Berets for everyone!

[Ursula]

The article says this a morale-boosting idea. I'm sure getting to wear a beret will help thousands of soldiers forget about crappy pay and too many deployments. Ha!
-Ursula

Army's New Uniform Code Intended to Boost Morale

By Roberto Suro
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday , October 17, 2000

All U.S. Army soldiers – including the clerks and the cooks and not just Special Forces commandos and Rangers – will get to wear berets under a morale-building
moved to be announced by the Army command today.

In a speech set to be delivered this afternoon, Gen. Eric K. Shinseki, the Army chief of staff, will tell an Army convention that this "symbol of excellence" once
reserved for members of elite units will be made available to all soldiers as "a signal to the young that we are moving, we are changing."

Shinseki previewed his speech in an interview, saying the details of the new uniform code are still to be worked out and will not go into effect until next June.

What color berets?

That was one of the biggest questions pending late last night as the chief's speechwriters scurried to finish his presentation. The Rangers wear black berets. The
Special Forces wear green and the Airborne wear maroon. And those are the only berets the Army has at this point.

Shinseki said he certainly was not going to make those proud units change their headgear, so the question is whether one of them would have to share their beret
color with say, the chaplin assistants. Or will the Army have to come up with a another color altogether for regular units?

This is not a small matter given that the members of the elite units prize their berets as symbols of a hard-won honor.

Shinseki said the announcement will come in a speech updating the Army on a major reform initiative he launched last year at the same gathering, the annual meeting
of the Association of the United States Army. That address sparked widespread debate and not a little dissension within the Army when Shinseki said he thought the
Army would have to abandon its beloved tank treads in favor of wheels for armored units in the near future.

The wheels-versus-treads issue remains unresolved, and Shinseki said he was not going to break new ground on that subject today. Instead he undoubtedly will
launch what will become the berets-versus-caps debate.

© 2000 The Washington Post

[gear_guru]

Guys, this is really not very shocking. Former SMA McKinney was the project head for a similar move before he was convicted of sexual harrasment. At the time they were going to be brown for regular units. This is a pretty common practice with most of our allies.

[spectre]

Scene:
Cadet in back of message board waving arms wildly, screaming, "Ooo Ooo, what about me? Can I wear one too?"

Mo

"Just a Quarter-mile more."

[Mac679]

nice use of words first said by Kennedy in reference to the green beret for Special Forces
*just a future Infantryman who doesn't want to wear any beret unless it's black or green and Earned*
Mac

------------------
3 days and counting...

[gear_guru]

I am sure they are going to have to work out alot of issues before this happens. However, I know all of the studies were completed in 98.
It will be interesting to see how it is all resolved. Expect to see the current beret wearers all complain for about a month or so. Once they realize that all those folks are still just legs it will die down. Then they will announce who gets what color and there will be a zillion submissions to the Institute of Heraldry for new flashes.

[This message has been edited by gear_guru (edited 10-17-2000).]

[Jeff Rambo]

Shinseki needs to pull that damn tab off his attire ... I use to like the guy.

Maybe the beloved JCSC will slap some sense into him.

Sickening in so many ways in my humble opinion ...

- Out

------------------
w/ Regards,
Jeff Rambo

------------------
I Want A Four Man Team On A Midnight Run ...

[Jeff Rambo]

I can alrighty see how the lovely Eight-Deuce will accept the fact that Petro Specs will soon be wearing the Maroon Beret.

This of course being if they decide to adopt it, over a new color. And I seriously doubt Gen. Shinseki is ignorant enough to step on the shoes of the 75th nor SF and even think of allowing "others" to wear, respectively, the black or green berets.

- Gone Gone Gone. Sold!

------------------
w/ Regards,
Jeff Rambo

------------------
I Want A Four Man Team On A Midnight Run ...

[Snake]

Mac,
Spen an enlistment in an Infantry Battalion. You'll earn just about all you get.

By the way guys......Told ya so....

I'd have voted for Infantry royal blue for our beanies, buuuut, that currently has a somewhat negative connation...

Snake
25th ID(L)
Wearer of both Maroon
and "Sinai" Rust caps.

[SuaSponte]

Actually I just got an email from SOCOM PA verifying the Black beenie thing for the rest of the world.

[Kiva]

Do non-beret wearing soldiers think so highly of berets that their morale will be magically uplifted because they will get to wear one?

A "symbol of excellence." Now it will be an ordinary thing, and this is "morale building"?

What am I getting myself into...? The Army...

Kiva


[This message has been edited by Kiva (edited 10-17-2000).]

[Ler]

Let's make all the little legs happy. If this happens all the Tabbies will only wear PCs just like when support people were allowed to were Green Beanies. What a dumm-fuckin' idea..Ler..

[LRSC Grunt]

.

[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 10-18-2000).]

[gear_guru]

Hey guys just remeber...the beret doesn't make the man. I hate to paraphrase, but..If you are in it to wear a funny hat then you are in the wrong business.
Sua Sponte...I am totally taken aback that they are actually going to hand out black berets to the entire Army. Wow, that is unconcievable. I really expected them to adopt a standard "leg" color with different flaches for different branches.
And Ler, as it is now most team guys don't wear berets most of the time anyway. You know, they don't shade the eyes, are hot in summer, cold in winter and don't keep the rain off. In all reality what a crappy design for a hat.

[Tracy]

Speaking as one small BTDT in a big ol' stadium full of BTDTs:

Gen Shinsecki is applying the same principal we used to do to Guerillas: Give them something tangible (beret) that produces some espirit de corps, extra effort, etc. when you can't pay more or train more.

To paraphrase Napolean: "Give me a mile of colored ribbon, and I'll create an Army of Heroes". I'm here to tell you that we'd be speaking French if Nappy didn't get his dementia so soon...

I say FIDO, if it gives me better soldiers, let's do it. Because we damn sure are scraping the barrel with other perks with we can add.

But, I could be wrong. That's my one opinion on it.

[This message has been edited by Tracy (edited 10-17-2000).]

[javahedz]

Ooh ooh a new hat, now I can run further, fight harder and shoot straighter. My new beret just makes me feel all tingly and patriotic down to my tree huggin tippy toes.....NOT!!!!!

Screw all that and just give us more money, and hey, how 'bout pro pay to us 18D's, cuz we is smart 'n stuff.

------------------
Keep your powder dry
http://www.gogetemgear.com/

Dan

[jbrookins]

Damn I don’t want to sound like a whine ass but this is pure BS. Not because a hat makes a difference but because it’s the same approach the powers to be take to fix any problem. They won’t listen to the damn surveys or heaven forbid their troops and fix real issues. No, lets hand out some feel good bullshit. Hell, while we’re at it let’s make a tab for everybody too. No, lets not stop there we can hand out medals for just showing up. Wait the Air Force and Navy already do that. Well them and whoever in the hell is in charge of those tele-warriors on AFN. Fucking Typical

[Ted]

Shinseki's approach sounds just like the civilian's approach when it comes to falling test scores on the SAT. And that is: Just give'em more points for signing their name correctly. Morale problems? Just give'em a new hat. Fergit about all the other problems, such as lack of senior leadership listening to their troops, multiple back-to-back deployments, and all that other, hard to deal with stuff.

Oh, I forgot, I need to fall in line with the rest of the O's. "Look at the king's wonderful new clothes!"

[Snake]

I'm just relieved that we've now got an alternative to the G-cap. I've worn the beanies, and yes, they're cool. But, you dont wear em much. BTW, I would have minded it so much if we'd gone to the "Navy/MC" pattern G-cap. The floppy one, looks much neater. I will go on record as saying that the Beanies shouldnt be Black. Out of respect for the 75th. Ah well, above my paygrade...

Snake
25th ID(L)

[JOE-BOO]

I don't know that it is a bad idea or not.....but, this I do know....the soldiers in the "regular" Army deserve uniforms that accent thier effort....I would say that if berets are not used....something should be....these men (and women) need to understand that they are part of a fighting unit. One with pride in ALL its members....not just some who have chosen and earned one special path....that these elite personel are not different, but more Soldierly, and SOLDIERLY is the key word... they have what the others have plus....not that they are the only ones that matter or are elite. Perhaps we could show that being a good soldier is enough if you do your job with honor and dedication. That if you accel in competency you are worthy of respect also...not just the grunt world. It tends to work for our counter-parts in our little sister service. Imagine....for one moment....the Army actually wanting to show the world that we are all worthy of distinction...yes some MORE than others....be we are all charged with fighting and winning America's Wars...all of us....part of an organization that has a broader scope of Combat arms, combat support, and combat service-support than any other service. The Senior Service!!! The service that the public criticizes until needed...the one that is so broad that only small units get any credit with-in it. Perhaps it is time the Soldier becomes more than "Joe", perhaps it is time for us to rekindle our history, which by the way included berets in other units besides Rangers, Special Forces, and Airborne. Actually quite a while before they had them at all...Particularly the Cavalry..I am not in favor of the Whole Army having Black Berets....the Rangers are three-time volunteers and deseve distinction.

Perhaps we must build our strength at the foundation. Maybe, once in a while, we should remember that it is the strength of the stem of the spear that delivers and forces the tip through the prey. A strong stem keeps the force true and gives the momentum for the tip to pierce the most difficult of armor. We are great...just look in our history. Legs, remfs, and pogues have stepped up when the time came. remember that the first Rangers organized for Korea, which are the Direct desendents of our Modern Rangers, were not infantry...the war needed the infantry where they were....these Rangers were Combat Service-Support soldiers....that is right....Quarter-masters, Signal Corps, Ordinance.

I have to agree with Tracy for the most part...In my view his could prove good for the Army....make it unique....Lets face it, the PC looks like crap, that is why every other Soldier crushes it, or folds it differently. The way it is designed makes it unattractive. So high in the back makes it more likely to be worn farther back on the head like a ball cap so it does not stick up so high, which looks unprofessional. Being so short in the front makes wearing pin-on rank a pain. The short, hard plastic bill barely keeps sun and rain off your face and does not mold well. At-least a beret counter-acts a couple of these problems. A redesigned PC would be nice too. The Marine Corps is looking into making their uniform more unique...maybe we should be pro-active in bettering our Army. OUR Army has remained stagnate long enough....we should explore these ideas so we remain a credible fighting force as a whole in the public eye and in the hearts of OUR Soldiers. I will not talk shit on OUR Chief of Staff...I do not think he is in the pocket of Clinton or cut from that cloth. He is a good man who despite not always doing the popular or easy thing is working the current system to make a better Army. One that the Public Acknowledges, the Soldiers Love and Respect, and Our enemies fear. He is OUR champion and WE must stand by HIM. Now is a great time for the Army to get some pride as a whole and use it to foster Esprit de Corps that will last through the next hard times into OUR grand-children's time of service.
Some day Young people will join the Army because they want to be Soldiers, not just to be a Ranger, or an Airborne Soldier, or a Special Forces Soldier; not for the money or the education. That being a Soldier is a very honorable thing and our appearance reflects that. Not that we are the left-overs from the other services. No other Service is charged with so much yet given so little in return by way of Honors and Prestige. Time and Time again the Army has delivered for our country. It is the base that holds the military together. It is the Service that often goes in FIRST and always leaves last. The steady foundation that rarely gets a face lift.

