China preparing for war with U.S.

[knight77]

sorry this is so long

Pentagon study finds
China preparing for war with U.S.
By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


Strategic writings by China's military and party leaders show that China is making plans for war, according to a new Pentagon study.
Some 600 translations of internal Chinese writings by 200 authors reveal China's strategy to defeat a superior foe, using both military and nonmilitary means, such as propaganda, deception and covert action.
They also reveal the extreme distrust of the United States by China's military and party leaders. Chinese generals state that the United States intentionally bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, Yugoslavia, last May as part of a long-term strategy to prompt an arms race that will cause China's collapse.
The Chinese statements from the mid-1990s through last year discuss issues normally couched in secrecy inside China.
They appear in the book "China Debates the Future Security Environment," published last month for the Pentagon's Office of Net Assessment, the unit in charge of long-range planning. The translations were edited by Michael Pillsbury, a defense policy planner in the Reagan administration who is fluent in Chinese.
The official Chinese views from Communist Party and military officials contradict other claims by the Beijing government that China poses no threat to the United States or other nations.
Chinese strategists plan to use a combination of Marxist-Leninist doctrine and ancient Chinese tactics against the United States, which is compared in Chinese military writings as a "hegemon" on a par with Nazi Germany.
Gen. Li Jijun, described as one of China's most distinguished military authors, states that the United States engineered the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait as a "strategic misdirection" or deception.
Other Chinese authors state the United States is working covertly to "dismember" western China, namely Tibet and Xinjiang.
The report is a public document, but the Pentagon is limiting its distribution, presumably because of its stark disclosures of Chinese military thinking.
According to the book, the late Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping set the current military strategy for dealing with the world's only superpower in the slogan "bide our time and build up our capabilities."
A key debate among Chinese military and party writers is how rapidly the United States will decline, a view based on the Marxist ideas on the collapse of capitalism.
The book quotes Gen. Xiong Guankai, the Chinese deputy chief of staff for intelligence, who finished three days of Pentagon meetings last week, as one of China's hard-line theorists.
"Any efforts for seeking hegemony and world domination can only result in accumulating contradictions and fermenting war," Gen. Xiong was quoted as saying in a speech at Harvard University.
Chinese plans also discuss means of taking out U.S. aircraft-carrier battle groups. Chinese writer Ying Nan says the groups have numerous vulnerabilities.
The United States sent two such groups to waters near Taiwan in 1996 in response to Chinese military exercises aimed at the island.
Mr. Ying stated that weaker Chinese forces could defeat the huge carriers because the groups are hard to conceal from radar, are less effective in bad weather and are hampered by shallow water or when operating close to the coast.
Carriers also are vulnerable to repeated attacks with precision weapons fired from unmanned aircraft and to electronic warfare from small ships, offshore islands and aerial balloons that can "create confusion in the electromagnetic environment," he stated.
Carrier battle groups also can be defeated by advanced submarines and by attacks on their support ships because the carriers' anti-submarine capabilities are "relatively poor," Mr. Ying states.
Mr. Ying also cited the carriers' elevators, catapult launchers and arrester wires as "extremely vulnerable" to precision strikes that would make the ships useless.
Chinese military strategists also draw upon the 1991 Persian Gulf war. Chinese tactics — pre-emptive attacks before allied forces had massed, covert attacks inside Saudi Arabia and operations to split the U.S.-led coalition — could have won for Iraq, they wrote.
China now seeks to avoid head-on confrontation until around 2030, when the Chinese expect U.S. power to decline significantly.
However, a war between China and the United States could erupt over Taiwan, according to the Chinese authors. Strategist Gao Hen wrote a U.S. defense of Taiwan would cause a major war of "global and historic implications."
China also plans electronic attacks on computer networks.
"We can make the enemy's command centers not work by changing their data system," wrote Maj. Gen. Pan Junfeng. "We can cause the enemy's headquarters to make incorrect judgments by sending disinformation."

[DemoPup]

Yeah like they actually have a chance against us?? i know i shouldn't under-estimate a foe..... but come on.. china?? their so poor if the all pitched in they still couldn't save enough for a friggin cup-o-noodles..... its pathetic....

[SolidStrike]

Don't forget how many soldiers they have Demo. What is it? Like a billion? Or...just millions. Nevertheless, if they could pull some kinda WW2 large mass battle off, they would win.

[DemoPup]

Yeah.... and with that many people... just easier to bomb the shit out of them..... their country is almost impossible to ive on except for the coastal regions.... all ya need is a week worth of bombings....why take the risk of losing troops if ya don't have to right?? Like they say..... ain't no problem that can't be solved..... with the use of high explosives..... HOOYAH!

[Mike]

Does the Chinese have SEAL-like units? I heard they have something like the sea reconnaissance group. Maybe a bunch of Chinese with rice for lunch, dinner and if they stil live, breakfast.

[recce_o]

Maybe you guys should read Sun Tzu's chapter on "Underestimating Your Foe" before you celebrate a premature victory.

Anyone remember a place called Vietnam? How about Korea?

[shurefire]

Recce-I'm gonna have say amen to that. Maybe this kind of sentiment is exactly what the Chinese are looking for. China has a unit similiar to SEALs that has a lot of operators trained by Spetznaz during the Cold War era and supposedly still today because of the quiet bond that these two countries share. People can poke at China being a third world country and all, but we need to keep a closer look on a country that cares more about beefing up it's military then beefing up (feeding) it's population. The Chinese have been fighting for thousands of years previous to the United States, so they know a thing or two about warfare. Anyways, I think we could win a non nuke war, but God Help everyone on either side if a war ever happened. That's just my 2cents.
jay

[DemoPup]

Fuck the guy you mentioned...... yeah i was born after veitnam but i sure as hell know about it..... and those dirty slimy useless pigs on the hill couldn't pick a god damn trail and travel down it..... we could have whipped those dirty bastards in time to eat a healthy lunch and go back home.... but every damn time we gained ground the fat lard asses in the damn capital said give it up and take a few steps back.... jesus.... that war could have been won in a year tops.... They had numbers.. but superior warriors and much more advanced technology are always better.....

[bmf]

I hate to bust your bubble but let me drop some facts on you. China IS a superpower. The have Nukes, Chem, a great Bio program and a complete disregard for human life. (Just check their human rights violations to see what they do to there own people.) They should be repected! And I will say this. I went to to Vietnam on a JTF-FA MIA recovery mission in Thanh Hoa province SRV (Socialist Republic of Vietnam)last year. Whast I saw was a complete third world shit hole with the average joe-shmoe the peasant running around barefoot eating one pan of cold rice a day. I've seen so many GI's complain that their desert sucked in their 2nd MRE of the day. I also worked hard with these people for over a month and learned that they are hard-fucking-core. The american public, for the most part, is soft. These peasants in China and Vietnam are accustomed to a life that would make most Americans comitt suicide. If we faught a large scale war, do you realize that the draft would be back in affect? We would be sending out Mr. 18 year old Sega Dreamcast Boy to fight some of the hardest people on the planet. Respect this. Technology goes a long way and I'm glad for it, but it has made us (as American's) a soft people. If you do not believe me, do some research and see just what the assholes in Afhganistan are doing right now. They aint e-mailing chat-rooms, and they aint watching Seinfeld. They're learning to make semtex and launch RPG-7's. They're planning the next hit on U.S. soil. They're learning how to cripple our infrastructure and kill U.S. servicemen. Respect this.
On a side note, use this great technology Americans are so proud about (internet) and get to know your potential enemies. Learn their customs, their history, and their cause. Once you know and respect these people, it will be that much easier to effectively wipe them off the planet.

Chance favors the prepared mind.

[pn]

"Mr. 18 year old Sega Dreamcast Boy"

<lol>
ah to be a highschooler again...

[dvpj]

You will only kill the man; you will never defeat a people who are willing to throw rocks and shoot arrows at an attack helicopter.
Americans on the whole have no concept of the cultural issues we would be facing if we were to attempt to engage in a fight with the Chinese people. It would be long and very costly in terms of dollars and a most precious commodity...soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines.

[DemoPup]

Yeah i will give ya that those guys are " hard core" cause they are poor as hell and still live... but are you forgeting our special forces..... SEALs alone in Nam killed 10,000 VC. I dont' know about you.. but a fucking 200 to 1 kill ratio is pretty damn impressive..... I won't mention the green berets since they had a mission succes in the second year of veitnam of what?? 0%... a 100% casualty rate?? And i would agree with you... most of the kids nowadays are out there playing games and wasting time.... and i have seen some of them fail PT tests that would seem as enduring as batting your eye lashes to a real soldier.... Yeah they are poor so they have nothing to lose... but ya know what.... their poverty prevents being able to arm half of the damn country.... of and as for all of the bio crap and such.... Yeah well.... thats good for them.... so did the germans in WWII..... what happened to them again??? Oh yeah that right.. most of the senior officers killed themselves so they wouldn't be takin to trial for war crimes.... China isn't a super power.... WE police the world.... its US who helps the poor.... kills the oppressors.... Besides.... our satellites can pick up just about anythign that happens.... if the Heads of the country were seriously worried about what the chinese were doing, they would have disbanded the chinese in aheart beat just like the Iraqis.... So two shits to the chinese.....

[recce_o]

Demopup:

Are you in specops? Have you graduated from high school yet?

[shurefire]

Recce-Just look at his profile. I don't want to start a flame war but;Sorry,and maybe it's just me, but I ain't hearing anything a kid in high school has to say about war. Comparing China to Iraq??? C'mon, let's be serious about that.
Jay

[DemoPup]

Yo yeah i'm in high school..... but what SpecOps are you in that is in CANADA??? But i plenty about war.... i talked to my uncle who served two tours in Nam as a sniper.... i know enough about war.... And yeah you could compare Iraq and China cause its just the fact that we stepped in when Iraq started makin Biological weapons. China doesn't stand a chance..... we don't even need to send in ground troops.... we can make the Air Force look good and just send in air missions.... drop a few A Bombs and its over faster then Desert storm..... So don't sit there and debate my ability to size up the issue at hand....

[recce_o]

Demopup,

It is plainly evident that you know plenty about war. I didn't say you have no right to express an opinion. A lot of people died so that you have the right to say whatever you want. But... here's my advice to you: credibility and reputation are your most precious assets. Once they're gone you can't ever get them back. And I hope you don't interpret this as a flame, because I'm trying to help you out.

Recce

[Jack Ryan]

Drop a few "A-bombs."??? Gosh, I didn't know it was that easy.

[Jack Lutz]

If you use any kind of NBC munitions your just asking for retaliation.

Demopup you are rather ignorant for one who insists on speaking about a could-be global conflict. I doubt if you know anything of the Chinese culture or military capabilitys (for that matter, any other country you talked of as being low=threat little punks we can walk over, or whathave you) beyond what you have picked up in movies.

Just my opinion, but I think a lot of people here have said the same thing in one form or another.

[shurefire]

Demo- Canada??? Ohhhhhh I see, you thought that the "CA" in "Bay Area, CA" as my location in my profile meant Canada. Well I'm just plain stupid, didn't want to confuse anyone. And BTW, Canada has Spec Ops units, and they are pretty damn good, just go check out JTF-2's information on Tom's site under INT'L SpecOps units "CANADA". And I never said I was any type of operator ever. I am trying to gather the fruits of experience and knowledge of the BTDT's that are willing to help out us gonnabe's and wannabe's on this forum, like yourself. I think if you kept your ears open half as much as your mouth we would all have a much better time. Your comments on this thread are very ignorant at best and probably like myself everyone else probably shakes their heads at your statements..but it is a free country, thank God and thank the Veterans. That's not to say I don't know where you're coming from though, I know what you mean. I love this country too and think that it is this greatest on earth, and that our military is what all other nations judge it's prowess by, but doesn't every country take pride in their own thinking it's the allmighty? Of course they do that's how you get conflict because people think they can win. I think China's people would have the same sentiments about their military. The US possesses a more progressively advanced force because of technology, but as stated before they have A L O T of people. If they are driven enough and passionate about their cause, the end result is unknown. It is not uncommon for a pack of starving tigers to bring down and devour the most powerful animal on land-an elephant. but then again, I may be wrong.
Jay

[bmf]

I've just got to drop my two cents in on this one
To demo-puppy,
Look man I dig your bravado. I might have been that hoo-yah once myself. Am I an operator? Check my profile,I'll let you make that call. SO here's where I'm coming from. You don't know shit about what war is really like. You don't know what it's like to stand in a smoking hole at Khobar Towers. You don't know what it's like to loose a friend on a helo off CA (R.I.P. "Corky" from Force)I fucking hate to see CNN break for any special brodcast. I have made my emergency deployments, I have missed enough Holidays, and I have been to FAR to many name additions to the EOD memorial. I serve to protect our country nto start shit, I hope you will do the same. Spec-ops is a quiet professional world. They don't scream in Bars that Bin Laden smokes pole. (they may think it though!!8) Our forces are as shit hot as any, but let me say this. Enough of them have died already. If you continue to talk like this you will effectively push away any of the few real operators out from this site because it's full of a bunch of dip shitted kids. Sit back, ask solid questions and begin the learning process that continues through any spec-ops career.
On a side note, I would not slam the Beanies again. That is a huge mistake on your part. I have deployed and worked closely with these guys and they're damn good. They have a tough mission and they're the best at it in the world. enough said....
Please remove your head from your rectum and join the rest of the thinking world. You have a second chance don't fuck it up.

[This message has been edited by bmf (edited 02-04-2000).]

