SWCS starts 18X pipeline

[Sinister Dave]

Army recruits now enlisting into Special
Forces

by Spc. Kyle J. Cosner

FORT BRAGG, N.C. (Army News Service, April 12, 2002) -- A new Army program that lets recruits enlist directly into rigorous Special Forces training here is currently underway and receiving a favorable response from civilians interested in earning the coveted Green Beret, according to officials from the U.S. Army Recruiting Command at Fort Knox, Ky.

"Since we restored the program, the results have been extremely positive," said Capt. David P. Connolly, a Public Information Officer at the U.S.
Army Recruiting Command. "We anticipate achieving mission success well before the end of the fiscal year."

Revived in mid-January, the Special Forces Recruiting Initiative is a return to the original Special Forces recruitment process, which began in 1952 and allowed both civilians and servicemen to sign up for the nearly two years of training necessary to become a Green Beret.

"I think this program is the best thing to happen to Special Forces in years," said Col. Charles A. King, 1st Special Warfare Training Group Airborne)
commander. "It will allow us to recruit the right kind of guy off the street, train him, prepare him and mold him right from the start."

The training group is responsible for the training of all Special Forces recruits.

In 1988, the recruiting process was adjusted to allow only soldiers already in the Army to become Special Forces qualified.

"The Army at that time had three-quarters of a million people in it, and Special Forces was about 20 percent smaller than it is right now," King said. "With the Army being bigger and Special Forces being smaller, we discontinued the (recruiting) program. Things have now evolved to a point where we're down to a 480,000-person Army with significantly larger Special Forces groups."

"We are restoring a program which we used to have, in order to meet our current operational requirements," King said. "We have the added benefit of having looked back and studied the (pre-1988) program. We're going to improve on it (with the Special Forces Recruiting Initiative)."

As of March 28, Army recruiters have already filled 140 of the 400 slots allotted for civilians enlisting into the Special Forces Recruiting Initiative, according to Connolly. He said since the initiative's pilot program was started in January, it has met with much interest among those interested in the military.

According to data provided by the recruiting command, the first 56 Special Forces recruits shipped out during the first week in April to begin the nearly two years of training required to earn the Green Beret.

Among the 140 Special Forces hopefuls recruited so far, Connolly said 22 possess undergraduate degrees, three have a master's degree and two have
earned a doctorate degree.

"We are seeing a great deal of quality in these applicants," Connolly said.

Recruits who begin training under the new program will enter the Army as a private first class, eventually earning the rank of sergeant when they
complete training, King said.

"This program is not about putting privates on Special Forces teams. A soldier that comes in (the Army) under this program will join a team as a
noncommissioned officer," he added.

Capt. Joe Martin, a 1st Special Warfare Training Group (Abn.) training detachment commander, said the new recruits will have a slightly different
initial training process that will result in a higher success rate than past Special Forces hopefuls going through the Special Forces Assessment and Selection process.

Special Forces Assessment and Selection is designed to advance only highly qualified soldiers to the next levels of Special Forces training, officials said.

Martin said traditional in-service recruits go straight to Special Forces Assessment and Selection from their unit when they volunteer for Special Forces training. To prepare those recruited under the new recruiting initiative for success in the assessment process, the 1st Special Warfare Training Group (Abn.) has created the Special Operations Preparation and Conditioning course.

"A soldier coming through (the course) will be better prepared for getting through assessment and selection than one who didn't," Martin said. During the class, veteran Special Forces soldiers conduct intensive training in land navigation, physical training and other soldier skills with recruits.

In just four weeks, a class of soldiers who volunteered for Special Forces training from infantry training at Fort Benning, Ga., improved their average score on the Army Physical Fitness Test by 30 points at the conditioning course, from 229 to 259, Martin said. The recently enlisted soldiers were used as training prototypes for the civilians recruited under the new
initiative.

King said the initial Special Operations Preparation and Conditioning courses' successes were outstanding - out of 39 soldiers, only 3 didn't meet the assessment and selection standard.

"At (Special Forces Assessment and Selection), we typically lose about 50 percent of the class," King said.