Fine warriors are not unique to the Rangers and Special Forces.
Perhaps it is time to show OUR Soldiers that they are worthy of distinction from the other services. Maybe berets are not the most effective way, but it is a start. And bitching and moaning from those who already have berets will not help us accomplish this task...it only weakens our unity as SOLDIERS. I ask you to stop your redicule and public disdain for the decision. The "Regular" Army is proud of you, so perhaps you can quell your opinions long enough to support them. Besides, if increases Morale and helps to establish a Culture of Soldiers who are proud of THEIR ARMY, I can not protest.

I stand by our COS....he is an Honorable man on and off the battlefield who has shown himself not to bow down to the big defense contractors. He has begun to shift Soldiers out of support positions into Combat positions to firm up the force. Overall I trust him to what is right, even when I do not necessarily agree with everything he is doing.

At least he is doing.....

------------------

IT AIN'T THE
BARK...IT AIN'T THE
GROWL...ITS THE BITE THAT
HURTS
11ZULU

[This message has been edited by 11ZULU (edited 10-18-2000).]

[LRSC Grunt]

Wanna make me proud? Try putting a Republican in office! Try improving my living conditions! Give my unit more funding for training! What the fuck will a beret do? If it was on individual unit basis maybe a little good would come from it, but this will be army wide. What pride will a unit have without its own individuality?

[Baker]

Individual pride comes from within. From knowing you accomplished the task at hand. Knowing that you have met and overcome the objective, whatever it may have been. If a soldier is lacking that pride inside of them, no external feel-good prize will take it's place. It is nothing more than another band-aid solution from the current administration.

Yes, there is a distinction between those that wear the Beret and those who do not, as well there should be. Those that are (or were) awarded that special distinction deserve it as they have chosen a different path from their Military brothers. They go in harm's way more often, risk more and are expected (rightfully so) to meet a much higher standard than those with other specialties. There SHOULD be a distinction. They have separated themselves in both mind and body from other service members, and should dress accordingly.

EVERY job is important. The pride comes from doing your job well. Not because of a Beret, patch, medal or pin. These things should be given in RECOGNITION for an achievement, not as motivating factors FOR an achievement. I'll admit that I've only met a few Special Operations personnel, but those that I have met took that route because of their desire to EXCEL, to go above and beyond the set standard. THAT was their reward. The Beret/Trident was simply an outer representation of the inner qualities that each man possesses. To simply start handing those out to everyone amounts to nothing more than a slap in the face of those who rose to the occasion to EARN it.

If the government truly wants to improve morale, then give the Military a mission profile and administration they can actually trust and believe in. Reduce needless deployments, take care of your people. Have a Commander in Chief that supports soldiers and their families. Actually give a damn.

What a concept.

[Sharky]

I'm with Baker on this one. A different hat will not fix the problems OUR Army is having. Try better pay, better housing, no more bullshit peacekeeping deployments and getting rid of the "no-defects" concept. If the COS wants to solve some problems, THAT is where he needs to start. If they do this, I'll cut my flash off and burn mine just like a desecrated American Flag. What a slap in the face to all the operators who bled and died and who had to EARN the right to wear that beret, whatever color it may be. I EARNED mine. If you want a beret, then you go fuckin EARN it just like the rest of us had to.

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[LRSC Grunt]

Shinseki said the announcement will come in a speech updating the Army on a major reform initiative he launched last year at the same gathering, the annual meeting
of the Association of the United States Army


I say we all write a letter to AUSA and tell them how damaging this would be.

[Whatever]

double post

[This message has been edited by Whatever (edited 10-18-2000).]

[SOTICgrad]

Unfortunately Sua Sponte is right. Here's the brief from USASOC. Hell...they ordered that no one from Regiment even comment on the black beret issue. This sucks.


USASOC PAO Statement:

Subject: Guidance concerning Black Beret announcement by CSA

The Chief of Staff of the Army announced today in a speech at AUSA, the
black beret will be the new army headgear beginning June 14, 2001.
Public Affairs Guidance for members of the Ranger Regiment: All members of
the Regiment will refrain from making comment concerning the announcement.
Please pass this guidance to the lowest level within your units in the
event media representatives contact you direct. Refer media requests for
statements (comments), interviews or other activities to the USASOC Public
Affairs Office, (9l0) 432-6005, without comment.

Department of Army will provide USASOC with guidance concerning this
issue. As this guidance changes, we will keep you updated ASAP. USASOC PAO
has contact PAOs at Forts Benning, Lewis, Stewart and HAAF as a heads up.

Carol Darby
Media Chief, USASOC PAO
(910) 432-7585; DSN 239-7585
Bldg. E-2929, Room 112
Fort Bragg, NC 28310

END TEXT

[Whatever]

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/Gif/SPhitler.gif

[This message has been edited by Whatever (edited 10-18-2000).]

[Mac679]

gear, berets may be a crappy design but I wouldn't want to try taking one away from an SFer or Ranger-as a matter of fact I'd rather try an kill a rabid wolverine high on crack with a toothpick from a Swiss Army knife.
This whole thing strikes me as trying to use a band aid to reattach a severed limb. I gotta go with Sharky, granted I haven't earned a beret but the whole thing kinda sounds to me as combination of things. Partly it's that we're all special thing that we were told back in kindergarten ( great then-kinda sucks now ), and partly like the Army is trying to kill the elite "status" amongst SF, Rangers, and Airborne. Or at least make it less noticeable, sort of like their trying to reign them in. I just wouldn't want to be the first one to go by Rangers at Benning, Hunter, or Lewis strutting my stuff with that Black Beret on...
Anyone up for boonies as the new "official" hat for SF, Rangers, and Airborne?
Mac

------------------
2 days and counting...

[Kiva]

Another Article:

Army's Heads-Up: Berets All Around

By Roberto Suro and Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, October 18, 2000; Page A02

The Army's chief of staff announced yesterday that black berets--now worn only by an elite infantry unit, the Rangers--will become standard headgear for all soldiers next year, including cooks, clerks, drivers and chaplains' assistants.

The beret "will be a symbol of unity, a symbol of Army excellence, a symbol of our values," Gen. Erik K. Shinseki said.

With all the armed forces struggling to maintain war-fighting readiness, and with his own service in the midst of a difficult transformation to a lighter, more mobile force, some officers and enlisted personnel expressed dismay over Shinseki's fashion statement.

The sharpest reaction predictably came from Rangers, who treat their berets as a hard-won emblem of personal achievement.

"It's a slap in the face," said one Ranger officer, who asked not to be identified. "A beret is something you earn--it is not something you buy at a store."

Another officer said he would not want to be the first paymaster or mechanic to wear a black beret and go into a bar patronized by Rangers.

Shinseki made the announcement in his keynote address to the annual convention of the Association of the United States Army. The event draws thousands of active and retired soldiers, defense industry representatives and military experts to Washington every October.

Last year, from the same podium at the Wardman Park Marriott, Shinseki unveiled a dramatic plan to transform the Army's structure, equipment and tactics. That speech spawned a year of heated debate in mess halls, military journals and war college seminars, particularly because Shinseki said he thought the Army might have to abandon its beloved tank treads in favor of lighter wheels for armored vehicles.

Expecting an update yesterday on the wheels-versus-tracks controversy, the AUSA convention got berets-versus-caps instead.

A spokesman for Ranger headquarters at Fort Benning, Ga., said the elite unit would have no comment until it received a written directive.

"We'd like to keep it unique to the Rangers, but the chief of staff can do what he wants to do," said Minor L. Kelso, president of an association of Korea War-era Rangers, the first to wear the black beret.

By Army tradition, berets are worn only by elite combat units, and soldiers are awarded the new hats at induction ceremonies after they have completed rigorous training. Rangers wear black. Special Forces wear green. Paratroopers wear maroon.

Shinseki said the elite units would keep their berets, and that the Army's top enlisted man, Sgt. Major of the Army Jack L. Tilley, would develop new regulations on berets to go into effect next June 14, the Army's birthday.

Currently, regular soldiers wear stiff, round hats or flat, envelope-shaped caps with their garrison uniforms. All units wear baseball-style caps, broad-brimmed "boonie hats" or helmets with their camouflage combat uniforms.

Earlier this week, Shinseki had announced some other, more practical news for the troops. Addressing complaints that frequent overseas deployments are harming professional readiness as well as personal lifestyles, he told the convention on Monday that weekend work would be virtually eliminated for soldiers while they are in their garrisons. He also said that four-day weekends would become standard on federal holidays, and that short-notice deployments would be sharply restricted.

But the announcement about berets stole the show.

Today's Army Rangers trace their history to Maj. Robert Rogers, who created "ranger" companies of militia to use serve as pathfinders and employ guerrilla tactics during the French and Indian War of 1754-63. Even today, soldiers in the Army study Rogers's 19 standing orders, which includes admonitions such as, "Let the enemy come till he's almost close enough to touch. Then let him have it and jump out and finish him up with your hatchet."

Shinseki said he wanted the entire Army to capture the esprit de corps of the elite units by donning berets.

Wearing berets will be "another step towards achieving the capabilities of the Objective Force," Shinseki said, refering to the high-tech Army of the future he hopes to launch.

"It is time for the entire Army to accept the challenge of excellence that has so long been a hallmark of our special operations and airborne units," he said. "When we wear the black beret, it will say that we, the soldiers of the world's best army, are committed to making ourselves even better."

Some angry reactions mirrored the rhetorical weight Shinseki laid on his announcement.

"That is an absolutely ludicrous decision; headgear does not make excellence," said A.C. McGinnis, a retired Special Forces captain.

Others shrugged off the change. "I've never been happy with the black beret; I never wore one," said Bill Spies, a Vietnam-era Ranger. "The black hats are not very practical, except for show."

[Ler]

I can see it now; a bunch of dumb asses who have no knowledge or respect for a "beret" walking around with it all ate up/jacked up on their head. You guys who have been in a SF group know what I'm talking about. You have these legs assigned to an airborne unit that don't give a shit or know what it means to be airborne and they wear their maroon berets slovenly and without pride. I can tell you that these people I just spoke of were not "high in morale" either. What a fuckin' mistake. Not to mention a total lack of respect for present and past Rangers..Ler..

[gear_guru]

Sounded like a great idea at the time, but now I am pretty darned disappointed. I can't believe they had to take a color worn (unofficially) by Rangers since the Viet Nam war and as provided for in AR 670-1 for God only knows how long.
I really hate to bring this up but does anyone remeber the big beret controversy of the late 70s when the 82d lost theirs for awhile?
Well at about that same time armor guys were wearing black berets as well and still do at NTC. Shinseki IS an armor officer. Get my point?

[bd]

Wow. I can't believe they're doing this. What's next? Trigger locks on Mk-19's?

[bd]

accidental double post

[This message has been edited by bd (edited 10-18-2000).]

[RangerTom]

Shinseki is a total shit head and a moron. It's typical bull shit at the top. All of us who have been on active duty know why people are leaving, why don't they just ask us. Giving a shit bag, under paid, over worked, sorry excuse of an oxygen bandit a beret will promote as much esprit des corps as those wonderful BN, BDE and Division runs do. This guy is determined to really FUCK the army up more than it already is. I can't tell you all how happy I am that I'm out of that Mickey Mouse organization. What a Fucking disgrace! My heart goes out to all of you that are still in. Good luck and gods speed, you're going to need it! Take care all.

71LLTW (71L Lead The Way)

Tom

[Ranger002]

So what???

