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Danfreedman
13 May 2002, 15:10
Marines Set Aside Go-It-Alone Attitude
Plans call for special forces to help in next phase of war on terrorism. It's a move away from the branch's historic aloofness toward the other services.
By TONY PERRY, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
May 12, 2002
CAMP PENDLETON -- When Americans think of the U.S. military's elite, Army Rangers and Navy SEALs come to mind--not the Marine Corps' Force Reconnaissance.
That could change with a decision by the Marine Corps to drop what some saw as organizational aloofness and join the other military services in coordinating special warfare operations.
In another sign that the war on terrorism is reshaping the U.S. military, officials from the Marine Corps and the U.S. Special Operations Command recently met to discuss how Force Recon and other Marines trained in special operations can help as the war enters its next phase.
Before Sept. 11, the Marine Corps had largely remained unconnected to SOCOM, the control center in Tampa, Fla., that Congress established in 1987 to handle special operations planning and reduce interservice rivalry. The Marines have been the only service not to commit troops to SOCOM.
But the war in Afghanistan--and Marine Commandant Gen. James L. Jones Jr.'s desire to bolster Force Recon and the Marines' other special operations units--led to a change that was unthinkable until recently.
Jones, whose father commanded an amphibious reconnaissance company in World War II, is considering organizing a reconnaissance unit specifically for SOCOM, a major commitment for an organization such as the Marine Corps with an unusually small budget and a go-it-alone ethos.
Retired Col. Fred Peck said the commitment to SOCOM shows the Marine Corps is moving away from its historic aversion to getting involved in operations with other services.
"The conventional wisdom used to be: If we carve out our own unique niche, then we won't have to engage in turf wars with our much larger service brothers," Peck said. "Jumping into the joint arena was greatly feared [by Marine brass] for a long while."
Like other military planners, Jones believes the war on terrorism will be fought less by massive headlong assaults and more by small units that can move quickly, conduct surveillance and intelligence-gathering, then apply firepower in concentrated bursts.
"'The Sands of Iwo Jima' is a great movie, but it doesn't reflect the reality of how we will fight in the future," Jones said.
Experts say the Marines have already adroitly adapted to the new kind of warfare that emphasizes joint operations.
"The Marines see a [need] for fast, light, mobile units that they believe they can fill quickly because it suits who they already are," said Charles Peña, senior defense policy analyst at the Cato Institute, a Washington-based Libertarian think tank.
"The last thing the Marines want is to be left on the bench in the next war," Peña added.
Overshadowed by their more publicized counterparts in the Army and Navy, the Marine Corps' equivalent of special forces got little notice in the weeks preceding the Oct. 7 start of the U.S. offensive in Afghanistan--even though special operations Marines from Camp Pendleton and Camp Lejeune, N.C., were already on ships in the Arabian Sea and in secret bases in Pakistan.
With about 800 personnel, the Marines' special operation force is the smallest of the military's special forces units. The Navy has about 4,500 such personnel and the Army about 25,000.
Formed during World War II, Force Recon is trained for most of the same missions as Navy SEALs and Army Special Forces, although they are not taught to rescue hostages or work with "indigenous" forces such as the Afghan resistance fighters.
Force Recon is only the core of the Marines' special operations capability. When they deploy, they are supplemented by other combat Marines who have received special training.
If the Marines were overlooked in the media buildup to the Afghan offensive, it may have been their own fault.
Force Recon and other special operations-trained Marines have never received the self-promotion that the Navy lavishes on its SEALs or the Army on its Green Berets and Rangers. It is both a source of pride and annoyance to Marines.
"Relatively unknown outside of the Department of Defense, they neither seek nor suffer the publicity of others in the business," says a Web site organized by former Force Recon Marines.
Author Tom Clancy barely mentions the Marines in his new book, "Shadow Warriors: Inside the Special Forces," written with former SOCOM commander Carl Stiner.
One problem for the Marine Corps may begin with its vocabulary: It avoids the term "special forces," which has become a media buzz phrase. Another problem is cultural: Marines tend to downplay any suggestion of elitism within their ranks.
"The Marine Corps has a lot of aspects that are deeply deadly," said Capt. Anthony Bolden, operations officer with Force Recon at Camp Pendleton. "We're just one of them."
Along with the new SOCOM partnership, the Marines also are seeking to boost the appeal of Force Recon within its ranks by changing their rules to allow enlisted personnel to make a career in a reconnaissance unit. Until now, enlisted Marines had to leave the unit to get promoted beyond a midgrade level, which led to turnover and loss of continuity.
In Afghanistan, a Force Recon unit from Camp Pendleton organized "hunter-killer" teams in early December to block Taliban and Al Qaeda forces from fleeing the battle at Kandahar, the kind of mission that might have gone to an Army Special Forces unit.
Before they left the outpost dubbed Camp Rhino, the Marines got a lecture from Brig. Gen. James Mattis.
"The first time they [Taliban and Al Qaeda] run into U.S. Marines, I want it to be the most traumatic experience of their miserable lives," Mattis told his Marines. "I want them to fear us and never want to engage us again."
Within hours, Force Recon had entered into a point-blank firefight under the pitch-black Central Asia sky, leaving eight enemy dead along a stretch of road known as Route 1. An airstrike killed dozens more. Taliban and Al Qaeda forces never again tried to use that strip of road.
Army Gen. Tommy Franks, commander of U.S. troops in Afghanistan, sent the Marines a note saying their prowess as a "power projection strike force was superbly demonstrated" on Route 1.
"It's such an obviously good thing for the nation," Jones said of the new ties between the corps and SOCOM, "and for the Marine Corps."'The conventional wisdom used to be: If we carve out our own unique niche, then we won't have to engage in turf wars with our much larger service brothers.'
If you want other stories on this topic, search the Archives at latimes.com/archives.
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jcollettusa
13 May 2002, 16:28
Interesting read.
dvldgindia
13 May 2002, 16:44
Ooh-fuckin'-rah!!!
lavbo0321
13 May 2002, 17:37
Good article. Even though it is from the L.A. (leftwing alliance) Times.
Just a few things that are not completly accurate.
I am curios about what unit we are going to create for SOCOM.
Can't wait to see how this play's out.
S/F
...is considering organizing a reconnaissance unit specifically for SOCOM...
Do you think it will warrant a new name? Or will it maintain its present nomenclature? Given the proclivities of the military to come up with nifty new names for things that are slightly different, I wonder...
Also, given the tendency of the military to try to come up with new names for defining "new" capabilities and given the apparent emphasis on gaining more media attention, I continue to wonder if a new name will be given to these Marines to give them a more "catchy-to-the-public" feel...
SBS?
Raider Platoons? (Well, the MEU already does this...)
Hm...interested to see how this plays out.
Speaking of Raider Battalions,
I watched a documentary last night on the History Channel about the Raider Batts and enjoyed it. I thought it was interesting that they stated that the Raider Battalions were the first Special Operations/Commando unit in the history of the US Armed Forces.
Oh, I am not, I repeat not trying to start a flame war by that last statement. Just repeating what I watched. I’m well aware that WWII was the impetus for creation of many SO units: SF/OSS/Rangers/Raiders/Scouts… well you get the hint.
I’m not sure about the overall historical accuracy or how well they captured their service for those of you in the know, but I thought it was a pretty decent piece. If you haven’t seen it yet, then I would highly recommend it.
By the way, they (Edson & Carlson and their men) were a bunch of studs – the longest patrol, combat records, etc, a big Ooo-Raah to the men that served in the Raiders!
SF
CTA
Echo-8-Hotel
16 May 2002, 14:37
We are fortunate enough to have Maj. Edson (the late Colonels Grandson) here at the School of Infantry as the C.O. of the Advanced Infantry Training Company. And yes... it is evident that some traits and characterics get passed down through the blood line. Major Edson is one helluva professional Marine!
They were discussion the personality traits between the two and stated that Carlson gave his troops a little more latitude (grooming standards, etc.) compared to Edson who was a by the book no BS Marine. Sounds like the apple did not fall too far from the tree. Oh 8H, glad you got that Gunny squared away;)
SF & Cheers!
Chris_L
16 May 2002, 16:16
They can only be even more lethal by being included in SOCOM.
Not to mention being just as well dressed as the SEALS are. It's about time Force Recon receive more funding, those guys deserve it.
Echo-8-Hotel
16 May 2002, 19:17
Originally posted by CTA
They were discussion the personality traits between the two and stated that Carlson gave his troops a little more latitude (grooming standards, etc.) compared to Edson who was a by the book no BS Marine. Sounds like the apple did not fall too far from the tree. Oh 8H, glad you got that Gunny squared away;)
SF & Cheers!