King also said another advantage of enlisting civilian volunteers directly into Special Forces training was the fact they would be able to provide more years of service than someone recruited in-service, who typically already
has about eight years of service in the Army when they volunteer. Civilians recruited under the Special Forces Recruiting Initiative will on average have slightly more than two years in service when they complete their training
and are assigned to a team.

"They will be able to give us a full career," King said.

Chris Crain, a retired Special Forces master sergeant, enlisted directly into Special Forces training in 1969. He said the return to "off-the-street" recruiting is something he feels will help bring highly qualified individuals into
the Green Berets' ranks.

"I think there's going to be a select part of our youth that will see this as an opportunity to do something they might not otherwise have an opportunity to do," Crain said.

Crain said when he entered Special Forces training, it was tough and designed "to weed out the weak." He said he was glad to see the current
prerequisites for training were created with the same purpose in mind - to produce the best-qualified soldiers possible.

"With these kind of qualifications (for the recruits), they are really going to help the force," Crain said.

Despite the program's popularity with the recruits, some have characterized it as a move to quickly inflate the ranks of busy Special Forces teams, de-emphasizing high standards. King said criticism was aimed at the program because of its creation during the heavy use of Special Forces
soldiers in Operation Enduring Freedom was unfounded.

"There is some misconception that we are doing this because of Sept. 11. We have been working on an initial-accession program for quite some time
- what Sept. 11 did was merely cause us to move up the timetable," King said.

"People have to understand that we have been training Special Forces soldiers for 50 years. There is nobody in this organization that is interested in taking shortcuts or compromising how we train. But everybody in this organization is absolutely confident in our ability to train these young men to standard."

[CarreraGT]

I was about to post a question regarding this very thing, figure I might as well just tack on to this: I just got through with the recruiters and came away with two options for what I wanted- the Ranger contract, or the SF contract. The general recommendation was to go Ranger first, the reason being that if I wanted to eventually be in SF, this would give me a much better chance of succeeding.

But, about two months ago, I finished up 5 months of physical training for the SEAL Challenge contract into the Navy, then didn't go through with it (don't ask). Now I see the error in my decision, but decided I'm more suited to be a soldier than a sailor. Point being- I'm in good physical shape already. (After briefly playing pro hockey a couple years ago).

As a side question, I was told that I basically couldn't 'wash-out' of Ranger training; that after Jump School, I would "cycle train" with the 5th Btn until I passed and earned my tab. Is this true?

Any/all help would be greatly appreciated- I go to MEPS in Los Angeles on WED to sign up, so I have to have a decision by then. Thanks!

[JLove]

I am not SF or Ranger and new to the board, so I have not BTDT, BUT:

I have never heard of anyone NOT being able to wash out of Ranger training. My good friend served 4 years with the 75th at Ft. Lewis and according to him you certainly can wash-out, whether you quit for lack of motivation or leave for a medical reason. From my understanding, you do not get to chill in Batt until you can make it, although you do spend time at Batt before going. Besides, from the Rangers I knew up at Lewis, I don't think you'd be living such a good life at Batt if you kept failing.

I am scheduled to go to OCS in September. I looked at both SF and Rgr programs before enlisting. If you fail you will be up for world-wide assignment. You may be referring to whether or not you might fail a phase at school and get recycled, this does happen. When my buddy was failed during Mtn Phase he knew if he did not pass Mtns the second time he was gone. But he did not go back to Batt during refit, he stayed at school playing opfor and other stuff.

[Ranger002]

Do some research you two. Look back through the posts here. You can most definately FAIL and you will be sent wherever the Army needs you. You will need both luck and a won't quit attitude to succeed.

William Hazen

[JLove]

RH,

Yeah I think that's what I said, except I used Wash-Out instead of Fail. And World-wide deployment was my term for Needs of the Army. If something in my post was off, let me know so I can get my understanding straight. As you mentioned, I have also been told luck is an extremely important factor in the scheme of things.

Thanks

[Ranger002]

Originally posted by JLove
RH,

Yeah I think that's what I said, except I used Wash-Out instead of Fail. And World-wide deployment was my term for Needs of the Army. If something in my post was off, let me know so I can get my understanding straight. As you mentioned, I have also been told luck is an extremely important factor in the scheme of things.