Tracy stole my quote (The one from Napoleon)
It's a way of life REMEMBER ? As long I they don't make me wear dresses I don't give a f*&K. The only folks concerned with this shit should be the Wannabes like Jared,Matt and Steve. They're gonna hafta to run to the T-Shirt maker and get all kinds of new commando wear.
I had two or three uniform changes and like my Ranger Nam Decorated Stud Platoon Sgt used to say Shiiiiiiiiiiit this hat don't even keep the rain off your face or the sun out of your eyes.
It's not like I have to run around and advertise. No one except the wanna be SEAL knows about my background ( or even cares for that matter) All I care about is the BTDTs. I am secure about that (unlike SOTICGRAD) I don't have to start my casual relationships with HEY I used to be a REAL DEAL...That was then this is now. The Real Deals let thier actions speak for them and could give a fuck what you dress them in. If it makes legs feel better about themselves GREAT I am all for it.
Like Someone mentioned (Tracy and Guy ) if we are going to raise hell about something how getting us MORE FUCKING MONEY for PAY and TRAINING.
William Hazen

[Domer]

It seems like all branches of the US military and trying to find work arounds for their retention problems. They are not listening to the people or focusing on what will keep people in the armed forces. Very soon here the USAF CCT guys will not be required to attend the Indoc. BIG MISTAKE!

[Razor]

<sniff-sniff> I'm so proud of you, Joey. It seems like just yesterday when you were talking smack about CS and CSS troops and singing the praises of the grunt. I feel like a proud papa to hear things like "the shaft of the spear" and "OUR soldiers". You've come a long way, and we're so PROUD! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

BTW, I don't recall the PC being all that bad. As soon as we left garrison (beret wear was manditory in garrision, per Group policy), berets got stashed and PC/boonies replaced them almost in equal proportions. Or, we didn't wear headgear at all (to let the breeze blow through our long hair http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif).

Troops don't crush their PCs because its ill-fitting or poorly designed. They do it because they've seen Rangers, etc do it, and they want to look high-speed and stand out from the crowds of normal PC wearers, just like those who "peg" their trousers into their boots (even though 670-1 says not to) or starch their BDUs heavily (even though the care label says not to). Folks want to be individuals, even in a cohesive unit, and do whatever they can within the constraints of that unit, be it ODA, Signal company, FSB, or the Army as a whole.

As many have pointed out, a beret is a very impractical piece of headgear. Its worn not as a decent hat, but rather as a symbol, to make the wearer stand out from the crowd in recognition of his/her achievement. If the 75th were to start wearing pink and gold tassels on their pocket flaps, guess what the newest uniform desire throughout the Army would be?

Is the garrison cap homely and disfunctional? Of course. But then, how often do you wear your greens? I think I wore mine (minus course graduations) a total of three times. If the Army were to go back to having garrison and field uniforms (my pipe dream, given the cost of doing so), then trying to embellish the everyday uniform would be a worthwhile quest. However, many have forgotten that the BDU is just that, a BATTLE DRESS uniform, and the everyday, accompanying piece of headgear (when a K-pot isn't prescribed) is a BATTLE oriented patrol cap. If you have reservations about the PC, then push for a more practical combat oriented hat, like a bonnie hat.

You want something that ties all Army troops together? Look over your left breast pocket. You want cohesion within your main fighting organization? Look on your left shoulder. You want pride in your Bn? Look at the earplug case dangling from your pocket (in many units, anyhow), or the signs all over the Bn area. You want company or platoon pride, look to the front of your formation at the guideon bearer, or listen to the greetings that accompany a salute in your company/platoon areas. What more has to be done to instill pride? You can lead a soldier to espirit-de-corps, but you can't make him/her embody it (to butcher a cliche). That's the final, and most important, step, but it must be taken by the individual.

[Tracy]

I do NOT agree to make the beret black, red or green; especially black.

I think a better color would be dark brown, to remind everybody we're ground-pounders. Our work begins and ends on the ground; and we'll be in the ground if we don't make the standard when it really counts.

Also, the beret should be a reward for finishing training, maintaining standards and honorably serving. In other words, you get it after AIT, you retain it after every SQT, and you keep it with your honorable discharge.

Screw up and you get the garrison cap; until you get yourself squared away.

Rather than pissing and moaning about berets; how about aiming this issue in the right direction and get some good out of it?

I'll give Shinseki credit for one thing, he gets people excited...

[RangerTom]

Hazen,

You are 100% correct. I just feel that the army is trying to fix the problems by changing everything but the cause of the problems. They put all of this energy into bullshit, and ,with this now, it seems to be getting completey out of hand. They are running out of issues to take the focus away from the REAL issues and that has never been more apparent than right now. That, is a bigger issue with me than the fact that there will be a bunch of little fags running around with berets on. Shinseki is mis-focused, mis-guided and completely off in left field. Shit, he's not even in the same ball park. What a waste of time and the tax payers money, my money. You are correct in saying that we all should focus on more pressing issues. However, in order to do this, the army has to be willing to listen and willing to admit that they have bigger problems than the fact that there are weenies out there that don't like the elitism of the special units. And that's my 2 Won worth of rhetoric. And, no, I have never earned any beret, I'm just a school boy. Take care all

RLTW

Tom

[TANGOisinKOREA]

I remember right after graduating RIP we had to spend the day inproccessing down at the welcome center. As I waited in line I saw my first real green beret. I dropped down to my knees to show my priase for the short fat overwieght LEG woman that was wearing it and havent been impressed by any piece of headgear since.

Except maybe those hats that hold two beer cans.

Chas

PS I like to keep my PC up to date can anyone give me the current cat eye design for HQ company 3rd batt? j/k opsec and all. Always thought how funny it was that it was opsec yet all the ladies at Arcos knew the right ones.

[Bubbler]

11ZULU,

You are correct, all soldiers deserve respect. Not just those of elite units. Having been out of the Corps for some time and being older, You put aside alot of that talking smack stuff about other branches and you understand and value all the service of every service man in the all of the US military. While I'll always carry that love and loyalty for the Marine Corps, I am no more a nobler human being then any US Army cook (at least I don't think so). But it is still nice to talk trash sometimes *smile*.

This is not my house (meaning the Army) but I do feel some discouragment that the Army leadership chose to take black berets to issue to all Army soldiers. It does seem to be a slap at the Rangers.

RangerTom, again this is not my house (and I'm sure you'll let me know that) and I'm not trying to start an argument with you. But your reference to other US Army soldiers as "little fags" would seem to me to be a attitude that is bigger cause in the break down of unity and moral in the Army then any berets given away could be. Talking trash is fine, but you need to keep some amount of due respect for your fellow soldiers. Just the thought of one former Jarhead.

[Snake]

Lt. ZULU,
That was well said.

Now, like all bombs the Pentagon drops, this has been clumsily implemented. Giving out blackhats to -everyone- is a mistake. Should have gone with royal blue or brown. If -I- had been running the program, there would be some kind of color scheme which seperates Combat Arms and CS/CSS troops. But thats just me whining.

However, it's funny to see some of the guys who kept saying "berets dont matter, it's the person wearing it", yell, "they're giving them to WHO?". Get over it. The only reason I liked my redcap while I was with the 82nd was so I -didnt- have to wear the G-cap. BTW guys, When I was with the 25th ID(L), Batt. Scout platoon and the LRSD guys were authorized Boonies. Now I hear all the Manuever Batts are wearing them. Is this specific to the 25th or Army-wide?

Snake
25th ID(L)

[RangerTom]

Bubbler,

My referance to "little fags" is more a reference to the dirt bag soldier who must identify him/her self through what they wear, either on their uniforms or on their heads, instead of what they do and who they are as both people and soldiers. This, is the problem. The fact that everyone needs something to show off instead of letting their performance speak for itself. I used to get into this all the time on AD when someone would say, "what are you without your tab?". My answer was, and still is, "I'm still Ranger qualified and what I know and the way that I perform can never be taken away from me." In other words, we are who we are and no patch, award, tab, badge or beret can change that. In many ways I agree with what the marines have done in not wearing anything, as far as qualifications or schools, on their uniforms. Furthermore, I don't think the emphasis should be on trying to GIVE the soldier SOMETHING so they stand out, but MAKING the soldier SOMEONE who stands out. Thank you for bringing this to my attention and allowing me the oportunity to clarify my statement. I guess I didn't realize how bad that statement was until you pointed it out. And, no, I am not going to tell you that this isn't your house. As far as I'm concerned you are as welcome here as the rest of us.

Take care

RLTW

Tom

[This message has been edited by RangerTom (edited 10-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by RangerTom (edited 10-18-2000).]

[static]

i am in no way a BTDT in this aspect but i have had a few experiences with the military and can not for the life of me understand where this idea came from. how in the world is taking the prestige and honor from one group of people and dispersing army-wide going to help out anything. the only thing i see going up is the amount of ass whippings handed out to the cherries getting to 19th replacement and flaunting the unearned beret to a true Ranger or Jumper. there is nothing good that can possible come from this and whoever thinks so, must also be on gore's bandwagon thinking that the state if the military and it's morale is good. the army must in some way know that this is a bullshit recruitment trap, being that that put a gag-order on all Batt Boys. they know the idea will come under great scrutiny and can only block out the voice of who it affects most. i totally agree that it is the deed that makes the man and this is not the thing we need to get results from our troops. i think it was posted here earlier, but it's true that the only real way to boost morale, and prductivity is to rebuild....not reassign. we need the funding back...we need the cutting edge technology....but most of all we need the quality personnel that we used to have before the cutbacks. please excuse me for babbling. i truly apologize but my point is simle

BAD FUCKIN IDEA

------------------

[Ted]

I am truly ashamed to be in the Army today. If I didn't take an oath and have a time commitment, I would resign my commission right now. I cannot believe how incredibly stupid and out of touch our senior leadership is.

[Grant]

I think Ted unintentionally raised a good point. If all the junior officers think this is BS and get out of the Army, who is going to change it???? We need some officers that have some sense to get into the senior leadership positions so that they can make some changes that WILL ACTUALLY HELP correct the problems. If all the decent officers get out, nobody will be around to get promoted into positions that CAN correct things. I have no right to say that leadership is BAD right now, but in my humble opinion, I believe that the current leadership is "misguided". Catch my drift?

Grant

[Ted]

11ZULU, I can't believe that shit I just read. You are the poster child for everything that is wrong with the Army today.

Why do you want to destroy the morale of the Army's best fighting units? For what? So others like yourself can look in a mirror and think that you look like a bad-ass in your nifty black beret. If you want one so bad, go out and earn it, I did.

Improved self-esteem and morale comes from doing, not from getting a hand-out.

If you decide to buy and wear one, just think of yourself as spitting in the face of every Ranger.

Hell, why don't you and Shinseki pin on the Medal of Honor. For your excellence in service and other reasons. I'm sure you could come up with some other good ones. You seem to be very good at the flowery, feel-good language.

[Snake]

Hey Ted,
Sir, I was a Paratrooper before PCS'ing to Schofield and joining the 25th ID(L). -I- dont mind Grunts getting Beanies. Does that mean I gotta hand in my card as a "reel L33T dood"? Bottom line:
The G-cap was hated. We needed a replacement. The Beanie is it.

No, they shouldnt have used the Black. Should have been brown. Clumsily implemented as usual.

By the way, I notice that a lot of you guys are throwing around the "symbol of everything thats wrong with the Army today" tripe. It's a piece of wool/felt. Get over it. Whatever happened to "its not the Tab, its the Scroll"? I earned a redcap, and this doesnt bother me. Guess I just aint elite enough...

