BUSH WINS

[Scout]

CNN just announced Bush as the 43rd President of the United States!

[spectre]

Amen.
Good on everyone who got out there and voted. Every vote counts. Looking forward...

Mo

"Just a quarter mile more..."

[abaustin]

Thank God, but Jesus I was concerned for a while. I'm willing to bet we're in for a couple days of Democratic whining and numerous recounts, though...

And what's up with Missouri? MSNBC said they were still voting around 0100 on 8 Nov... fucked up.

[JY]

And WE kept the House and Senate.. http://www.guestbooktester.de/smilies/other/beret.gif

[pomofo]

They've just taken back their call of Florida for Bush within the last hour or so. Looks like Bush will still win but there might be a recount, keep your fingers crossed.

[VodkaChaser]

uh-oh

[VodkaChaser]

The word is known as "synchronicity". A plausible connection between seemingly unrelated things. Hillary Clinton is "voted" into the Senate. Mel Carnahan of Missouri has been dead for 2.5 weeks and is "voted" into the Senate. The national popular vote is within around 200,000 votes, out of a population of roughly 280 million people. The electoral votes in a lynchpin state are within some < 2000 popular votes. This is the absolute closest presidential race in history, despite the inclusion of 3 other people running for the Presidency. The story about the electoral vote not being finalized in Florida and that a recount could be issued was reported by the same gentleman that is running the Gore campaign in Florida, who is also the man in charge of the electoral process for the state of florida. The fact that Absentee Ballots that are postmarked 7 nov 2000 are valid in this election, and that they can be easily stuffed for persons not residing currently in Florida, might bring this to a conspiracy level. The fact that people are paid to run a system of proprietary computers that are dedicated to the sole task of counting votes does not suprise me. The fact that they are run by a reflagged company that was banned from tabulating elections earlier in the last decade sure does. But I am just an analyst, not an operator. I am just some crazy number cruncher in the basement of some government facility surrounded by computers.
Have fun in your new army.

[SpeedPhreak]

crazy close election. it looks like it will be gwb though. i just checked cnn & bush is still in front by about 1800 vote.. the florida election committee has a recount deadline that is set for tomorrow the 9th by the close of the business day.

hey vodkachaser... how long have u lived in the springs?

[VodkaChaser]

I have been here since 1995.

Originally posted by SpeedPhreak:
crazy close election. it looks like it will be gwb though. i just checked cnn & bush is still in front by about 1800 vote.. the florida election committee has a recount deadline that is set for tomorrow the 9th by the close of the business day.

hey vodkachaser... how long have u lived in the springs?

[WS-G]

First Gore concedes, then changes his mind, and is still allowed to remain in the running?

The fact remains that — as our cousins over on the Navy side of the house would put it — Gore rang out!!!

By all rights, that should have been the end of it right there. Governor Bush takes the election — no ifs, ands or leftist waffling — and Gore slinks off, with all the world secure in the knowledge that he's a quitter.

[Scout]

Hmm....First we have idiots who can't read the ballots and vote for Buchanan instead of Gore. Now they want a revote or a legal inquiry. Then there's the "missing" ballot box. Anyone besides me think this smells suspiciously like a Democratic plot? Then there's the absentee ballots, many of them appearantly military--and CNN's military correspondant believes the officers are likely to vote Rep, but the "young enlisted soldiers" are more likely to be Dems (WTF, over?). Of course since Bush will probably win the electors college, many media dweebs are calling for the end of the electoral system--though to give 'em credit, a few started beating this drum a couple weeks ago. Never mind that the system has worked for almost two and a quater centuries, its suddenly archaic and obsolete.

Yup, this is one for the history books. Certainly they can't call for a revote in Florida--that would definitely lead to Supreme Court-level legal action. has anyone noticed that the media twits are even more stupid, arrogant and annoying than usual--and that's not easy to accomplish. Guess we wait till then end of thw eek to find out.

Scout out

[Scout]

Double post

[This message has been edited by Scout (edited 11-09-2000).]

[JY]

Hi Scout, one very interesting thing about the absentee ballots....Why if the election is on the 7th and all ballots will be counted then and a President elect named would absentee ballots be postmarked no latter than the 7th and allowed to arrive in 10 days past that date(17 Nov)????? As a spoiler think about the time zones and DATE..post marked the 7th??? Let's see, mail it in Honolulu at 1630 hrs, that's 2130 in Florida, go further west and ...hey more hours gained(gotta watch out though, to far and ya end up on the 8th and missed it). Ballots could be sent after the polls closed and with knowledge of how the the candidates were doing. Also a discrepancy about how many are out exists......just some food for thought, if what the media has said is true about the ballots having to be postmarked no latter than the 7th of November and in official hands within 10 days the 17th of November.......hhhmmmmmmm

[WS-G]

It's called Election Tampering, Scout and it's a felony. If the Damnocrats had things their way, a "free and fair" election would mean voting for the cocksmoking, coke-snorting Commie of your choice.

Gotta give Gore technical credit: not only did he invent the Internet, but one evening while he taking a break from saving the Universe, he managed to invent a device that gave the Democratic Party the capability to determine who individuals voted for versus whom they meant to vote for, so silly little mistakes such as "accidentally" voting for Buchanan could be caught and corrected.

He borrowed the idea from Robert "Comrade Bob" Mugabe, BTW. It worked really well in Rhodesia back in April 1980.

[This message has been edited by William M Salter (edited 11-09-2000).]

[RAT]

What get's me is HOW in the HELL do those people get there numbers right on that tiny LOTTO paper. If it was for the 100,000,000 dollar power ball a few month back you know they would have payed better attention.

Just my .02

Viva La BUSH!!!

RAT OUT!!!

[WS-G]

Very simple, RAT. Gore's lot are only whining because the results didn't go their way.

[LRSC Grunt]

(infamous quote from my drill sgt)

PAY ATTENTION TO DETAIL!!!

Its the individuals fault for not taking his/hers alzeimers medicine.

Hand count five million ballots?? Yea I really see that happening http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/rolleyes.gif

Allow another oppertunity to vote?? Since when has the american people been told to vote again because the liberal media favorite didnt win?

The american people have spoken, lets wait for the oversea military absentee ballots to come in.

It seems Bush is ahead in florida...but dont bet your "trailor money" on it just yet.
Ted Coppel

He should be fired for that biggot statement.