[SolidStrike]

I see it this way. We will never have another full-scale land-air-sea like World War 2 again. No matter what Tom Clancy thinks up, I don't believe it will happen. Sure we had Desert Storm. But what was the most the grunts got to do? Do some a few days of night fighting and let the tanks and planes win the war (I;m not including AF Spec Ops, SEALs, or Berets- they did alot there). There will never be another Normandy, Iwo Jima, or Battle of the Bulge again. There is to much radar, and heat seaking shit for them to be needed. But, if China does do that hacking Warfare or what the other guy was talking about,and shut us down, then there may be a need for something large. We would lose to China if we had to slug it out with thier millions of troops. Sure, we have our huge Air Force who could drill them down to a pulp, our Navy who could control the waters, and our Army...thats one thing. They;re soft. Ever since they let women in the Marines and Army have lost their "grrrruff" reputation. No disrespecting the Marines and Army- they're still great- but things have been slacked down. Like someone mentioned, the East is hardcore. America is turning to slop with its porn, Dawson's Creek WB shit, barely any care for America's children's fitness, TV, and all that. Its made us into Pussies. There are still the ones who know whats going on and who are doing something about it though. I hope John McCain (i dont know how to spell it) wins. He will start to set things straight. Another thing is, kids have no respect for anything anymore. Always going around cursing out teachers, hitting their parents, doing what they want. I guess I hate that because I always thing of my relatives and all the other Vet's who made this country what it is, not to let some little rap-listening, pot smoking, school-shooting fucks ruin it. Somalia was a wake up call to us. It show's we're not the kings of the world. We got in some trouble to a bunch of raggedy ass skinnies. But they were fearless. They kept coming. "The Best Light Infantry Force" in the world got some flak. Again, I highly respect the Rangers, but that should show something. So in the end, I guess what I'm saying is what Shurefire was saying. China should not be an after thought. So many of our ancestors have been lost to the Vietnamese, Nazis, and Japanese. We're they very big countries? No...but they had grit, leaders, and they had alot of men...or something...*cough* anyway, put Japan next to China...China is the most populated place in the world. They couldn't give two shit if they lost 100,000 men. Sorry if I disrespected any of our servicemen, as thats the last thing i wanted to do, but I wanted to show that we have a chance of losing in anything. And I thank our Vets and present warriors for keeping our country safe, as I will one day be doing as SEAL...and I'm 100% positive I will become one. There is no doubt. I know it will be hard as hell. But I'll do it. Sorry for this long rant...but to cap it off, we can have all the radars, smart bombs, stealth, and whatever we want. But there will always be something 'they' have, and we don't. China has been fighting a looong time. They know war. We know it too. I just hope whatever happens, that we kick ass. Which regardless of what I've said, we will.

[JSOCMarine]

Demo-Pup,
You may want to know that as a high-schooler you are entitled to speak like you have in this string. However, the minute you don a uniform and spout that kind of immature bullshit you will be at the least identified as a shit-talker, and may well get your ass jacked by a member of the unit(s) you have slandered. In fact, people who talk such shit often get their ass fired up by a member of their own unit! It's inevitable.

I know that as soon as others with experience read this post they will nod their heads with a knowing smile. As they say, "It's a shame youth is wasted on the young!"

Lest you forget what war is about from talking to your uncle or reading books I recommend that you read the Beirut Tribute posted on the MEU-SOC string. Print it. Read it....several times. Then read it again, and realize that you won't ever know how tough or brave you will be until you find your ass in a situation like this where you are scared shitless and shaking because you don't want to die, but you know that are probably going to.

Until you face something like this, and perform well, all the bravado and bluster is simply unqualified shit-talking. Until then, do not demean or insult the efforts of those who have faced shot and shell. You simply do not have the right to do that.

And remember, there are very few immaturity problems that can't be solved by a Chief's or Sergeant's boot straight into the offender's asshole! High explosives are not necessary! Good luck to you.

[DemoPup]

To all..... I see your point of veiw... and to BMF..... actually i saw my best friend in kindergarten crushed to pieces under the bus he had just gotten off of... then i saw some little kid kick hi sear down the sewer... so don't tell me what its like to lose a friend... I know war is hell.... ain't suppose to be a pick nick people die people live, when i join.. whether i die or live doesn't matter as long as i die with honor serving my country... and i know you can't under estimate the enemy.... and to shurefire... i could have sworn that your ID said Canada in big bold letters.... to those who think an all air strike is impossible... it makes the most sense... why waste the people.. like one of the NUMEROUS people that replied said... since they let women in it ain't the same.... ( i have the ut most respect for the corps and the army...) The thing is.... why waste the life if ya don't have to?? and thats what the pigs on the hill will say.... come on... now adays we got ships that shoot missiles 500 miles far.... bombs that are so accurate that you can pick which fuckin window you want to put it in.... Maybe i am underestimating the chinese.... but i will tell you this.... WE are the worlds super power.... we run the show... nobody else... we have the money.. the weaponry.... To all of " you" out there, I will admit i have possible underestimated china.... if you all admit that you don't give enough credit to our country.... We are the home of the free and the brave.... We create soldiers of the highest quality.... we take those soldiers and we train soldiers in other countries.... we over came the Vc in nam when we trained SEALs to play the guerilla game better then its inventors the VC themselves.... we can do it again and beat the enemy at its own game.... Cause we are the best.... ( to those i offened i apoligize... but i speak of nothing but what can happen with intiative and courage.... not to mention wits.... )
PS..... He head ain't in my ass ( to ever made that childish remark... ) and High explosives can fix people as well as obstacles....

[SpecOpNightfall]

To all who have read and dealt with Demo, pleases don't think that all of us in high school are full of as much shit as he (though ALL teens are full of some amount of shit till it is kick out of them in boot camp:-). I for one would be scared shit less if I saw China go heads on toward us with all it could muster. And like one of you said, their people vs. our people would be down right sad. We young ones in VERY vast majority are a sadly unfit, unknowledgable, ignorant, ego manical, fashion obsessed, wanna be thugs with an additude problem and a belief that we're invincible. I wish that everyone would be put through but camp once they hit 15. That would deal with the likes of Demo and others well, don't you think? Not to mention prepare us to be future recruits far better. But there is no way that could happen in this current public way of anti-war, anti-gun, anti-anything possibly helpful in the military atmosphere. Oh well, I've kinda gotten off track. What I'm saying is, although 99.99% of all teens don't know jack about anything (let alone spec ops) there is a .01% of us who strive to be warriors and, although we relize that we can never truly understand until the bullet comes toward us, we push ourselves to become the people that can Get The Job Done.

[bmf]

TO JSOCMarine:

My head nods,

To Demo puppy:
When you watched your friend get killed did you ever fear for your life?

You fucked it up.

[This message has been edited by bmf (edited 02-04-2000).]

[Snake]

To: Demopup

DP,
take it from someone who, if the balloon goes up, does not expect to make it back from a confrontation with China, Peoples Republic of. My Unit, the 25th ID(L), doesnt have enough bullets and arty rounds to face off a Chinese ground offensive for more than a couple of days. The term "speedbump" mean anything? The Chinese -might- put it in the Beijing news if they lost a division. With us, it removes a tenth of our ground capability from active inventory. Read your Korean War history. Airpower doesnt mean that much to the Chinese, they ahve enough SAM's to knock down the Pacific Fleet's air wings about 30 times over.
Simple equation:
Land War in Asia= Defeated US

Plus, if we blow it in a spectacular manner, expect Chinese soldiers to be raping your sister/mother within 2 years. This is no shit: we screw up and give them the upper hand for a few months, we'll never get out of it. And -THEY- have nukes too, and the capability to use them. Also, they have the capability to replace losses in most men and material, quicker than us. There are advantages to a lower tech base, they can build MiG-21's about 20 times faster than we can build F-15's. Oh, and if you know anyone stationed in Korea, give em a hug and say goodbye. A Light Div. wont even make them blink when they start rolling. Most people here, dont understand the mind of people willing to use human-wave tactics in modern war. Underestimate them and your looking at reeducation camps in Oklahoma before your out of College....

Snake
25th ID(L)

[z]

Hello,

NO you are very much mistaken. China is at war with the world. The funny thing is China lives by the Rules of Rome, while the rest of use live by the Rules of fools. Fools that believe that a bad friendship is better than a War for fairness, a fight for Democracy.

Chinese leaders want China to take her rightful place in the world. What they mean is, they want China to rule the world. Like once she did. Well, perhaps, just a big part of, it with the Help of the Mongals.

The Chinese system is not bound by any concept of justice, or fair play or even mercy. It is just about how to win, using what ever it takes. They have stolen your nuclear secrets and most of the Western Worlds. They have gained access to all the most personal and secret documents about your society by way of Credit burrows and Data Management companies. Companies bought in Canada and other Countries including the United States. They have penetrated the security of NATO and have a deep understanding about how the military works in the West.

There military runs the Big Circle Boys. An organised crime group that is involved in making money by destroying Western societies.

China, is to be feared. Not for what you think you see, but for what they are hiding from view.

In the next War China will win. Not because they are better than anybody else, but because they are preparing for it. Using our money, our technology, our political forums.

But wait. China has very high unemployment which is leading to social unrest. Is there a possibility of a democratic system developing, in response to the unrest. No! The rules of Rome. When in trouble invade somebody. I would say Taiwan is in for some trouble in the near future and perhaps even Vietnam. I wounder why Thai Land wanted those F16?

And what do you think the United States Of America, The guardian of world Wide Democracy, will do. Nothing. Nothing at all. And the rest of The Western World will be silent. Oh perhaps somebody will announce in a press conference that they had some very tough words with the Communist in China. And that a "tough" poster campaign will be launched along with some radio ADs demanding that the Chinese stop invading China.

Then what? Other undemocratic societies, supported by money earned by China though trade with the West (legal and illegal), will fight a guerrilla war. Right in the hart of the West. And racism will paralyze us. We will look at the colour of peoples skin and think we see the enemy. We will attack ourselves.

Why? Because we our not willing to take the fight to the Communists. We do not demand trade based on reciprocity. We do not seek to make multicultural (a mutual respect for different cultures but the embracing of democratic ideals) the conner stone on which our friendship is based.

We could win, not by violent engagement. However, through the export of Multiculturalisam, Trade Unions, the Womans movement, people power, ecetara. But that is exactly what they are doing to us. They are magnifying our divisions. To destroy us before we get to the battle field. They will,once they are sure they will win, use violence to extract payback for the Opium War and all the injustices that they feel we have given them, like poverty. If the roles where reversed. We would not, extract any type of payback. Because equality and fairness for all is what we call VICTORY. However, in the rules of Rome Victory is extracting revenge. And that Sir is what the Chinese Communists want. Payback! REVENGE!

They blame the whole world for there poverty and backwardness. They blame us for the failure of the Cultural Revolution. They blame us for their unemployment, for their lack of electricity, for their lack of modern amenities. Every day the people listen to the state run media (Every Newspaper, Magazine, Text book, Television Station, Poster, Radio Station, Novel, Short stories, Comic books. Every Media! nothing but Government approved Material.). That drills into their heads how great they are and how bad the rest of the world is. How they have been cheated by the EVIL West. And that one day they will rise to their rightful place. The Great Communist Party of China will once again make China the center of the world. The controllers of the planet. That the dogs of the West and all others will kneel at the feet of the Great Communist China.

A threat to Democracy anywhere is at threat to Democracy everywhere!
All I can say is "Give me liberty or give me death,and pass the ammo".

But really, the best way to protect yourself is to boycott Chinese products. Remember that 50% of every dollar they get goes into making the bullets and booms they are planning to use on us.

z

[z]

Hello,

NO you are very much mistaken. China is at war with the world. The funny thing is China lives by the Rules of Rome, while the rest of use live by the Rules of fools. Fools that believe that a bad friendship is better than a War for fairness, a fight for Democracy.

Chinese leaders want China to take her rightful place in the world. What they mean is, they want China to rule the world. Like once she did. Well, perhaps, just a big part of, it with the Help of the Mongals.

The Chinese system is not bound by any concept of justice, or fair play or even mercy. It is just about how to win, using what ever it takes. They have stolen your nuclear secrets and most of the Western Worlds. They have gained access to all the most personal and secret documents about your society by way of Credit burrows and Data Management companies. Companies bought in Canada and other Countries including the United States. They have penetrated the security of NATO and have a deep understanding about how the military works in the West.

There military runs the Big Circle Boys. An organised crime group that is involved in making money by destroying Western societies.

China, is to be feared. Not for what you think you see, but for what they are hiding from view.

In the next War China will win. Not because they are better than anybody else, but because they are preparing for it. Using our money, our technology, our political forums.

But wait. China has very high unemployment which is leading to social unrest. Is there a possibility of a democratic system developing, in response to the unrest. No! The rules of Rome. When in trouble invade somebody. I would say Taiwan is in for some trouble in the near future and perhaps even Vietnam. I wounder why Thai Land wanted those F16?

And what do you think the United States Of America, The guardian of world Wide Democracy, will do. Nothing. Nothing at all. And the rest of The Western World will be silent. Oh perhaps somebody will announce in a press conference that they had some very tough words with the Communist in China. And that a "tough" poster campaign will be launched along with some radio ADs demanding that the Chinese stop invading China.

Then what? Other undemocratic societies, supported by money earned by China though trade with the West (legal and illegal), will fight a guerrilla war. Right in the hart of the West. And racism will paralyze us. We will look at the colour of peoples skin and think we see the enemy. We will attack ourselves.

Why? Because we our not willing to take the fight to the Communists. We do not demand trade based on reciprocity. We do not seek to make multicultural (a mutual respect for different cultures but the embracing of democratic ideals) the conner stone on which our friendship is based.