Snake
25th ID(L) 98-00
82nd Airborne Div 96-98

[RangerTom]

Grant,

While I agree with your statement, I was a product of the enviornment like these young officers are. I can't speak for all of them, but I can tell you that I didn't particularly feel like puting up with 20+ more years of BS so that hopefully I could be in the position some day to change things. It's an enviornment created by more than just a few at the top and perpetuated by many at the bottom. It's the same reason that shit bags reach command and the great officers disapear never to be seen again. It's not a warriors' army. It's a powerpoint political machine that eats the warriors and praises the politically correct pencil dicks that never question their leaders poor decisions. It disgusts me to no end and saddens me even more. Take care all.

RLTW

Tom

[RangerTom]

Snake,

Yeah, yeah get over it, I know it's just a head carpet. What really bothers me is that they wasted time and energy, the same time and energy that I'm wasting now, that could have been spent improving doctrine or a million other things that could use changeing. If they're going to make a big change, don't you agree that it should be something that matters? They're trying to cure a head ache by cutting off the head.

RLTW

Tom

[gear_guru]

OK guys, since alot of people here agree that issuing the beret isn't going to do anything for the Army, what would? All I ask is that you don't say more money. If that worked we would be at 110% strength with the amount of money being thrown at (re)enlistees right now. Any thoughts?

[Bubbler]

Originally posted by RangerTom:
My answer was, and still is, "I'm still Ranger qualified and what I know and the way that I perform can never be taken away from me." In other words, we are who we are and no patch, award, tab, badge or beret can change that. In many ways I agree with what the marines have done in not wearing anything, as far as qualifications or schools, on their uniforms. Furthermore, I don't think the emphasis should be on trying to GIVE the soldier SOMETHING so they stand out, but MAKING the soldier SOMEONE who stands out. Thank you for bringing this to my attention and allowing me the oportunity to clarify my statement. I guess I didn't realize how bad that statement was until you pointed it out. And, no, I am not going to tell you that this isn't your house. As far as I'm concerned you are as welcome here as the rest of us.

Take care

RLTW

Tom

[This message has been edited by RangerTom (edited 10-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by RangerTom (edited 10-18-2000).][/B]


Thank you RangerTom. And you take care.

[Ler]

Well said, Ted & Guy. Good points; I think a lot of people probably feel this way.,,Ler..

[gear_guru]

Does anyone remember the Sensitive Forces cartoon that was running around Bragg after Clinton was elected? It was hillarious. Featured a flamer wearing a pink beret and a little scarf around his neck. If I can find it I will scan it. I am sure I have it around here as well as the 3rd Group Ninja Turtle with the caption, "Back Off Sadam or We Will Go into an Intensive Training Cycle", the SF Dinosaurs, and the ever popular one about the guy who went thru the Q course and went home to tell his home town paper all about his exploits in SF. What was that guys name? Michael Varner ring a bell? He couldn't go to an ODA after that and served as CSM Bones' personal driver. He went to all kinds of high speed schools while he had that job. Alot more than if he had been doing the job.
I have GOT to find those cartoons, I saw em in a box last time I moved. Now there is some SF history.

[wolfhound227]

Why not WW1 style "DoughBoy" hats?

Why not an updated "Bus Driver" hat?

How 'bout a Black Fezz with a skull for a tassel?

Mouse Ears seem to cheer people up.

No wait! I got it!

Green Tam-o-Shanters with green Army men glued on top!! Yeah that's it!

I'll stop now.

[SOTICgrad]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gear_guru:
3rd Group Ninja Turtle with the caption, "Back Off Sadam or We Will Go into an Intensive Training Cycle"

HOLY COW!! That is a blast from the past. I've still got my copy of that, can scan it if anyone wants it. There was also a cartoon series of interviews of everyone going to the Gulf except the 3rd SF guy. Got that somewhere to I think.

[javahedz]

OK, 1st, how much training and support money is the brass blowing on this "give me a better hat and I'll give you a better soldier" idea?

2nd, not all, but a BUNCH of today's soldiers are fat assed, whiny bitch, I just joined for the college money, fuck all that shit cause I'm going to Canada if a war starts, type soldiers. Don't even tell me I'm wrong, cause I know that if you are on active duty you see it every day. I sure as hell do. Every time I venture off the compound and into Lewis Land I see it. It sickens me! I had the unfortunate experience of recruiting (escaped after 2 years thank God!) before I went SF. I saw that the problem starts with the birth of the modern day American and only gets worse as they grow. Given everything they ask for whenever they ask for it. Discipline non-existent while growing up. Fat, lazy and self centered. And then you want a hard chargin patriotic young boy to join the service, first you have to find him. I for one think that bird is extinct. Sure as hell, headgear ain't gonna fix this problem in the Army or society in general. Look at the bonus and college money a new recruit gets for enlisting today (Oops, according to policy, ya can't call 'em cruits anymore, they are officially soldiers from day one!). Spoon feeding after spoon feeding. I'd go on but if you don't get my point after this rambling, well...........

------------------
Keep your powder dry
http://www.gogetemgear.com/

Dan

[JOE-BOO]

Ted..
I would like you to back and re-read my post before you run your mouth at and about me. I never said I thought the Beret was a good idea and I also said that a black one was not cool. I don't know what branch you are or what rank, but I have been charged with the leading, the lives, the training and the employment of some great warriors....sure I have my shitbags...but they are mine to train....I do not give up on my commentments becuase I don't like everything it entails. GEE "TED" what do you want the COS to do????? He can't get us better housing and PAY? He can't do it!!! Congress does that. Just because you are a fare-weather fan and plan on being a QUITTER, don't start coming down on me. What you "appear" to be IS what is wrong with OUR Army....Junior Officers who aren't high speed or dedicated enough to work through hard times with success...sure it would be nice if all Soldiers were up to the caliber of Rangers and SF, but they are not and not ALL of those Soldiers in the Regiment or SF are the Caliber of the Unit they are in either. Sorry you can not take mediocre to excellence. You are bitter you are not high speed enough to be excellent and show your self to be a coward, so you can leave the ARMY....BYE QUITTER!!!!!! So you can ease up on your comments or bring them to my face at Irwin.

Razor.. As as Infantry officer who now is an Armor Platoon Leader with OPFOR, I get to see alot of things....REMFs still piss me off, but at this time they are all I have to support me and they do work for me and my guys very hard if you know how to build rapport with them. Normally, I deal with mechanics more than any other REMFs...these guys get dirty and tired keeping these Sheridans running so we can stomp the other units (or as we normally put it, "train") into the ground. So yes I have matured some in my view....because they could just be shit bags, but they where OUR uniforms or should I say WE wear the same uniform and they are Proud to be the part of the OPFOR even though they don't fight and I can also say they are an integral part of the team. WE could not make it to the fight with out them PERIOD!....when your existance is light fighting you can forget this to a far greater extent....but mech and Armor warriors require good CSS. I guarantee they would not work as hard if they were just Soldiers Assigned to NTC....We ensure they know we appreaciate their days and hours of fixing these peices of shit long after we are racked out or even go in for a day.
BY THE way.....Good to hear from you....haven't seen you around in a while.

To All and especially GUY...

Guy we have talked on the phone and I took your advice about my knee....we also talked about a lot more...you may not remember, but I do and LOYALTY was part of our discussion....Gen. SHINSEKI is doing what we have all have been taught at leadership schools....MAKE A DECISION!!! No I do not agree with it, but I know what he is trying to do and so I back him.....just like you will not turn your back on SF no matter what....because it is your SF!!!....It is OUR ARMY!!!!! The last COS sat still and look what happened.....this guy has been COS 1 YEAR and has got people excited again...maybe not in favor for his ideas, but atleast thinking again....not the same old "when the Army goes rolling along".... Maybe he wants the Army to be an "in your face force"....well to get there you have to change how the Soldier views himself...you know damn right well that the reflection in your mirror makes a diffrence...sure it is superficial....so are polished boots and pressed uniforms, but they lend to an image.
The next step is to change the product coming in from IET, but that would be pointless if we bring them into a less than optimal force.
We wear black berets hear at Irwin along with unique patches and desert camo. We look far sharper than the Regular troops...and it shows in all we do. We don't wear the berets like Rangers, we have a nice Red STAR instead. However, we are a tight unit.

So are Berets the answer....no!!!! But it is a start and a push in the right direction....

GUY...You did not seem like a whiner or quitter to me....From one soldier to another I am asking you to hold off on ranting just yet and let him explain. Perhaps there is a broader picture being painted and we are staring at one stroke.

Thanks, Joey (11 ZULU)

------------------

IT AIN'T THE
BARK...IT AIN'T THE
GROWL...ITS THE BITE THAT
HURTS
11ZULU

[LRSC Grunt]

Would you feel any different if it was "round browns"?

[Jeff Rambo]

Back in the 1960s I believe, there was an executive order put into effect to protect the green beret (Maybe some of you can provide more info on this, not 100% sure of it) ... I would suggest that all of you who are not in favor of this move to write your local and state representatives and so forth and get your concerns across.

Of course I'm not a Ranger, but something has to be done about this, as it is a slap in the face to not only the modern day Ranger, but to heritage. And heritage is just as well a part of morale as anything else is. Is it worth it to boost the morale of the forces at a whole, and at the same time lower the morale of a group of individuals that many of our important operations revolve around? HELL NO!

It's been said here on these boards 3 times I believe, and I'll restate it ... if Chief of Staff Gen. Shinseki believes it will increase morale, I would also like to be the first one to advise him to start handing out Medal of Honors to EVERYONE. Lets also hand out EIBs to everyone. Everyone in the Corps is a Rifleman, why not make everyone in the Army an Infantryman? Not by qualification, but by decor on their uniform! And hell, not just any infantryman ... an EXPERT INFANTRYMAN! This is a f'n disgrace to those of you who have earned it ... and I know some of you are hardcore and don't believe that the beret makes you anything more than what you do as far as your actions are concerned ... I agree. BUT, there is a man by the name of Sergeant First Class Guy Kevin Jones, a man I do not even know personally, but someone who I have nothing but respect for ... and someone who has been there, and done that ... well SFC Jones has this saying, it goes like this ... "Don't fuck with family" ... well I want to take this time, and "remix" that so to speak, it goes like this: DON'T FUCK WITH HERITAGE!

As some of you know already, I come from a family where the Ranger dates back to the early 1950s, and this has not gone over well with anyone within the inner-circle, and I don't blame not a damn one of them. It's a f'n shame, and something needs to be done about it in my opinion.

There may not be a landslide amount of us, but there are many of us out there who come from familes with storied pasts that relate to the 75th Regiment, and will take this to the head in so many ways ... I am one of them. And with comments like the one below, it makes me want to think twice about signing my name on the dotted line.

From Military.com:
Bottom line, said Shinseki, is that people have "a choice to not get on board, and that's fine, too. But get out of the way, this Army is marching towards transformation."


Just remember, Gen. Shinseki has been around for just over a year, he came into the game during the Clinton Administration.

I ask you all to vote Republican come November for people like me, people that your futures will revolve around. Or as quoted earlier by a Triple Tabbed Colonel, "Vote Green."

I wish you all well, and best of luck to you all.

I'm out ...

------------------
Sincerely,
Jeff A. Rambo
NBTNDT
------------------
Disrespect cannot be commanded, it must be earned.