[Jeff Rambo]

Originally posted by Scout:
has anyone noticed that the media twits are even more stupid, arrogant and annoying than usual--and that's not easy to accomplish.

As my associate editor just quoted it: "Ups and Downs" http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/redface.gif

------------------
Sincerely,
Jeff A. Rambo
NBTNDT
------------------
Disrespect cannot be commanded, it must be earned.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Rambo (edited 11-10-2000).]

[Kiva]

LRSC, the state of Florida has a new motto... "Florida, we keep voting til' we get it right!!"

IMO, if you can't figure out which hole to punch (the hole with the big arrow pointing to it) with the little metal stick, you are either 1) stupid or 2) blind. If you are one of the two, or both, you have no business voting.

And you think what Ted Coppel said was a bigot statement. I've been called a "sellout" for the past three days, for voting Republican... "Voting against my people" and supporting "the white man". <sigh>

<putting my gloves on, getting ready for round four>

Kiva

[This message has been edited by Kiva (edited 11-10-2000).]

[SpeedPhreak]

just saw on cnn.com that after the recount they have an un-official count that puts bush up by just over 350 votes (379 i think). not including absentee of course.. which is believed, as we all know, to be primarily bush votes.

does n e 1 here think that florida will get to revote? if they do... what do u believe the outcome will be? both for president & how our nation will change in terms of law, tradition, & maybe even civil termoil (sp)?

i dont think they will get it. bush is president & thats that. if for some reason a revote is granted i will be VERY upset & dissapointed in our country. i think that gore may actually win if a revote is granted due to the fact all those who voted for 3rd party will more than likely pick gore. i think a very strong trust & belief in our system will be gone for many americans.. & i wouldnt even rule out riots.. civil war? no. but this is the kind of thing that could lead to it..IMO any way.

did any one vote libertarian?

[E19]

Originally posted by Kiva:

IMO, if you can't figure out which hole to punch (the hole with the big arrow pointing to it) with the little metal stick, you are either 1) stupid or 2) blind. If you are one of the two, or both, you have no business voting.

Kiva

[This message has been edited by Kiva (edited 11-10-2000).]



Blind people (any physical handicap)have no business voting. A statement like that leads me to believe (under your premiss) you're not intelligent enough to have the right to vote.


LSRC,
QUOTE
"Its the individuals fault for not taking
his/hers alzeimers medicine."

This statement demonstrates your lack of knowlege on a very commond disease. Bye the way if you live long enough you have a one in two chance in falling victim to it.

QUOTE
"Hand count five million ballots?? Yea I really see that happening "

The process of hand counting is within the law. It's already underway in two counties in Florida at this time and will most likely take place in two others.


Some of the methods of machine counting has proven to be faulty in many instances..Our methods of voting need to be changed....the punch card method has too many problems and needs to be replaced by more modern methods.


E19 OUT



[This message has been edited by E19 (edited 11-10-2000).]

[Scout]

::sigh:: the Democrats are not going to let this die. Its not about the good of the country, but about personal power. The hand recount and the absentee ballots won't be good enough, the DNC will demand court action--never mind that the ballot has been used in that count for the past 15 years, was published in the newspaper TWO WEEKS before the election, AND APPORVED by both parties and the election committee. Never mind the fact that in the 96 election, this county was strong on the reform party, and Reform membership has increased there in the past 4 years. If the results of a recount suddenly favor Gore, Bush will certainly call another recount, and they're already calling for a recount in Iowa.

If this drags on with tit-for-tat recounts, or through legal action, we could find outselves without a president in January. Both parties still claiming to be the rightful successor. this is probably is one of the most serious challenges to the American system we've faced. Already, we've shown we don't care if the Persident lies under oath. Now the Floridians are blaming the election committee for their inability to vote (one protester's sign read "Your incompenence caused me to vote for the wrong candidate") instead of accepting their own mistakes. Now the Dems are pushing hard of illegal, and irregular "solutions" to this problem. Are the people of this country going to sit back and allow an unconsitutional revote? our system only works when everyone agrees to play by the rules.

Jesse Jackson was right about one thing --democracy DOES require eternal vigilance, but not on the part of a few pols, pundits, the media, and activists, but on the part of every man and woman of this country. My concern is do the American people even care enough to take a stand on a diffcult issue of principle, or will we once again take the easy way?

Scout out

[Kiva]

E19,

I'm not saying blind people don't have the right to vote. I'm saying that they shouldn't vote using the method that the people in Palm Beach complained about, saying that it was confusing, because the place to vote was on the left on the candidate's name and not on the right. Blind people have to use an assistant when using the punch card method to vote.

Kiva

[JY]

I just wish the liberals could at least get the type of government we have right..we are not a democracy! A democracy is the worst form of government bordering on anarchy....hmmmmm, maybe they got it right http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/rolleyes.gif We are a republic, a federal republic.

I just wonder about those who voted for a man that stands up and "exaggerates"(read LIES) to the nation regularly. Who preaches how much he's going to help with social security, after casting the tie breaking vote for the biggest tax increase on SS ever. This is what worries me the most, the circus he is the ringmaster of now is to be expected of a "man" of this caliber(or subcaliber...a sabot,a subcaliber wearing a false coat to bring it up to caliber http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif). He wants power so bad he'll do anything to get and keep it, and when it's not given anything to steal it. Sad, that this type can get such a following, sad that he doesn't realized how much damage he can do to our REPUBLIC. Hopefully some of his blind followers will see what he is with this current display of immaturity, probably not a vast number democrats seem to vote blindly for the party.

Ha well, take care my friends...Jim

[TMU]

SpeedPhreak:

With regard to your question about a re-vote in Florida, I seriously doubt that will happen. There is already a legal precedent in place in Florida that addresses this exact situation. The case is Nelson v. Robinson in Pinellas County, FL (late 1970's, can't remember the exact year). In this case, there was an allegation that the ballot was designed in such a manner that was discriminatory toward certain candidates. The original trial court judge ruled in favor of the plaintiff, in essence agreeing that the ballot was prejudicial. However, an appellate court UNANIMOUSLY overturned the lower court's ruling.

The appellate court's ruling stated that a candidate has the right to be on the ballot. Once he is listed, the responsibility then lies with the VOTER to "review the ballot thoroughly, in accordance with the solemnity of the occasion." In other words, if the voter does not pay attention to what he's doing, that his own fault; he can not sue to have his vote rescinded.