We could win, not by violent engagement. However, through the export of Multiculturalisam, Trade Unions, the Womans movement, people power, ecetara. But that is exactly what they are doing to us. They are magnifying our divisions. To destroy us before we get to the battle field. They will,once they are sure they will win, use violence to extract payback for the Opium War and all the injustices that they feel we have given them, like poverty. If the roles where reversed. We would not, extract any type of payback. Because equality and fairness for all is what we call VICTORY. However, in the rules of Rome Victory is extracting revenge. And that Sir is what the Chinese Communists want. Payback! REVENGE!

They blame the whole world for there poverty and backwardness. They blame us for the failure of the Cultural Revolution. They blame us for their unemployment, for their lack of electricity, for their lack of modern amenities. Every day the people listen to the state run media (Every Newspaper, Magazine, Text book, Television Station, Poster, Radio Station, Novel, Short stories, Comic books. Every Media! nothing but Government approved Material.). That drills into their heads how great they are and how bad the rest of the world is. How they have been cheated by the EVIL West. And that one day they will rise to their rightful place. The Great Communist Party of China will once again make China the center of the world. The controllers of the planet. That the dogs of the West and all others will kneel at the feet of the Great Communist China.

A threat to Democracy anywhere is at threat to Democracy everywhere!
All I can say is "Give me liberty or give me death,and pass the ammo".

But really, the best way to protect yourself is to boycott Chinese products. Remember that 50% of every dollar they get goes into making the bullets and booms they are planning to use on us.

z

[pn]

You know DemoPup, you should know that this forum is frequented by a couple ex-SOF types who are quite familiar with the intricacies of TCP/IP (that means the Internet to you). Piss off enough people and shit *will* find YOU. You did learn this lesson after reading Rogue Warrior, right?

Keep this up and you may find yourself in a world of hurt when you get to basic, to say nothing of BUD/S, RIP or OL-H.

-pn

[This message has been edited by pn (edited 02-05-2000).]

[Doctor Evil]

Should China ever preemptively seek out war with the West, the answer is simple. We should seek out to totally destroy China physically with nuclear weapons. Scorched earth policy...commit genocide against the Chinese. Kill them all and let God sort them out. Fuck the ground war, fuck the massed wave assaults, just nuke them all until they glow. Let China mess with the US...and watch them get their asses nuked so bad they will never recover from it. Bomb them back to the stone age and laugh about it.

Remember, MacArthur wanted to very badly nuke mainland China during the Korean war. And Truman fired the great general for it too. Seems like MacArthur could see it coming and wanted to head things off at the pass when we still had the upper hand. MacArthur wanted to just go back to the basics and he got fired for it. Go figure.

The answer for Chinese aggression is nukes baby...and more nukes...genocide is not always such a bad thing. Lay it on thick and heavy.

There will be a lot of barbecued chinese laying around if they ever push it too far with the west. If they wanna be cannon fodder, let them be cannon fodder. Push the button and watch them burn...hehehe

[SolidStrike]

For one, I liked Snake's post alot.

Secondly, Dr. Evil, you're crazy.

[jw]

My $.02
There won't be a war with China because when all is said and done, after all the political posturing, we will let them to their own devices. Do I feel they're a threat? Yes. Do I feel the politicians will back down? Yes. Do I feel the American public will support military action? No.
As far as the "We're the thoughest on the block" mentality, so what? We very seldom wipe our own ass without U.N. approval. It doesn't matter what we "could" do, but what our politicians and international law will let us do.
Do not under estimate chem/bio warfare. The U.S. program is only defensive in nature. Add to that we have very little in the way of preventative measures set up in the States. It's getting better, but if you keep your eye/ears open, you'll see that the Gov't is worried about this. There's new groups popping up everywhere to try and cope with an attack/accident.
As far as China being poor, understand that Bio is the cheapest type of warfare to wage. pennies per 100 casualties. All you need is a knowledgable person and a decent lab. Most material is right outside your door waiting to be refined. Delivery system is a little trickier, but not too hard.
As far as all this "Brave talk" about giving your life for your country. Ask the guys who have had those close calls, whether in training or combat. I'm pretty sure most will tell you they weren't thinking how cool it would be to make the'ultimate sacrifice'. More likely they were thinking about getting home to their families in one piece.
For those of you that are not/were not in the military, you have a right to your opinion, and to express it, but don't try to go toe to toe with those that have been there. You come out looking foolish.

[RKW]

I agree with SolidStrike,
Docter Evil is insane.

RKW

[z]

Wrong! The USA has nuclear weapons but politically can never use them....First. China has them and will use them whenever they are ready. To sink or damage shipping. Who needs a deep water Navy when you have a few thousand n-tipped Silkworms.

Tactical not Strategic. That is how they plan to use Nukes.

Strategically they use trade and organized crime groups.

Even if you used Nukes how many do you think you would kill? 500 hundred million or Perhaps 600 hundred million? That still leaves more than half of them left. How much will the relief effort cost? How do you feed over 600 hundred million people? 600 hundred million plus people living in a nuclear drop zone! 600 hundred million plus people who hate the outside world. And now have even more reason to do so.

Then you still have the clean up. You just cannot leave half a billion bodies lying out in the sun. Viruses and Bacteria will have a heyday. And just think about the mutations (in the viruses and bacteria) caused by the radiation and extra Ultra violate.

War we cannot win, but peace we can. One of the biggest problem to winning the peace is a bit of historical fact. The greatest contact with Asia in modern times has been through Soldiers, Pirates and Priests. This has lead to some very bad social out comes and myth about what democracy is and what the West is all about.

Specifically, our raciest attitude about interracial marriages has lead to so very sad situations. A good Soldier is a good citizen. A good citizen is a good husband and father. The social carnage left behind at foreign military bases in Japan, Korea, Philippians and Vietnam is a disgrace on the honour of all servicemen. How many of our children our living on the streets of Vietnam? She may have been a whore but she is your whore with your children. Good fathers do not leave their children for others to raise. No matter who the mother was, it is still your son, your daughter.

If you want to win the hearts and minds of the Chinese you must give them hope that they too can and will belong in a free and democratic society. That means if they join the family of democratic countries they too can hope to be equals. That their daughters will not be whores but somebodies wife. That their sons can be seen as a good fathers.

Strong family ties can reduce conflict and strengthen the bonds of society. The more Asian woman that are poping out foreign babies the greater the chance for world peace. You just have to remember to feed them and keep them warm. If you can do that, according to their customs, you can have more than one.

So forget the bombs, the bullets, the airplanes. Bring on the Viagra lets do are duty and bring honour to all Servicemen past and present. How tough could life be if you wives are named Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday? Six income house hold can't be poor. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif


z

[jw]

Z,
Who stated the U.S. doesn't have Nuclear capabiity?

[z]

I am sorry I do not understand your question. Did someone say the USA does not have nuclear weapons?

[jw]

I took your 'wrong' out of context.

[z]

Understandable, I do run on at the keyboard.

z

[Snake]

The Pacific Fleet is our greatest strength in this kinda game. Problem is, we cant really bring it too near to mailand China. They have about 4-5,000 ASM's. Which is, unfortunately, more than enough to saturate a CBG's point defense. If we screw up, and the PACFLT ends up on the bottom, the Chinese will be in through Alaska or landing in California within a couple of years. Worse case scenario: We lose, fall of Western Civilization, and we get ethnically cleansed out of existence. Unacceptable outcome. As for the nukes, forget about it. We wont use em first, so when we does use em, its too late.

Snake
25th ID(L)

[bmf]

I believe the best course of action is to saturate their culture with ours, feed them democracy through the internet, and let the average Joe (or is it Han)see just how much better everybody else in the free world has it. I think this tactic worked in Russia and think it has merit here. Let their people fight their Government! Problem is, I think China is a bit better at controlling what comes in to the country. Sounds like an epic PSYOP to me...

[MRK]

gee, i wish i knew everything too.

[bmf]

How bout anything?

[specoper]

Never under estimate a potential foe. The Chinese Minister of Defense has said that war with the U.S. is inevitible. This is a direct reflection of the attitude of the Communist Party. And they are preparing. Are We? Reeks of our position before WWII to me.

[z]

Gentlemen some very good replies's. However, a very important point has been missed. The Chinese are, right, now at war with the world. Not just the USA. Everything they do is directly related to their desire to dominate the world. There is nothing in their relationship with the outside world that is based on friendship. They smile but where is the free flow of people, ideas, dialog, and of course product. That is right there is none taking place. Their relationships are based purely on the Tactical and strategic needs of their war plan.

Leaders of the West need to wake up and understand that China is a Communist Dictatorship at WAR. We need to ensure that all our relationship with China are geared toward the end of the Communist rule. Perhaps, a better way of saying this is: All our relationships should be greared towards the peaceful transfer of power from a primitive Communist dictatorship to a modern multi-party system, in China.

If the President of the United States wants to allow China into the World Trade Organization he should first get the Communist of China to agree to a Multi-party system and a time frame as to when it will be implemented. Impossible! How do you know unless you try? They need are markets because their's is so corrupt you are never sure if you are going to get paid. And even if you do get paid you can never be sure that someone in the communist party will not just take it.

I know that every leader, business and political, are frighten of being kept out of the great Chinese market. Well Guess what, it has been almost 15 years and we still have little if any access. And yes it is the biggest consumer market in the world. But they do not have any money either. Why? Because most of the people are unemployed or underemployed. I strongly suggest that we stop engaging China on trade and all other contact. It would be wiser to move on to India. India has the largest middle class in the world. Yes bigger than the USA. In fact, India's Hollywood, as I have been told, makes 10 times the amount of money than does Hollywood USA. Something to think about even, if it is really only on par. As for being left out of the China market and having others fill the gap. Very simple, if the French what to sell airplanes to China, go right head. But forget about selling anything made in France in the USA. How are they going to argue engaging a Communist Dictatorship that is at war with the world, at war with their own people? What are they going to tell their people? "It is Okay, the Chinese Communist only want to kill your husband and rape you children". Something tells me that even in the translation it still does not sound too good, no matter what language you put it in, or how good the spin doctors are.

Yes, Europe is important. Put it is time for them to make a choice, between Democracy and Dictatorship. What is needed is a Western leader to stand up and tell the truth about our collective foreign policy regarding China. "THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES". We must let the Chinese know that we want to be their friend, but on equal terms. We our not interested in second class treatment. We must tell them loud and clear "You treat us like criminals but we treat you like a brother". "So do not call! Until you are ready to afford all the rights and privileges, that your citizens and business enjoy in our country, to our citizens and business in yours". The concept of equality needs to be driven home to the Communists in China.

Disengagement would force a change in China. But more importantly it will clarify the issue in the rest of the world. It would draw a line in the sand between Democracies and Dictatorships. People will have to decide if they are for Democracies or not. The blurring of the lines would be eliminated.

Please do not think that every chinese person on the plant is a Communist. Very few are. Most of them just simply want to have an easy life and watch the children grow. World domination is just the desire of a few demented Chinese leaders. But understand that hate propaganda that openly encourages racism is broadcast daily in the Chinese Media world wide. The communist system teaches their children to hate foreigners and to "Stamp out spiritual pollution".

There is a threat to all democracies world wide. And the question is whether we are going to continue to use the FAILED Kissinger policy of engagement or move on to containment. We have been appeasing the Communist for too long and the bottom line is that we have given them the money, technology, and know how to destroy us. We have allowed are policy to blind us to potential alias in this region. Such as India. It is time to move on. It is time to deal with other great countries that may want a true friendship. Perhaps, it is time to start dialog with Mongolia.

z

[Doctor Evil]

As BMF pointed out, the root of the problem is the chinese communist party. Physically eliminate the chinese communist party...that is all I have to say. And if that dont work...nukem til they glow in the dark for a thousand years.

[Doctor Evil]

Another point I would like to make is that China is fast becoming the most industrialized country in the world. One time I took a geographical economics course in college back in the early nineties. The professor was British, from the London School of Economics. The main point he was trying to make in that class was simple. That the US economy has become based on service jobs instead of the heavily industrialized economy we once had up until the eighties. Our economy has become saturated with service jobs...customer service, medical field, food service, etc. Jobs where you dont produce a physical product but produce a service of some sort.

China's economy on the other hand, is becoming more of a heavily industrialized country. Many, many products now consumed in the USA are made in China. Many US companies are going there to set up shop. Why? Many reasons but for one they dont have to deal with strict environmental laws, they dont have to deal with labor unions and the chinese are extremely hard workers...and cheap too. This heavy industrialisation, along with the United States's deindustrialisation, could lead to us becoming unprepared for a heavy war down the road.

[z]

Nukes are not an option. The USA will never use them first. Using them after the fact does not bring back the Carrier task forces or the ports that the Chinese invariable have just nuked.

In addition, bombing them back to the stone age is silly because half the country is already there.

Further, if we did nuke China, in an effort to vaporize the Communist Party, how our we going to stabilize the situation afterwards. The costs would be enormise if not overwhelming.