Roger That.
Semper Fi and Thanks :D
dvldgindia
16 May 2002, 21:34
That would be a good idea. Calling this new USMC special ops unit the Raiders. It would sure add some history behind it.
Originally posted by dvldgindia
Ooh-fuckin'-rah!!!
it's Ooh-$$$-rah!!!
It's about the money - always has been. Don't take this the wrong way, it's not at the troop level, it's the E-ring. GEN Jones is a smart man.
Chris_L
1 June 2002, 17:03
I don't know I thought I'd point it out, just check out what Czar's version of how the Marines got termed "Leathernecks", I don't know I was just wondering if anyone saw this before.
http://www.airborneranger.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000118
What do the Leathernecks here think?
FutureMustang
1 June 2002, 21:20
Halfway decent article. My only comment is his mention that "Tom Clancy barely mentions the Marines in his new book, "Shadow Warriors: Inside the Special Forces." It's probably because the book was about the Army Special Forces.
Confusing SF and SOF is a big pet peave of mine.
Oh well, who cares. I got bigger problems soon. Reporting for zero week of Ranger School on Tuesday.
dvldgindia
5 June 2002, 12:31
06/04/2002 - Updated 11:13 PM ET
Marines may add special ops force
By Dave Moniz, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — The Marine Corps, which has resisted creating a permanent unit of commandos throughout its 227-year history, has been spurred by the war on terrorism to move in that direction this fall.
The Marines will assign several dozen troops to a Tampa headquarters that oversees all U.S. commandos. That could prompt it to establish a special operations force, Marine officials say.
The move highlights how the war on terrorism has elevated the importance of commando units. Army Green Berets, Navy SEALs and Air Force rescue teams have played key roles in the hunt for al-Qaeda terrorists in Afghanistan.
The U.S. Special Operations Command will help integrate the Marines with the 46,000 Army, Navy and Air Force commandos it now oversees.
Although no final decision has been made on creating a separate commando unit, Marine Corps officials say the reassignments increase the odds that it will happen.
David Segal, a military sociologist at the University of Maryland, says the Afghanistan experience makes it clear "that our special operations capabilities have to grow."
"If you don't get into the game, the extra numbers of people will go to the other services," he says.
The Marine Corps had a small number of "raider" commandos during World War II, but it has opposed a permanent force because it believes every Marine is an elite fighter. A Marine creed is "Every Marine a rifleman."
Even so, the Marines have about 800 troops who are not considered commandos but receive special training in reconnaissance techniques similar to those used by Army Special Forces soldiers.
Lt. Col. Giles Kyser, a Marine officer familiar with the decision to assign Marine forces to Tampa headquarters, says the move will create a delicate balancing act. "We need to change our training and procedures," Kyser says, "while at the same time holding onto things that make us Marines."
lavbo0321
5 June 2002, 15:20
The creation of a 'permenent commando unit' in the Marines will take about 10 minutes. We already have a large pool of experianced and trained individuals ready to play the re-org game.
It will be interesting what they will call this force. And if we can have a new selection and training course. That in itself will be the one and only large change we will have to face.
Not that my opinion matters much, but I like dvldgindia's Raiders suggestion seeing how there is some history there.
CTA out
lavbo0321
5 June 2002, 18:03
That would be cool, but it would look to much like the Rangers.
What ever it is I hope it's cool.
Hey CTA
Two Words for you.
Classic Nomad
Enjoy!
I'm sure it will be, so that they can come up with cool recruiting commercials with Korn playing in the background and really fast editing :P
Lavbo... Hmmm, you lost me maybe old-timer's disease is already kicking in. Two words, the only things that come to mind are two things. Prefer not to mention online even though I think these things are open source info. Who knows, I could be completely off base. I think I might need a little remediation concerning this riddle. :D
CTA out
lavbo0321
6 June 2002, 11:08
If you were really a CTA then you know what it is. ;-)
Won't go into it here of course.
Just thought it would bring a knowing smile on your face.
yotanka
19 December 2002, 20:58
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20021219-9999_1mi19specops.html
By Jeanette Steele
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
December 19, 2002
The Marine Corps' first special operations unit, an experimental, 86-person group born out of the war against terrorism, will be based at Camp Pendleton and deploy with Navy SEALs from Coronado, Marine officials said yesterday.
The hand-picked unit – the Marines' tentative entry into elite special operations – will begin training in June and ship out in April 2004, said Lt. Col. Giles Kyser, head of the Corps' air-ground task force special operations section at the Pentagon.
Called the Marine Corps Special Operations Command Detachment, the unit emerged from the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, Kyser said. The Marine commandant, Gen. James Jones, felt the Corps would be required to work in new ways to hunt down terrorist threats, like it did as the first conventional ground force in the war in Afghanistan.
Jones formed the unit as a two-year pilot project to test the concept of Marines serving with units under the U.S. Special Operations Command in Tampa, Fla.
"The events of Operation Enduring Freedom showed there's a greater potential for Marine Corps and special operations forces units to be working together," Kyser said. "We're conducting the kind of offensive operations where operational security and forward deployment make a big difference. That's a natural marriage between naval expeditionary forces and the Special Operations Command."
If it succeeds, the Camp Pendleton-based contingent could be expanded or duplicated, Kyser said.
Lt. Col. Bob Coates, head of the Special Operations Training Group at Camp Pendleton, will lead the force. He couldn't be reached for comment yesterday, and base officials referred questions to the Pentagon.
Drawing from existing Marine specialties, the detachment will include 22 people in a headquarters element, 30 reconnaissance Marines, 28 intelligence operatives and a six-person team to provide firepower.
It will be trained to conduct four types of missions: special reconnaissance, such as scouting the enemy; short combat strikes; internal defense of foreign nations; and support of international coalitions.
The unit's missions will be like those performed by other special operations units, such as the SEALs and the Army's Green Berets, Kyser said.
Marine officials are screening applications from throughout the Corps to fill the team. Kyser said "an awful lot of people" have applied for what will undoubtedly be a prize job title in the Marine Corps, which already prides itself on being "America's 911 force."
The Camp Pendleton detachment will work together from June to October, then join the SEALs at the Naval Special Warfare Command in Coronado for joint training.
The Marine unit will deploy with the SEALs under the Navy command's authority for six-month periods, Kyser said. Camp Pendleton was chosen for the program because of its closeness to the SEAL base.
It's a momentous step for the Marine Corps, which didn't participate in the U.S. Special Operations Command when it was formed in 1987 as the Cold War ended.
The Marines didn't have the manpower to contribute then, and instead added a "special operations capable" training program to its Marine Expeditionary Units, which deploy around the world. At nearly 173,000 personnel, the Marine Corps is the smallest military service.
"Special operations forces are doing things all over the world right now," Kyser said. "It is the right thing to do for each of the services to step forward with what they can to assist them."
Frog
19 December 2002, 21:36
Bob Coates and I are classmates from NROTC at U of South Carolina. He went through 2nd phase (diving) at BUD/S. Keep in mind this is a proof of concept lash up, not a done deal.
JSOCMarine
19 December 2002, 21:41
Coates is a good man and has all the schools, skills and experience necessary to do well in this role. The fact that he has been put in charge shows me the Corps is serious about making this thing work. S/F
Marauder
20 December 2002, 13:59
Drawing from existing Marine specialties, the detachment will include 22 people in a headquarters element, 30 reconnaissance Marines, 28 intelligence operatives and a six-person team to provide firepower.
First, I'm hoping that PC "persons" bit is just that, some PC for the sake of being PC. Unless of course they intend for the tangos to laugh themselves to death at the sight of a WM trying to hold up an M240G or SAW.
Second, aren't MGs, GLs, and AT launcers an organic part of Recon units if the threat is expected? Why the need for extra firepower?
Last, 36 shooters doesn't seem to be too many to me for a whole unit. They will be more than capable of course, and I suppose being attached to SEALs will be what brings them up to manpower levels for this testing phase.
Of course, I'm just a dumbass private, so I will admit ignorance to the big picture.
Purple36
20 December 2002, 14:17
Unless of course they intend for the tangos to laugh themselves to death at the sight of a WM trying to hold up an M240G or SAW.
Not to get into the whole female/male combat thing.....this is slightly different from arguing about women in infantry and I'm not arguing for it.
Just for the sake of conversation......that would assume the M240G or SAW is one of the weapons...and....
I've known a few women who could've done so.. A female LT in my unit years ago, was 6'0", and regularly did PT runs with the LRS guys in our unit. (Think she married a Ranger CPT). Knew another female CPT triathalete (sp?) who had no problem holding her own.