By the way, just as a side note, I know a teacher who made copies of the alleged "confusing ballot" and gave it to her class of 8 and 9 year old third graders. Over 90% of them were able to read the directions and properly cast their vote.

------------------
Do all you can . . . then do one more!

[TMU]

Also, regarding the 19000 some-odd ballots that were thrown out in Palm Beach County, FL due to multiple votes for President -- what nobody is saying is that approximately the same number of ballots were thrown out in 1996, for the SAME REASON! Come to find out, these ballots are what is referred to as "spoiled ballots." What REALLY happened is that the people who did this immediately realized their mistake, and they requested another ballot. The original, spoiled ballot is then placed in a separate, sealed box, and is later destroyed. I know this because I worked at my county election office on Tuesday night helping to tabulate the results. Every voting precinct in the country has spoiled ballots. There are NOT 19000 uncounted votes for Gore. In actuality, if someone were to count those spoiled ballots in Florida, they would probably find just as many Bush votes as Gore votes.

Political Science 101 class dismissed for the day!

[E19]

JY,

Both Bush & Gore have been guilty of not being factual to the people of this country.
Personally I don't consider either Bush or Gore to be the type of person I want in the White House.

The current situation was not caused by either candidate....It's caused by a system that uses archaic (and inaccurate) methods of counting votes....a system that is flawed in a major way by allowing the media access to vote counts before the polls are closed in all 50 states.....

I have vote in many elections...in different states and in different locales....using many different methods....including the punch type ballots that have caused the controversy. That particular type of ballot is problematic from many angles...the worst being the punch not coming off cleanly and thus not being tabulated. That is one reason for the counts not coming out the same
on subsequent counts.

[JY]

Well, W again won the count, which is how recounts usually go. The media seems to be turning on their golden boy a little now, trying to save what little credibility they have(think they have).

[JY]

Hi E19, we must be posting at the same time. Punch??? mechanical??? Up here we have a double sided ballot, each candidate and bill has an arrow . The head and tail are there, to vote for an item you complete the arrow shaft connecting them using the supplied marker. We have none of that new fangled stuff like punch cards. Even with our backward methods the ballot is marked BOLDLY if you require assistance, clearification, or any other helps ASK. If you make an error ASK for a new ballot and the error will be destroyed and a new one issued.

My problem is not with the ballots, it's with the blind voting by some with no thought of what's there. As far as complaints being raised...stupid is as stupid does. The problem is the same % have always voted for the wasted vote candidates in that county, including 1996 when lil Willey won...but then again they're boy won so no complaint. Now that the boy has lost a second count, watch him cry for more.

Ah well, the current powers to be like the 3rd world, guess they want to usher us into their brave new world. This affair is worthy of the best banana republic.

Take care...Jim

[Jeff Rambo]

A revote is not only unconstitutional, it is also an awakening point for future elections that will never be put to rest. If there were to be a revote, it would not only fault future elections when canidates decide that they wish for a recount after recount until the votes lean their way ... it will damage our country as well, and will leave us at a weak nation in the eyes of our global neighbors.

I'm not sure if TMU has a Polysci background, but he sure did hit it on the nail. A text-book answer in all sense.

Just to cover his six since I've studied this very case in one of my old Polysci classes ... It was in 1974 when that case was filed in Pinellas County. Similiar to todays events, a losing candidate filed the lawsuit which basically claimed the ballot was too long, and it was difficult for voters to find his name. As TMU said, he won the trial but lost on appeal. The appellate court ruled there was no constitutional right to having a certain spot on the ballot, and that is what is being argued at this very hour among other supposed irregularities regarding this years general election.

What we will need within the coming days is Statesmenship, plain and simple.

------------------
Sincerely,
Jeff A. Rambo
NBTNDT
------------------
Disrespect cannot be commanded, it must be earned.

[TMU]

Jeff:

My background is in logistics. As far as law and politics go . . . just call me a student of the game http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif!

------------------
Do all you can . . . then do one more!

[Jeff Rambo]

And as far as the cheap shots at the media go, I must comment ...

Yes, it was very unprofessional for various organizations to be premature in regards to the polling numbers. However, this is how the media works, and you cannot fault the media organizations for this as it is simply a industry where everyone wants to be first, this is how many in the media get paid ... by being first, and (in)accurate.

We must fault VNS, not organizations such as ABC, CNN, MSNBC etc.

I know I will probably end up on the receiving end of negative comments regarding my comparision that I am about to use, but the media is like the military in a certain sense ...

- Without a media we would be left in the dark in many instances.
~ Our media can be greatly improved.

- Without a military we would be left in the dark (figuratively speaking) in many instances.
~ Our military can be greatly improved.

Do you see my point here?

I'm not representing the media in this post, however I can tell you this ... On Tuesday, November 7th 2000 from approx 7am to 2:21am, I took place in coverage of my first general election and I experienced the "faults of the media" from the other side of the fence, that many of you cannot relate to, just like I cannot relate to what it is like on the other side of the fence when it comes to the military. We only speak what we know in each respective profession, but don't criticize it if you haven't been there nor know the full story behind it.

I just sarcastically suggested to the Managing Editor at News Corp (The parent company of Fox News Channel), which is where I was working on Nov. 7th, to request a refund from VNS on even more states ... and now they just took back NM. Go figure.

Iowa, and Wisconsin will of course be next.

------------------
Sincerely,
Jeff A. Rambo
NBTNDT
------------------
Disrespect cannot be commanded, it must be earned.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Rambo (edited 11-11-2000).]

[Jeff Rambo]

Originally posted by TMU:
Jeff:

My background is in logistics. As far as law and politics go . . . just call me a student of the game http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif!



Gotcha. Mine is Political Science (emp International Relations) / Communications (emp Broadcast/Print Journalism). CSU Los Angeles, hopefully UCLA come next year.

Time to go place an order for some broadcasting equipment so I can "broadcast from the unknown" into the peoples homes. LOL

------------------
Sincerely,
Jeff A. Rambo
NBTNDT
------------------
Disrespect cannot be commanded, it must be earned.

[abaustin]

Originally posted by Jeff Rambo:
And as far as the cheap shots at the media go, I must comment ...

Yes, it was very unprofessional for various organizations to be premature in regards to the polling numbers. However, this is how the media works, and you cannot fault the media organizations for this as it is simply a industry where everyone wants to be first, this is how many in the media get paid ... by being first, and (in)accurate.