The points about the shift in industrialization are well taken. But how do you go about stopping the headlong rush to the lowest common denominator in environmental standards, labour standards, eccetara? Do you impose higher tariffs on products produced in places that do not meet USA standards?

z

[DemoPup]

Yo whats your problem Specopsnightfall??? You a traitor to the country and the stars and bars????!! And whats with you and talking shit about me..... Hell i would have killed to get into the god damn navy at 15 but the fucks won't take me..... there is and age thing... i'd love to go to BUDs and have my ass kicked and feel all that pain.... its what i live for.... And im not ignorant.... it can be done... what the hell are you talking abotu shit your pants scared of the chinese?? I what to know why the hell that is..... with a nick name like you have i would figure you would atleast have confidnece in Americans elite..... I'm not even going to stoop to your level and insult you cause i'm above it..... I still stand by my beliefs.... we could take china .... no problem.... lives could be lost... depending on how much JSOC would like to jump in and take charge cause lets face it.... the marines aren't as fierce as they were back in the days of Nam and korea..... it aint' so any more sadly.... they are a tough breed don't get me wrong.... but it ain't the same... and as for Z... your are right when you say its tough to nuke them back to the stoneage cause they are there.... but time periods and numbers of people are two different things.. eliminate the enemy... eliminate the threat... As for spceopers opinion.... even if the whole thing turned out to to be WWII all over agian.... please remind me and everyone what country had to go in and save the worlds ass AGAIN???? Now on to SNAKE..... your saying that if we ever did decide to nuke the chinese it would be too late.... so are you saying we should? or that we won't do it unless its necessary and by that time the opportunity had come and gone... Now on to JW..... i can agree with some of the things you said in your post.. but i can't think of anything more honorable then dying for my country... Its not brave talk.... sure no one wants to die.... but if ya do.... honorable is better then a cowards way.... how the saying go again?? a soldier dies but once.. a coward dies a thousand deaths.... Thats all i['m gonna say for now....
PS.... and to PN.... i hope they make my life hell when i get to BUDS.... it will just make me a stronger solider.... i'm not saying i'm defineatly gonna make it.... but i'm gonna give them orders to shoot me if i even say the word BELL..... but that won't happen.... cause its all mental... they train ya for the physical....

[DemoPup]

I just saw this but to BMF..... i don't have a problem with dying.... how the hell you think i got my name not being in the military or EOD??? I like to risk my life.... what the hell... life only comes around once... might as well have fun.... I fucked nothing up..... i just didn't think some one should be sitting there asking me whats its like to see a friend die and that i won't know anythgin about it when it did happen..... they got a saying.... don't ask questions you aint got the answer to..... Why your attacking me i have no clue.. and i sure as hell would like to know.....

[pn]

Whenever I get the urge to write a multi-page diatribe describing The Way Things Are to all the silly, ignorant fools who don't have the brains to see things my way, I pick up a history book and read a couple chapters (That does not include books like Rogue Warrior and Soldier of Fortune's 10th anniversary bombs and guns retrospective). Maybe all you International Relations geniuses should do the same.

Demo, you have heard the voices of the BTDTs, and the general message has been BUTTON IT. Now why the hell wouldn't you listen? These folks have been serving their country longer than you've been alive; don't you think they know just a little more than you?

-pn

[Snake]

Demopup,
First, please lock down the profanity. It's annoying to the professionals, who, contrary to public perception, do not run around talking like they're in "Platoon". Next, that comment about how "it aint been the same since they let the women in", is a very ignorant statement. The state of the armed forces right now has -nada- to do with the presence of females. In fact, I would go so far as to say that female comprise a large portion of our best/most efficient non-combat soldiers.
The lowering of standards and the PT crap come from the JCS/Chief-of-Staff. Not the fault of the females.
Now, as to the use of nuclear weapons. America has a stated national policy against first use of "special weapons" (i.e. Chem Bio Radiological). We dont use them unless -they- use them first. Same reason we didnt put tanks into Mogadishu until -after- we needed em. My personal opinion is that a nice tailored bio-weapon, selected to go after the Han chinese population, would be more efficacious than a nuclear bombardment. Kill the infrastructure, and the Chinese military dies. But then, I'm also a fan of how the Romans made the 3rd Punic War the *last* Punic War. If you have to fight the same people -twice-, your doing something wrong...

Snake
25th ID(L)

[bmf]

It seems we've all given this young pup more than one chance to zip it, sit back, and possibly learn a thing or two. I know I have just by reading some of the other posts. Since he continues to spout ignorance I suggest we turn a def ear.

[z]

Do you really belive that the foreign policy the West has been following vis-vie China has been successful?

China has been around for 5,000 years. Their success is their ability to absorb what they want and just cut out the rest. So I ask you what is the best way to stop the Communist from cutting?

I know that the best way to get a Chinese man to respond is to ignore him. Place your attention some place else. His pride will demand that he be noticed. That is when true heart to heart dialog can begin. If you want to negotiate with the Chinese you have to think like a woman. Jealousy is one of the Chinese greatest weakness.

As for the the young heroes that want to die for their country. It is true we do need more boys like you in the military. It lets the rest of us know where the enemy is firing from. I salute you.
But something tells me that you think that these people are push overs because they perhaps do not enjoy the same DNA pool as you. Do not fool yourself. There is no superior race! Just smart people and lucky people. Statistically speaking the Chinese Mainland has more of both, then any other country.

Just some food for thought for those of you that think it would be easy to fight China. One city in China, Shanghai, has more people living in it then does all of Canada. China has over 25 cities that are, as big as, or bigger than Shanghai. The population of China represents over 25% of the worlds population. What this means is we would run out of ammo before they run out of people. Something korean veterans can tell you about.

z

[z]

I understand that the Brits have developed vires that can be tailored to target DNA specific sequences.

Question: If this tool was used to eliminate others that do not agree with us, where do you draw the line? At what point do you stop?
Could you not end-up having this type of tool being used on people that do not want, for example, Tax breaks.

Z

[z]

Snake,

You made mention of the Punic war. Would you elaborate?

Z

[Snake]

Z,
both good points. I'll address them seperately.

1) Re: Viral warfare. Hey, war sucks. How
bad do you want win? China has a major advantage in it's massive population. Deny them that advantage, and your worries are cut down to size.

2) Re:Punic Wars.
Rome fought 3 Punic Wars with the city-state of Carthage. They won all three. They decided that there was -not- going to be a 4th Punic War. Carthage surrendered, as per usual. Romans then proceed to slaughter every male in the city. Females are sold into slavery or taken by the Roman's as War-Brides (literally!!). City is razed. Fields are sowed with salt. Rome is still a major city in 2000AD. Carthage is a pile of rocks in North Africa. Draw your own conclusions....

Snake
25th ID(L)

[z]

Thank you Snake.

I think everyone who has been reading this understands the rules of Rome, now. War is compete with no half measures. But how do you wage a War and protect democracy at the same time?

Rome not only destroyed its enemies but absorbed them. War brides. It is a method of controlling your enemy at the family level. It also insured that Romes' enemies gave birth to Roman children. In Rome slaves could become citizens. Children born of slaves whos' father was a citizen was Roman.

The weakness of Rome thought, as I understand it, was its inflexibility when administering the law. The concept of mercy and forgiveness did not exist. It would take a Desperate Caesar to adopt Christian as the Faith of the empire in an effort to bring the concept of Justice to the people.

Justice based on fairness not revenge.

Yes, the virus attack does sound great but in the end does it really change anything? I mean you would have many dead communist leaders but would that lead to a change in their system, or would they simple create more communist leaders?

The other issue is that the RNA of a virus is very adaptive. It could very easily mutate and end up kill everyone.

Question: How do you get the Chinese people to want to have a republic like the United States? And how do you support it?

Z

[Snake]

How do you know the Chinese -can- want it?
Your presuming a western worldview. We had democracy off and on for 2500 years. The Chinese have -never- had democracy in 3000 yrs, -ever-. The oriental mindset is different from ours. Buy the way, a tailored virus would wipe out the -Chinese-, not just the communists.....
War to the Knife is not a pretty thing to imagine.

Snake
25th ID(L)

[Snake]

Addendum:
Another little bedtime story to warm your black hearts....

In the late 80's, South Africa was fighting the ZAMPLA's and Cuban's in Angola. The Cuban's, being the lusty latin's that they are, promptly started to make use of the local prostitutes.
South Africa, being a pretty nasty customer itself, saw an opening. They located prostitutes in J-berg that were HIV+, and infiltrated them into Angola.
One thing led to another, the Cubans went home. Now Castro has an HIV epidemic on his hands in Cuba. A little slow acting, but SA did get its revenge......


Snake
25th ID(L)

[z]

Very true!

But back to the original question. How do you get the Chinese to want to have a republic, given that it is not in their mind set to have one?

And life does not limit itself to the wants or demand of mankind. The virus will mutate and everyone will die!

As to the South African thing. The GRID / AIDS / HIV virus is now a pandemic. That means that it is not just a problem in Cuba or Africa. The United States also is victim to it. That also includes the Armed forces. Bio war is great on paper just like Nukes. But it still leaves a big mess that needs to be cleaned up. Or the bodies will just become factories for more exotic viruses and bacteria.
I do question whether wiping out a quarter of the worlds population is what one would call a strategic strike. I do think that it would be very sad to kill all those children just because some demented dump Communist wants to rule the world.

So how do you get them to do what you want with out drawing your sword?

Also if a virus only kills Chinese what about US citizens of Chinese / Asian decent?

Z

[bmf]

I strongly believe that the basic human factors of greed and the want of a better life style are the key to their demise.
Forget trargeting the Commie leaders as they are probably not doing very bad economically.
Who you target is the educated underclass.
When I made a recent deployment to Vietnam I saw quite a bit of anamosity between the local workers and the government officials.
It is VERY distinct class structure, basically the haves and the have nots.
To sum it all up, even your basic rice farmer can not understand why the gov. officials drive luxury 4x4's, while they wait in line for shoes. (These people are not stupid!) The hard part is splitting the crack that is already there.

[z]

Yes very true,

But class systems even when we know that they are bad do not always fad away. Take a look at India's cast system or even Great Britain's. I understand that the Queen of England makes somewhere in the neighbourhood of 25 million a year and is worth 30 billion. That is a lot of juice for essentially just a Fascist system.

So how do you help people move to a republic?

z

[Snake]

Britain is nowhere -near- a fascist system.
Jesse Helms was *not* a multi-millionaire before he became a Senator. Politicians and the ruling class -always- become wealthier than spear bearers like me. But, I like the play the NASDAQ, so who knows. BTW, if there is one thing the communists really hate, it's a middle class. Stalin starved the kulaks in the Ukraine, because of that. The middle class in china is running scared, cause Chines internal security watches them like hawks. They're no help.

Snake
25th ID(L)

[Tom Hunter]

This is Tom Hunter and I have asked Jack Lutz to kill DemoPup's account. I killed it once before, but I guess he didn;t get the hint that he isn;t welcome if all he is going to do is try to incite flame wars and spout crap that he knows is BS.

My apologies to all for allowing his posts to continue - this was just brought to my attention today (Monday).

Tom

[z]

Yes, you are right Snake, Great Britain has a democracy in place. However, I would like to point out that an imperial system is a feudal system that is fascist in nature.

It was only until a few month ago that the House of Lords lost the Hereditary Title Holders. This house affect the passage of laws and its members are not elected by the people.

Members of this house are "THE RIGHT KIND OF PEOPLE", but who makes that decision? If they are not elected by the people then who selects them and on what criteria?

The Chinese Peoples Congress appoints its members too. What is the difference?

If you do not have free election for the people that will be responsible for passing laws, interpreting those laws for enforcement, implementing public policy, and of course coordinating the enforcement of those laws. Can you call it a democracy?

I do not mean to stray to far from the point but just because something looks like a democracy does not make it one. For example in Lebanon the country had a "President", a "Parliament" and a "Commander in Chief". Did that make it a democracy? No. It was just tribalism masquerading as democracy, run by a bunch of grocers.

As long as a system has Kings and Queens, that are their because of hereditary rights, fascism will never die. And the communist will always have a good argument against democracies. Because we keep alive a class system.

[SolidStrike]

Come on Tom. Why delete him? He wasn't purposely trying to start a flame war, he was giving his 2 cents. You can't honestly just throw him off without admitting that. I can see why you're all mad, but still, I guess he was sensitive or he was very into this topic. Give him another chance.

[Snake]

Z,
What you've got to understand is that Britain has the House of Commons, which, for the last century, has held the bulk of political power. The House of Lords kept the goverment on track over a long period of time, whereas the elected guys dont always look far into the future. Fascism is the right of the State holding supreme authority.
Britain is not fascist, in fact, they threw the facsist's in jail during WWII.
They are as democratic as the US is.
Moreso, in fact, as their government isnt dominated by special interest groups like our's is. BTW, China is Moaist, which is a freaky sort of Communism.

Snake
25th ID(L)

[SolidStrike]

I don't want to drag this along, and this will be the last of it, but DemoPup had to say something but he's banned now. Here is what he says:

"To all those i offended.. i apoligize..... It wasnt' my intention to start some kidn of war.. i was mearly stating my opinion.... as for the profanity. I would also like to apoligize. It wasn't profeesional of me like you said, but i used ti to show how "upset" i was that no one would take me serious because i am not military and that i am in Highschool. Sure i don't have the experience, but the irony of this whole situation is that tongiht CBS news had a report on how chinese are trying to leave the country because they hate it there.Some mean force huh? lol.... Well anyone i am very sorry for everythign i did.. i don't feel that kicking me off of somethign that i enjoyed so much is the answer... but its in the eye of the beholder now isnt' it?
I had fun while it lasted ...... HOOYAH to all of those who serve.....
DEMO out...."

[Jack Lutz]

Demopup has previously begun flaming wars, a long time ago. And now he is using profanity and talking about things which are immature and inappropriate, to say the least.
i.e., "Fuck the guy you mentioned...... yeah i was born after veitnam but i sure as hell know about it..... and those dirty slimy useless pigs on the hill couldn't pick a god damn trail and travel down it..... we could have whipped those dirty bastards in time to eat a healthy lunch and go back home.... but every damn time we gained ground the fat lard asses in the damn capital said give it up and take a few steps back.... "
So he "enjoys posting" here? Enjoys posting some pretty vulgar stuff, huh?