Course, I recall when WM's had mandatory makeup classes....and regulation lipstick.....haha...too funny. You guys. If I recall right, they didn't qualify with weapons back in the 80's either.
But regardless, I doubt the shooters will include women. Ya'll don't have WM's in CI, so I can't imagine you'd have 'em as shooters.
ENGR-Tom
20 December 2002, 15:20
I believe from reading another article that the firepower team is really ANGLICO Marines that will be attached.
Bravo_One_Three
20 December 2002, 15:50
Originally posted by Marauder
Second, aren't MGs, GLs, and AT launcers an organic part of Recon units if the threat is expected? Why the need for extra firepower?
The "Extra Firepower" comes in the form of CAS, Arty and NGF. It's a 6 man team from the Air Naval Gunfire Liason Company... ANGLICO.
Marauder
20 December 2002, 16:32
Ahhhhh. So that's "Firepower" vice "firepower". Gotcha.
Lianluo, you'll have to understand that my experience of females in combat arms is coloured by my Basic and Infantry training courses. Up here in Canada, females are able to join the combat arms. Long story behind that, but suffice to say it really has nothing to do with warfighting ability as much as it had to do with socialist-driven social engineering. My experience included being told by my section commander to relieve, at different points in time, the two females in my section of the C9 (you would know it as a SAW) as they could not bear carrying it more than 500 meters. It was "too heavy" for them to carry any further than that. Unfortunately, they both passed to become "qualified" infanteers. All I know is that I would not trust them to complete a section attack with me, and I would not have been at all comfortable trusting my life with them on tha battlefield.
I will willingly concede that there are females such as the LT you metioned out there, but they are so rare as to preclude basing an argument for the inclusion of females into combat arms on them. Just my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.
Purple36
21 December 2002, 03:44
Hi Marauder.....that's why I prefaced it with..not being a women/infantry argument-just wanted to point that out.
Noone should be in a job they're not qualified for and our/your policies should make that clear...oh well.
Just curious, did the women you worked with want to be Infantry?
504PIR
21 December 2002, 12:14
Let see now, the Army has SFOD, SF, Rangers, 160th and a couple of other "if I talk about it,I'll have to kill you" units
The AF has CCT, PJs, Spec Ops weathermen, 20th SOS
The Navy has the Seals, Devgrp and SBS
Now the USMC has FR, SS and a elite Spec Ops unit (my ol FR buddies tell me all Marines are elite studs and they are)
When do the Coast Guard, Boy Scouts and the Hooter girls form a "Spec Op" unit?
Why does everybody keep reinventing the wheel,so they have their own group of shooters and looters? Everybody wants a piece of the pie. Of course it could be a plot by the computer gaming industry to sell another varation of the same shooter game too.
As much as I dislike alot of Hackworth he has a good idea in that there should be one service instead of 4 competing services.We should all concentrate on doing our own jobs and be the best damm Soldier, sailor, airman or marine that we can be!
Not trying to start a flame war, just my $.02
lifescout1987
21 December 2002, 19:50
Originally posted by 504PIR
Why does everybody keep reinventing the wheel,so they have their own group of shooters and looters? Everybody wants a piece of the pie. Of course it could be a plot by the computer gaming industry to sell another varation of the same shooter game too.
Well then why not make it eligible for all services to join specops units and cut the units from their respective services and have them be their own service. I mean since they should be concentrating on being the best that they can be then they should draw recruits from all services.
Not a flame, just a thought
---Jon
dsumner
23 December 2002, 17:44
Originally posted by 504PIR
When do the Coast Guard, Boy Scouts and the Hooter girls form a "Spec Op" unit?
Actually the Coast Guard used to have a unit called DIAT that did drug interdiction south of the border. From what I hear it was pretty squared away.
Fred
23 December 2002, 20:16
Originally posted by 504PIR
As much as I dislike alot of Hackworth he has a good idea in that there should be one service instead of 4 competing services.We should all concentrate on doing our own jobs and be the best damm Soldier, sailor, airman or marine that we can be!
Not trying to start a flame war, just my $.02
There has to be an element of competition/rivalry to keep a sharp edge. Without external competition and scrutiny it is too hard to become a been everywhere/done everything slap yourself on the back organization.
EchoFiveMike
23 December 2002, 23:11
It's easier to start some special unit to get the training, ammo and toys to do the job than it is to train the regular forces up to speed. They have been used as dumping ground for PC crap for too long. Besides, which would you rather sell to Congress? New HSLD super grunts that we can't tell you about? Or sustainment training for 1st Infantry Bn that's been around since 1776? S/F...Ken M
ActionJackson03
24 December 2002, 21:55
Actually I'm finishing up a term paper right now based on the argument for the creation of a fifth branch dedicated to SOF. Let's keep this debate going, I could use some extra points to throw into the paper.:D
Just read an article in the June Soldier of Fortune where they feature a story on the new unit.While the article didnt really state anything that we on these boards didnt already know,I was put off a little bit by a couple of the quotes attributed to CSM Eric Haney(Delta Force,shhh be very very quiet LOL).It also said CSM Haney recently authored a book about his experiences with the unit.What book?Anyone else read this article? If not I can type out his quotes.There is also a picture of the units new logo and the new gold dive bubble is shown,kinda cool.
We don't get many US magazines down this way. If you could put the quotes in, it would be great. Are you saying the book was about the new unit or for when he was with "the guys behind the fence"? It'd be pretty early to get out enough info on these new guys to write a book, right?
I'm with Xdeth on some of his comments on this (although the following is not an attempt to place MY words in his computer). The other guys (read SOCOM) aren't going to take this kindly and I don't see everyone playing nice-nice. The Corps missed this one along time ago. That's OK. Focus on what they do, and do it better than anyone else, even if that means they aren't ever considered SOCOM. There is every bit of room and logic to the Corps having their own capabilities. They bring the whole package to the fight and although small, it has a lot of things going for it (close air, amphib/air transport, supply, armor, shooters, etc.).
I've said this before. If I were God for 4 years, I'd cut the Corps down 30-40 percent, keep the same budget, train infantry companies up to Ranger Batt standards (oooh, I hear the flamethrowers arming up as I type) and give them the best equipment out there. In the 21st century there is NO reason that the standard Marine Corps fire-team is not the most well-trained and best-equipped combat unit on the face of the earth. I would say the Marines should focus on being able to do the small battles in support of the larger picture. While I was as motivated as anyone else to see the Marines pulling down the statue in Bhagdad, I think the Marines don't really need to conquer large amounts of terrain to justify their mission. The Army is already set up to grab and hold large amounts of terrain.
As to the "bubble", I haven't seen one up close, but it does look kinda cool from the photos. If you shined all the coating off your SCUBA bubble (the silver one), it would look "gold" also. And vice versa with shining all of the gold off your wings......
If I don't answer right away, its because I am digging out enough asbestos from our attic area to cover my computer room......
Well the way it was worded made it seem like he was with the Marine unit like as an observer,but I guess it was his experiences with SFOD-D so the book I assume would be Inside Delta Force(I have not read it).As for the quotes Haney "warned that SpecOps Marines would have to shed some of their "Marine-ness" to fit in with their commando counter parts.Special operators are free thinkers ,quiet professionals who dont shout slogans and often question authority.Marines can tend to be a bit single-minded and a little too gung-ho,especially in the lower ranks."also he stated "there are some real cultural differences,the Marines are going to have to bring all their military attributes to bear but shrug off all their baggage".While I personally would never state anything about any other Branch I guess I just took it a little personal being a Marine and all and Haney being an outsider looking in. Now young boots out of Bootcamp or SOI maybe.Ohh Rah and SEMPER FI devil dogs.LOL
Rock,
I take it you are current. Is this SOCOM thing a new unit within the Corps or is it a infusion of the Corps into the SOCOM Family?
Please excuse this old retired brothers ignorance on this. Can you tell me what's up.
Special operators are free thinkers ,quiet professionals who dont shout slogans and often question authority.
I've found that to be true except for the "questioning authority" part. I think anyone (including Marines) who sees something stupid or dangerous will offer an argument or other option. But in my time around Navy/Army/Air Force spec ops, I saw they frowned as much as anyone else if someone was just "mouthing off". But I have also seen where people questioned authority tooooooo much (including Marines). Its not a democracy out there. Someone has to eventually make a decision. I'd like to think that if it were necessary to consistently question someone's authority (my comment implies that the people questioning are right), perhaps that person being questioned is the wrong guy for the job.
Where Haney would be right to question the Corps' success in this venture would be as to whether the Marines were serious about this or not. How many times in the past 20 years has the Corps stood up and down Force Recon? I think it gets much worse if you go back another 10 years.