We most fault VNS, not organizations such as ABC, CNN, MSNBC etc.

Just to comment on this, I understand the point you are trying to make, but I disagree with the conclusion you've drawn (if I read it correctly.)

From what you seem to say, it's not the news organizations fault, but the 'VNS' of which I'm assuming is the service that does the exit polling. Admittedly, with regard to the data, it's difficult to fault the media--they reported the facts as they knew it. Garbage in==Garbage out.

I take issue with a number of other things, however, with regard to the media.

First off, in my own opinion, none of the media organizations are impartial at all. Throughout the entire process, they have almost unabashedly support Gore over Bush. THe little bit of time they devoted to the issues was spent painting Gore's proposals in a good light and Bush's in the most negative way possible. I believe you are absolutely correct that we need the media to keep us imformed, but even in my short-life I've seen the media slide from at least assuming the mantle of impartiality to virtually doing all but endorsing their candidates. And this is the case in all of their reporting, not just political. Everything needs to be as sensational as possible, and it has become more news for entertainment then news for information.. I've watched newscasts from thirty years ago and it was vastly different.

Second, the way the elections were reported was totally biased. The states the media (and the experts) all said Bush needed to win were decalred as Gore states even before the polls closed in some states. As a result of this, with many Bush supporters believing that the election was unwinnable, how many said 'fuck it' and didn't bother to vote. I blame those people just as much as the media for not voting, but it is the media's fault as well. I don't believe the results of elections should be allowed to be released until the official--and final--counts are in. Elect on Nov 7th, find out who's President on the 17thish. Int he meantime, the Media shouldn't be reporting on the election at all--and exitpolling (which in my opinion was delierately skewed to favor the democrats) should not be allowed anywhere near the voting grounds. It was meant to be a secret ballot for a reason.

I can and do fault the media for all those things you mentioned. It is wrong to try and excuse the media for it's actions just because that's how all the media organizations work--if that was the case, then we should excuse politicains for being corrupt, excuse defense contractors for selling the military shitty goods at grossly inflated prices, and even excuse General Shinseki just because the majority of General officers have their head up their asses. Instead of excusing the problem, I think we as a People should inform them that their actions are wrong and will not be tolerated.

The willingness to offer excuses and jsut let things be is why I think this country is in a decline. Peopel need to recognize that the Instituions of Government, the Media, etc. are there to serve them, and not the other way around. If we accept medicrity, then we doom ourselvees to lowering standards and a slow slide into history.

Sorry for the diatribe.

Andy

[Jeff Rambo]

Going to make this fast since I'm not in town right now, and using my cell phone and laptop to connect ...

I know I'm going to catch some heat over this but lets use an example (fictional one)

You have a SF A-Team out on an op ... and they get bad intel. Do you blame the ODA for them screwing up in result of the bad intel? Or the bad intel?

Same thing with the Media and VNS (Voter News Service), VNS has been around for 10yrs, and ALL media organizations use them, and up until this year, they had only made 2 mistakes in the past. In the media, this would be considered as accurate as you can get. Many organizations pay VNS millions of dollars (like ABC, Fox(News Corp), CNN etc.) and expect accurate numbers, which is what we've been getting ever since their creation back in 1990. Therefore it wasn't about VNS being biased towards Gore, because that isn't the case ... they just called the polls in a premature fashion due to what they THOUGHT they saw. This is who we blame; not the media.

The media is at fault as well, but not in the capacity some people are trying to make it seem.

And yes, of course- As long as you have Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Press ... you will ALWAYS see the media being biased when you refer to the cable networks atleast ... the regular broadcast networks (ABC, NBC etc) don't have as big a margin to be biased towards one canidate opposite another. But when you go into CNN, HDLN, MSNBC etc., then yes ... you will see anchors being biased.

Just realize one thing ... an organization can be biased yet remain balanced, take Fox News Channel (The Cable Network, not the Broadcast Channel) for example- Have of the anchors lean one way, another have lean the other, with the remaining in the middle ... this is what we call "Fair & Balanced Reporting" (As well Coverage).

Now if you wanna talk about seriously being biased ... thats where you go into newspapers (i.e. the NY Times endorsing Gore, which is what you were truly talking about in your post to an extent.)

This is why I stay away from print journalism now, and stick to broadcast because 1- I believe in Fair/Balanced Coverage/Reporting, and you can only do that in the broadcast media in most instances and not the print media in todays world of news to no extent. And 2, of course being that I'm not an English Major nor do I plan to be so editors hate me. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

------------------
Sincerely,
Jeff A. Rambo
NBTNDT
------------------
Disrespect cannot be commanded, it must be earned.

[Bubbler]

I don't know why we can't have a system as simple as something like - make an x in the box next to the name of the candidate you want. But I guess that would be to simple right?

Kiva, brush off what those around say to you when they call you a "sell out" for voting for Bush. Yes, when black Americans sense that there is an element of hatred in the Republican party directed at them (black people) they are correct. But a people (Americans or any nations citizens - Canada, Mexico, and so on.) need to vote for the common good, not for what their individual group (ethnic or otherwise) is promised. Abortion is State sanctioned murder legalized on the grounds of will, not natural law. Kiva, the slave trade of African in this country was challenged through argument on the grounds of natural law, for at the time this country had legalized slavery of Africans in the south on the grounds WILL - Africans are not full humans, or African by nature are to be the servants of other men. Finaly let us not forget argument though compelling was not enough, it was the sheding of blood that brung slavery of Africans to an end in this country (and as to their due credit, even though a many of them may have not liked black people, that is on the blue side, a great many white people died, in the end so others may be free). So Kiva, "homosexual marriage" as with abortion is not grounded in natural law but rather a law by will. So too if we stay this course we can one day find our selves with pedophilia being legalized or sex with animals, for as order goes natural law is thrown out and the law of will rules.

So a 100 years from now GOD willing, when history of this time is written. Generations will look upon you as a giant among ants. Someone who through the verbal abuse and propaganda, stayed the good course.

SEMPER FI

[LRSC Grunt]

http://www.ernieshouseofwhoopass.com/pictures/votingmorons.gif

[Kiva]

Bubbler,

I did my own little experiment. I made a ballot for my 6 yr. old nephew for the hell of it (I was bored) I substituted the candidates names with the names of pokemon. I gave him a marker and told him to fill in the circle for the pokemon that he thought was the strongest. He happily filled in the circle for Blastoise his favorite pokemon... I better watch out though, tomorrow he might wake me in protest saying that he thought he was voting for Bedrill...