Trying to start a flamewar here and your PREVIOUS experience here (cough samething happened cough) is why you were removed. We apologize for anyone who may be offended that we ban people who act like this in a group of people who like to have a real discussion.


------------------
Jack Lutz
SOC Admin/Webmaster
ICQ- 31472206

Post topic title ATTN: ADMIN or ICQ me if you have a problem/suggestion.

[JSOCMarine]

Inexperience and lack of experience are to be expected of the young folks on this board. In turn, the old salts (and not so old salts) are expected to be patient and serve as mentors to the youngsters.

But the belligerence, combativeness and insulting comments made by this kid crossed the line. Something tells me that he is going to be a real problem for some NCO down the line.

Good call Tom. He had to go. Semper Fi.

[Mountaineer]

Ok, lets get back on track .......basically everyone agrees China is preparing for war..So where do you see it being fought? Does China test waters and American commitment by launching assault against Taiwan? What about a "Red Dawn" frontal attack on US mainland? Not very probable yet as they don't really have the means to get their millions of troops here, plus I would think American soil would be tuff for any country to take as we have the advantage of being armed as citizens. Do they start in europe and suck us into that? I'm trying to envision where the battle ground would be but I can't see any distinct advantage for China as of yet.... but whoever said bide your time I think hit the nail on the head....they're waiting for the moment....so where might be the battle ground of the future? Guys.......?

[Snake]

If China can sucker us into a Land War in Asia, we lose. The only way -they- can get to -us-, is if the Pacific Fleet is on the bottom. Then, they could come in through Alaska, taking -massive- casualities in the process, even in summer.
If they elect not to go after us directly, without the PACFLT to mess with them, they could swallow up the rest of Asia without much problem. Japan's reliance on us for big league defense is a bad thing for them. China could make a go of an airborne and amphib invasion of Japan pretty easy, as it isnt as fortified as Taiwan. The JSDF is pretty much a paper tiger, albeit a sophisticated one, for now. They need to pump some ash into high firepower. Maybe a couple of Air Assault or Naval Infantry divisions, or more fighter wings....
China might go after Asian Russia, but the Russians just might give em the Nukes if they cant hold....

Snake
25th ID(L)

[veil]

All i can say about this is that it frightens me to death, even though i dont live in the states.

And Z, i wish more people were like you man. You hit the nail right on the head with every word you type. Z for president, seriously.

-Veil

[reconsweden]

First of all, Demopup is the kind of person who I would never have in my squad, it´s those kind of people who get the good soldiers killed...

Now, I was wondering if anyone thought of that Russia might support China should the push become a shove and that the use of nukes would be likely to trigger WW3. Before you say anything about Russias military capability, know that they have increased their defence budget by 50%(!) for this year...

BTW:Good call Tom, those kinds of people doesn´t belong here either.


A soldier who doesn´t underestimate anyone or anything

[Snake]

Russia: A -lot- of that spending will go towards trying to defray the cost of the Chechnya adventure. More will go towards keeping the armaments industry alive, by making back payments. Some will go towards holding off a military coup by pissed off officers.

And as for Russia helping China....
Unless they really,really, really wanna stick it to the West, I doubt it. They have got to know China wants Irkutsk and Siberia.
Stranger things have been done by the russians though...

Snake
25th ID(L)

[alexander]

if anyone has watched the news, russia is trying to reconnect to china to be a counterballance to the us. also in one of the political science journals, china has a new war plan calling for the use of geurilla warfare similar to vietnam. so we should just watch our backs in the future.

[SpecOpNightfall]

To DemoPup:
Sorry I didn't respond sooner, I've been busy. First, I don't think you understand what I meant. I was saying that if China came at us in a mass tactic way with infantry, we'd be in a whole new world of trouble. However, if it was a war fought mainly behind the scenes (and what war isn't?), then our spec ops would absolutely dominate the game. We have the best in the world, hands down. Not to say other countries don't have some damn good stuff, too. Oh, and that thing about my pride in my military and my country . . . don't underestimate it. I'm not going to turn this into a flame war (too late), but we'll see who makes it. Anyone can say anything before hand. It's another matter entirely to see who does as they say.
To everyone other than Demo:
How likely does everyone think it is that China would attempt an invasion of North America (USA) and what do you think the civilian public would do in response? Take up arms (hey, stop laughing:-))?

[This message has been edited by SpecOpNightfall (edited 02-08-2000).]

[norm]

Come on guys, demopup is just a high-school kid, and his posts are not terrible, not nearly as bad as Deepshit, I mean Deepsand. Hey, I'm just a little older myself. He's just misguided, and I think that he won't make the same mistakes again considering the scathing replies he's got from you all. I know this is the China thread but I just would like to post this. I personally believe he should be let back on the forum.

norm

[This message has been edited by norm (edited 02-08-2000).]

[ROTCadet]

I don't know if this has been struck upon yet but what about that old saying, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Not that we are "enemies" of Russia but as of late relations have not been the best, especially over the invasion of Chechnya. You also have to consider(since I saw earlier posts about this, some weren't all that great or thought out)that both Russia and China had to deal with invading forces, Germany and Japan. Mao took a group of ragtag farmers to help defeat one the greatest armies at the time. The chinese have been fighting far longer than we have and Sun-Tzu's "Art of War" is one of the top books for young officers to read according to the Joint Chiefs of Staff list. The Russians were fighting with outdated equipment, poorly trained troops and not so good commanders early in the war. Yet within a matter of years were able to drive out the most powerful offensive army of its time. A Russian/Chinese combined offensive, however improbable, could still be a possibility and a dangerous threat. Hell even last months National Geographic pointed the fact out that both were trying to renew ties to ane another. Russian troops are no strangers to the weather and I don't see that as being an impeding factor for an assault through Alaska and Canada. A combined airborne/amphibious assault on a few locations throughout the Pacific(mainly Japan) would leave us in serious disposition. Granted moves would have to be made quickly to reinforce these positions and to bog down PACFLT. This would leave them a relative free zone to move troops and supplies around in. Ok I've ranted long enough, please feel free to comment or critisize.

Sean

[Doctor Evil]

All of these complicated replies about what to do with a militarily aggressive china are off mark. If china wants war with the west, we should not give them the time of day. We should just push the button and nuke them. It is very simple and easy.

[VMI_Marine]

For those of you who are more adept at International Relations, do you think China would wage a total war with the goal of destroying the US completely, or will they have limited objectives, like something along the lines of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere? If it's the former, I think it'll be an extremely bloody war, but one that we could possibly win. However, I don't think that, given the American public's usual lack of support for drawn out conflicts, we could win the latter at all, unless the ChiComs were to pull something like the attack on Pearl Harbor, which would throw the US completely behind the war effort. Any thoughts?

[veil]

Personally, i cant find one single reason why China should attack the US directly. However, they will probably go for countries like taiwan & the like. If that happens, the west should better stay away from it cause it'll be an instant vietnam replay.

-Veil

[z]

Just want to point out again that China is at WAR right now. My question to all of you is how to best counter the Communists attack?

Here is something that knight77 got of the wire. I thank him for taking the time to get this stuff.

And gentelmen if you want to see how far the Chinese campaign has progress. I suggest that you read some intresting stories in the Vancouver Sun & Provice news papers. These are Canadian papers. Look up keywords Mounties, Embaisies, Organised crime. You will be very supprised at what you will find. And believe me, it is not even half of it.

The following comes of the wire via Knight77.

PLA Revises the Art of War


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By J. Michael Waller
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

‘Asymmetrical’ warfare – terrorism, computer hacking, economic sabotage, assassination of U.S. citizens – is the Chinese military’s strategy to defeat the United States.

Should U.S. financiers whose trading adversely affects Chinese “red-chip” companies be assassinated? China’s People’s Liberation Army, or PLA, is discussing the concept. Should Beijing covertly fund political-influence operations in the United States? A new PLA book openly asks the question. Facing a potentially huge nuclear-weapons buildup as well as an even bigger high-tech conventional-arms race to reach parity with the United States and Russia, members of the echelon of senior colonels who will be among tomorrow’s PLA flag officers are looking beyond the nuclear age to a new and more stealthy form of war.”
The book, titled Unrestricted Warfare, is part of a larger effort within the PLA to develop a means of challenging the United States through “asymmetry” — not by trying to match the United States missile for missile, but by turning the strength of China’s adversaries against themselves as a judo artist subdues a larger, stronger foe. “Understanding and employing the principle of asymmetry correctly allows us always to find and exploit an enemy’s soft spots,” PLA senior Cols. Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui write in their 1999 book. They say they got the idea for the book during the 1996 Taiwan Strait crisis when Beijing stood by helplessly as two U.S. aircraft-carrier groups made a show of force during Beijing’s mock missile attack on Taiwan. Insight has obtained a CIA translation of the volume.
Unrestricted Warfare, according to a CIA commentary, “proposes tactics for developing countries, in particular China, to compensate for their military inferiority vis-à-vis the United States during a high-tech war.” Accordingly, “Hacking into Websites, targeting financial institutions, terrorism, using the media and conducting urban warfare are among the methods proposed.” In an interview with the official daily of the Chinese Communist Party youth league, the 44-year-old Qiao said, “The first rule of unrestricted warfare is that there are no rules, with nothing forbidden.”
The book implies that the infrastructure for such warfare should be built and in place well in advance of any possible military confrontation. “From this point on, war will no longer be what it was originally,” the colonels write, but will be unrecognizable as it is waged in the heart of American society. “Does a single hacker attack count as a hostile act or not? Can using financial instruments to destroy a country’s economy be seen as a battle? Did CNN’s broadcast of an exposed corpse of a U.S. soldier in the streets of Mogadishu shake the determination of the Americans to act as the world’s policeman, thereby altering the world’s strategic situation?”
The colonels have laid an intellectual framework for such warfare with high-level sponsorship in the Chinese military and the ruling Communist Party. “The PLA has placed special emphasis on the modernization of its info-war capabilities, in accordance with the emphasis on information dominance in the classic book Art of War by Sun Tzu,” according to Al Santoli, editor of the China Reform Monitor bulletin. “The rationale for this approach,” Santoli says, is articulated in Unrestricted Warfare. “The PLA decided it cannot match the United States in conventional weapons. Instead, it is emphasizing development of new information and cyberwar technologies and viruses to neutralize or erode an enemy’s political, economic and military information and command-and-control infrastructures,” according to Santoli.
Much of the debate is out in the open. The PLA is encouraging officers to think more about unrestricted warfare in general and information warfare in particular. Last year it also published a companion work, Introduction to Information Warfare, “as part of its integrated combined operations for fighting future wars,” Santoli says. The book “was approved by the PLA General Staff Department and the powerful Central Military Commission,” and was recommended for reading by the PLA newspaper Jiefangjun Bao.
The PLA authors are explicit in Unrestricted Warfare, arguing that China can outmaneuver U.S. high-tech sensors, electronic countermeasures and weaponry by employing different methods entirely. “If the attacking side [i.e., China] secretly musters large amounts of capital without the enemy nation being aware of this at all and launches a sneak attack against its financial markets,” they write, “then after causing a financial crisis, buries a computer virus and hacker detachment in the opponent’s computer system in advance, while at the same time carrying out a network attack against the enemy so that the civilian electricity network, traffic-dispatching network, financial-transaction network, telephone-communications network and mass-media network are completely paralyzed, this will cause the enemy nation to fall into social panic, street riots and a political crisis.”
Or so the PLA hopes. Unrestricted Warfare calls for widening the very idea of warfare to nearly every aspect of political, economic, cultural and social life in Western countries. The elegant CIA translation reveals an extremely well-reasoned approach and a profound understanding of the U.S. military, the U.S. political and economic systems and American popular culture.
Unrestricted warfare, the PLA colonels write, “means that all means will be in readiness, that information will be omnipresent and the battlefield will be everywhere. It means that all weapons and technology can be superimposed at will, it means that all the boundaries lying between the two worlds of war and nonwar, of military and nonmilitary, will be totally destroyed.”
While paying great respect and open admiration for the far-superior U.S. weaponry, logistics and military doctrine, the authors believe China could defeat the United States on the new battlefield. “Viewed from the performance of the U.S. military in Somalia, where they were at a loss when they encountered [warlord Mohamed Farah] Aideed’s forces, the most modern military force does not have the ability to control public clamor and cannot deal with an opponent who does things in an unconventional manner,” the colonels argue. “On the battlefields of the future, the digitized forces may very possibly be like a great cook who is good at cooking lobsters sprinkled with butter, but when faced with guerrillas who resolutely gnaw corn cobs, they can only sigh in despair.”
So the weaker side indeed can defeat the United States, the PLA colonels maintain. U.S. military thinking, they argue, has not kept pace with the amazing leaps in military technology. “The Americans have not been able to get their act together in this area. This is because proposing a new concept of weapons does not require relying on the springboard of new technology, it just demands lucid and incisive thinking. However, this is not a strong point of the Americans, who are slaves to technology in their thinking.”
Americans, in the Chinese colonels’ view, are too wedded to “weapons whose immediate goal is to kill and destroy.” In unrestricted warfare, “there is nothing in the world today that cannot become a weapon.” So the war should be brought into every aspect of American life: “As we see it, a single man-made stock-market crash, a single computer-virus invasion or a single rumor or scandal that results in a fluctuation in the enemy country’s exchange rates or exposes the leaders of an enemy country on the Internet can be included in the ranks of new-concept weapons. A new concept of weapons provides direction for new-concept weapons, while the new-concept weapons give fixed forms to the new concept of weapons. With regard to the flood of new-concept weapons, technology is no longer the main factor; the true underlying factor is a new concept regarding weapons.”
This argument gives new urgency to those in the United States who are pressing for greater vigilance of Communist Chinese penetration of the United States stock and bond markets. Roger W. Robinson, who served on President Reagan’s National Security Council and now chairs the William J. Casey Institute at the Center for Security Policy, has been behind a transparency initiative to allow U.S. investors to know what their pension funds and mutual funds might be financing in China (see “China Cashes In,” Dec. 20, 1999).
Unrestricted Warfare, in Robinson’s view, “should give pause to those who believe that China’s integration into global financial and trading systems is an entirely benign and civilian development.” It likens currency speculator George Soros to Saudi terrorist Osama bin Laden, the late Colombian cocaine kingpin Pablo Escobar and the Japanese Aum Shinri Kyo cult that in 1998 attacked a Tokyo subway with sarin poison gas. Soros is named at least a half-dozen times as one who has waged “financial warfare” and “financial terrorism” on East Asia. Financiers such as Soros, the colonels suggest, could be legitimate targets of assassination.
Contrary to the conspiratorial worldview fostered by one-party systems such as that in China, the PLA colonels recognize that individual speculators and other nongovernmental actors are indeed independent and not necessarily agents of Western capitalism or appendages of the U.S. government. Such individuals and groups, they say, are threats in their own right: the “nonprofessional warriors.” And they must be dealt with.
“This person is not a hacker in the general sense of the term, and also is not a member of a quasimilitary organization,” the colonels argue. “Perhaps he or she is a systems analyst or a software engineer, or a financier with a large amount of mobile capital or a stock speculator. He or she might even be a media mogul who controls a wide variety of media, a famous columnist or the host of a TV program. His or her philosophy of life is different from that of certain blind and inhuman terrorists.” But they might as well be the same: “Who can say that George Soros is not a financial terrorist?”
The colonels blame Soros for an attack on the Chinese economy by causing a run on “red-chip” stocks — companies listed on the Hong Kong stock market but controlled by Communist Chinese interests. “The main protagonist in this section of the history book will not be a statesman or a military strategist; rather, it will be George Soros. … After Soros began his activities, [Taiwan President] Lee Teng-hui used the financial crisis in Southeast Asia to devalue the New Taiwan dollar, so as to launch an attack on the Hong Kong dollar and Hong Kong stocks, especially the ‘red-chip stocks.’” In such a case, the PLA officers argue, why not assassinate people such as Soros? The question is explicit: “When protecting a country’s financial security, can assassination be used to deal with financial speculators?”
The colonels appear to endorse the idea of the “traditional terror war,” such as the bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania by Saudi terrorist bin Laden. “The advent of bin Laden-style terrorism has deepened the impression that a national force, no matter how powerful, will find it difficult to gain the upper hand in a game that has no rules.”
But bin Laden’s terrorism doesn’t go far enough, the colonels argue. Bombings, kidnappings, assassinations and hijackings “represent less than the maximum degree of terror” against the target. “What really strikes terror into people’s hearts is the rendezvous of terrorists with various types of new, high technologies that possibly will evolve into new superweapons.” The casualties from Aum Shinri Kyo’s sarin nerve-gas attack “accounted for just a small portion of the terror,” according to the PLA officers. “This affair put people on notice that modern biochemical technology had already forged a lethal weapon for those terrorists who would try to carry out the mass destruction of humanity.”
Such thinking, experts say, provides an intellectual framework for Beijing’s sale of technology to make weapons of mass destruction to regimes supporting terrorism.
The book argues that it is better to control than to kill. “Technological progress has given us the means to strike at the enemy’s nerve center directly without harming other things, giving us numerous new options for achieving victory, and all these make people believe that the best way to achieve victory is to control, not to kill.… The approach of using uncontrolled slaughter to force the enemy into unconditional surrender has now become a relic of a bygone age.”
Sowing fear and uncertainty in military and civilian ranks will become increasingly important weapons in unrestricted war, the colonels conclude. “We can create many methods of causing fear which are more effective” than killing. “Even the last refuge of the human race — the inner world of the heart — cannot avoid the attacks of psychological warfare. There are nets above and snares below, so that a person has no place to flee.”
The PLA authors see the United States as vulnerable to such unrestricted warfare. The U.S. military is culturally unequipped to deal with the problem, they argue; “they have never taken into consideration and have even refused to consider means that are contrary to tradition and to select measures of operation other than military means.” The United States, the Red Chinese officers say, should be better prepared: “What is surprising is that such a large nation unexpectedly does not have a unified command structure to deal with the threat

