Special Forces weapons question

[RatSniper]

I read a book about Britain's SAS and in the section about SAS operations in Northern Ireland the book stated the SAS used a large variety of weapons. Steyr AUGs, HK 53 5.56mm submachine guns, M16 rifles, M16 carbines, FN FALs, etc... I don't get all the variety of weapons. Do some of the weapons just fill a specific niche? Or were these weapons used simply to try them out under combat?


Sincerely,
Ignorant Person http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

[Mart01]

Ratsniper,

It has all to do with deniability, if the SAS wanted to put the blame for an op on the Ausies they'd use the Steyr's, if they wanted to put the blame on the German's they'd use the HK's, if they wanted to put the blame on the US they'd use the M16's and if they wanted to put the blame on the Belgian's theyd use the FAL's. On the other hand none of the above should be taken too serious, but whose to blame ???

Cheers.

[Tracy]

Deniability, distinctive sounds, etc.

What a Load of Horse Poop.

Did it occur to anyone that the SAS uses the M-16 because it works? Because it suits their purposes?

Regarding deniability, all heavy hitters know who is operating where; and at what times. So choice of weapons becomes almost moot.

BTDT

[Sharky]

The enlightenment here should be that if you don't know the answer to the question don't answer and put out bad info. You only make yourself look absurd in the eyes of those who know better.

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[Daredevil]

I don't have his experience but just to back up what Tracy said (not that he needs it from me) I've talked to quite a few British Army squaddies who have nothing but contempt for the standard issue British Army rifle. It makes perfect sense to me that specialized outfits would rather switch to a more reliable weapon like the M-16, M4, whatever, as soon as they were able.

From what I've gathered the only reason the M-16 wasn't adopted for use by the entire British Army was due to some kind of internal political argument.

The Aussie SASR uses the Steyr AUG for their Selection and stuff but I've also seen pictures of their operators carrying M4s.

[dsumner]

I've got an Aussie friend in the ADGs and they grabbed up as many M-4s as the ycould get their hands on once they deployed to East Timor last year.

Apperently they had problems with the Styer AUGs and wanted a weapon they could depend on. Beleive it or not they are still issed M-79s instead of M-203s.

[Huey One Four]

Apparntly the NZSAS dont like the Styer either, the sights are too high and some other things i cant remember. So they kept their m16s.
re SA80: if you were the Brit govt, would you buy a british made weapon or an american made weapon for the british army?

[Daredevil]

That's true but I understand there was a British company that had a factory over there manufacturing them. I remember reading about it because it puzzled everyone how some of those Armalites wound up in the hands of the IRA.

[TonyM]

Brit Special Forces recently picked up some Canadian C7's. Used in the raid in Sierra Leone. Why? Good question, I'd suppose with the latest exchange rate, it probably cost them...let me see...add the 2 carry the 4...shit, they probably got them for free. Good to see they worked.

[RangerCharlie]

Saw that the brits are rebuilding their SA80's because they are falling apart and the army wanted them fixed. Seems that the rebuild cost almost as much as a new M-4. Hmmm, if I had a weapon that fell apart, I would ditch it, teething problems should have been delt with by now.

[baboon]

Made in UK- I think you're thinking of the AR18.

British or American weapon? Well for over 30 years the three principle weapons in the British Army- the Self Loading Rifle (FN FAL), GPMG (FN MAG) and Browning Hi-Power (FN GP35) were Belgian weapons made under licence, the last two still being in service. The SA80 is the first British-designed infantry weapon (besides sniper rifles) since the Sterling SMG.

[JY]

The AR18 is the base weapon for the Sorry Ars...SA80 modified to some degree but still an 18 under it all. Good or bad the SA80 is a poor execution of the 18 design.

BTW RatSniper concerning your original post the following is a quote from para 2 Appendix A "Tricks of the trade" of the "U.S.Army Special Operations Target Interdiction Course, Sniper Training and Employment" .."When operating in a denied area, it sometimes is appropriate to use an indigenous weapon and ammunition. The evidence left (casings or recovered bullets) would disguise the true identity of the sniper, and the sponsor". Though one primary reason for foreign weapons is to be familar with the weapons so you can train indigs with the weapons they have access to locally.

take care...Jim

[RatSniper]

Thanks for all the replies. I now realize that I should have been more specific. I should have asked, why all the weapon variety, and why all the weapon variety in Northern Ireland? I can't figure out why the SAS would have used so many weapons in Northern Ireland unless it is to try out a weapon in actual combat or the weapon is for a specific use. If I were in charge of the SAS operations in N.I. I would have had my guys use M16s or M4 carbines for general purpose, FN FAL 7.62mm rifles against vehicles for more of a punch to get someone through a car door or to shoot the engine out, and GPMG and Minimi machine guns for automatic weapons people. Maybe an MP5 or Uzi for undercover work or inside of houses. Call me dense but I don't understand the variety of weapons unless it was to test them in combat, or if soldiers were allowed to use whatever weapons they wanted. And if the latter is the case, I wouldn't go anywhere without my Land Rover mounted under my .50 cal heavy machine gun.

[RatSniper]

Also, what is a Canadian C7? Does it have another name? If not, where can I get information on it?

[JY]

Hi RatSniper, the C7 is a Canadian made M16. There was a site posted to the weapons board some where. I'll try to find it if someone else doesn't post it first.
http://diemaco.com
http://diemaco.com/images/sal-c7a1.gif
Take care...Jim




[This message has been edited by JY (edited 11-09-2000).]

[Enfield]

RatSniper;
It's essentially an M16A2, but upgraded - thicker barrel, plastic (or reinforced industrial nylon, essentially plastic) handguards, and the ability to select between Safe-Single Shot-Full Auto. unlik ethe US 3-rd burst)
It's used primarily by the Netherlands and Canada as the general service rifle.
The biggest flaw is the Elcan sight - anybody know if the Brits bought the Elcan with it? And the C7 can't mount the US MILES gear (du eto the different barrel), are the british going to find a way to get around this?
As stated earlier, the exchange rate was probably the deciding factor in purchasing C7 rather than an M16.

Enfield