When I left the company in 87, the groundwork had been laid to make those guys some of the best AND most experienced around. We stood up 2 more FR companies as well as SOTG (although I think SOTG went the wrong way due to internal Corps politics). 10 years later, they were finding ways to stand the companies down.
Now we want to play for real. And varsity too, not JV. You CANNOT throw money at spec ops and expect it to work. You have to give it time to build and learn from its mistakes (and yes there will be mistakes). The Marine Corps is going into this a dollar short and 15 years too late. I hope the other guys (the current SOCOM) don't eat them for lunch as they come to the table and that the Corps doesn't lose interest and let the whole thing die on the vine.
Finger,
Not as current as Id like to be,been out 10 yrs now,hope my info is correct but the Corps has established an 86 man team to join USSOCOM,they should begin forming next month(if they havent already )at Pendleton then join up with the SEALs in Coronado for more in depth training.They should be ready to deploy by April 2004 under USSOCOM.If this is not correct someone please correct me.
southoftheborder,
Were you with 1st Force Recon Co. in 86-87.If so did you know Cpl/SGT Rich Law.He was my best friend,we went to ITS and ARC together, I was 0351 honor man in ITS he was honor man at ARC, he left 3rd DRP to go to 1st Force in I believe late 86 early 87(a little foggy on that one).In 88 was diagnosed with Leukemia and then lost contact after I visited him at Balboa hospital in 88.The Company promoted him to Sgt in the hospital before he got out on a medical.He was just an incredibly cool dude and a great Marine.Sure wish I could find him now,he was in remission so I believe he is still with us God willing.
Morris,Vasquez and Nail were in 1st Force at that time also, 3 very good Marines well except when Nail shot himself in the knee with a .45 on a quick draw drill.I wasnt part of that unit but we all became friends on operations in the Gulf during the Iran Iraq war.
Sorry to hear about your friend. Hope he is OK.
No, I was at 2d FR from 83-87. In November of 87 I took a teaching slot at Bragg. From the dates in your post I was probably already down here in Mexico when you left the Corps.
We (older gen) had some pretty good trg and waaaaay too much fun, but I always thought you guys that followed us were going to be light-years ahead of what we were doing (I was in the 4th DA platoon in FR to stand up and float). I agreed with standardizing things versus the way we were doing it at the beginning (each platoon basically was doing what it wanted to. Ex. 3rd Platoon went LA style on the trg, we (4th) went FBI HRTand Army style, 5th a whole different idea from the other two, etc.) SOTG could have been a great concept, but it wound up just reducing to internal in-fighting.
Seems like the Corps couldn't quite find the energy or ability to make the whole thing work. Shame, as I really think they had the right idea for awhile there. I'm very interested in seeing if this group survives the initial wading into the waters. SOCOM has been around for awhile and actually know their business well. It would behoove the Corps to think clearly as they make each step from this point on. Otherwise, in about 18-24 months you'll have 86 well-trained dudes returned to the Corps, most probably not too happy about it.
.Marines can tend to be a bit single-minded and a little too gung-ho,especially in the lower ranks."also he stated "there are some real cultural differences,the Marines are going to have to bring all their military attributes to bear but shrug off all their baggage"
Translation:
Marines can't expect to be in charge of everything, they must abide within the SOP's, command structrure, mission responsibilites etc etc.. as defined. We only want to see E-6 and above from the Corps if possible. The uniforms, haircuts, and adherence to doing things too conventionally have got to go.
That's no fault of his, the Army/Navy views are such, were when I was in, are now. It just comes from the real lack of contact over the years and the usual rivalries, no big deal. I don't recall any platoon fitting those descriptions except maybe the rank structure E-5's mostly,and that has changed somewhat recently.
SF Trainee
4 May 2003, 23:39
As it stands today, SOCOM is completely capable of carrying out the various missions assigned to it without the addition of another service. In my opinion, money and resources should be spent towards increasing the assets in 160th SOAR so that SMUs are not the only one's in the SOF guaranteed the support of those fine aviators, expanding the purchase of Advanced SEAL Delivery Systems (ASDS) mini-sub, and the development of better, and lighter communications equipment ... for the guys already in SOCOM.
The real question is: What NEED is this Marine unit going to fill that is not already being catered to by the shooters presently in SOCOM?
It sounds to me like "high level" brass manuevering to get their "dogs in the fight". Especially since SOF has come to the forefront as the "weapon of choice". I remember not too long ago when I was often told by Marine counterparts about how the USMC didn't need to be a part of SOCOM since every Marine could be considered just as good as a SOF soldier, sailor, or airman; especially the folks over in the MEU SOCs. I guess with the current awareness of the increadible capabilities of the SOF, some party lines are being re-written.
What your saying is largely rhetoric, I'm not sure where you heard most of it but I can tell it's not motivated by the current realities in the GWOT. It sounds like something that the politicians in the services looking at their balance sheets would say.
As far as the capabilites MEUSOC, MEFSOC, whatever, it is setup to operate as an Expeditionary Force, you can likely figure out that includes SOF type missions also, has nothing to do with EVERY Marine being one thing or another.
Xdeth,
Thanx for the translation.I guess I just took a little exception to the statement of shouting out witty slogans making Marines seem unprofessional,I for one never heard any Marine shouting out Teufel Heunden or barking ooh-rah while out in the field.Maybe a little in garrison but hell we do take pride in being Marines.Take care
Just some randon thoughts on why the USMC should field a "SOCOM" unit.
I am not a SOF type so dont jump on my shit if I'm a little askew here. Just throwing out some thoughts...
1. Force recon has a primary mission that is not direct action related. Hence the name FOrce "RECON". If they concentrate on the DA shit they suffer in thier primary Deep Recon missions.
2. Funding. The DA stuff is expensive to train and equip for. By becoming part of SOCOM they will probably be funded from SOCOM funds instead of out of O&M money intended for support of conventional operations. Just a guess here.
3. Why does the USMC need to be in SOCOM? WHen you have a MEU floating around the Med or where ever they are forward deployed for contingencies. When I was doing the CQB thing our mentor from Delta always thought that we should have a group since we often sitting around on ships waiting for a fight anyway.
Why not plus up the SEALS?? Wellllll in my mind its the same deal as above with the Force Recon bubbas. I think that except for the big team, SEALS also have other missions that they need to be prepared for other than DA stuff.
Every SOF has its unique specialties. SF is primarily training indig types, SEALS support amphibious operations, Force Racoon provides deep recon, Rangers do everything hard. So now in the new world we need lots of dedicated DA types so we have Delta, Dev Grp and now the Marines have a bunch.
Army is ground, AF is Air, Navy is Water and Marines do it all!! (Sorry it slipped!)
I hope the USMC bunch avoids the SEAL mission and focuses on Amphibious raids.
WTF. Okay. Be nice.....Like I said, random thoughts...
What your saying is largely rhetoric
Xdeth, I think this is pretty much the attitude that those guys can expect for the near/medium future. And I don't think it will be limited to just "trainees", either.
Rough row to hoe for the next couple of years.
I hope the USMC bunch avoids the SEAL mission and focuses on Amphibious raids.
Thats a thought! Seriously, the options right now are what? Come in and stand up an extension of a SEAL unit? I hope not. You'll just have rivalry generated and distrust as to whether the Marines are trying to steal jobs from the SEALS. Another DA group? Why? UNLESS they were assigned to support the MEUSOCs.
I think the DA option makes sense IF they can somehow form a part of the projected force of the MEU. I really think there is plenty of room on the MEUSOC for a long-range reconnaissance element as well as a DA force. Whether those guys are on the ships, are prepositioned in the theater, etc., but in support of the MEUSOCs as Marines will have the natural advantage of knowing how to support the MEUSOC COs mission. And working with the other elements of the MEU will be dramatically easier for a Marine unit.
I don't agree with there being "no need for a Marine unit in SOCOM", but I do honestly hope that the Marines focus on our niche and develop something that is respected by all as not only relevant to SOCOM needs but expertly filled by Marines.
For some of you older Marines out there. The marines going to SOCCOM is for the most part on paper. There has been a lot of cross training between the Services for a few yrs now.
As Xdeth said it is more about who is in charge than anything else.
relaxed grooming standards, free thinking, being on you own... Everyday MEFSOC/ MEUSOC stuff... Just there won't be a Marine in Charge of the whole UNIT.
Tracy had a pretty good IDEA on how it woulb work.... I don't know if it is still posted I'll look and let you know.
RAT OUT!!!
relaxed grooming standards, free thinking, being on you own... Everyday MEFSOC/ MEUSOC stuff...
True when I was there as well. Nothing new there......
