aircrew" then why not? I busted so many "Taskforce Xray" pogues aircrews on float.

[Sharky]

Flamethrower switched back to safe mode. Put the insect repellent down tack. Sorry caveman, I'm a little sensitive about people who talk about that operation but have never been there. I have my reasons. I also agree with you that not everyone earned the CIB but how are you gonna tell who did and who didn't? I dont have a good answer for that and will let the experts figure it out. (The shark swims back to his lair)

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[Ranger1]

Gents,

Why not scrap the 'CIB' and make it a 'ACB'(American Combat Badge), and award it to ANYONE(individually, not as a unit) who is in a combat theatre of operations, and under fire, regardless of MOS or branch?

I mean, tell me CCT's attached to the 75th and D don't deserve the exact same award for the exact same actions. Or some poor (13C?)RTO running around after their Lt on a hot DZ?

Question is, what would it look like?

-Kirk
"All I ever wanted to be, was an Airborne Ranger with a CIB!"

[RangerCharlie]

I have the CIB and I feel small wearing it next to my dad who earned one serving 2 1/2 years during the Korean Conflict.
I feel better about my CJW, I felt that was earned, unlike some units can say.

[jds]

I agree with RgrCharlie I never felt right wearing the CIB for the Isle of Spice invasion especially compared to those veterans that came before.What about the Group guys in El Salvador shouldn't they have recieved the CIB.
JDS

[SAPPER317]

El Salvador was not considered a "combat" zome and the SF were on a "training" mission to "advise" the military down there.

Sure...

SAPPER317

[RifleMaster]

RangerCharlie and jds,

You did the job that you were sent to do. You were awarded the CIB and CJW because you meet the requirements period. They represent your personal courage under fire, so wear them proudly!

I wish I had earned Combat Jump Wings!

[LRSC Grunt]

About 2 years ago I read in Soldier Magazine that the CIB and unit combat patch is now authorized for "select" personel who served in El Savador during about a 10 year period(cant remember the dates).


3 years ago I was in line at the chow hall. Out of the corner of my eye I cought an E-2 with a shaved head, taking a closer look he had a tab, CIB, CJWs, and scroll combat patch(come to find out he just returned after almost a decade break in service!). Now tell me, if he wasnt wearing his "trinkets" would he be more prone to being "sharpshooted" by anyone walking past him. Hmmmm...... Or what about the NCO I met while in Air Assault school, who also had a tab, EIB, and JWs. He too had a large break in service and was now a cannon cocker. From what he told me he had to go through the entire arty OSUT to include basic! Hmmm...did drill sgt treat him like a cherry private when he showed up sporting a well earned ranger tab? Just goes to show the reason why we wear them.

"You can take a soldiers rank, but you cant take his qualifications."



[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 07-15-2000).]

[LRSC Grunt]

Badges dont but the school or combat experience of which they represent do! That is why they are worn!



[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 07-15-2000).]

[wolfhound227]

Nothing to add,just wanted to be the
100th post.

http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

[Jupiter]

Grunt,
What of the guy who was a leg tanker or engineer or arty and left the service? He wouldn't have trinkets to impress the drill sergeant (who earned his CIB and bronze star during the Gulf War, regardless he never saw an Iraqi other than on CNN), but he would have combat experience and extensive training in his old MOS. Those badges may have had a place in their time, but in today's army they hold very little value. Sure, you may have had a miserable few weeks or so getting it, but how does your misery rate more than that of say a 12B in the sapper leader's course, or even all the extra time and effort that some service support people do? How much action did the infantry see in the mech war? How is the 11B more deserving of a trinket than the cook getting mortared on the Mogidishu airfield? I think the modern army needs to rethink it's badges/tabs/hats and while it is at it, it's sorry system of medals & ribbons. And before I get flamed with "those who don't have them..." replies, I can choose to wear up to the five allowed.

[MP18D]

Interesting thread, now that I figgered out how to get to page 2 n 3...But an interesting thought came to me. Actually first advanced by Tracy in another forum...
I have 20yrs in law enforcement, 16 in SF (both AD and yes, Nasty Guard/Reserves) The only thing I wear on my cop suit (when I wear it, we in SWAT usually work in plain clothes) is my badge and S.E.D. pin. Yet I have seen much more "combat" as a cop then I ever did in SF-and I have 2 CMB's etc etc. In discussions with my counterpart on our day SED team (who is former Force Recon) as well as numerous Nam vets who have been in SED, we all agree that this is true for most cops in medium to large departments. I guarantee that the former Marines who inhabit LAPD would agree...We've discussed this at length. Yet no department that I know of has any type of combat badge/ribbon/device. Nor do you get one for completing schools such as SWAT, Sniper, EOD, detective or whatever. The only decoration that counts is the one you get at the completion of your Academy, your Badge. I think the belief is that the "combat" thing is a part of the job...not the best part, but oftentimes necessary, just like in the military. If you wear the badge/uniform, you gotta expect to take the good with the bad. The folks doing the job know what they have done..Just going to work everyday is enough to have BTDT....
I have yet to figure out why the military is any different. The constant sharpshooting between operator/support/Army/Navy/USMC gets old. You better believe if I go to LA, NY, Houston wherever I am respected by my LE brethern because I wear a badge. Nothing else matters. It is up to me to prove I deserve that respect. The same, unfortunately is not true in the military.
I enjoy my time in both the Army and LE, I too wear all the "bolo badges" which with a buck will get me a soda at the BX. Yet as my old partner said" It does not matter what you once did...It only matters what you can do on command.
Nuff said.