------------------
Sincerely,
Jeff A. Rambo
NBTNDT
------------------
Disrespect cannot be commanded, it must be earned.

[Kiva]

I've seen posts on here talking about the young people today and why they're not joining the Army, and how lazy we are.

I think it's because there is no challenge involved. That's part of the reason why I want to be Airborne, I feel that is the only way I that I can get a challenge and feel like I'm actually accomplishing something. Being a soldier alone is not accomplishing anything. IMO, Basic training for CS and CSS soldiers is joke anybody can be a soldier. The Army says, "it doesn't matter if you're weak, dumb, or a criminal we can make you a soldier. Be all that you can be, it doesn't matter if your best sucks... just do your best and we'll make you a soldier, and we'll throw in a black hat to make you look sharper."

I'm know that I'm not an expert, I haven't even signed the dotted line yet, because of certain circumstances brought upon by my pathetic excuse for a recruiter. But I know that Basic, well... OSUT (because I plan to go in as an MP) will be a walk in the park. You can pass with 150 points on the APFT...

I'm 18 years old, I've never been given anything I asked for whenever I asked for it, I've had a hard, rough life. I've definitely not been spoon fed. When I asked my mother (didn't have a dad when I was growing up) for anything it was "hell no," because I'm the youngest of 5 kids. She couldn't afford it.

I started working at 14, missing days of school to take care of my sister's kids... I can't even begin with the stuff I've been through. I do think of myself a lot, and I take care of Keeva before anyone else. The way the world is today you can't survive if you don't think of yourself. We don't grow up the same way as older people did. We go to school with gangs and drugs, and violence. I went to school and had girls dropping off death threats in my locker and threatening me to my face, just because they thought their boyfriends liked me... I've been in fights before and can hold my own, but, being jumped by a group of people... I was scared to even go to school. I've had people waiting for me outside of school, following me home starting stuff with me, trying to get me to join a gang. You can't even wear nice clothes to school because someone will steal it while you're in PE or threaten you and take it off your back.

I just kind of developed a numbness to it all and started not to care about anyone but me. Maybe it's wrong to be self centered and I know that I need to change, but you can't fault us (young people) for being the way we are. Part of the problem is the older people in society, always coming down on us like we're a bunch of lowlifes.

I'd like to say to any young person (patriotic girls and boys) joining to be a soldier to sacrifice for their country deserves a pat on the back. <patting myself right now> It is sacrificing, sacrificing your integrity by lowering your standards. I'm supposed to be in NYC right now working on my degree in Communications Design at an Art Institute, but I'm joining the Army instead. Mainly because I feel it's my duty as an American.

Sorry for the length, I type fast...

Note: I'm not trying to preach to, or lecture anybody... I have the upmost respect for anybody serving.




[This message has been edited by Kiva (edited 10-19-2000).]

[Roothead]

I think Tracy and Hazen summed it up well.

Some observations after some time in SF:

99% of the guys in SF don't come in to strut around in a beret (the 1% that do get turned on by it usually aren't worth a shit).

Also, the more years good guys hang around doing the job and living the life, the less they care about badges and baubles, and care more about doing the job.

I've always admired the gold football helmet Jack N. wore in Easy Rider. It would look great with a purple Ike jacket and a black sash (but only if WE were the only ones to wear them).

Barry

[This message has been edited by Roothead (edited 10-19-2000).]

[Kiva]

double post

[This message has been edited by Kiva (edited 10-19-2000).]

[Daredevil]

Guy,
what does FIDO stand for?

[Daredevil]

I was wondering what the opinions of you guys would be if the Rangers elected to change the color of their berets? Maybe sand colored like the SAS berets? I know this is a crappy answer to the problem and it goes against tradition but since (as I understand it) black was the unofficial beret color for the Rangers how about another unofficial beret color?

Again, I'm not saying this should be done. I was just wondering how you would feel about this as a possible solution.

[Tm]

First off I'd like to say Welcome to the Beret Armies club. (Joking) Canada and Britain have had green berets since WWII, all descended from the Commandos and it did not make the whole force commando qualified. (I'm laughing just thinking that!) I'd imagine the Royals were quite bitter about it at first may have even gotten over it by now. But seriously, if all this is true don't make too much of it because 1) You probably don't have a choice and 2) Things will find a way to even out. There's no way a regular soldier is a Ranger and giving him a black beret won't make him look like one. I bet within the first year you'll be able to spot the Ranger in a sea of black hats at Lewis from distance because SOMETHING WILL BE DIFFERENT. Maybe the way it's worn, style ,size, slightly off colour, something, and I think you know what I mean. It'll stick out and if the regs try to copy it, the current "rules" will apply. That's just the way it goes in a military. You'll see. Remember "Today's Crisis is Tommorows Joke".

[Razor]

"'Bottom line,' said Shinseki, 'is that people have a choice to not get on board, and that's fine, too. But get out of the way, this Army is marching towards transformation.'"

If this is indeed a quote from the CSA (the acronym for the Chief of Staff of the Army, btw), then things are worse than I thought. With an attitude toward retention such as this, is it any wonder mid-career NCOs and officers are taking his advice and 'getting out of the way' by getting out? Piss off the good people, make them leave in digust like they have been, and no amount of transformation is going to give you a better Army, pal.

[This message has been edited by Razor (edited 10-19-2000).]

[gear_guru]

The question fianlly came up besides on here as to why the CSA decided on berets and in particular black ones. Well, apparently, he picked up the great idea last week at the USASOC change of command ceremony. See what looking so good gets you. Remember, no good deed goes unpunished.

[jbrookins]

Just some more thoughts to add to this wonderful discussion.

The Beret is as already stated just a hat. But then the American Flag is normally just cotton cloth. Symbols are only important if they have meaning. Yes the garrison cap sucks. Every low speed country in the world wears berets and it hasn’t improved their quality (look south and shall we say southern Europe/med). Uniforms suck because their not designed by the troops. But then the troops would probably put shoulder pads and spikes on the uniform. Oh yeah and some really tall leather boots that would scare civilians.

There real question is where do you draw the line. For ten years we’ve been a social experiment run by people with nothing but contempt for the military in general. Fuck em! Say NO! loudly and often.

[Ted]

All right, I'm a little cooler than was yesterday, but I'm still f**king PISSED.

As to 11ZULU calling me a quitter and a coward. Well, for the first time in my life, I do want to quit something. However, I suspect that feeling will go away and be replaced by a smoldering anger, a sense of betrayal, and a dimmer view of our "leaders".

As for me being a coward, I will just take comfort in the immortal words of Mr. R.V. Johnson, "Considah the source, operatah." By the way, 11ZULU, those are funny words for someone who has been only shot at with blanks.

If you think that it is a dumb decision, why do you think that we should stand by as stupid rules are foisted upon us? I understand that the easiest thing is to say, "well, I don't like it, but I'm going with it." Don't you think that as a leader you should stand up for what is right?

The complete illogic of this decision about the berets calls is mind-boggling. This only troubles me about the future decisions they will make.

RLTW,
Ted (Striving for Mediocrity) Redman
A 1/75 Ranger, '91-'95

[Mike]

Many explanations and details. Suppose if one or a few of you said the same things at a meeting with your CO or higher-ups, will you do that or just keep to yourself? If one of you approach Gen of the Great Army Shinseki, will you said to him what you have written on this forum? if he canned you or fired you, so what? Seemed Shinseki is re-doing the works of Gen. Meyer (the chief of staff in the early 1980s).

[J-Dog]

Sooo........ What do you guys really think about the headgear change?


[This message has been edited by J-Dog (edited 10-19-2000).]

[Snake]

Revenge of the Tankers,heh. They want their hat back.

Snake
25th ID(L)

[E19]

Originally posted by Snake:

itI earned a redcap, and this doesnt bother me. Guess I just aint elite enough...

Snake
25th ID(L) 98-00
82nd Airborne Div 96-98


Snake,

How does one earn a redcap? I though they gave em to everyone in the Airborne units.
The maroon beanie was after my time so I'm in the dark about it. I do know I see all the landscape crew at Bragg wearing maroon beanies...must be the elite Weedeater regiment! j/k

Hope all is going well in your pursuit of the sheepskin.

E19 Over

[Ted]

I don't understand the CSA's thought process on this issue. It wasn't as if everyone in the Army was clamoring to wear a black beret. In fact, in an informal poll in my unit, everybody said that they would NOT wear the black beret, out of respect for those who had to earn it.

If Shinseki had to give everyone something to raise morale, why didn't he just award everyone a Ranger tab? I'd go along with that, my tab means far less to me than the beret I used to wear.

[Snake]

E19,
Redcaps(maroon berets) signify that the Soldier's unit is on Airborne (paratroop) status. Now, all Soldiers in the 82nd wear the redcap, but, not all Soldiers who wear the redcap are in the 82nd, if you get my meaning. I believe the SF-support troops wear them, as do -some- of the LRSU units.
LTG Claudia Kennedy, USA(ret) does not, however, wear one. Heh.
Personally, I would have chosen tan or brown for a Combat Arms color, and maybe gray for CS/CSS. Wasnt my call, however.

Snake
25th ID(L)

[javahedz]

Originally posted by Daredevil:
I was wondering what the opinions of you guys would be if the Rangers elected to change the color of their berets?


Call me crazy but if you wanted me to go from green to another color, especially to make way for new leg-land headgear, well brother, we'd be be having more than words. But let's look for the good in this situation, there are going to be a couple of fine O.E.R.s and N.C.O.E.R.'s written for the guys that thought this up.

------------------
Keep your powder dry
shamelessly promoting his wife's Blackhawk site
http://www.gogetemgear.com/

Dan

[abaustin]

Actually, I thought the CSA's thought process was pretty clear. Completely Wrong, but rather clear. This is another in a long-line of stopgap measures that the Administration, Congress, and the Army Leadership have all been trying instead of actually dealing with the real problems.

Shinseki seems to think that by giving everyone a pretty black hat like the Rangers wear--and I'd note that all the PR releases seem to indicate that officially the Rangers are staying with the black beret--that everyone will perform like Rangers, because morale will go up and everyone will think they too are somehow elite. By issuing pretty headgear they seem to think that all the other problems--shitty pay, terrible lifestyle, a larger commitment by a smaller force, and the poor Army Leadership--will just 'go away.'

I'm pretty confident in saying that it will not, and mind you this is just a simple civilian's opinion. This is just another way for people to get something for nothing. One of the most poignant comments I've seen made on this topic was from the other thread on the 75th board:

Originally posted by GUY JONES:
"THE ONLY THING BETTER THAN THE MINIMUM, IS NOTHING AT ALL"...Hell! I don't want to try out at all..."JUST GIVE IT TO ME".

From everything I've heard, this has been the way the Army (and the military in general) has been going. Let's lower our standards so more people can score better, and so that people who wouldn't otherwise qualify will qualify now. And giving everyone a black beret is just the next logical step: "See? You're all good enough to wear the beret! You're just as good as those mean Rangers!"

A lot of people will refuse to wear them, out of respect for the Rangers, but just as many will flock to it, and wear it just to prove how badass they are, and how they're just as good as the Rangers. Will performance somehow improve because of this? No, not in the least. As a matter of fact, performance will probably lessen, as those people who either feel directly slighted (i.e. troops in the Ranger Bns.) or indirectly slighted (all those people who would rather see the black beret as something you earn rather then soemthing you are given... and refuse to wear it on those grounds) LEAVE the Army!