I noticed some concerns about what the new units missions would be and/or if they would just be an extension of other SOF units missions.The detachment will be trained to conduct special recon missions as well as "direct action" rapid strikes to seize,recover or destroy designated personnel or material.also the unit will conduct long-term foreign internal defense missions to help governments free and protect its society from subversion,lawlessness and insurgency.As well as conduct short term missions to help friendly government forces carry out specific contingency operations to hunt down terrorists or eliminate training camps.But what I really want to know is do the get to sport their favorite teams ball caps and wear beards like the ODA's. LOL.
SF Trainee
5 May 2003, 17:33
Originally posted by Xdeth
What your saying is largely rhetoric, I'm not sure where you heard most of it but I can tell it's not motivated by the current realities in the GWOT. It sounds like something that the politicians in the services looking at their balance sheets would say.
Well, I'm not one to be much into the "politics", but I'm confident I can formulate original thoughts without having to have "heard" them elsewhere.
But, when in joint training assignments with folks from other services, I'd typically run into at least one, or two Recon Marines and I would ask the question: How come you guys are not in SOCOM? The response was usually well thought-out and seemed to make sense to me at the time. They wanted "to maintain that capability close" to the Corps, where it was responsive to the commander's intelligence requirements. Essentially, I was told, except for the budget that would surely benefit them, the Marines really had no need to be in SOCOM. Well, it seems now that SOCOM has found a need to have Force Recon Marines. I wonder if that need just arose recently? I doubt it. Perhaps, introducing the very qualified Recon Marines in the organization was more cost-effective than increasing the SEALs force-construct to fill a manning void.
A SEAL representative (Senior CPO), who works down here, spoke to a few of us regarding current mission capabilities of NSW and he pretty much covered the whole standard, DA, SR, UW ... so on and so forth. I wonder what the Marines will cover down on? You're guess is as good as mine. I'll be interesting to see.
As for the "cultural" changes that a Recon Marine must enact to be an effective part of the SOCOM family, I disagree. I think, that in spite of the usual service induced quirks that we all foster, a professional is a professional. I have found Recon Marines to be no less adaptable than any other folks I've worked with in the past. Nevertheless, if the quote did indeed come from SMG Haney, I must admit that his military perspective is much more seasoned than 90% of us on this board.
I'm not debating whether, or not, they have a right to be in the organization. Lord knows those fellas have earned their place there, or anywhere else.
Anyway, I'll get off the soap box. That's what you get when you give E-6s a degree and spell check.
the unit will conduct long-term foreign internal defense missions to help governments free and protect its society from subversion,lawlessness and insurgency
Uh-oh. Isn't there somebody else that already does that?
And screw the ball caps. Real men use Panama Jack hats and neon Hawaiian shirts. I saw it on TV.
It doesn't matter which branch you try to ramp up for current tempo, getting 6-15 years of experience in your ranks takes, 6-15 years.
EXACTLY.
Here's to checking back in a decade and seeing if they pulled it off. I have no doubt as to the ability of the Marines assigned to the unit, its the follow-thru of those who will make decisions and policy that I wonder about.
I have no doubt as to the ability of the Marines assigned to the unit, its the follow-thru of those who will make decisions and policy that I wonder about.
EXACTLY :)
You know even if we are used as a force multiplier by doing some of the same types of missions as the other SOF units, so what this is a global war on terrorism isnt it? And its a big world out there with a lot of enemies that want to do us harm.
My comments aren't so much that Marines cannot do the other's missions, or whether there is enough badguys out there to have enough to go around for all. FWIW, I really hope that this is successful, both for the Corps (warfighting is a'changin) and for those Marines who will have the opportunity to grow.
However, it would be naive to believe that the different services don't bitterly defend what they interpret as their "turf", as they see it directly tied into their budget. Although this new war on terrorism has given a great deal of work to everyone, how much of a budget increase did ALL of SOCOM get? I'm not talking about SFOD, 160, SEAL 6, etc. There are a lot of players within SOCOM, i.e. ODA Team Sgts are going to have quite a few questions as to why they aren't budgeted more money for training and personnel if they see a Marine unit come in and start to be tasked with FID missions. I remember when there were complaints about us taking slots to schools like MFF. I think half the guys in my MFF Jumpmaster class were not even SF.
SOCOM units have been doing this for a long time and have gotten the experience that will take the Corps many years to obtain. If the decision is for the Corps to enter into the SOCOM arena, then I only hope that it is to accomplish a mission that is not currently being done or relieve another unit of the responsabilities of a mission and allow them to better focus on something else.
I sincerely believe that if the idea is to just stand up another DA force, well......., we should all remember what happened the last time that was tried. If the idea is to be "another" SEAL team or an SF Charlie Company, then I think those SOCOM units will quietly kill the proposal -- and I can't really think of a reason why they shouldn't.
Still rooting for the idea that these guys are going to be focused on the amphib mission and supporting the forward deployed Naval and Marine forces out in the different AOs.......
Maybe DOD is just facing the fact that they have been using Force Recon guys in SOCOM missions without FOrce being a SOCOM asset.
Again, I am out of the loop, but I seem to remember that during the mid 80's that for a time 2nd Force was made a "National Asset". THey were training with NY FBI guys in CQB and other sexy shit, they went relaxed grooming etc.
I really think that Marine "recon" units should concentrate on their "recon" mission and this new "SOCOM" asset should do the majority of the DA stuff, kind of like an SBS or Marine Raider unit (like we had in WWII).
As much as many Army and Navy types will argue, Marines have a unique personna as do SF, SEAL, Ragnars etc. Having a Marine team will only enhance our SOF capabilities through friendly competition.
Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.
Just an old grunt....
southoftheborder,
Points well taken,I like the way you think.Take care.
sta marine
6 May 2003, 03:41
I wasn't a force guy so I might be wrong here. And I'm sure I will be corrected if I am. But didn't SOCOM ask the commandant for his force recon assets years ago? And wasn't it the Corps that said no? The commandant didn't want to lose control lof his marines or so thats what I heard.
But didn't SOCOM ask the commandant for his force recon assets years ago? And wasn't it the Corps that said no? The commandant didn't want to lose control lof his marines or so thats what I heard.
Sort of like that. Basically the Marine Corps didn't/doesn't like losing control of an asset and not having that asset available when they go to war. Kinda like loaning one of your best lures to a buddy and when YOU decide to go fishing, he says he needs the lure too much to give it back. Yes, you can still catch fish, but it might not go as easily as you had hoped.
but I seem to remember that during the mid 80's that for a time 2nd Force was made a "National Asset". THey were training with NY FBI guys in CQB and other sexy shit, they went relaxed grooming etc
Yup. And notice it was shot down almost as quickly as it got started up. Do you need another strictly DA force? Really? I won't go into the many units that are already set up and tasked for this, but I think the US military has those bases pretty much covered. UNLESS you mean in support of the amphib mission or a MEU/MEF, etc. I am in total agreement with THAT concept.
Gooch, I concur with your earlier posts. If you are really going to get good at the DA side of the house, then it will probably take away from your recon abilities. Its just too taxing to play at both. I could certainly see rotating back and forth (3 years DA, 3 years Recon, etc.)
All of this is moot, though. The path has been set and the wheels are in motion. If this has been thought out well and past mistakes were learned from, both SOCOM and the Marine Corps will obtain many benefits. If not, then in a couple of years there will be a large group of well trained Marines ready to head to the drill field or recruiting duty or some other "well rounding" duty assignment...........
Attila175
6 May 2003, 11:19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.Marines can tend to be a bit single-minded and a little too gung-ho,especially in the lower ranks."also he stated "there are some real cultural differences,the Marines are going to have to bring all their military attributes to bear but shrug off all their baggage"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Haney seems to have forgotten his time in Ranger Bn. Ranger Bns are part of soccom and do not have relaxed grooming standards and are very gung ho. I think Haney is thinking of the regular Corps units and has not been around Recon. I was not in recon but knew several guys and I think they have no problem thinked outside the box, doing things in an unconventional manner or tactfully challanging seniors when needed(especially those outside their own chain of command). I have a friend going to the new unit and I believe they will be another tool in USSOCCOMs arsenal.
Attila175
6 May 2003, 11:55
I think that at the time the Corps made the decision not to join USSOCOM, it was correct for the situation then. In Vietnam as well as WWII and Korea, the Corps had seen it's aviation assets used by theatre commanders for missions other than CAS of Marines. When the Marines then requested air support, it was not available. The Corps did not want to lose more assets.
Also the geopolitical landscape at the time would not lent itself to the types of operations the U.S. is now conducting. We were preparing to fight a large war in Europe with conventional forces, not several small conflicts with an emphasis on special operations.