[whisky_8]

My opinion after having 8 years team time in group is that the badges do not make the man. Most any team guy who has more than 3 or 4 years on a team is known by his reputation, not his badges. A guy can wear all or none of his badges or awards on his uniform and he is still know by his reputation. Actually, if someone is wearing everything, they wil be ostracized if they can not back it up through proven competency.

W8

[LRSC Grunt]

I understand that, but why make everyone take them off? You can take yours off, but I wont. Hell, whats the purpose of AR 670-1 or AR 672-5-1? I have yet to see the day that a bat boy or long tab goes steril in garrison. Me comming from ft campbell(home of 5th gp and 160SOAR) never seen it.

[whisky_8]

Grunt,
Maybe this might explain why everyone appears to wear eveything. At a minimum, in garrison, the arrowhead and tabs have to be worn. Try hanging out at the PX Mini Mall at lunch time in a sterile uniform and see how long it takes before someone gets uptight about it. Most guys will not sew every single patch and tab on because it is expensive for one thing. Including name, rank, RSI, tabs, etc, I'm authorized 12 patches. The uniform itself cost roughly $50, and it's $1.25 a patch, and I have about 6 uniforms (you do the math). Yes, you might see me at the PX with arrowhead, tab and master wings, but thats all I'll have on because it's required. I'll save the uniform with everything for the times that I think I need to wear it, like change of commands, Staff duty, etc.

W8

[Swat1]

I agree with MP 18D, and brother if you ever come up my way, the soda's on me.

Swat1*

[LRSC Grunt]

Exactly my point!! You said that you would wear everything only if you were in the publics eye, such as cerimonies, SD or whatever. I feel that it should be a personal descretion, but not totally eliminate them from everyone.

[Ranger1]

They'll make a movie about this thread...."A Thread Too Far"

-Kirk

[whisky_8]

Grunt,
No, I do not wear the uniform with everything on it because I'm in the public eye and I want to be noticed. Unofficially, it is required to wear a uniform with everything on it for some occasions. Just like the PX, try and go to a change of command wearing a sterile uniform and see how many SGMs whig out. Situations like that are a simple skill level 1 decision. I really dont care what someone else might think if they see I have a uniform with all or none of my patches on. I was trying to elude to earlier that it is your reputation which will precede you, not the number of patches on your uniform.

W8

[realpolypro]

Movie two..."The Thin Thread Line" http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

Polypro

[WS-G]

And then there's the pending remake of a certain mid-60's classic...

Bolo — trinket-wearers defend their PX at the bloody Battle of Puke's Drift.

------------------
ex Co. G (-)(Abn/Rgr), 143d INF(LRRP), TXARNG 1981-1985
ex 433MAW (AFRES), 1985-1991
FAA-certificated pilot and Advanced Ground Instructor

[RifleMaster]

There have been alot of good points made in this thread! I'm wondering how to summarize the main points so that we can move on to solving other world problems.

Summary: 1) People/soldiers want their accomplishments recognized. Maybe not on their BDU's but certainly on their dress uniforms. 2) The purpose of the current training badges and tabs is to entice recruits into the more dangerous and demanding MOS's. 3) It is debateable whether recruits volunteer for the badge and tab schools to obtain the training or the recognition. Either way, if they make it they once met the requirements! 4) Not all that have met the badges and tabs requirements will be able to apply the skills in actual combat. Training doesn't test charater or personal courage. 5) Badges, tabs, and other awards are not equally available or fairly awarded throughout the Army.

Maybe us civilian professionals should follow the Army's lead. A basic brain surgeon could wear a silver badge consisting of a brain over crossed scalpels. A senior brain surgeon could wear a similar badge having a star on top. A master brain surgeon could wear a similar badge containing a star and wreath. A basic heart surgeon could wear .....! However, I don't think I would want my brain surgeon to have taken his training just for the recognition of wearing the badge! Hell, I may have to depend on him to save my life!

It is obviously time to move on!

Thanks for all the replies.