There may be hatred directed at blacks, but, what I'm talking about is the whole "I'm being oppressed by the white man" thing. I hear TOO many black people talking about this. I don't understand how someone who sells drugs to their friend's mother, with no job, can think he is being oppressed by the white man. First, he is oppressing his own "people" by selling them drugs. Second, he's so busy complaining about how he has nothing, but, does nothing to change that, i.e. get a real job get some money and buy what you want (It's not going to rain from the sky). Some black people use the oppression line as an excuse to sit on their but and be sorry...

I told this woman that I work with, that I voted for Bush because I'm joining the Army and I have "issues" with the current state of the Army (as I see it as a civilian) and I think Bush sounds like he can do something to improve the military, plain and simple.

She told me that I was thinking about myself, by "only caring about the military" and I "should vote to help my people out." She went on to say that "the world should be more peaceful, with no guns and violence." And she said that I am "a violent wild cat" (excuse me, I had to chuckle.. WTF??) because I "want to be a soldier." I told her, it's nice that she wants ufuckingtopia (I know, I shouldn’t have used that word) but the world is not, and never will be. Take away guns, people will kill each other with knives, baseball bats, steel rods... Take away the military... All I have to say is, I sleep easy knowing that their are people protecting the country. Also, I don't understand how joining is thinking about myself...

This one guy told me that I will "contribute to wasting tax payers money by training for a war that will never come." That "we as humans have evolved and handle matters intelligently not violently." There is "no reason to improve the military, it's a waste of money."

I tried to respond intelligently but I could do nothing but laugh.

I don't expect people to agree with me, everyone has their own views, but, to think that there is no need to improve the military is way out there... It's mind boggling...

I will try to stay the good course. And believe me I brushed those people off, like I do so well. For some reason I offend people a lot but, not on purpose. Before I say something, I think "would I be offended by this?" and if it's no, I say it. But it seems some people are very sensitive... People that start stuff with me do it because they know I am not easily offended or swayed, and it annoys them when I stay calm while they fly off the handle trying their best to piss me off. They say anything... it's funny and enjoyable. I can't wait to see the woman tomorrow. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

One skill I need to learn though... typing less.

Kiva

[Kiva]

LRSC: That is funny as hell!

GUY: It would be "invalid" to fight without gloves... http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

<tomorrow... title fight, round 20>

[abaustin]

Jeff,

Points taken. I still disagree with the Media reporting the vote prior to it actually being 100% settled, but that's just my personal pref.

WRT fair and balanced reporting, I actually had this conversation today with some other people. I was asked 'Which network are you bitching about?' I go 'MSNBC.' Their responses: 'No shit, what did you expect?' I don't watch too much of the broadcast news (conflicts with The Simpsons, y'know) and tend to get most of my news from cable channels. Maybe that will teach me something.

Kiva, for all those calling you a sellout, just laugh it off. I would never vote a party ticket. I'm a registered Republican, but I'm a Libertarian at heart. The only Republicans I vote for was Bush and a State Senator that was running unopposed.. the rest I voted for who I thought was the best for the job. That included a Libertarian, two Democrats, and an Independant. Maybe I was throwing my votes away, but the only way we'll get away from a two-party system is to convince enough people that it's possible for non-Dems/Repubs to win. They don't like who you vote for, fuck 'em. It's not their vote.

RangerHazen--if you decide to tell us your views on drug legalization, woudl you start a new topic? I bet there are a bunch of us with opinions on it. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

Andy

[LRSC Grunt]

<-------registered republican and party ticket voter

AND GODAMN PROUD OF IT!!!!


(do you think this post is confusing http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/confused.gif )

[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 11-12-2000).]

[E19]

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) Contrary to his presidential campaign's argument today, Gov. George W. Bush three years ago signed legislation into law in Texas that said a manual recount is preferred to an electronic machine recount in determining close.


This is typical of politicians.....For my money they are all a bunch of two faced assholes......They make laws but they don't want them to apply to themselves....The voting laws in FL (among other states)...provide for a manual recount at the request of either candidate...It is not uncommon for these recounts to be done..and
often the results are different than the machine counts (the punch card ballots have proven to be off as much as 6% points.

To me it is more important that the results be as accurate as possible regardless of who wins....and when a race is as close as this one ...every legal means should betaken to insure that this happens....

Now here we have the Governor of Texas who signed into law in TX something that he now wants The Federal Courts to declare unconstitutional in the state of FL.....makes no sense to me.....especially from a self proclaimed straight shooter...Perhaps someday we will have some truly good candidates run for president.

[LRSC Grunt]

E19,
I think he knows that, his law was meant for a "basic" recount. As in if the hole is punched it is counted. They are getting way way way way to technical in florida, down to the very FIBER. I saw on the news how they are counting them. They are taking into consideration of the voters possible "intentions" instead of their actual vote!! You see the squares that are punched out, are held by four fibers. If one fiber is broke they are taking that as a "possible intended vote" and notating it for records. If two fibers are broke it is counted as an "intended" vote. If three fibers or the square is missing it is considered a vote. This may pose as a problem because it can cancell out anyones vote, especially after the ballot were handled up to 6 times!!!!

I think the Bush campain has their trump card still in their back pocket. Why do you think Bush is already picking his cabinet members? Why is he so confident? I am willing to bet he knows and has evidence of ballot fraud. Why do think Jeb backed ouf the recount process and re-emphisized the fact that almost all the polling stations were managed by a democrat and stated that ballot fraud is a felony in the state of florida? Hmmm...a democrat goes to a bumm off the streats registers him to vote then tells him "heres ten dollars if you punch the hole for the second person". Ive also read somewhere that the Gore campain paid a telemarketing company to call voters in palm beach while the polls where still open telling them about the "confusing ballot" to rile them up. Look, the ballot was designed by a DEMOCRAT, was approved by all parties, was sent to voters as a sample ballot without error, and wasnt deemed a "voter irregularity" before the polls were closed. But only after the polls were closed was it called a "voter irregularity".

BTW, I know what alzeimers is, my grandfather had it.


According to texas state law, a recount(machine) is authorized if the party requests it, and if they pay for it. I think it costs something like 65 bucks just for one precint http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif Just think how much it would cost for a manual recount here in texas!!



[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 11-12-2000).]