So what type of training will this new Marine SOCOM unit be participating in with the SEALS?
So what type of training will this new Marine SOCOM unit be participating in with the SEALS?
Dude! Are you serious?
(Out of respect for SEALs on this board, I edited out my half-ass comments like CQCB-Close Qtrs Cock Blocking which SEALs I have worked with took great pleasure in showing their knowledge and abilities. That shit ain't funny when there are only 3 good-looking gals in the bar and you are only 30 minutes to closing time.)
Not asking for any specifics.
The Reconnaisance,intelligence and fire support units from the Corps will begin a 24 week special warfare training program with the SEALs at NAB Coronado then when the training phase is completed they will be under the formal control of the Navy Commander for Special Warfare.But this will be done only after the initial phase at Pendleton is finished.
dvldgindia
7 May 2003, 23:09
I'm not sure about this but I think I read that ANGLICO was also suppose to be part of this "new SOCOM unit." Anybody know if there is any truth behind this. Semper Fi!
reconhawaii
8 May 2003, 04:58
Where are the Marines for this unit being pulled from?
My problem with the Corps and special ops is that the Marine Corps feels the entire Corps is a special ops unit. That was the reason why the Commandant didn't recognize Marines going to a seperate Special Ops Force.(personal opinion from an article I read) It was only recently that the corps recognized Recon as a primary M.O.S. I take that a little personal because myself and a good number of trained, skilled and experienced operators had to Lat move into the infantry and supply because of number crunching and the lack of a Special ops primary MOS.
These 80 something Marines must have come from some unit right? Did they grab 86 Grunts and say, "we're going to make you all into special ops guys" If you grabbed 80 guys out of Force or Battalion they would be under their t/o strength.
I remember being at jump school and 90 something L.A.R. guys went through Jump School. Probably to never jump again especially with their L.A.V. but because they added Recon to their unit name they rated quotas.
I feel Marine Special ops should be in support of Marine operations. Keep the pool that makes the grade IN the special ops community. Keep the Money and resources for special ops seperate from the general fund and retain senior experienced operators, create a training pool to grab from and bring the corps into the 21st century with out fear of losing traditions...
Thanks, I had to vent my frustrations on Having been forced to LAt move to supply.
Invisible J
8 May 2003, 10:02
Originally posted by reconhawaii
Thanks, I had to vent my frustrations on Having been forced to LAt move to supply.
Brother, vent all you want. I wasn't Recon, but alot of us 8541's wound up in the same boat as you gents when it came to re-up, myself included. And I must admit, I'm still a bit bummed about it too.
Andy0331
8 May 2003, 10:22
Originally posted by dvldgindia
I'm not sure about this but I think I read that ANGLICO was also suppose to be part of this "new SOCOM unit." Anybody know if there is any truth behind this. Semper Fi!
There will be Marines coming from ANGLICO (1-2 teams?). It's my understanding that they are pulling seasoned Marines primarily from Force, but also ANGLICO and Counterintell as well to "round out" the unit. I believe that it is coming under the command of Lt. Col Coates (full bird now?) who did his last tour as CO of 1st Force.
Attila175
8 May 2003, 10:24
They will probably pull some of these guys out of B billets. There are 0321s that are on the drill field, recruiting, etc. That way they wont draw to much away from the existing units.
I was at LAI when they changed to LAR. We didn't like the change either.
If they keep the unit to support only Marine operations, they will not get to US SOCCOM missions, funding or support. The Corps has seen units that are part of US SOCCOM get the missions while the Corps has sat on the sidelines. Now it realizes the changes taking place and wants a piece of the pie.
There will be a 6 man supporting arms liaison detachment that will be made up of Anglico Marines,radio operators artillery & FAC specialists.The Recon element will be made up of four 6 man teams headed by senior enlisted personnel.If 10 men are taken out to the SOCOM unit the vacancies will be filled by at least 6 to replace them.There will be a 26 man intelligence platoon consisting of a signals intel support team a human exploitation team and an all source fusion team.
Sneaky SF Dude
8 May 2003, 16:44
SOCOM is implementing my Dude concept!
Okay okay okay!
WTF are they calling this organization?
Doctor Evil voice, "We will call it Force Recon Detachment..."D"...?"
Out here
reconhawaii
9 May 2003, 05:54
It sounds more like Delta Force Recon...
I guess I can understand the US SOCOM Funding and Mission availability status. It's looking more like the Marines are throwing in a stacked team to play in the special ops world. It is actually long overdue and I hope the Leadership will be able to let this unit run itself the way other special ops units are able to.
Dictating their training needs, funds for training, screening for mature and proffessional persons will be important for this unit. Not to mention a perpetual training force to staff these positions when need be. Anyway, this is just my three cents.
I want to bitch about somethingelse that has bothered me. When I was first going to HALO, I had orders to report and I went down to S-! to pick up my plane tickets to leave the next day. While I'm standing at the desk with tickets just habded to me IN MY HANDS, the S-3 cheif comes in and says, "all training quotas have been cancelled." They had pulled my already allocated tickets and quota for HALO and said that we have to send this back to G-3. How's that for good ole Marine Corps training...
Vent out.
That fvckin absolutely sucks, I know what you are talking about, sometimes you can't win with some of the Mickey Mouse bullsh!t that sometimes happens in the Corps.
Bravo_One_Three
9 May 2003, 12:39
Sounds like the Corps being the Corps ReconHawaii. I can't tell you how many times crap like that happened to me or someone I was sending somewhere. It happened to me personally at least 3 times... including for my re-enlistment quota for Jump School! I re-enlisted for it and they STILL cancelled it.
were you able to eventually go to HALO school?You know I hear about this kind of thing happening in the Corps alot like Bravo 1 3 said.Does this kinda shit happen in the other branches and we just dont hear about it or for some reason does it happen in the Marines more often?Reconhawaii did you request to go to supply when you rotated out of Recon(as opposed to the Infantry)or was that where there was an open slot.Jeez from high speed to supply did that just totally suck or did you like it?
I hear you as well. And to get screwed on a re-enlistment deal is really evil.
There are probably decent reasons for what the Corps has to do, especially if the decisions are last minute, but I really think there isn't enough effort on getting info out to the troops as to some of the "whys". Life isn't fair and everyone knows the real world sucks, but there is still the truth that a man will do his job better if he is happy about doing it.
It not always necessary to treat people like mushrooms......
Bravo_One_Three
9 May 2003, 14:11
SouthoftheBorder,
I don't consider myself an "Old Salt", but I have been around the block in the Marine Corps and know one thing for damn sure... the more things change, the more they stay the same.
If anyone doubts that, I suggest reading the "Side Out" series of books by Gene Duncan, USMC (Ret). These were writen close to 35 years ago, and the experiences still hold true today.
"Green Side Out"
"Brown Side Out"
"Run in Circles"
"Scream and Shout"
They are great books that show that Marines have always been what we would recognize as "Marines", and the daily aspects of life as a Marine really haven't changed a lot since the Battle of Cuzco Well.
I remember those books. I had at least two of them for awhile. Pretty damn funny and certainly true as hell. I agree, the more things change, the more they remain the same.
mikemac64
12 May 2003, 22:34
Originally posted by SGTROCK
Xdeth,
I guess I just took a little exception to the statement of shouting out witty slogans making Marines seem unprofessional,I for one never heard any Marine shouting out Teufel Heunden or barking ooh-rah while out in the field.Maybe a little in garrison but hell we do take pride in being Marines.Take care
I spent 4 years in the Corps (83-87), and I never heard one of my Marines say anything witty....lol
GracieLou
13 May 2003, 13:41
EDIT....
GracieLou
13 May 2003, 13:47
Originally posted by reconhawaii
It sounds more like Delta Force Recon...
I guess I can understand the US SOCOM Funding and Mission availability status. It's looking more like the Marines are throwing in a stacked team to play in the special ops world. It is actually long overdue and I hope the Leadership will be able to let this unit run itself the way other special ops units are able to.
That is what it sounds like to me...from some of the names that I have heard that are going there
Dictating their training needs, funds for training, screening for mature and proffessional persons will be important for this unit. Not to mention a perpetual training force to staff these positions when need be. Anyway, this is just my three cents.
True again, there are some good folks headed there and it should be interesting!
I want to bitch about somethingelse that has bothered me. When I was first going to HALO, I had orders to report and I went down to S-! to pick up my plane tickets to leave the next day. While I'm standing at the desk with tickets just habded to me IN MY HANDS, the S-3 cheif comes in and says, "all training quotas have been cancelled." They had pulled my already allocated tickets and quota for HALO and said that we have to send this back to G-3. How's that for good ole Marine Corps training...