The Army doesn't actually offer you much more then self-satisfaction and pride in what you're doing. No enlisted person is going to get rich, your lifestyle sucks, and your retirement isn't all that sure anyway. The reason people serve is for themselves and because of the satisfaction they get out of doing the job. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think many in any of the 'elite' units, SEALs, Force Recon, Pararescue, Special Forces, or Rangers, do it because of the neat pins and hats you get to wear, but the satisfaction you get from being the best they can be, and being among the best in the world. All the rest is just icing.

At the same time, how much satisfaction are these guys going to get out of their job now that something they had been given earlier is going away? A lot of people have said 'it's not the beret, it's the man that wears it,' and I agree with that. But the corollary to that, in my mind, is that the beret is a recognition that man is among the best. Berets were authorized for Rangers, Special Forces, Airborne, as a recognition that this person has gone and done something that not everyone is willing to do. Had they never been authorized, it would be a different story, but it was.

The black beret was authorized for wear by RANGERS. It signifys the lengths they will go to achieve their objective, their strength of character, and that they are an elite light infantry unit, among the best in the world--if not the best. By authorizing it for wear to those who have not 'earned it,' proven themselves to be among the best, it cheapens everything these men stand for and have done in the past.

To me, it's like pretending that a admin clerk or a supply specialist could have stormed the beaches at Normandy, run long range recon in Vietnam, or fought on the streets of Mogadishu. THEY CAN'T! The people 'in the rear with the gear' are valuable, yes, because someone has to do their job, but they are not Rangers, and if they want to wear that black beret they should earn it just like everyone else has to do.

Shinseki is completely wrong in his belief that this move will cause "the entire Army to accept the challenge of excellence that has so long been a hallmark of our special operations and airborne units." This move will only drive those good people away and cause those people considering service to not consider it any further. Instead of causing the Army to step forward and become an elite force, it will cause us to step backward and accept mediocrity, and continue our recent tradition of giving something for nothing.

It's not too often that I'll disagree with people who have been there and done that, people like Snake, 11ZULU and Tracy--frankly because they are smarter then me and have experiance where I only theorize--but I think issue is more then just a hat. I think this is representive of the general decline of our military. I think it represents the problems in Army Leadership and with the service in general, by providing a good example of their 'smoke and mirrors' instead of facing our real problems. This shows that there is no connection between the leaders of the Army and the line-dogs, who just want to be treated right, paid a decent wage, live in decent housing, be properly equipped and trained, and to have leadership that is willing to stand up for them and make them better troops instead of spending all their time playing politics and trying to get promoted.

A hat doesn't fix these problems, it just creates more. This shows a lack of respect for those people who have gone beyond others and proven themselves to be the best. This shows that you don't have to 'earn' anything, you don't have to meet any standards, you just have to wait and it will be given to you. The people who I want in the military are not those who will accept something for nothing, yet those are the people that this move attracts, while driving away some of those who are willing or already have earned what they've recieved.

To this end, I don't think it's right to just accept this. I don't feel you do a service to yourself, your Army, or your country. I believe it's time to make waves, to make people aware of the problems. Until enough people--both civilian and military--go 'what the fuck?' then none of these problems will be solved. People have been trying to solve the problems from within since before Vietnam, and yet it only seems to get worse...

Well, crap. This is a lot of writing, and I apologize for being long-winded. There's a lot more I'd like to say, but at this point I think I'm just preaching to the choir. If you disagree with what I've said, or my opinions and views are wrong, feel free to correct me. I don't know everything (hell I barely know something) but I'm just a product of what I've read, heard and interpreted. And that's part of the problem, there.. the people who know don't generally speak up anymore, because it's not 'career-enhancing.' Anyway, again, sorry for the length, and thanks for bearing with me.

Andy

[LRSC Grunt]

I find it pretty ironic that some people(you know who you are) posting on this thread supported the idea to eliminate all "scare me" badges/tabs on another forum. No one stood behind me when I was the only one to disagree. Same shit applies here. Its more than a piece of cloth, its symbolic of someones pride and accomplishments. Nice to see some of you waffle.

[pn]

Emerson said that "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Meaning that you should figure out what's right every time, not stick to something you said before because changing your mind looks bad. Got a beef with their arguments? Say so. But don't do that weak trick of slandering someone when you can't think of anything better to say.

Myself, I don't really think it matters. Everyone wore the same uniform in basic, but no one thought that the largebody in PCP was the same as the guy who maxed the PRT and scored hundreds on every test. Much ado about nothing IMO, but then again this ain't my house.

r/pn

[Jeff Rambo]

Originally posted by Razor:
"'Bottom line,' said Shinseki, 'is that people have a choice to not get on board, and that's fine, too. But get out of the way, this Army is marching towards transformation.'"

If this is indeed a quote from the CSA (the acronym for the Chief of Staff of the Army, btw), then things are worse than I thought. With an attitude toward retention such as this, is it any wonder mid-career NCOs and officers are taking his advice and 'getting out of the way' by getting out? Piss off the good people, make them leave in digust like they have been, and no amount of transformation is going to give you a better Army, pal.

[This message has been edited by Razor (edited 10-19-2000).]

Razor, its as real a quote as "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" -- got it directly off of the article relating to the beret issue at military.com in the news section.

I'll save my other opinions on his statements for another post. Tired.

Take Care, and stay safe.

------------------
Sincerely,
Jeff A. Rambo
NBTNDT
------------------
Disrespect cannot be commanded, it must be earned.

[eddie]

Look at this note I took from 75th Ranger Reg association web site. My question is: What is the other shoe that could drop. Could the black beret have been selected because something else is slated to happen involving the Rangers...Hummmm intresting conspiracy theory !!!
--------------------------------------------
75th Ranger Regiment Association
Statement on the Wearing of the Black Beret for the Entire Army
by Emmett Hiltibrand, Assn. President


Rangers,

We are aware of the announcement from The Chief of Staff of the Army of a beret decision
for Army wide wear. I am not totally convinced that the concrete issues have been
disseminated yet. I feel that the other shoe has not dropped. I am in a wait and see mode
rather than conducting a recon by fire. As this issue does unfold and if it does come to light
that the 'Black' beret that we so proudly wear will become common head gear for the whole
Army then we will take a stand. I will offer some advice here for possible action and also
some cautions and warnings.

[JOE-BOO]

If I may clarify....
TED....as I said in my 2ND POST.....you "APPEAR"....I do not know your situation, ubt for you to attack me is unsubstanciated.

I have not said I support berets and I have said I don't support Black Berets. I have said that I will support the "CSA" (Thank you for your correction RAZOR), because I know what he is trying to do. I see nothing wrong with the Army having a head gear that the other services don't use for there whole service.....perhaps one that links all of us SOLDIERS together....I have not forgotten a speech I heard twice at benning from the Honorary Colonel of the Ranger Regiment where he made clear that he was charged with training CSS personnel to become the Rangers of the Korean War...not Infantry. Sure there are sluggos in CSS...no doubt... but many in the past have stepped up to the plate when asked....PERHAPS WE DON"T ASK THEM TO OFTEN ENOUGH....so we get used to leaning on the RANGERS and SF. Or perhaps we are leaning but then never get any "props" for there actions. All those troops over seas sitting on powder kegs wearing Kevlars and Gas masks doing some work none of us want to do. The reservists and NG who have jobs and Families over hear who go 6 months ever 2 years over to Europe so we don't have to as often...pretty hard to hold down a career when you are that Patriotic.... But I guess they are unworthy of respect....I guess only those who stay at Benning or Lewis and Train instead of live a life of crappy existance guarding a fluctuating border get recognition. I guess only the SF troops in Desert Storm fought galantly and the rest were just doing there day job. It must be nice to get up on a mountain and look down on the rest. To be part of a unit that is all NCO's or part of one that can push out non-hackers on a whim and send them packing. I wonder how often the Rangers thank the 10th Mountain Soldiers for risking their lives...I hope often...well the !0th is so extended that no any personnel could so down enough to hear them...how over extended is the REGIMENT right now??? SF is pretty extended right now...my buddy tells me of the long days of TDY at Copper Mountain staying in Condos skiing and riding snow-mobiles.

Let us not loose perspective here...SF and Rangers have a tough job...but they get a lot of benefits too. If I had a dream realized about the Army...it would be that all SOLDIERS after retiring and asked at an Airport "What Service were you in?" that they would have the abiity to say I was a SOLDIER and that is enough. "I was an SF SOLDIER" or "I was an ARMY RANGER" are great too....but I woud never want to hear " I was in the Army" as if it were just a job with no sense of life long pride.

Those reservists in Europe and the mech/armor guys in Korea and Kuwait should be proud...thier country asked and they went....with run down equipment and low morale and often times inadiquate training....ready for the Powder keg to blow. I am sure they would rather be at thier home station training full-time to be deadly accurate at employing thier weapons systems and staying in physical fighting condition or in a far off exotic locale working with foriegners. But they do this...these under-achievers do this. Not to be on "CALL" but to be "THERE". But what the hell, they are just regular "JOE" and they no nothing of SACRIFICE and HONOR.

They don't want "YOUR" beanie, they probably don't want "A" beenie. They would probably like to be recognized however for their efforts as being part of the TEAM since they too are playing the game. Maybe not with Rifles...maybe with 25mm or a sabot or a bulldozer or a computer or a wrench. Imagine 1 ARMY...not 3 or 5.

GRUNT....you mentioned the patches issue....I was going to ask you why you were waffling?? A headgear is part of a uniform...a component....not an accesory...and a beret in particular is not worn in the field by our troops so it is not in the same discussion as awards on the BDU's. Atleast that is how I see it.



------------------

IT AIN'T THE
BARK...IT AIN'T THE
GROWL...ITS THE BITE THAT
HURTS
11ZULU

[RUDEDAWG]

Thank you very much 11ZULU for sticking up for us non-Ranger types. I never served in the 75th or any SF Group and I'm not even a BTDT but I HAVE served proudly for 8 years as a "leg FISTer." I am not a Ranger but I am also not a "pussy." Although I do not agree with the decision to disregard the heritage of such a proud fighting force as the Rangers - I also dont agree with the flamin' thats going on every time someone gives a difference of opinion. Normally I get a kick out of some of the insults that get hurled around here but I have to admit...some of these are hitting close to home. Could it be that some people on this forum aren't as sentimental about objects of a symbolic nature? This doesn't mean they dont care, they just aren't as concerned. No, I dont want to wear a beret. I say let the Rangers and SF'ers keep 'em - they deserve it. But a decision has been made and right or wrong anyone currently serving is obligated to obey. Gen. Shit-n-seki IS NOT the Army...WE ARE! The division going on in here is what is REALLY wrong with today's ARMY! No cohesion, no respect, no professionalism!

[RUDEDAWG]

****Only 9 more posts to 100!

[Jeff Rambo]

RUDEDAWG,

I couldn't agree with you more. Being from the outside looking in myself ... to me it shows no camaraderie amongst some of the guys here, even though this is nothing more than a bulletin board/web setting ... what is practiced in "reality" should also be practiced here in my opinion.

There is a saying that goes "We agree to disagree" ... it doesn't sound like some of you even believe this to be true. For some half-assed reason, the minute someone disagrees with you, they're an idiot. Now of course, some opinions/views may be more logical than others, but everyone has the right to one ... just like we all have assholes. Some of us just use those assholes to dispose of larger loads (more logical) than others.