[Mudborne]

-

[This message has been edited by Mudborne (edited 11-12-2000).]

[Jeff Rambo]

http://www.algore-2000.org/images/gorefile.gif

Going out to buy me a G.I Gore now .... that and hop on a redeye flight :-/

[Jeff Rambo]

Andy,

I understand where you are coming from. Perfectly, trust me. And I agree with you on some of your standpoints, and thats coming from somone who is a product of the community at question.

------------------
Sincerely,
Jeff A. Rambo
NBTNDT
------------------
Disrespect cannot be commanded, it must be earned.

[BK101484]

I personally think that it is time that Slobodon .... I mean Gore accepts his defeat.

The recount of certain areas in the state is B.S. To be fair we would have to recount the whole state manually, or eventhe country. Some states were also very close, but you didnt hear Mr. Slobo-Gore wanting recounts there, because he won those states. He is self serving,he is not acting for the good of the people.

[spectre]

Kiva,
I sympathize. I am in the same situation only at school.
Also, thought this would be interesting: I just got done participating in a 24 hour POW/MIA Veterans Day run, and I was called a "babykiller" for the first time in my life - just for carrying a flag. Makes you wonder WTF is going through peoples' heads, other than air. Like you said, Stay the Course.

Mo

"Just a Quarter-mile more..."

[LRSC Grunt]

http://www.foxnews.com/video/111100/repub_injunction.sml

[RifleMaster]

Hand recount in Florida! WTF! Something is starting to smell down in Florida! Even in 1960, when the Democrats won the mismarked ballots did NOT count! Should incompetent voters in a few Counties of the Country be allowed to influence a National Election?

I'm wondering what part of NO YOU DIDN'T WIN that Gore doesn't understand!

Gore is making this Country look like the 3rd world countries that we used to shake our heads at!

Carl/RifleMaster



[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 11-12-2000).]

[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 11-12-2000).]

[1026]

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View

[This message has been edited by 1026 (edited 11-12-2000).]

[JY]

Hey Al Gore!!!! http://www.animatedgif.net/beavisbutthead/mooning_bart_e0.gif

[This message has been edited by JY (edited 11-12-2000).]

[E19]

Riflemaster,

The purpose for hand recounting is to count ballots that the machine counting misses (due to hanging chads)...It does not change counts for a ballot that someone voted for a candidate in error...nor does it validate a ballot that votes for more than one candidate. The punch card systems of the type used in 3 of the 4 counties are known to not count valid ballots (up to about 6%)because of the failure of the punchout to completely seperate from the card. Manual recounts of those type ballots are actually quite common....just never had a presidential race this close before.....Florida statutes provide for this at the request of a candidate within 72 hours...on a county by county basis....Gore requested that 4 counties do so. Bush could (should have)have requested the same in all the other counties that use such systems.

In my opinion the law should read that in the case of an election that is for more than just a single county the votes in all counties should be manually tabulated. I bet the state law will be ammended that way next year. I also feel the archaic counting systems (they are used across the country) need be replaced accross the country with more precise, more uniform systems that will count all valid systems.

The issue of the Palm Beach County Ballot layout...is another issue by itself and is not germaine to the recount process. While there may have been a problem with the layout (legally)that should be corrected in the future....There should not be a revote.

Politics aside the system of recounting and manual counts is there to ensure that a persons vote is counted....to be fair all of the ballots that are counted by the problematic systems should be recounted.

I voted in a county in FL that had a large increase in the total number votes counted during the recount.....I have no idea if my vote was counted....perhaps a "hanging chad"
prevented my vote from being counted..or counted during the recount ....and in a close race like this that would be a terrible consquence.

E19 OUT

[LRSC Grunt]

E19,
Your failing to miss the point here. They are taking into consideration of the voters possible intent. I just heard that in one county one of the officials in charge of the recount, of which by the way is a democrat, changed his own rules right smack in the middle of the recount. Plus I hear that not every county is counting them in the same way.

[LRSC Grunt]

http://www.ehowa.com/pictures/bushandcheney.jpg

WE RULE WE RULE!!!!

[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 11-13-2000).]

[LRSC Grunt]

uuuhhh....huh huh huh....your name is dick...huh huh huh

[RAT]

E19,

Can I get you to back me up....I want to go back and have my hanging chads looked at on my scantrons, ACT,& SAT scores from the past. I know that I did not mean to mark some of the answers. You know they count those marks against you. I think it will raise my scores about 400 points...that makes a big boost in scores. By the way I scored 1150 on my SAT. It is still a long way from 1600 but if I can get you to help me I just might make it to 1550. LOL
HARVARD HERE I COME!!!! MAYBE I CAN GET AL AND TOMMY LEE JONES TO ROOM WITH ME...

Where is it going to end.

RAT OUT!!!

[This message has been edited by RAT (edited 11-13-2000).]

[RifleMaster]

E19,

Thanks for the info!

Just doesn't seem fair that people voting in a KNOWN faulty system, when over the years they certainly have been instructed on the proper voting procedure, get a second chance if they failed to properly punch a simple hole. Then going to a method that is subjective and NOT absolute, i.e., susceptible to human error and bias judgement, is beyond belief ! One could argue that the voter just placed the punch on the paper leaving an indent and then changed their mind. Because knowing the system and with the punch in place, it would have been easy to properly push the punch through the ballot.

Certainly the system should be improved! But trying to correct for a faulty system in a few predominantly Demo. counties to influence a National election clearly is unfair! How can anyone take this hand job seriously when it is susceptible to human error and heavily biased by those doing the counting.

I have enough faith in the people of this country to believe that they won't let Gore and his crooks get away with this scam.

Sorry, had to edit my rushed comments.

Carl

[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 11-13-2000).]

[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 11-13-2000).]

[WS-G]

To all you whining Dems out there snivelling for a re-vote because of "confusing ballots" and "hanging chads":
(1) Read the f****** instructions on the GD ballot, f***wit! Learn your left from your right when you start flipping pages! (2) CLEAN UP THE BLOODY CARD WHEN YOU PULL IT OUT OF THE SLOT!

If you can't follow simple instructions, tell left from right (physically as well as politically <G> ), and follow common-sense rules to make sure your ballot isn't FUBAR because you failed to punch firmly and clean up your ballot so the nice little machine can read it... then your vote should not count!