Vent out.
Sounds like the same thing that happened to Graham the first time he tried to go to HALO school--although he lost his slot to someone who eventually failed the course...
Gracie
GracieLou
13 May 2003, 13:49
Originally posted by SGTROCK
Jeez from high speed to supply did that just totally suck or did you like it?
I can answer that as I had to work with him........HE HATED IT AND WAS A MISERABLE PUPPY!
Hehe...would have given me nightmares to work with him IF I had not already been married to someone like him...he sure gave higher (MAD MAX) fits!
Gracie
Sneaky SF Dude
13 May 2003, 16:05
Originally posted by GracieLou
Sounds like the same thing that happened to Graham the first time he tried to go to HALO school--although he lost his slot to someone who eventually failed the course...
Gracie
How can you fail HALO school? When I went, the only way not to pass was to not pull.
GracieLou
13 May 2003, 17:17
Let me rephrase it....this individual had some other issues throughout the course and just didn't make it...
I guess "failing" was a bad use of words perhaps...
Gracie
SGTROCK
13 May 2003, 19:22
Thanks Gracielou,They would have had to put me in Correctional Custody before I went to Supply,but thats just me.LOL.
Sneaky SF Dude,"The only way not to pass was to not pull",you really have a way with words thats makes me laugh but that my friend made me laugh so hard my boss thought I was hurt.Thanx I needed that!!!
Sneaky SF Dude
13 May 2003, 19:28
I wasn't trying to be funny, it's actually true. I heard now they drop for landing with the wind, not lowering rucksacks, whatever. When I went through, they figured the best punishment was the pain you received as a result of your mistake. One of my jumps, I was fumble fing around with lowering the ruck and ran out of ideas and altitude at the same time. I landed with the ruck HARD! and the frame tore all the skin off both my shins. Hobu comes over and sees me rubbing my legs like a little kid and the blood and all and he counsels me "Bet 'cha don't do that shit again, huh dumbass?" "Get your gear and let's go again." Great school.
reconhawaii
14 May 2003, 01:15
Hi guys and Gals,
I've been negotiating contracts for the last couple of days but it's good to be back.
Well Rock, I didn't get another quota to HALO but I did make the suggestion that static jumpers should be rigged with square shoots. Then they don't have to all go to HALO with the limited budget of the Marine Corps but just a transition course would do. It would also help our Recon teams to be able to land with accuracy. In fact, I made that suggestion with Sledge, Peavy and then Captain Flores present. It was sometime later that I heard they started doing that at force. Hopeully my little contribution.
Also, My choices doing re-enlistment was go to supply or get out. Literally. No other quotas in 93 to re-enlist for.
Wifes here, gotta go.
Eric Knies
16 May 2003, 01:44
Greetings brothers ,
just giving another sit rep for are annual reunion we've been doing as well over the b-day, were still headed to new orleans for the month of november.. and as per were staying in the french quarter so far i think theres 6 of us committed anyones welcome to show ...
Scotty Wong brother how the hell are ya!!!!!
Knies out
Big Daddy,
Happy B-Lated B-day. I am all for the New Orleans trip. is Ropp sending out the e-mails again? If Hill and Dirty Steve go I can not miss this.
Ran into Dirty Steve Brooks in South Teaxs a few Yrs ago we had a blast got into to little trouble. Normal stuff.
Hope all is well.
SEMPER FI.
John A.
Eric Knies
16 May 2003, 21:50
hey brother
thanks for the happy b-day,, fuck im getting old just hit 34, christ i teach entry tactics to our riot control teams for the dept of corrections here in minnesota, fuck i ran 3 miles last week in like 30 fucking minutes felt like there was a ruck on my back the whole way.. i about fricking died i gotta drop some lbs...
anyways actually kevin brewer is running the logistics for this yrs trip considering he wa awol for the costa rica trip .. anyways if ya want give him a call, heres my email--- tcschmoo@pro-ns.net
email me and i'll give ya his phone number that way some wanna be surfing the site dont get it
knies out!!!!
wannabe
24 June 2003, 21:35
I'm sorry, but y'all are missing the most important thing here;
I'm a 12 year old whose sean all of the USA NAvy SeaLS movies. I like bath timeand can hold my breath for a rilly, realy long time and even though I have thick glasses and lifting a twinkie causes me to pass ouit from exhaustion I know that I could kick ass 'cause I'D NEVER, EVER, EVER QUIT and I just want to know so that I can sign up and show them how to do things RITE;
Whose beter, Marine Force Recon, US NAvy Seals, or these new guys?
:)
Matt
RipperTOW
18 July 2003, 11:38
Anyone know where they're recruiting these marines from? I would think taking 90 of the best hard-chargers from FR and/or the recon batts would leave those units in something of a lurch. Are they taking marines from the line co's, ANGLICO, even - forbid - the air wing;) ?
Finger
18 July 2003, 11:43
Last thing I heard is they are taking Staff Sergeants and Capts and up. probably to be more on line with the SF ranks. This should not kill the companies too bad, if that's the case. In fact for awhile it might make some room in them.
I'm not positive on this. Can someone verify or correct?
RipperTOW
18 July 2003, 12:41
I read in a recent article that the recon section will be 4 teams of 6 marines each headed by a SSgt. Reading it again it sounds like there is going to be a large intelligence section, which I would guess would be officer heavy.
I'm sure these marines will make a good account of themselves with the other SOCOM units, but I hope HQMC has carved out a niche for them and is willing to support 'em over time. In all the available reading I've found, I'm still not at all clear what they're going to be doing that isn't already being done.
Sneaky SF Dude
18 July 2003, 14:33
Originally posted by Finger
Last thing I heard is they are taking Staff Sergeants and Capts and up. probably to be more on line with the SF ranks. This should not kill the companies too bad, if that's the case. In fact for awhile it might make some room in them.
I'm not positive on this. Can someone verify or correct?
Doesn't it take like 100 years time in grade to make Staff Sergeant or Captain in the Marines?
Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Doesn't it take like 100 years time in grade to make Staff Sergeant or Captain in the Marines?
When I went to Bragg as an instructor I thought that my movement through the ranks was "OK" and that I was probably not that far behind my counterparts in other services.
Then I met the Army guys on our committee who introduced me to the idea of "7 in 7". Man, was that a wakeup call.....
Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Doesn't it take like 100 years time in grade to make Staff Sergeant or Captain in the Marines?
LOL
When I was in 0331 was a closed MOS. Not a lot I could do to change it. I was an E-3 damn near 4yrs(Had to get a lot of waivers for schools that only allowed NCO's) Funny stories. Going to check into a school command as an E-3. The SSgt, SFC, Gunny who ever would look at me or other E-3's from the Corps and their we would be with a letter from CMC to allow us in to the school. We would sit there for till who ever was in charge at the time and wait for the go ahead....
Cpl 6 months them Frocked Sgt. The Corps held Sgt over my head for re-enlistment. I got out now all my Marines who were in my PLT are now SGTS and GUNNY's. A few of my peers are 1st Sgt's or Master Sgts. Guys making rank in 13 yrs. Good for them.
Talk about how times change.
RAT OUT!!!
Originally posted by RipperTOW
Anyone know where they're recruiting these marines from? I would think taking 90 of the best hard-chargers from FR and/or the recon batts would leave those units in something of a lurch. Are they taking marines from the line co's, ANGLICO, even - forbid - the air wing;) ?
Ripper as for TO&E. I would rather take this to PM.
RAT OUT!!!
Finger
18 July 2003, 15:23
I made Sgt under 3, but guys were checking out quick back then. made Staff Sergeant 4 years later after war but still in 7 years. Corps has always been war and MOS dependent for promotions.
RipperTOW
18 July 2003, 15:27
Roger on the TO&E, Rat. Just looking for any info that may have been made public that I have been unable to find.
One of the marines in prior-service recruiting here in Houston told me they'd done a big spread on det-1 in Marine Corps Times where they discussed the units they would draw from, but then he couldn't remember what they said. I haven't been able to find the article.
So to clarify, I'm only asking about info that's been published. I fully understand the OPSEC concerns about non-public DOD info on the internet. Apologies if it sounded otherwise in my first post.
Originally posted by Finger
I made Sgt under 3, but guys were checking out quick back then. made Staff Sergeant 4 years later after war but still in 7 years. Corps has always been war and MOS dependent for promotions.
Sounds like a SUCK DICK to me :D
Just Kidding..
That is awesome.
RAT OUT!!!
Ripper PM Inbound.
RAT OUT!!!