[baboon]

Well these Chinese colonels might have some ideas about how to subvert a country but I don't think they show any understanding of American or Western culture in general. Subverting a country is all very well and good but to actually take it over you need the support, passive or active, of the majority of the population, and I don't see them getting that anywhere. The Soviets won the Russian Civil War because the populace thought things would be better than under the Czar.(and in a few ways- education, health services- they were). The Nazis got into power in because the German economy and national pride were in ruins.( BTW Hitler's economic " miracle" was built on loans that couldn't be paid back- he HAD to go to war). Most of the countries the Chinese would wish to take over do not have such severe problems and, more importantly, very little chance of the local population being very keen to help the Commies. Of those that do have serious problems- well try selling their " Party Line" to any of the serious Moslem countries and see how far you get. If they ever do try any of this " subversion" stuff- I feel sorry for any Chinese immigrants or people of Chinese descent because they will be treated like anyone in Moscow now who looks vaguely Chechen. The fact is that if you look through history the only people that can " subvert" a country is its own population.

[z]

How will you know the difference between subversion and people just exercising their rights?

Do you think that it was a Chinese company that sold the the guidance system for the curse missile to the PLA?

Was it the Chinese government that sent US military advisors to teach the chinese Army how to coordinate artillery, air support and ground troops?

Our blind greed is our undoing! And then can anyone show me any company, that is not owed by the Chinese, that has made a dime in China?

Simply pathetic. We our just simply to stupid to understand the threat and consequently have not defense.

Just something to remember, Sun Tzu was Chinese!

I would not worry to much about being Chinese as I would about not being Chinese. They do not have laws about race crimes in China. Hell, they do not even have racial problems in China. At least not according to the Chinese. They have come up with a very simple solution to that problem. Kill the men, and have the women bare Chinese babies.

The United States to the Chinese is nothing but a bothersome parasite. They plan to cut it off from the world and feed it the tools to destroy itself.

China has been dealing with the problems of absorption of religions, cultural conflicts, language differences for thousands of years. They have muslims living in the country right now. Unlike the West the problem is minor. Why? Because if it was a problem they would simple just kill every male muslim there was, then after rapping and beating, sell the women into slavery.

Oh you did not know that China still has a slave trade?

Z

[Ursula]

RE: Women making our military "soft"

Women may not be allowed to serve in combat arms roles, but we are allowed to train others for them. Good luck to you DemoPup and SolidStrike when you graduate from high school some day and enlist in the military. Your enthusiasm is commendable. I hope your knowledge of military practices and operations catches up. If you do make it into one of the SOF groups and you end up here in the northwest for training, the "soft" courses I teach should be a piece of cake for you. he he he

-U

[SolidStrike]

A survival instructor, eh? Good for you. I guess you're one of those G.I. Jane types (not said offensively). I bet you do a good job in what you do, but what I meant is that the majority can't handle it and aren't made for what it takes to be in war.

[Ursula]

> I guess you're one of those G.I. Jane
> types (not said offensively).

GI Jane is a fictional character from a bad movie. I'm just a normal woman who happens to have a job teaching folks how to save their butts in desparate situations.

> I bet you do a good job in what you do, but what I meant is that the majority can't
> handle it and aren't made for what it takes to be in war.

You're right, in a sense. Since women aren't trained for combat, there's no doubt that they're not prepared for it. If you prevent any portion of a class from learning something, then no, they won't be prepared for whatever it is they're not allowed to train for.

As for hacking it, you just don't know what someone can do until you give them the opportunity. It's presumptious to say someone can't handle something without giving them a chance. Should women have that chance? That's another discussion entirely.

-U

[This message has been edited by Ursula (edited 02-10-2000).]

[SolidStrike]

Bah,I didn't think GI Jane was a bad movie. But anyway...

All you said was right though. So who do you train? SEALs and stuff...or...?

[ROTCadet]

I'm thinking USAF survival instructor is what she is and they know their job well. PJ/CCT recruits attend the 2.5 week course so that says something. Also in the last ECO-Challenge there was a woman instructor from this course who was on the Air Force team with 3 PJ's. Some smart guy is gonna say that they were disqualified but whoever does were you out there hacking it in the snow. If women can do the job then they can serve with me anytime. They want the chance give it to'em. If they are as good or some are better more power to'em.

Sean

[Ursula]

Civilian instructor, joint civilian/DoD work with all branches/all teams. No,not the 336th out of Fairchild.

-U

[This message has been edited by Ursula (edited 02-10-2000).]

[SOTICgrad]

Ursala

Hmmm....bet it's near that "Nasty" O course. Maybe there's an upper echelon guy named Jay there. Just a guess mind you. <BSEG>

[SOTICgrad]

Ursula

Sorry about the spelling

[z]

Thanks for the info. Now perhaps you might have something to say about the topic we have been discussing. If by chance you do not and you instead would like to talk about women in the Military, may I suggest that you start another topic folder.

Organization, focus keeps a soldier alive. It also marks the difference between music and noise. If we do not discipline ourselves to organize and focus our thoughts we will not have discussions but just meandering arguments that create nothing but noise.

The topic about "China preparing for War", is important to me. I fear that it is not important to many others. I am deeply concerned about the West ability to protect democracy. I fear that the Chinese Communists are more serious about their commitment to world domination, than the West is about protecting human rights or even the growth of democratic ideals in Less developed countries.

I ask those of you that have taken the time to read this thread to participate in this discussion. Please research and bring News articles that you find that are relevant to this topic. So that we all may discuss the level of threat and possible solutions to this pressing issue.

Communism is not dead neither is Fascism.

Sun Tzu was Chinese!

Z

[bmf]

Ursula

Does the name Harless ring a bell?

[Snake]

Personally, if China comes out swinging, there are 4 places you do -not- want to be:
Taiwan
Japan
Korea
Australia/New Zealand

It'll get rrrrreal interesting if China developes a long-range Paradrop capacity....


Snake
25th ID(L)

[RKW]

Isn't North Korea a communist nation, and wouldn't they side with China? Maybe this is a dumb idea, but North Korea might support China in the idea that they would get a shot at South Korea. Two communist nations with a similar disliking or hatred for the U.S. could become allies. What about Russia? I heard Putin(sp?) made some deals with the communists. Not to say that Russia is going back to communism, but both Russia and its leaders were prosperous under communism. What does everyone else think of Russia and North Korea?

RKW

[pn]

RKW, take a look at world history. Ideology is rarely(actually, I might say close to never)a consistent predictor of a nation's foreign policy.

Also, Russia was most certainly not prosperous under communism. Cronyism and patronage kept Party Officials more comfortable than the average Joe, but the country as a whole lived in horrendous conditions. Consider this: the Mk1 Mod0 Party official had living conditions roughly corresponding to lower middle or upper lower class in America, and they were the <i>big</i> dogs on the block.

But at least they had nukes...or so the reasoning went.

-pn

[This message has been edited by pn (edited 02-11-2000).]

[ZeroG]

So you suppose N. Korea, Russia, and China Vs
The world? Talk about Triple Entente part 2.
Certainly a very scary situation. But i have my doubts about Russia entering in any wars against the US. Especially when we are already flooding that country with western ideology already. Oh...and i doubt flooding China with anything western will work. Didnt they just recently ban the cartoon network?

[knight77]

I guarantee that if China engaged in a Conventional operation/offensive campaign, the North Korens would lauch their "Liberation of the Oppressed Capitalistic South from the oppression of the Yankees and the puppets they Control in Seoul". This would be a perfect opportunity that could not be passed up. The US would be totally overwhelmed in countering a scenerio of this nature. Of course at the same time there is going to erupt another conflict against on of our allies. It could be in Europe or the Middle East. At this point in time we will not be able to counter a campaign of this type w/ the forces we have, the state of readiness that exists, and the public support (the general ignorance if you may)that we have. Im sorry to say this, but at this stage of the game we cant win unless things here drastically change.

[Snake]

My theory is this:
The US Armed Forces are only ever ready to fight the -last- War. We went into the WWII era with an Army and Navy ready to fight WWI, we went into Vietnam with an Army ready to fight WWII, and went into the Gulf with one ready to fight WWIII(okay, that one worked out pretty well). Right now the Army is thinking Battalions and Brigades, instead of Divisions and Corps. Good for peacekeeping, B-A-D for a land war in Asia. China has 3 times as many Divisions as we have Brigades. At that level, quantity has a quality all it's own. Plus, Serbia aside, no war is going to be won from the Air, especially not one with China(and friends). We have 10 active duty Combat Divisions, 17 Enhanced Readiness Brigades(Guard), and 8 Guard Divisions. The AD Divisions are ready to go, assuming provided transport. The ER Brigades can be rolling hot in 30 days. The Guard Divisions, 90 days, minimum. Of the 10 AD Div.'s, none have full size Brigades. Most Brigades now only have 1-2 Batts. Most conservative estimates say we can generate a new Division from cadre and draftee's in 12-18 months. Uh-oh.......

Snake
25th ID(L)

[z]

Yes I agree with you all what you are saying. but I really do not think that the Russians and the Chinese could ever be allies for very long. The idosyncrasies of their cultural behavior leads to very intense social discourse between these to cultural groups. But the fact that Russia had been attacked from the East and held under Mongol rule for over 300 hundred years has had an incredible impact on their social outlook. China is a historical enemy of Russia and lays claim to a lot of territories that the Russians call theirs. Further, The Chinese view Russia as just another foreign power that has brought great shame to their homeland. It is true that all is fair in love and war but given the right circumstance these two countries would love to have a go at each other. You know that on their borders with each other that they do shot at each other. Chinese bandits have been know to kill a few Russian border patrol people.