Thanks

You're cool and I only suggest a minor adjustment...Quit "wondering" what happens if you fail. Focus on succeeding...Thinking about "failing" is a mindbomb just waiting to go off...

William Hazen

[Recon Ryno]

I'll tell you this whole thing really bothers me. The only reason I got back and switched from Marines to ARNG was to go SF believing I would only be working with professionals. I find it rather hard to believe that’s what is going to come out of this. How can you be any kind of a decent NCO and never even have been assigned to a unit. Some of these kids will be 20yrs old SF Sergeants are you kidding me. There are 20 and 21yr old Spc in Ranger Batts that are shit hot that have shown leadership skills that should be getting these slots. Unless these new recruits have some unbelievable skill , their a doctor or linguist or something this is bullshit. Where is the Army’s loyalty its solders. I don’t know about here in the Army but in the Marines, NCO was a title earned not given to some boot.

Ryno

Semper Fi
Strenght & Honor
Whatever it Takes

[TOW Gunner]

Originally posted by Recon Ryno
Some of these kids will be 20yrs old SF Sergeants are you kidding me. There are 20 and 21yr old Spc in Ranger Batts that are shit hot that have shown leadership skills that should be getting these slots. Unless these new recruits have some unbelievable skill , their a doctor or linguist or something this is bullshit. Where is the Army’s loyalty its solders. I’m to pissed to go any further. I don’t know about here in the Army but in the Marines NCO was a title earned not given to some boot.

Ryno

Semper Fi
Strenght & Honor
Whatever it Takes

Before you go on a rant denouncing the program, perhaps you should do a little research of it on this site. There is an excellent post I remember seeing from a former SF soldier explaining the benefits of the program. Until I find it, think about this: The reason the Army is recruiting SF soldiers from the streets is because Regular Army soldiers aren't meeting the recruiting demands. They got to get their "professionals" from somewhere.
And why does this "piss" you off so much? These young soldiers will have to meet the same standards as you will. Who are you to say that's not enough to become an NCO or SF soldier? It's great that you enter this challenge with your experience in the Marines. However, don't show up thinking you're some kind of better person/soldier than the 18xer's. I've talked with some of the recent SOPC II graduates (all SFAS graduates) who passed selection with no problem. While at selection they encountered attitudes just like yours from experienced infantry NCO's and even some Rangers. Ya know what.....some of those NCO's didn't make it. The ones who did had nothing but positive things to say about the 18xer's.
I will now look for that post, as it will explain things much clearer than I can, and help you remove your head from your ass.

-A de facto Boot

[Doc]

The 18X's will go through two years of some pretty intense training; SFAS, Small Unit Tactics, Troop Leading Procedures, MOS Training, Robin Sage, Language School, Sere, etc.

Individual and Group survival under varied conditions will be stressed.

That's a hell of a lot of training and stressful conditions that must be passed successfully for a man to make SGT, E-5. The guys that pass earn their rank, I can assure you. Those that think SF is giving away rank don't know WTF they are talking about.

A lot of good guys will not make the cut and will go needs of the Army. In spite of that, men are still trying. My hats off to anyone who goes in and gives 110%.

Those that think their shit don't stink don't need to go SF. It will be a very humbling yet short experience.

DOL

[Recon Ryno]

Hey Guys, don't get me wrong, if these kids can make it through(and they damn well better be able to with 18yr old bodies), my hats of to them. Do I think they deserve the Tab, hell yah the Army made this so that everyone had to go through the exact same thing. But E-5 in two years I'm sorry but that’s just not right.

And don't get me wrong here if here, I'm not taking about trigger time or anything like that. I'm taking about maturity as a solider. Understanding how things work in the system.

I thought after all my schools and running live patrols in the PI JOBs I new it all. Then I got to the FMF and it was a whole new deal. Education in schools is great, and the Army has some of the best schools lined up for these guys, I can see that, but at the end of the day these guys earned their TAB not E-5 in my book.

And I'll say it again, I can't believe there's not people in the system that should be filling these slots - just look at how full next years classes are and tell me their having a had time filling slots.

And if you think the AD PS people aren't passing as well as these new guys, then think what would happen if all the salts going to SFAS had the money spent on schools and training that the new guys are getting before they go. You have all that consistent training and conditioning you wore taking about before you go and still don't pass you should be shot in the head. Those of us in the Guard have to do it ourselves on our own time.