Echo-8-Hotel
18 July 2003, 15:35
The Sgt to SSgt selection board that will be convening next month:
Jr date of rank for the Promotion Zone for the 0321 field: 19990801 that would mean you have to have four years time in grade as a Sgt to be conisdered for selection to SSgt. in teh Recon MOS. (there are 22 allocations for SSgt promotions in teh 0321 MOS)
Jr date of rank for the Promotion Zone for the other Infantry MOS' is : 20000301 that would mean you have to have 3.5 years time in grade as a Sgt to be considered for selection to SSgt. in the Infantry MOS to beocme on 0369. (there are 393 allocations for SSgt promotions to MOS 0369)
--------------------------------------------------
The SSgt to Gunny Board which let out in June:
Jr date of rank for the Promotion Zone for the 0321 field: 19990201 that would mean you have to have four and a half years time in grade as a SSgt to be conisdered for selection to GySgt. in the Recon MOS. (there were 17 allocations for GySgt promotions in the 0321 MOS)
Jr date of rank for the Promotion Zone for the other Infantry MOS' is : 20001101 that would mean you have to have 2.5 years time in grade as a SSgt to be considered for selection to GySgt. in the 0369 MOS . (there were 307 allocations for GySgt promotions to MOS 0369)
------------------------------
There you have it. The pace of promotions in Recon and the regular Infantry fields.
Top,
I should have stated that most of the Marines I served with are not in the Recon anymore.
Thanks for the UPDATE.
RAT OUT!!!
Slick0311
18 July 2003, 16:09
Originally posted by RAT
LOL
When I was in 0331 was a closed MOS. Not a lot I could do to change it. I was an E-3 damn near 4yrs(Had to get a lot of waivers for schools that only allowed NCO's) Funny stories. Going to check into a school command as an E-3. The SSgt, SFC, Gunny who ever would look at me or other E-3's from the Corps and their we would be with a letter from CMC to allow us in to the school. We would sit there for till who ever was in charge at the time and wait for the go ahead....
Cpl 6 months them Frocked Sgt. The Corps held Sgt over my head for re-enlistment. I got out now all my Marines who were in my PLT are now SGTS and GUNNY's. A few of my peers are 1st Sgt's or Master Sgts. Guys making rank in 13 yrs. Good for them.
Talk about how times change.
RAT OUT!!!
Rat,
Talk about salty.:D
dvldgindia
22 July 2003, 13:12
Issue Date: July 07, 2003
SpecOps Marines to train with Navy SEALs
By Gidget Fuentes
Special to the Times
CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. — It’s official. The Marine Corps’ special-operations force is ready to begin training.
Known as “Marine Corps Detachment 1,” the unit was activated in a June 20 ceremony here, marking the start of a test that eventually could make Marines a permanent part of the elite world of U.S. special operations.
Though they will work with Navy SEAL commandos for the time being, the unit will be attached to the U.S. Special Operations Command, the unified command that also is home to the Army’s Special Forces, Army Rangers and Air Force special-operations teams.
The Marine detachment in October will join the SEALs of Naval Special Warfare Squadron 1 at Coronado Naval Base, Calif., where they will train alongside their Navy counterparts before the joint unit deploys overseas in April.
The Marine Corps’ top officer in the Pacific region, Lt. Gen. Earl B. Hailston, presided over the activation ceremony, held at a small parade ground framed by a trio of temporary buildings and surrounded by a security fence.
The commander of Marine Forces Pacific said the detachment “takes the first step” in developing a newly forged relationship between the Marine Corps and the special-ops command “by providing a light, fast and more mobile, ready-to-deploy-with-enhanced-capability force than we’ve had in the past.”
As the concept for a Marine special-ops detachment began taking shape in late 2001, Marines already were working with special operators in Afghanistan, where Task Force 58 scoured Southern Afghanistan for al-Qaida terrorists and Taliban militia.
As a test unit that ultimately could lead to a larger Marine presence at Special Operations Command, “this unit will be closely watched every step of the way,” Hailston said.
“The Marines and sailors in this detachment understand that in this profession, there are no points for second place,” Hailston said, later telling the men: “Good hunting.”
Lt. Col. Robert J. Coates, a colonel-select, will command the unit. Coates’ men will hit the ground running, first training at their team and platoon levels before joining the Navy SEALs and naval special-warfare crews this fall for joint training.
About 200 people attended the activation ceremony, including Michael A. Westphal, a former Marine serving as deputy assistant secretary of defense for special operations and combating terrorism; Rear Adm. Bert Calland, the top Navy SEAL and commander of Naval Special Warfare Command; and former Marine Commandant Gen. P.X. Kelley.
Lt. Col. Giles Kyser, who was the point man in developing the concept, said assessment of the detachment’s progress will decide “what it will turn into.” Kyser is with the Marine Air Ground Task Force special-operations section of the plans, policy and operations branch of Marine Corps headquarters in Washington.
The unit has more than 21 “core capabilities,” including deep ground reconnaissance, human-intelligence exploitation, underwater and parachute operations, counterintelligence and imagery collection.
One veteran saw Detachment 1 as a link between the Corps’ original commando force and the new unit.
“I’m ecstatic to see that we are now returning the Marine Raiders,” said Chuck Meacham of Sequim, Wash., who was the only former Raider at the ceremony.
The unit’s spiritual link to the Marine Raiders is evident in the detachment emblem, which was designed by Gunnery Sgt. Anthony Siciliano, who is assigned to Special Operations Command. The Raiders’ emblem — five stars and a skull on a blue background — is included along with the gold Marine Corps parachutist wings, gold Marine combatant diver insignia, a lightning bolt and the Fairbairn Sykes stiletto knife used by the Raiders and other commandos
dvldgindia
22 July 2003, 13:14
Marines Begin Special Operations Try
Associated Press
June 23, 2003
CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. - Eighty six men have begun a one year trial to determine if the Marines will join Navy SEALs, Green Berets and Air Force Special Operations Forces in the military's special operations forces.
The Marine Corps Special Operations Command Detachment One was activated during a ceremony Friday at Camp Pendleton, where it will begin training next week. In October, the commando force will join Naval Special Warfare Group One in Coronado, Calif., to train with the Navy. It will go overseas in April, likely for combat missions in the war on terror.
Unlike other special operations forces, the Marines unit will have a deep roster of specialists in areas including fire support, counter-intelligence, linguistics and communications. Marine Lt. Col. Robert J. Coates, a seasoned reconnaissance officer, is heading the unit.
The mix of troops "provides the type of light mobile and lethal forces critical to success in the global war on terrorism," said Lt. Gen. Earl B. Hailston, who commands all Marine Corps forces in the Pacific region.
The troops have an unusual degree of seniority and experience. The youngest members are sergeants, with an average age of 33. Each has completed 15 to 20 different schools, which range from airborne and dive schools to advanced courses in close-quarters combat, free-fall parachuting and demolition.
The trial run comes just as the Bush administration seeks to grow the 47,000-member U.S. Special Operations force by 2,563 and boost its budget by 46 percent. The joint command enjoys strong backing from Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
Initially, the Marines' presence will be tiny compared to the 2,700 Navy SEALs and special boat crews, 26,000 Army Rangers and Green Berets and 10,000 Air Force special operations personnel. The Marines troops seemed unfazed by the unit's relatively small size.
Sgt. Mike Mulvihill, a 10-year Marine veteran who left the military two years ago, jumped at Coates' invitation a few months ago to join the force.
"I was doing cartwheels in my living room," said Mulvihill, 35, of Pittsburgh.
Master Sgt. James R. Rutan drew a parallel between the new force and the Marine Raiders, who were pioneers in amphibious reconnaissance operations during World War II.
"Its everything we always wished for to be nationally recognized," Rutan said.
VMI_Marine
22 July 2003, 18:40
Originally posted by dvldgindia
Unlike other special operations forces, the Marines unit will have a deep roster of specialists in areas including fire support, counter-intelligence, linguistics and communications.
If I were a troll, I'd post that in the SF forum's "pot" and commence to stirrin'.
Well, to the Marines of Detachment 1, best of luck, fellas.
Let's see if it winds up being "Detachment One" or "Detachment Only-One".
carolina/california
13 August 2003, 14:35
Originally posted by SGTROCK
Just read an article in the June Soldier of Fortune where they feature a story on the new unit.While the article didnt really state anything that we on these boards didnt already know,I was put off a little bit by a couple of the quotes attributed to CSM Eric Haney(Delta Force,shhh be very very quiet LOL).It also said CSM Haney recently authored a book about his experiences with the unit.What book?Anyone else read this article? If not I can type out his quotes.There is also a picture of the units new logo and the new gold dive bubble is shown,kinda cool.
SgtRock,
This is the quote I read about Eric Haney's book.
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