As for Korean issue. Yep North Korean relies on China.

What I think is that China will not move against any Western friendly states except of course for Taiwan. China is moving slowly. First shipping, then trade markets, next long reach costal missiles. This has been archived already. It is questionable if a CBG could get into striking distance of the mainland without being sunk or at least so badly damaged that it could not function. Score one for the Chinese.

I think now China will look at strengthening its influence in South East Asia and the North Eastern parts of Russia. South East Asia for oil, rubber and of course food. North Eastern parts of Russia for coal, minerals and timber. I think that China will attack Vietnam to secure the Spartlan Straights and to give its military an opportunity to bloody themselves before taking on Taiwan. Politically it is a great way to influence Taiwan. Strategically it secures oil and Shipping. Tactically it gives their military live training in Modern War Fair. And the best part of the whole thing is nobody will say a dam thing because Vietnam has very few friends. I believe that the Communists will do this as soon as they gain membership to the WTO.

China will not strike where we are strong or seen to be strong. China will continue to insure that high grade heroin reaches all counties not under its control. This I think, they view as a much better way of taking on the West than direct confrontation on the battle field. The spread of disease and secondary infection is a great way to destroy an enemy. If the blood supply can be so contaminated that it becomes unusable, a battle field injury that might have meant 3 or 4 weeks of convalescing now means death. Or instead the use of contaminated blood so you die in 5 years. What do you think the impact on the moral of the troops would be if they could not trust the medical people? And how will the Medical people stop infections when all their antibiotics are proven useless against new virus strains? Health care and Drug addiction is where the West is weak at home.

Z

[z]

Snake,

You did it again. You pointed out some very serious planning issue.

Too many people think that the cold war is over. What they simple do not realize is that China has only just begun its war.

I must admit that the Show "The end of the Cold War" produced by Jane Fondas Husband Ted Turner did a great job in getting everyone to believe that it is all just history now.

I truly believe that if we end up on the battle field that they will just steamroller the West.

I think that it is imperative that the West demand that censorship by the communists has to be eliminated in it entirety as a prerequisite for any type of trade. Freedom of thought and expression is our greatest ally

Z

[ASD]

Hry Guys,

In my opinion China will first invade Taiwan or any country near so they can defeat the countries that will cause threat to them.

If they invade Taiwan or try to invade, hope it would be something like the Battle of Britain till it's allies come.

Take Care,
ASD

[Spotlight_Ranger]

I kind of ran through this thread quickly, disregarded Demopups poop. So I may have missed a few points and if I did I'm sorry.
1. It is correct that China is currently waging war, and we have so far failed to recognize it as such.
2. When China exports its technology to rogue nations it is a means of keeping the cauldron bubbling.
3. Ultimately the war will be for the rice bowl of Asia. China even by internal means has failed to keep its population down, and therefore has to do something.
4. They will also fight for Taiwan, regardless of the fact that Taiwan pumps 20 billion dollars into the Chinese economy every year. Its difficult to explain, but the Chinese, although culturally are the greatest capitalists in the world, they are pragmatic rather than practicalin the Communist Party.
5. Finally studies were done by the Soviets almost thirty years ago in preparation for a war with China. They estimated that if they used every nuke, every chem and bio agent against China. China would still field a fighting force of over a million people.

That was enough to give me pause. The best thing we have going is our blue water Navy. China wants that capability, and will not truly realize its status until it has one. The first time they did in-flight refueling it was cause for major major alarm throughout Asia.

[tdrogers21]

I keep on hearing people say that if China goes to war with the US than we are skrewed. That their numbers are simply to high. Knowone seems to mention the fact that to go to war with us is to go to war with almost all of our allies as well. In terms on numbers this sort of evens the playing feild doesn't it. Technologically we and our allies have always had the advantage. The only viable type of campaigne they seem to have is one biological/chemical/information warfare. If this is the case than China should be the last ones to worry about seeing as any one with a basic chemical lab and a computer could potentialy "wage war" with the US. Just an observation.

[This message has been edited by tdrogers21 (edited 02-12-2000).]

[Snake]

Not a valid point, as once a conflict reaches a certain scale, it becomes attrition warfare. If we crash every computer, bomb every SAM site, knock out their TV stations, you still have a 100 million+ Army waiting to get you. To actually end a war with another World Power, you have to invade and occupy him. Witness WWI/WWII. The only way we could -defeat- China, discounting viral warfare, would be to invade mainland China and subdue them. To do that kind of thing, you need Armor and Mech Infantry. We have three(3) Armor Divisions, we'd need 3 Armored -Corps- to even begin that game. This is not counting the fact that, before giving an inch, China would/will use their nukes. They arent like Israel and South Africa, making half a dozen warheads and hoping no one makes a fuss. They are engaging in full scale, industrial manufacture of a nuclear arsenal on a par with, or greater in quantitym than the US/NATO arsenal. Try fighting an expeditionary war in Asia, while trying to rebuild America after we get both barrels. BTW, our Continental Air Defense program is not even a fraction as effective as it was 12 years ago. All China would need is a squadron of Backfires, and bye bye Seattle.
There is reason to believ that, due to the Los Alamos incident, they may have rough parity in Missile Tech within 5-10 years. A technological edge doesnt count for much these days. Plus, aside from the British, the Aussies, and the Japanese, I doubt we'd get much help. Beijing is a tad scarier than Baghdad....

Snake
25th ID(L)

[Doctor Evil]

Most people dont know this but the nearby country of India has a population near that of China. India's population is projected to close in approximately to that of China's population in the next twenty to thirty years. Believe me, India has a very, very LARGE population, but this fact is not advertised much.

India could possibly be a very good ally against China should a war ever break out. Their geographical close proximity to China, combined with their absolutely huge population could make them a great friend to have.

[ASD]

Dr. Evil,

I agree with your opinion with India.

Take Care,
ASD

[z]

Now you know why I suggest that the West spend more time courting India Business. India is a Democracy, support Multiculturiam, Has a very large and growing middle class. This is not to say that there are not some very serious problems that need to be over come. But in the long term I think that it would be much easier for the West to develope a fair and honest relationship with India.

Counter Balance is important when dealing with nuts.

Z

[tdrogers21]

Snake,
Damn good point. I also would have to agree with Dr. Evil that India would make a great ally. Does anyone know anything about the state of the India's military? It also seems that with all the international economic interests vested in the United States that very few free, developed, capitalist countries would stand by and watch us get run over. Besides the international community knows that at the moment it is us China is attacking but sooner or later China's imperialist arm will reach them unless they act while they still have the advantage of fighting beside a super power.

[ZeroG]

Just a thought. If international forces do invade any part of China, it is the kind of country that will do a scorched earth policy.
It will be tough for sure.

[Spotlight_Ranger]

Another method is to encourage surrogate forceswithin China to keep them occupied. They would continue to stomp out isolated insurgencies, but it would keep them busy enough stomping around on their own turf to avoid looking elsewhere. They also had a slight problem on their far western border with Islamic elements a few years ago. Let them continue anger people in the far reaches where it is tough to control. We could also go back to encouraging the insurgency in Tibet. There are several ways to approach the problem. The key is to recognize that this conflict has already started.

[ASD]

Hey guys,

You know we might have help from China. As you know refugees want a better life and they would be willing to help do anything to go against China's goverment. For example some people in China have had thier right taken away, for example the religious group "Fao Lung GA," I think that's how you speel it.

My main point is that China has some enemies within, that can be our ally.

Take Care,
ASD

[ZeroG]

Encouraging insurgency is a good idead, but not as easy as it is in some countries. Everything is so damn controlled there. In fact they could slaughter or slowly assimilate the entire Islamic population in wet China, and we wouldnt know a thing about it. Not much news really comes out of China.

[JSOCMarine]

Some great insights on this string. I admit that I am not an expert or even remotely as knowledgeable on this particular topic as many of you are.

I do have have a friend, a serving field grade officer in the D.C. area who is an expert in the "China in 2025" arena.

He showed me a very detailed report that alluded to the fact that if the U.S. Navy continued to decline in amphibious shipping as planned, that in several years, we simply would not have the capability to project forces into the Pacific Rim in a timely fashion. The same is the case for strategic airlift capabilities.

In other words, if China did something that we felt compelled to respond to, we simply will not be able to project conventional forces into the theater quickly enough to make a diference at the Operational and Tactical levels. (we could not pull off Desert Storm today in regard to shipping and lift, much less the fact that the manpower situation is entirely different)

This of course, impacts our Strategic options, and leaves us with the ugly realization that we may have to use Weapons of Mass Destruction to deal with the situation, or just back off and let them have their way. We use WMD and who knows who else will get in the game? We sit back and let them have their way regionally and it will impact our way of life sooner rather than later. (See Hitler, Mussolini,Hirohito, and Hussein, and a thousand other historical examples for context)

For those of you who say, "Lets light them up", you must realize that they will also do their best to "light us up". Don't think that it has to be Chinese nuke-carrying bombers or subs approaching Seattle. The "suitcase nuke" is very much an option, as are biological agents introduced by operatives.

Another thing in the report was the fact that China sends many of its smartest folks to schools to learn technology and advanced scientific skills. These folks then return to China and man factories that now produce high-tech consumer goods.

This has two benefits; It produces goods that China is able to sell globally and thus fund their massive military expansion. And, it keeps a huge pool of workers,technicians, and scientists up to date in the latest skills, research,etc. These factories are constructed so that those that produce motherboards for PCs one day can be converted to build guidance systems to missile systems the next. This combined with the massive intelligence program that they have going to steal the results of other nations nuclear, military and technology programs and, well, get the picture?

As Americans, we generally think that we are the strongest nation on Earth, and that nobody can kick our ass. We also do not harbor ambitions of going out and taking over countries and eventually the world. It simply is not in our mind-set, mostly because of how we are raised in a democracy where laws prevent such action on a local level, much less promote it on a world level.

It is hard for Americans to realize that many other folks on this Earth cannot envision the future of their country without factoring in World dominance through economic and military war.

Get the notion of a fair fight out of your minds, it won't be one. And have no doubt, the fight has already begun, we just don't feel the punches yet.

I am not an alarmist, nor am I a Y2K kook or survivalist who plans on everything going to shit anytime soon. I have however, been around this world several times, as have others on this board. It's an ugly world out there, and for the most part, Americans are not aware of it. Most of them have never seen local folks fight each other to the death for the right to scavenge the garbage dump of American and Allied forces in Somalia, Bosnia, etc., because to them that dump represents a source of food and thus, survival. It' shocking to see.

If any of you don't believe that somewhere there is a young Chinese Intelligence analyst who's duties are to cruise internet boards such as this to glean information, you are simply being naive. Read about what went on with the Soviets during the Cold War. Ask yourself why the Chinese would not be doing the same to us right now.

Well, thats the full extent of my knowledge on this subject. Interested to hear your thoughts. Semper Fi.

[Snake]

Guys,
a good way for you to visualise the situation:

Now = 1938-ish.
Us = Great Britain/France
China = Nazi Germany

In that situation, the Germans were technologically inferior (fact:their best tank at that time wasnt nearly as good as the French and Czech stuff), and seen as little threat. However, they had -much- better doctrine and resolve. China could lobb 15 Divisions across the Border at Russia -tommorow-, Mongolia or into Korea. We couldnt launch an attack into -Mexico- without a weeks notice. That represents a failure of doctrine. Simple equation: Complacency = Defeat. I remember growing up at the Holy Loch, during the Cold War, when Reagan had the stick. If a squirrel scratched his ass in the Fulda Gap, we'd light him up. Remember when (West) Germany was one big Cantonment for NATO? Thats the kind of Total Force we require to put paid to China, Peoples Republic Of. By the way, anyone got an Order of Battle for the Japanese SDF?

Snake
25th ID(L)

[This message has been edited by Snake (edited 02-13-2000).]

[bmf]

One interesting aspect that hasn't really been touched on is the morale of the average Chinese grunt. Sure, it's easy for the high ranking officials to send off a million troops to die, but would their population support it? I really wonder just how much the average E-4 equivelant would be behind such an agressive unprovoked attack against the U.S. I'm really not sure if China shares in a "warrior mentality" of imperalist Japan (circa 1930's-40's).
On a side note, it's interesting wonder the American publics response to such massive casualties that would ensue.
Any insight?

[mike_m]

Taking in all your points, its easy to say that war could go either way, however if War happened at any level except cold China, according to Sun Tzu philosophy which is required doctrine for all officers, would release its nuclear arsenol.
Diplomacy has begun the most potent weapon not who has the smallest most deadly weapon issued to each grunt capable of blowing away half the planet.

May God have mercy on our souls for our own destruction lest we all come together as one.

[Jims]

Anyone interested in Chinese expansion/ plans for war should keep one eye on Xinjiang Province (pipeline currently under construction there will provide better fuel than the coal China is currently dependent on) and the other eye on the Spratley Islands (strategic choke point for Pacific sea routes). When the Uygurs revolt and the Philippines get cranky over the Spratleys, the region will be one major step closer to war.

note: I'm far from an expert, but these issues are largely ignored.