I'm sorry if you think from my last thread I've got an attitude but a positive mental attitude is the only way to go into SFAS and here in the guard you've got to fight tooth and nail to just to get a slot on a training team and even then it will still take luck. I'm not pissed at the young guy just dissapointed in the Army's change in the matter.

And please don't come back taking about commitment. There’s many of us giving up time w/ wives and kids for months at a time to stand in those ranks let alone lucrative jobs that aren’t going to pay us or possibly even fire us while we're gone. I'm not saying here that I'm the bigest and badest on the block and first to admit it, but you can bet your ass I'll never Quit.

Sorry to rant,

Peace out

Ryno
Semper Fi
Whatever it takes

[TOW Gunner]

Originally posted by Recon Ryno
Do I think they deserve the Tab, hell yah the Army made this so that everyone had to go through the exact same thing. But E-5 in two years I'm sorry but that’s just not right. And don't get me wrong here if here, I'm not taking about trigger time or anything like that. I'm taking about maturity as a solider. Understanding how things work in the system. Education in schools is great, and the Army has some of the best schools lined up for these guys, I can see that, but at the end of the day these guys earned their TAB not E-5 in my book.

(He says in excited sarcastic voice....)
Well shit!! Someone should tell the Army about this! Gee, you would think the experienced professionals who designed this program would have thought of that beforehand. If someone doesn't notify them soon they'll produce substandard NCO's, painfully incapable of performing their duties! I hope I can slip through before anyone finds out. (Sarcasm subsides)

Look, half of being smart is knowing what you're dumb at. Your ignorance of this program is obvious. When you realize that you'll be at 35% (post to follow shall include spelling and grammar errors; approx. 15% increase in smarts should the subject absorb evident stupidity). I was unable to track down that post I previously wrote about, however, it runs along the lines of what Doc posted above. Training was broken down into individual courses, schools, and phases, with time for each noted to the side. For 18xer's it was about two years. This did not include holdover periods between training. I've seen the amount of time some of these guys have been in holdover. It's safe to say that it'll be around 3 years. I think that after 3 years some of us will "catch on" to how things work. I had over 2 years in a National Guard infantry company before coming here. It could've been 10 and it would still mean dick. Sure, the experience I have there will aid my success, but it doesn't mean that I have any more right to be here than someone off the street. In fact, I'm fuckin' proud of most of these guys. They just got done having their asses kicked around OSUT for 4 months, and then they volunteer to come here knowing that it's only gonna get worse. That fucking motivates me. Now, before I get to tired I gotta grade a paper.

[TOW Gunner]

Parenthesis indicates correction of error.

Originally posted by Recon Ryno
I'll tell you(,) this whole thing really bothers me. The only reason I got back and switched from Marines to ARNG was to go SF(,) believing I would only be working with professionals. I find it rather hard to believe that’s what is going to come out of this. How in the hell can you be any kind of a decent NCO and never even have been assigned to a unit.(?) Some of these kids will be 20yrs old SF Sergeants(.) (cap. "A")are you kidding me.(?) There are 20 and 21yr old Spc in Ranger Batts that are shit hot that have shown leadership skills that should be getting these slots. Unless these new recruits have some unbelievable skill , their(they're; as in "they are") a doctor or linguist or something(.) (cap "T") this is bullshit. Where is the Army’s loyalty (ins "to") its solders.(?) I’m to(sp. "too") pissed to go any further. I don’t know about here in the Army(,) but in the Marines NCO was a title earned(,) not given to some boot.

Ryno

Semper Fi
Strenght (sp. "Strength")& Honor
Whatever it Takes

- 14
Sorry, you failed. You'll have to repeat this thread. I left your fucked up sentence structure alone, but you get the picture. Reading your post is painful. My condolences to your English teachers.

[ex_CavScout]

My concerns about the 18X program aren't with those who pass, but with those who will fail. I feel the regular Army will be getting the shaft because they will be getting a SPC or SGT without any experience - just a lot of schools.
Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't think the failures from the 18X option will be dirtbags, just someone who will be lacking the experience to fill a squad leader role immediately. Of course, this does depend on how far the 18x'r has made it through the course before being dropped and when promotions are obtained.