[Whammer]

New Florida State Bumper Sticker:

If you can read this, you must be a Republican...

di

[Michael Robertson Moore]

Doug,

I think it reads:


If you can Patrick J. Buchanan
Al Gore read this
you must be a Howard Phillips
Ralph Nader Republican

MRM

[This message has been edited by Michael Robertson Moore (edited 11-13-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Michael Robertson Moore (edited 11-13-2000).]

[E19]

Originally posted by RAT:
E19,

Can I get you to back me up....I want to go back and have my hanging chads looked at on my scantrons, ACT,& SAT scores from the past. I know that I did not mean to mark some of the answers. You know they count those marks against you. I think it will raise my scores about 400 points...that makes a big boost in scores. By the way I scored 1150 on my SAT. It is still a long way from 1600 but if I can get you to help me I just might make it to 1550. LOL
HARVARD HERE I COME!!!! MAYBE I CAN GET AL AND TOMMY LEE JONES TO ROOM WITH ME...

Where is it going to end.

RAT OUT!!!

[This message has been edited by RAT (edited 11-13-2000).]

Rat,

I'm not an expert on the subject, but I don't believe those tests ever used punchcard tabulation. If you questioned the grading of your exams they would have rescored them at your request. An individual can take the tests as many times as they choose.

None of this is even remotely related to the ballot counting issue.


E19 OUT

[TMU]

Al Gore invented and graduated from the Electoral College . . . his degree is BS http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/tongue.gif

------------------
Do all you can . . . then do one more!

[RAT]

E19
"None of this is even remotely related to the ballot counting issue."

Sure it does. You voted in Fl. If you screwed up on the ticket all you had to do is ask for another, there is no limit to how many times you can screw up. As for the hanging Chad what about a marked chad ( when one does not erase the mark clearly enough for the machine to count it.) (anyone ever have that problem) That is why the vote system does not use scantrons like they have used in some states. (Ie. My district when I first started voting) When you put your ballot ticket in the box you have accepetd the results... PERIOD.

I re-read the the posts.
I see your point clearer now. You are going by the law. I agree.

As far as TEXAS goes:
Texas does not give much power to the government. We have always had hand counts. The old law stated about the margin of votes. Like the one county in Fl did today. If the vote was in a certain % of error then no full recount. Now any amout of margin can be recounted, in Texas. (guess we saw this comming) But the law is still ambigous. Just how lawers like it.

Anyway, STUPID PEOPLE STILL SHOULD NOT VOTE. I think we should go back to some type of poll tax. Where if you own land and real property then you can vote. If not you don't vote.

As GUY said the TAXES are killing me. They will all of you too. Just wait.

RAT OUT!!!!

[TonyM]

I haven't heard anything about the "absentee overseas" ballots they've been going on about, something like 1500 or so?. I'm assuming these are military personnel, and again I'll assume a Republican vote. With the way the tallies are swinging back and forth, wouldn't it be grand to have the whole thing come down to some PFC out in the field on some excercise? "Hey Smith, you're wanted back in HQ to select the next President" . I'm following this election like an overtime Stanley Cup final game, scores tied, 4th overtime period. Go Bush.

[SpeedPhreak]

im w/u tony. but the longer this goes on the more chance there is for error.. both accidental.. & unfortunatly, even more so.. intentional. so what happens when & if gore comes out on top by 50 votes? does it end there or will the bush campaign be like "bull sh!t.. we r going to count them for another 3wks until im the winner again"

close races like this are healthy i believe.. just think how many will vote in the next election... but the recount/revote issue far more un healthy http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/frown.gif

[Scout]

Re: absentee ballots. The media has started calling 'em "overseas" ballots, but that's not really accurate. Anyone who's going to be out of their state of residence at the time of the election can recieve absentee ballots. Not just soldiers and foreign service folks--expats, people who've vaction or job trip happens to be on election day, college students who live away from home.
Maybe the military portion--esp in floriday makes up the largest part of the absentee vote, i don't know.

What's happened with California? The other night, when the news was talkign about recountsi n New Mexico, Iowa, Wisconsin, New Hapmshire and oregon, they mentioned California said they werent really certain gore had won. Appearantly, they have over a million absentee ballots, mostly from conservative areas. With the number of Navy and Marine bases there, that's not really surprising. Wouldn't it be supremely ironic if Friday we find out Bush carried Cali's fifty odd electoral votes, and Florida becomes a moot point?

[LRSC Grunt]

I got this off of www.judicialwatch.org. (http://www.judicialwatch.org.)


FLORIDA VOTER FRAUD

INS “Backlog Reduction Program” Repeats 1996 “Citizenship USA” Scandal

INS Examiners Given Extra 40 Hours Paid Time Off For Rushing Naturalization


(Washington, DC) Based on discussions with an Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) source, Judicial Watch said today that the Florida District of the INS has engaged in a systematic program of rushing aliens through the naturalization process to meet INS headquarters “goals” by October 1, 1999 and October 1, 2000. In Florida, a new citizen can register to vote up to October 10th.

An INS source told Judicial Watch that the program is nearly identical to the now infamous 1996 “Citizenship USA” program, wherein thousands of aliens – some with criminal backgrounds – were improperly and illegally rushed through the naturalization process in order to obtain Democratic votes for the presidential election. The Florida INS effort has been termed the “Backlog Reduction Program,” – a neutral, bureaucratic-sounding title designed to lower the program’s visibility with the media and the general public. INS examiners and clerks who met or exceeded headquarters goals and quotas for the program were rewarded with various types of bonuses, including an extra 40 hours of paid time off.

Judicial Watch has also learned that, as part of this program, non-English speakers have had naturalization interviews illegally conducted in the alien’s native language, as well as a case where an alien without any residence, family or business ties in the US was naturalized only three days after returning to the US from an 11 - ½ month absence from the country.

“This sounds like another illegal ‘import-a-voter’ program by the Clinton-Gore Administration. Leave it to Clinton-Gore to desecrate the citizenship process.” commented Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton. Chairman Larry Klayman vowed that, “Judicial Watch will pursue these charges no matter who comes to occupy The White House.”

-----------------------------------



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ELECTION 2000
Did the INS import votes?
'Leave it to Clinton and Gore to desecrate
the citizenship process,' says legal group

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Jon E. Dougherty
© 2000 WorldNetDaily.com

The Immigration and Naturalization Service's Florida district was engaged in a "systematic" program of speeding aliens through the citizenship process in an effort to enhance Democratic voter turnout on election day, according to a legal watchdog organization.
Judicial Watch, a Washington, D.C.-based public-interest legal group that has launched a number of lawsuits against the Clinton administration, says an INS source told the group's lawyers the program in question "is nearly identical to the now infamous 1996 'Citizenship USA' program."