[Wrath_241]

If it happens oh well!! I know what I'll be doing!! Killing some communist bastards

[Cole]

I have read the posts and would like to offer my say on the matter...
Any conflict between China/US would be bad for the world period. Here are a couple of conclusions I have come to from everybody's contributions.
1) Siberia. China is having a hard time feeding itself and is running out of room fast. To China, Siberia is a possible "Lebensraum"; a goldmine of untapped resources and open space, not to mention strategically important as a border to the US. However, in my opinion, China would avoid an open attack. Considering the instability of the Russian government, an attack would corner the Russian's possibley iciting a coup by generals and/or a nuclear retaliation. I could see China utilizing its underworld connections to gain favor with the Gangster/governers of the new Russia, but no military activity in this region.
2) the Asia Co-prosperity Sphere. Although also crowded, Indochina is another area with untapped resources. If China moved in however, it would have a hell of a time. As I recall, the Vietnamese and the Chinese are not bedfellows; as the Viet's were Leninist and not Maoist. If China sent troops into South-East Asia, every rice farmer in Vietnam, Loas, Cambodia, Thailand, and Myanmar would give them an unbelievable headache; the same one experienced by the US. Can you imagine the CIA secretly backing the VC???
3) Korea, Japan, Taiwan. Speedbumps, nuff said...If the Chinese wanted, they, with the North Koreans would be in Seoul, Tokyo, and Taipei in a day.
4) India. If confrontation with China becomes immenant, India is an ally we cannot ignore. Still smarting from the Sino-Indian war in the Kashmir, India is a world power that is PO'ed with the Reds.
5) Military Forces. A tango with the Red's would be a costly one; just ask a Veteran of the Chosin Resovoir. With an army the size of Red China's, technical superority or superior training mean bunk. In Korea, entrenched grunts were gunning down swarms of Reds who were armed with only PITCHFORKS, only to realize, as the used their last rounds, that there were 3 Chinese divisions already behind them, having swarmed the surronding lines. I feel the key to keeping the Peoples Liberation Army in check is Naval superiority. Like a seen in a previous posting, airpower don't mean crap as they have enoug SAM's to destroy the Airforce 30 times over. However, if the CBG can keep the Chinese army out of the Water, we can have a fighting chance.
6) The Role of SPECOPS troops. In response to the idea presented by are not-missed friend Demopup (heaven-forbid this kid is given a gun!) Special Operations will not have an impact on the conventional battlefield with China, as they are not conventional troops. He cites the high kill ratio of the Teams in Vietnam; but (no disrespect to any Seals) this did not have any impact on the outcome of the war. Advocating military supremacy over China through special forces is like arguing that you can fight an Elephant with a scalpel. However, that scalpel can be used to take out the elephant's eye, or nose (you get the point). I believe that Special Forces will play a key role in closing down the main threat of a Sino-US conflice...the nukes. The minute we know China is going to lock horns with us, we should have every special forces team ready to deploy. Rangers, dropped in the back to take out Silo's. Seals, to the beaches to mop up the Silkwarms and keep the navy floating. The special forces, as a precision instrument, should be used as one.
7) The real enemy. I have become slightly offended by the talks of specifically mutated diseases designed to wipe out the Chinese gene pool. I have many friends who are of Chinese-origin but consider themselves first and foremost Canadians (Or American, I am Canadian by the way) We should recognize that war gestures are a response of the Chinese communist Party, which realizes it is loosing its grip of power to democracy and capitalism. Just think how virtal the US Special Forces Major of Chinese decent is going to be, when he is dropped with his team into the villages of China to teach the peasents that they are supporting a govenment that drives Mercedes Benz' while forcing them to wait in line for shoes. I think that this racial notion of the Chinese PEOPLE as the enemy is a dangerous idea and we should cease talking about it.
.....Whew, a bit long, but I needed to get that out. Thanks for letting me have my say and I would appreciate any constructive critism; and as a warrior-to-be, friendly advice.

[Cole]

I have read the posts and would like to offer my say on the matter...
Any conflict between China/US would be bad for the world period. Here are a couple of conclusions I have come to from everybody's contributions.
1) Siberia. China is having a hard time feeding itself and is running out of room fast. To China, Siberia is a possible "Lebensraum"; a goldmine of untapped resources and open space, not to mention strategically important as a border to the US. However, in my opinion, China would avoid an open attack. Considering the instability of the Russian government, an attack would corner the Russian's possibley iciting a coup by generals and/or a nuclear retaliation. I could see China utilizing its underworld connections to gain favor with the Gangster/governers of the new Russia, but no military activity in this region.
2) the Asia Co-prosperity Sphere. Although also crowded, Indochina is another area with untapped resources. If China moved in however, it would have a hell of a time. As I recall, the Vietnamese and the Chinese are not bedfellows; as the Viet's were Leninist and not Maoist. If China sent troops into South-East Asia, every rice farmer in Vietnam, Loas, Cambodia, Thailand, and Myanmar would give them an unbelievable headache; the same one experienced by the US. Can you imagine the CIA secretly backing the VC???
3) Korea, Japan, Taiwan. Speedbumps, nuff said...If the Chinese wanted, they, with the North Koreans would be in Seoul, Tokyo, and Taipei in a day.
4) India. If confrontation with China becomes immenant, India is an ally we cannot ignore. Still smarting from the Sino-Indian war in the Kashmir, India is a world power that is PO'ed with the Reds.
5) Military Forces. A tango with the Red's would be a costly one; just ask a Veteran of the Chosin Resovoir. With an army the size of Red China's, technical superority or superior training mean bunk. In Korea, entrenched grunts were gunning down swarms of Reds who were armed with only PITCHFORKS, only to realize, as the used their last rounds, that there were 3 Chinese divisions already behind them, having swarmed the surronding lines. I feel the key to keeping the Peoples Liberation Army in check is Naval superiority. Like a seen in a previous posting, airpower don't mean crap as they have enoug SAM's to destroy the Airforce 30 times over. However, if the CBG can keep the Chinese army out of the Water, we can have a fighting chance.
6) The Role of SPECOPS troops. In response to the idea presented by are not-missed friend Demopup (heaven-forbid this kid is given a gun!) Special Operations will not have an impact on the conventional battlefield with China, as they are not conventional troops. He cites the high kill ratio of the Teams in Vietnam; but (no disrespect to any Seals) this did not have any impact on the outcome of the war. Advocating military supremacy over China through special forces is like arguing that you can fight an Elephant with a scalpel. However, that scalpel can be used to take out the elephant's eye, or nose (you get the point). I believe that Special Forces will play a key role in closing down the main threat of a Sino-US conflice...the nukes. The minute we know China is going to lock horns with us, we should have every special forces team ready to deploy. Rangers, dropped in the back to take out Silo's. Seals, to the beaches to mop up the Silkwarms and keep the navy floating. The special forces, as a precision instrument, should be used as one.
7) The real enemy. I have become slightly offended by the talks of specifically mutated diseases designed to wipe out the Chinese gene pool. I have many friends who are of Chinese-origin but consider themselves first and foremost Canadians (Or American, I am Canadian by the way) We should recognize that war gestures are a response of the Chinese communist Party, which realizes it is loosing its grip of power to democracy and capitalism. Just think how virtal the US Special Forces Major of Chinese decent is going to be, when he is dropped with his team into the villages of China to teach the peasents that they are supporting a govenment that drives Mercedes Benz' while forcing them to wait in line for shoes. I think that this racial notion of the Chinese PEOPLE as the enemy is a dangerous idea and we should cease talking about it.
.....Whew, a bit long, but I needed to get that out. Thanks for letting me have my say and I would appreciate any constructive critism; and as a warrior-to-be, friendly advice.

[Cole]

I have read the posts and would like to offer my say on the matter...
Any conflict between China/US would be bad for the world period. Here are a couple of conclusions I have come to from everybody's contributions.
1) Siberia. China is having a hard time feeding itself and is running out of room fast. To China, Siberia is a possible "Lebensraum"; a goldmine of untapped resources and open space, not to mention strategically important as a border to the US. However, in my opinion, China would avoid an open attack. Considering the instability of the Russian government, an attack would corner the Russian's possibley iciting a coup by generals and/or a nuclear retaliation. I could see China utilizing its underworld connections to gain favor with the Gangster/governers of the new Russia, but no military activity in this region.
2) the Asia Co-prosperity Sphere. Although also crowded, Indochina is another area with untapped resources. If China moved in however, it would have a hell of a time. As I recall, the Vietnamese and the Chinese are not bedfellows; as the Viet's were Leninist and not Maoist. If China sent troops into South-East Asia, every rice farmer in Vietnam, Loas, Cambodia, Thailand, and Myanmar would give them an unbelievable headache; the same one experienced by the US. Can you imagine the CIA secretly backing the VC???
3) Korea, Japan, Taiwan. Speedbumps, nuff said...If the Chinese wanted, they, with the North Koreans would be in Seoul, Tokyo, and Taipei in a day.
4) India. If confrontation with China becomes immenant, India is an ally we cannot ignore. Still smarting from the Sino-Indian war in the Kashmir, India is a world power that is PO'ed with the Reds.
5) Military Forces. A tango with the Red's would be a costly one; just ask a Veteran of the Chosin Resovoir. With an army the size of Red China's, technical superority or superior training mean bunk. In Korea, entrenched grunts were gunning down swarms of Reds who were armed with only PITCHFORKS, only to realize, as the used their last rounds, that there were 3 Chinese divisions already behind them, having swarmed the surronding lines. I feel the key to keeping the Peoples Liberation Army in check is Naval superiority. Like a seen in a previous posting, airpower don't mean crap as they have enoug SAM's to destroy the Airforce 30 times over. However, if the CBG can keep the Chinese army out of the Water, we can have a fighting chance.
6) The Role of SPECOPS troops. In response to the idea presented by are not-missed friend Demopup (heaven-forbid this kid is given a gun!) Special Operations will not have an impact on the conventional battlefield with China, as they are not conventional troops. He cites the high kill ratio of the Teams in Vietnam; but (no disrespect to any Seals) this did not have any impact on the outcome of the war. Advocating military supremacy over China through special forces is like arguing that you can fight an Elephant with a scalpel. However, that scalpel can be used to take out the elephant's eye, or nose (you get the point). I believe that Special Forces will play a key role in closing down the main threat of a Sino-US conflice...the nukes. The minute we know China is going to lock horns with us, we should have every special forces team ready to deploy. Rangers, dropped in the back to take out Silo's. Seals, to the beaches to mop up the Silkwarms and keep the navy floating. The special forces, as a precision instrument, should be used as one.
7) The real enemy. I have become slightly offended by the talks of specifically mutated diseases designed to wipe out the Chinese gene pool. I have many friends who are of Chinese-origin but consider themselves first and foremost Canadians (Or American, I am Canadian by the way) We should recognize that war gestures are a response of the Chinese communist Party, which realizes it is loosing its grip of power to democracy and capitalism. Just think how virtal the US Special Forces Major of Chinese decent is going to be, when he is dropped with his team into the villages of China to teach the peasents that they are supporting a govenment that drives Mercedes Benz' while forcing them to wait in line for shoes. I think that this racial notion of the Chinese PEOPLE as the enemy is a dangerous idea and we should cease talking about it.
.....Whew, a bit long, but I needed to get that out. Thanks for letting me have my say and I would appreciate any constructive critism; and as a warrior-to-be, friendly advice.

[Spock]

Sorry, hit the Submit button by mistake, actual response is below.

[This message has been edited by Spock (edited 04-05-2000).]

[Spock]

Debt.

That's what it boils down to. We are swimming in it. And we have a stock market that many consider a bubble. And extremely dependent on our trading partners, the largest of which happens to be, you guessed it....China. What if someday they stopped all trade with us, and confiscated our industrial assets over there?? Company profits plunge, consumer goods dry up, access to their markets blocked, resulting in stock market plunge, lack of consumption, layoffs, bankruptcies....ie 1929. Pretty much certain economic collapse. Or they might use a suitcase nuke, biological, computer hack, you name it.

Though in some ways our technology makes us the greatest nation on earth, like someone said earlier here, it has made us soft, and dependent on that technology. Furthermore, that technology has make us all interdependent. A large enough trigger event, and the whole thing snowballs and spreads like a virus through the whole economy till it grinds to a halt. Gotta have tax dollars to make the wheels turn and the tanks fire, and they won't be there with millions out of work. So crash our economy, and you disable us militarily.

There aren't many who could be considered self-sufficient today, unlike the Depression when we were still mostly a nation of farmers. Except of course those y2k kooks and survivalists I would guess (and talking to them, that is what worries them the most, is the financial house of cards we are resting on, awaiting for the appropriate trigger, like y2k, market crash, or war). So a collapse would not only finanically deplete us, but physically significantly reduce the population, a situation that would take generations to remedy.

China, however is not dependent like we are. It could tighten it's belt and survive. Maybe lose 100 million people in the process, but they want to thin out the herd anyway. They have tons of natural resources, and what they don't have they can trade with their Asian neighbors. So, they don't need to take us on head to head, just modernize enough so that we are unable to effectively project our power into that region and stop them from doing whatever. Then at the same time provide the trigger event for economic collapse. Quotes from their officials recently pretty much verify this as their goal. They don't need to confront is militarily to win.

Their modernization is coming along well, not only from technology exchanges with Russia, but with what has either been stolen or handed to them from this country, which is some of our top stuff according to news articles. They have leapfrogged in 5 years what most thought they couldn't do in 20. Course they have billions of surplus trade dollars to grease the wheels too. We are financing our own defeat.

As the gentleman stated before, they are fighting unrestricted warfare, and if we continue to allow it, they can beat us without ever getting into a major land confrontation with us. It may be too late already.

[This message has been edited by Spock (edited 04-05-2000).]

[Doctor Evil]

If China wants to mess with the USA, all we gotta do is one thing. NUK'EM! That is all she wrote. Dont play games with those sneaky little bastards.