Something to think about....

[PS11B10]

I think Mike Yon and a few other AD SF 'Babies' past and present would disagree with you as well as most of the REP 63's in the 19th and 20th.

[18C4V]

Fuck it, just like any other school that I've been to. People slip through the cracks. I went to phase 2 with a lot of rep 63's and some were good and some were pieces of shit. However the course can't teach a rep-63 or an SF baby how to be tactically proficent such as being a WSL or SL . That comes with experience in being in a line company. What I do say is if you're a rep 63 or an SF baby, keep your mouth shut, listen and learn, and you won't get peered. You will have alot of E-6's and E-5's 11 series who are victor qualified who don't want to baby sit in phase 2.
You're getting an opportunity that many of us didn't get so don't fuck it up.

[Stampee]

I feel the regular Army will be getting the shaft because they will be getting a SPC or SGT without any experience - just a lot of schools. Yeah, who the hell want's guys leading other troops around that have only school experience it has led to nothing but royal blunders in the past...wait a second...I have a question:

How much experience do most ROTC graduates have when they enter AD? And what is the percentage of OCS graduates that have very little or no field experience?

Hmmm...just wondering. Cuz if I'm not mistaken, I believe the Army puts those guys in leadership positions once in a while.

Dan

Disclaimer: For those who might not have caught it, some of my remarks are intended to be sarcastic.

[TOW Gunner]

Originally posted by ex_CavScout
My concerns about the 18X program aren't with those who pass, but with those who will fail. Of course, this does depend on how far the 18x'r has made it through the course before being dropped and when promotions are obtained.

Something to think about....

I haven't seen any RA guys going on to the Q course w/ the rank of SGT; only NG guard guys. There won't be much (if any) of an inlux of unexperienced NCO's sent to RA units from the SF Q. They will be E-4 and below. Not a big worry. Later.

[Recon Ryno]

I guess you just won’t get it so I’ll stop here. Thanks for the grammar report didn’t realize you received grades on the Internet. The last classes I taught were combatives and CQB tactics so forgive my English teacher, she hasn’t seen me in twelve years.

The maturity in this board just overwhelms me.
Makes me wonder if you tell your students to pull their head out of their ass, or just people you don't know.

Good luck to all of getting ready for SFAS.
As for you teacher, I hope you enjoy your day job.

And before I go take a look at how the 18x's are doing at bening in Huggies post:

http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15419

At least half are doing OK-wonder what the bill was to train the other half.
Rynos out of this room.

[ex_CavScout]

Originally posted by TOW Gunner


I haven't seen any RA guys going on to the Q course w/ the rank of SGT; only NG guard guys. There won't be much (if any) of an inlux of unexperienced NCO's sent to RA units from the SF Q. They will be E-4 and below. Not a big worry. Later.

TG,

If that is the case, then I don't see much of a negative impact to the RA. They should be getting a high speed E-4 wanting to excel - good ground work for them to step up to E-5. I didn't know if a soldier had to be E-5 before they went to Q course or not.

Stampee,

I see your point about the lack of experience on the junior officer side; however, a platoon leader isn't tasked with training soldiers nor directly leading them in the "grunt" work.
Of course, it would be an entire other thread to give my thoughts on the problems with our current method of selecting officers.

[ex_CavScout]

Originally posted by Razor


Hmm, I guess my memories of doing that kind of stuff are incorrect then. Waddaya know?

Razor,

It wasn't meant as disrespect to officers; however, it is an NCO's job to train soldiers and lead them in the "grunt" work. It wouldn't be a good thing to have a PL or CO marking/ clearing a minefield, sitting on OP, disarming mines, and so on - who would be running the platoon if he was having fun like the rest of us?

Of course, I didn't say there were officers that didn't do those things - just wasn't their primary responsibility, at least in the RA.

[Razor]

Originally posted by ex_CavScout

I see your point about the lack of experience on the junior officer side; however, a platoon leader isn't tasked with training soldiers nor directly leading them in the "grunt" work.
Of course, it would be an entire other thread to give my thoughts on the problems with our current method of selecting officers.

Hmm, I guess my memories of doing that kind of stuff are incorrect then. Waddaya know?