Hell even Bush and Gore can debate in a more civil manner than some of you ...

And yes, I know some of you will get a little hot under the collar for my comments ... but like I said, we all have our rights to opinions, and this is mine.

------------------
Sincerely,
Jeff A. Rambo
NBTNDT
------------------
Disrespect cannot be commanded, it must be earned.

[Ranger002]

Ohh and one more thing.

The black Beret is not unique to the Ranger Batts (Opps Regiment) Unless things have changed over the last twenty years... woman in the Army wear it too ( ONLY with class A's I believe). I am sure the top dude will find another way to distingush Rangers from the rest of the Army.
William Hazen

[Snake]

Hazen,
the fems havent worn the beanie in about 8 or 10 yrs. (Dating yourself, brah? heh). Now, if only we could bring back the khaki's....

Snake
25th ID(L)

[soup82]

One morning at formation a TAC yelled at someone "SGT So and So, where's your Ranger Tab?" From the back of the formation came the reply "In my 201 file, SGT!".

Cheers,

Patrick LaRocque

[HmtPD2]

My wife is in a reserve unit...Their CO announced that they will be issued the maroon beret in an effort to improve "recruitment and retention." They are not on jump status...They are a Civil Affairs Unit.

[Dark Helmet]

Maybe a beret would have prevented this?

http://www.detnow.com/news/0010210801.html

[Grant]

Oh geez, it sounds like that damn news station is sympathizing with her. If she honestly believed that if she disliked the Army she could just walk away, she has to be one of the biggest idiots I have ever seen. Some people....

Grant

[Jeff Rambo]

Originally posted by TackDaBoat:
Maybe a beret would have prevented this?

http://www.detnow.com/news/0010210801.html



"Gates said she signed up with the understanding that, like any other job, she could leave if she wasn't happy."

1- You don't know how hard I was laughing when I read that. Could you imagine how many ppl would be seaking refuge if they failed Ranger School, or BUD/s, or the Pipeline etc. "I didn't make it, I guess I'll go home and try again next year"

2- Either she really is mentally "confused," or her lawyers are.

3- http://www.detnow.com/news/art/0010210801.jpg - Women like this SHOULD NOT be able to play with guns. And it sure as hell does look like shes smiling ...

"After 14 weeks of basic training in Missouri, Heather gave up on the US Army, boarded a bus and came home. Her mother, Kathy Latruono, said she believes her daughter was more than homesick and is glad to have her home."

1- 14 weeks ... hmm, well ... I guess if she went that long at BRT she'd probably be a TSGT by now in the AF. More to her 'tempo' I suppose.

Originally posted by Grant:
Oh geez, it sounds like that damn news station is sympathizing with her. If she honestly believed that if she disliked the Army she could just walk away, she has to be one of the biggest idiots I have ever seen. Some people....

Grant


1- Speaking from the inside ... thats what the media is best at. Sympathizing with the "victims."

2- One of my professors in one of my courses I took this past summer at USC (@ Annenberg School of Communication & Journalism) said it best when I asked him why did he leave his job at NBC, "I left NBC because I was sick of making the idiot look like Einstein, and if I would of went to CBS ... I would of just made the idiots look like Newton ... new company, same game."

Anywho ...

- Out

------------------
Sincerely,
Jeff A. Rambo
NBTNDT
------------------
Disrespect cannot be commanded, it must be earned.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Rambo (edited 10-23-2000).]

[Sharky]

LMFAO!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!
Maybe I should mail her my beret!

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[Kiva]

>Heather Gates said she signed up to join the U.S. Army last December to get away from home and her family. Gates said she signed up with the understanding that, like any other job, she could leave if she wasn't happy.<

Of course you can't leave...
Duh!
Where is she from?!

She was probably sitting there and saw one of those stupid recruiting commercials... Wait until they make commercials with everyone in black berets. <dunn dunn dunn>

>"I hate crying. I was crying so much I got to the point where I felt sick. <

LMAO! I would love to see something like that... Crying at basic training? Her battle buddy probably wanted to slap her.

>After 14 weeks of basic training in Missouri, Heather gave up on the US Army<

The Army says, "It doesn't matter if you're weak, dumb, or a criminal we can make YOU a soldier, and we'll throw in a black hat to make you look sharper."


[This message has been edited by Kiva (edited 10-23-2000).]

[SECON]

Read SMA Tilleys' comments...I would imagine that the other shoe IS about to drop. Could it possibly be that, in as much as Rangers are a Special Operations asset, that they too
will wear a Green Beret?

Army Times
Published: 10/30/2000

Black Berets
Now for every soldier

By Matthew Cox

For decades, the beret has been a symbol of pride reserved for paratroopers and commandos.

But that will change June 14 when all soldiers in nonspecialty units don black berets - the same headgear that has embodied the spirit of excellence in Ranger units since the Korean War.

“The black beret will become the Army standard,” said Army Chief of Staff Gen. Eric Shinseki at the Association of the U.S. Army’s annual convention in Washington, D.C., Oct. 17. “It will become a symbol of unity, a symbol of Army excellence, a symbol of our values. When we wear the black beret, it will say that ‘We, the soldiers of the world’s best army, are committed to making ourselves even better.’ ”

The bombshell announcement came one year after Shinseki launched an effort to transform the Army into a new fighting force capable of deploying with the speed of a light unit while retaining the staying power of a heavy outfit. It affects all soldiers, regardless of rank or branch.

The black beret, he said, “will be symbolic of our commitment to transform this magnificent Army into a new force - a strategically responsive force for the 21st century.”

It’s also intended to encourage the entire Army to accept the high standards and discipline synonymous with special operations and airborne units.

The idea, however, has received a cool reception from the Ranger community.

“Until something official comes down in writing that everybody is going to be wearing a black beret, we are just going to wait and see,” said

Capt. Todd Bearden, a spokesman for the 75th Ranger Regiment.

Minor Kelso, president of the Association of Ranger Infantry Companies (Airborne) of the Korean War, was not as reserved.

“I was appalled!” said Kelso, who was among the first Rangers to wear the black beret during the Korean War. “These are not just any soldiers.

They are people who join to become the best they can be. And the best you can be is an airborne Ranger.”

Kelso, 77, once commanded the 7th Airborne Ranger Company. He said he is not against other soldiers wearing a beret, so long as it isn’t the same one the Rangers wear.

“I have no problem with giving young soldiers in the Army a kind of a special appearance. Let them wear berets, just not black berets.”

Despite the opposition to the plan, senior officials insisted that the leadership of the 75th Ranger Regiment was consulted prior to the announcement. They also insist that it represents a positive step for the entire Army.

“I think it’s a good idea,” said Sgt. Maj. of the Army Jack Tilley, who has been tasked with crafting the guidelines for the new headgear. “It’s something to make you feel good about who you are. It’s positive stuff.”

As of June 14, 2001, the Army’s 226th birthday, soldiers in the active Army as well as the National Guard and Reserve will begin wearing the black beret with the Class A, Class B and Battle Dress uniforms.

It remains undecided if members of the 75th Ranger Regiment will continue to wear their black berets or change to some other color.

“They will have an option to go to another beret,” Tilley said.

The maroon berets of airborne units and the green berets of Special Forces units will not change.

Soldier reactions vary

While specific guidelines of the new policy are still in the works, officials said individual units will be identified by a colored unit “flash,” or cloth patch, worn on the beret. The unit’s crest will be worn on top of the flash in the same way airborne and special operations berets are worn, Tilley said.

In addition, new recruits will not be authorized to wear the beret until they complete basic and advanced individual training.

“After you become a soldier and go to a unit, that’s when you get your beret,” Tilley said.

Seasoned soldiers viewed the new change as appropriate, given the Army’s dramatic, ongoing transformation.

“Everyone knows that we are in this one Army, and it takes every one of us to do the mission,” said Command Sgt. Maj. Mark Ripka of U.S. Joint Forces Command. “And I think this is just another message to say, ‘Hey, every one of you is important to the Army and the transformation.’ ” Sgt. Brandi Campbell, of the Combat Maneuver Training Center in Hohenfels, Germany, said she was excited about the idea.

“I think it would look sharp,” she said. “The Class A hats now - they look silly. Most people feel like they are wearing a banana boat.”

Other soldiers were not so sure. “It seems to me that to most people, the beret is something that needs to be earned,” said Pfc. Matthew Durham of the 3rd U.S. Infantry Regiment (Old Guard). “The beret has always had a history, like Special Forces and Rangers who have earned it. And now they are going to go give it to everybody. It kind of takes away from them.”

Spc. Weston Cox agreed with Durham that the beret - whether it’s maroon, black or green - should be earned.

“I don’t like that idea at all,” said the paratrooper from the 82nd Airborne Division’s 3rd Battalion, 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment, at Fort Bragg, N.C. “I protest the nonairborne personnel on Bragg being able to wear berets. Hell, why don’t they just give everybody green berets.”

Sgt. Clifton Vail, of the 159th Aviation Brigade, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), likes the idea but was concerned about offending the Rangers.

“I think the Army needs a change,” he said, describing how he would like to wear a beret, since he belongs to a go-to-war unit. “But I am just wondering about the Rangers, if that will be a slap in the face to them.”

But Command Sgt. Maj. Steven England, command sergeant major for the 18th Airborne Corps, said he has served in all three battalions of the Ranger regiment and didn’t see why the Army shouldn’t go to a black beret.

“The 75th Ranger Regiment is a great organization. … I think they are pretty solid in their identification,” he said. “I see it as a positive thing for a whole lot of soldiers.”

Capt. Yulanda Myers, of the Center of Military History, said she loved the maroon beret she wore for two years at Fort Bragg.

But she feels the same way about the garrison cap she wears today with her Class A uniform.

“I love this hat. Every part of this uniform - I feel proud of it,” she said. “This is pride to me. I don’t care about the style of it. I care about what it stands for.”

Copyright 2000 Army Times Publishing Company. All Rights Reserved.

[E19]

Read this letter from MG J Lutz's daughter!

I have just read the e-mail regarding the policy that black berets will be
"standard issue" for all Army personnel. I am literally sick to my
stomach. I am the daughter of MG Joseph C. Lutz, who passed away last year.
I can't even imagine what his reaction would be....no, let me take that
back....

The beret is a symbol of honor, respect, and duty going far above
"standard". To issue a beret to all personnel is a slap in the face to
those soldiers who have taken the path of MOST resistance, who have
sacrificed blood, sweat, tears, and lives to wear the coveted beret. Why
don't we just go ahead and issue the Purple Heart and Medal of Honor to
every soldier while we're at it? Maybe that would help morale. Something
nice to hang above the fireplace and brag about.

This is the VERY thing that DISCOURAGES the BEST to LEAVE!!!!!!! What little
recognition they have is taken away from them. They don't ask for much. Many
forego better paying jobs to serve their country with honor--now even the
simple honor of being able to wear a symbol of distinction is threatened.

I'm not even in the military, nor will this decision affect me personally,
but it is truly disturbing to think someone at that level could be so out of
touch. Eureka! I think I've figured out the "morale" problem.

Sincerely,
Karla Lutz Bowling

[guerettes]

-S

[This message has been edited by guerettes (edited 10-23-2000).]

[Jeff Rambo]

And prior to working for a (shitty) software consulting firm, you did what Sir ...?



------------------
Sincerely,
Jeff A. Rambo
NBTNDT
------------------
Disrespect cannot be commanded, it must be earned.

[Jeff Rambo]

Whats wrong? Why did you edit your message?

Did the the set between your legs suddenly deflate?

Go back to reading C++ or something ...



------------------
Sincerely,
Jeff A. Rambo
NBTNDT
------------------
Disrespect cannot be commanded, it must be earned.

[LRSC Grunt]

I wonder if hes reading this board?


----------------------------

Some Rangers Unhappy with Beret Decision

All Soldiers to Wear the Black Beret, Which Was Formerly Reserved for Rangers

By Chuck Vinch
European and Pacific Stars and Stripes

WASHINGTON -- When the Army announced last week that all soldiers soon will wear the black beret, the distinctive badge of the service's elite Rangers, the service's leaders expected a backlash.

They're getting it.

Officially, of course, everyone is on board with the decision. "We take it as a compliment that the black beret will be used as the standard for the rest of the Army," said Carol Darby, a spokeswoman for the Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg, N.C., the Rangers' parent organization.

But in Ranger veterans' association Web postings and in e-mails throughout Army special operations units, Chief of Staff Gen. Eric Shinseki is being roasted for his decision, which is scheduled to take effect June 2001.

Sgt. Maj. Scott Breasseale of A Company, 1st Battalion, 10th Special
Forces Group in Stuttgart, Germany -- part of the fabled "Green Berets" -
said many of the troops in his unit have Ranger experience and are not taking the news too well.

"It's been the hot topic on the e-mail system, a real shocker," said Breasseale, a 20-year special operations veteran who spent the first six years of his career as a Ranger. "A lot of us are pretty upset."

The furor derives not only from the Rangers' pride in their distinctive mission of long-range reconnaissance and counter-guerilla warfare, but from the incredible training they must go through to earn the right to wear that black beret.

The U.S. Army Ranger School at Fort Benning, Ga., lasts 58 days and
pushes soldiers to the limits of human endurance. They get one hour of sleep for days on end, one meal a day for weeks on end, and often shed 20 to 40 pounds.

"Fatigue, hunger, hallucinations, severe body aches, emotional exhaustion are all part of the plan to make already top-shape soldiers even tougher," states the Army's official Ranger School Web site.

"If you can make it through that training, it says something about you, and the black beret communicates that to other people," said a Ranger-qualified senior NCO in the Pentagon who asked not to be identified. "Now we're going to give one to every clerk, cook and mechanic? Come on."

Bresseale said he'll never forget the day he got his black beret and "the
pride and honor I felt as a young Ranger."

"The black beret was a symbol of excellence, of hardship endured, and
pride," he said. "Not everyone could wear it because it was earned."

"That's the key -- it's earned," said Terry Roderick, a past president of the
75th Ranger Regiment Association who served as a Ranger in Vietnam and now lives in Cocoa, Fla.

"The whole Ranger community is up in arms. I don't know if the Army has
really thought through the meaning that the black beret has for these 2,200 men."

Peter Parker, a Ranger for four years in the late 1970s who runs an unofficial Web site at http://www.airborne-ranger.com, paraphrased Revolutionary War hero Thomas Paine to describe the feeling of many Rangers.

"That which is easily obtained is not valued much," said Parker, who called his Ranger days the toughest experience of his life. "If you give it away, it means nothing. If you earn it, it means everything."

Army officials were braced for this kind of reaction. "Everybody would
expect this kind of thing when you make a change like this," one official said.

But he said the black beret's symbolic representation of the Rangers' esprit de corps is precisely what led Shinseki to choose it as a powerful statement of his intent to pull the Army together in its drive to transform itself into a lighter, more deployable and more responsive force over the coming decades.

In a speech at the annual convention of the Association of the U.S. Army last Tuesday, Shinseki said he got the idea while attending the recent
change-of-command ceremony for the Army Special Operations Command.

"As I stood looking at those formations, I was reminded of the special
significance that the beret has come to symbolize for the United States Army," he said.

"It is time for the entire Army to accept the challenge of excellence that has so long been a hallmark of our special operations and airborne units."

Shinseki said the black beret will be "be symbolic of our commitment to
transform this magnificent army into a new force for the 21st century. It will be a symbol of unity, a symbol of army excellence, a symbol of our values."

The 10th Special Forces Group's Breasseale understands the intent, but
disagrees with the decision to co-opt the symbol of a entity that already has a long and storied history and, he said, deserves the same respect as the Special Forces, with their green berets, and the airborne troops, who wear maroon berets.

Breasseale suggested adopting a different color -- possibly sandy brown,
the hue of the berets worn by Britain's elite Special Air Services troops -- to put a definitive stamp on the Army's new era.

"Let the Army develop its own pride and esprit de corps in a beret that's
never been seen, so that we don't look like we're establishing our new Army with someone else's history," he said.

Shinseki has tasked Sgt. Maj. of the Army Jack Tilley to come up with the new regulations for making the black beret standard headgear by next June 14, the Army's 226th birthday.
http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent/1,11597,FL_beretreax_psas,00.html?cat=LEADSTORY1

[Dark Helmet]

Originally posted by LRSC Grunt:
When the Army announced last week that all soldiers soon will wear the black beret, the distinctive badge of the service's elite Rangers, the service's leaders expected a backlash.


Excuse me, but WHAT THE FUCK?

Allow me to translate for General Shitski:

"Now Rangers, I know that whenever this country has needed you, you've performed. From Normandy to Omaha Beach to Munsan-Ri, to Cambodia to Iran to Grenada to Panama to Somalia, you have always done the DIRTY JOBS. You have Parachuted into enemy territory, many times under fire, and saw your brothers die securing our country's objectives. You are the best we have, which is why you are always the first shock force we send. You are the best trained and hardest band of men this Army has to offer its enemies. So, in light of all this, Fuck You. We're taking your proud headgear, the only uniform item that distinguishes you from the rest of the Army, and giving it to every sniveling shitbag in the Army that wants to be like you. I know this will piss you off, but like most senior leaders in the Army, I really do not give a shit. Oh, I know I could have chosen any other color out there, but I like black because.....uhhhh....it's unifying, yeah, that's it. Tee-hee-hee....."

Sorry, folks. Been quiet too long. This sucks, and I'm pissed. The good general and his trusted aides can lick the greasy side of my tab-qualified ballsack.

[Kiva]

Did anyone see this? Scroll down to the "Proposed Uniform Changes" thing...
http://www.armyranger.org/csapao.htm

Is Shinseki trying to wipe out every tradition that exists in the Army today and build new ones? Is it just me or isn't a branch of the military supposed to have a history of tradition? What happened to "Army Green"? He wants to make everything black??? This is extreme...

He calls it "a signal to the young that we are moving, we are changing."

He is right about that but, is Army moving and changing in the right direction?

Changing the uniform is not going to help anything, if I was concerned about looking good in a uniform I'd join the Marine Corps.

The Army seems very strange to me right now...

Even though the black beret issue has nothing to do with me, because obviously I'm not a Ranger and never will be. But it upsets me. Also, I don't want to be in the Army and have to wear a black beret, very disrespectful. This is not the only thing about the Army that I have a problem with but, this is the biggest one. It's a wake up call for me, I'm realizing how the US Army reallyoperates. This is obviously not being done to improve morale because everyone is pissed about it.

Maybe the snag in my enlistment is a sign telling me to join another branch... It looks like the Army is one big mess, and it will be even worse next year when all of this is supposed to go into effect.

Kiva

[Ted]

Kiva, don't enlist now. Go to college and get a degree. Then give the military another look.

[RUDEDAWG]

I've got a better idea for you Kiva...
Join the Marine Corps.

[oanrei]

Kiva, the BIGGEST problem you have with joining the Army is the beret issue? I don't even know where to begin...there are so many other things you should be thinking about. Right now I don't think leg-Soldiers are wearing the beret. Let those who are wearing them fight this battle.
And if you think the Army is a mess, go talk to some Sailors and Marines.

[RUDEDAWG]

Bad post...sorry

[This message has been edited by RUDEDAWG (edited 10-24-2000).]

[RUDEDAWG]

oanrei,

I wouldn't take what Kiva said literally. I'm sure she is probably turned off by what she has seen coming out of the Army as a whole. For whatever reason the Army has been chosen as a protype to test all kinds of unhealthy ideas, too many to be listed here. This beret issue is just the latest of a long list of contraversies dividing Army leadership from the troops that they command. As much as I enjoy being a soilder in the U.S. Army I would again offer the above advice to Kiva or any other young-one considering a career in the military...

go to college or join the Marine Corps.

[Kiva]

Ted & RudeDawg,

I don't know what I'm going to do now, military wise.

You're right, I am turned off.

I am going to draw and prepare a new portfolio just in case I decide to apply to the art institute in question again, and see if they still want me (uugghh, more money on slides). I'll decide what I'm going to do military wise while I'm doing that. I always have a breakthrough when I'm drawing.


Kiva

[Kiva]

Originally posted by oanrei:
Kiva, the BIGGEST problem you have with joining the Army is the beret issue?

I'll ditto what RD said, and add...

I said it's the biggest problem for me because it's so ridiculous, and it sticks in my mind.

Originally posted by oanrei:
Right now I don't think leg-Soldiers are wearing the beret. Let those who are wearing them fight this battle.

I'm not trying to "fight this battle." Like I said "the black beret issue has nothing to do with me."

Originally posted by oanrei:
And if you think the Army is a mess, go talk to some Sailors and Marines.

I know that they are not perfect but, what is important to me are the good things that I can find in the other branches that make up for the bad. There are negative sides to everything that you have to deal with. Crossing the street can result in being hit by a car. Should I not cross the street?

Right now, I can't think of anything good about the Army that can make up for the bad, there is too much negativity. I'm not trying to be smart, I just feel the need to clarify so that you know where I'm coming from. I wouldn't enlist in any branch of the military blindly, thinking everything will be hunky-dory. I know that being in the military is serving the country not the other way around.

Kiva

[Jeff Rambo]

I wouldn't join the Corps right now either when you have General Jones wanting to ... well, I won't even touch this here.

- Out

------------------
Sincerely,
Jeff A. Rambo
NBTNDT
------------------
Disrespect cannot be commanded, it must be earned.

[LRSC Grunt]

I see nothing wrong in making the dress greens black with kakis. Accually they look VERY SHARP. However, I dont like his overall decision. I have to earn my beret. After I complete jump school, after I get my ass smoked during pre-jump, after I cherry blast(boots spray painted red with red uniform http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif ), after my platoon pounds my wings into my chest. I hate to see a beret of any color GIVEN to everyone when I have to earn it!!!

[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 10-24-2000).]

[Kiva]

Originally posted by Jeff Rambo:
I wouldn't join the Corps right now either when you have General Jones wanting to ... well, I won't even touch this here.

- Out



Don't bite your cyber tongue Rambo, speak your mind.

Kiva

P.S. Feel free to use my e-mail because I have no idea what you are talking about...



[This message has been edited by Kiva (edited 10-25-2000).]

[Paintman]

Just to get an opinion from the Rangers: If they adopt the black beret, would you be able to tolerate a change in your head gear or uniform to make you distinctive again?
Not that I am for the black beret; I believe that the Army should adopt a different color.

Also, I myself have no problems with troops wearing berets (Note: I am not in the armed services), but I believe the money used issuing these new berets could be spent on something useful, like better housing for the troops, more training rounds, etc.

If Gore wins the election, then I'll be glad I'm going through college before enlisting.

Chris