Then, Judicial Watch said, thousands of aliens -- some with criminal backgrounds -- were "improperly and illegally rushed through the naturalization process in order to obtain Democratic votes for the presidential election."

The Judicial Watch charges about the 1996 election have been confirmed by David Schippers, the former chief counsel for the House Judiciary Committee who prosecuted President Clinton's impeachment.

In his book, "Sellout," Schippers said, "My staff and I agreed that we needed to focus on the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), which appeared to be running out of control."

Specifically, Schippers revealed when he and his investigative team "came to the subject" of the INS, an "investigation by the General Accounting Office (GAO) and congressional committees had already indicated that the White House used the INS to further its political agenda.

"A blatant politicization of the agency took place during the 1996 presidential campaign when the White House pressured the INS into expediting its 'Citizenship USA' (CUSA) program to grant citizenship to thousands of aliens that the White House counted as likely Democratic voters," said Schippers -- a Democrat who twice voted for Clinton.

"To ensure maximum impact, the INS concentrated on aliens in key states -- California, Florida, Illinois, New York, New Jersey and Texas -- that hold a combined 181 electoral votes, just 89 short of the total needed to win the election," Schippers wrote of the '96 election effort.

Ironically, the former impeachment prosecutor found a major connection between the operation and Al Gore.

"The program was placed under the direction of Vice President Al Gore. We received from the GAO a few e-mails indicating Vice President Gore's role in the plan," Schippers said. "He was responsible for keeping the pressure on, to make sure the aliens were pushed through by September 1, the last day to register for the presidential election."

Four years later, in the lead-up to the 2000 election, the Florida INS ran an effort called the "Backlog Reduction Program," said Judicial Watch, which it describes as "a neutral, bureaucratic-sounding title designed to lower the program's visibility with the media and the general public."

As part of the program, INS examiners and clerks who "met or exceeded headquarters' goals and quotas [for naturalizing aliens] ... were rewarded with various types of bonuses, including an extra 40 hours of paid time off," the source told Judicial Watch.

The legal watchdog group said its source also reported that some of the naturalization processes were allegedly performed illegally.

"As part of this program," the group said, "non-English speakers have had naturalization interviews illegally conducted in the alien's native language, as well as a case where an alien -- without any residence, family or business ties in the U.S. -- was naturalized only three days after returning to the U.S. from an 11-and-a-half month absence from the country."

"This sounds like another illegal 'import-a-voter' program by the Clinton-Gore administration," said Judicial Watch president Tom Fitton. "Leave it to Clinton and Gore to desecrate the citizenship process."

"Judicial Watch will pursue these charges no matter who comes to occupy the White House," added chairman Larry Klayman.

In 1996, Schippers' book reveals, the Clinton administration was clearly "circumventing normal procedures for naturalizing aliens -- procedures that check backgrounds and weed out criminals -- and consequently they were handing out citizenship papers to questionable characters."

The impeachment prosecutor, who for years prosecuted Mafia cases in Chicago, said the idea for using the INS to rapidly naturalize new potential Democratic voters was first introduced to the White House by then-Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Henry Cisneros in a memo.

"The memo, from the California Active Citizenship Campaign (ACC), complained of a backlog of alien applications for naturalization in Los Angeles. It contained the magic words: 'INS inaction [on the backlog] will deny 300,000 Latinos the right to vote in the 1996 presidential elections [sic] in California,'" Schippers said, quoting the Cisneros memorandum.

Schippers said that INS Commissioner Doris Meissner -- who announced last month she would be stepping down -- warned President Clinton against taking such action via the INS, adding that it could be viewed as politically motivated.


-------------------------------------------

California in frenzy
over voter fraud
Many outraged about Democrat
mailer signed by Bill Clinton

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Julie Foster
© 2000 WorldNetDaily.com


In California, where it is illegal in most cases to ask voters for identification at the polls, there is a growing uproar over a Clinton-signed mailer urging Latinos to bring an unofficial paper "voter identification card" to the polls, potentially allowing non-citizens to vote.

First reported by WorldNetDaily yesterday in a column by Editor Joseph Farah, the ID card is attached to the mailer, which was paid for by the California Democratic Party.

"While every election is important, the November 7th election will determine our future for the next decade, and beyond," the letter reads. "The stakes are high for America's Latino families. And California is the critical battleground." It goes on to explain the purpose of the "voter identification card" attached to the letter. "Here is your personal Voter Identification Card. Sign your name, then detach your card. Bring your card with you to your polling place on Election Day. It will help your voting go more smoothly."

Bob Mulholland, campaign adviser for the California Democratic Party, at first denied the party sent mail targeted at certain racial groups. After he was read the letter, however, he acknowledged that a computer program is used to sort information obtained from voter files by category. In this case, newly registered Latinos were targeted for the mailer received in many households over the weekend. Voter files are accessible to campaigns, political parties and recognized research groups that request the information from county registrars.

But at least one recipient of the letter in Los Angeles County is not a U.S. citizen and so is not eligible to vote, despite the president's letter and ID card. The 20-year-old recipient and her mother, both from Guatemala, have spent several years haggling with the Immigration and Naturalization Service over obtaining their citizenship, but have not yet been successful. And she insists she has never registered to vote.

"It is absolutely illegal for a non-U.S. citizen to register to vote or vote in an election," said Shad Balch, spokesman for California Secretary of State Bill Jones. "The voter file is accessible for political purposes, so it is possible the Democratic Party was able to obtain the voter file."

However, if a recipient of the president's letter is not a citizen, questions arise as to the source of the California Democratic Party's information, since, as Balch indicated, the California Secretary of State's office would not have any information on the woman.

The Guatemalan woman does have a driver's license, but Department of Motor Vehicles records are sealed, thus preventing the California Democratic Party from obtaining personal information from that agency. It is possible the woman inadvertently registered to vote when she obtained her driver license, as voter registration information is included in that paperwork. But she claims she obtained her license from Sacramento -- not Los Angeles -- using special forms due to her status with the INS, thus decreasing the likelihood of an accidental registration.

WorldNetDaily is in the process of verifying the 20-year-old's registration status with the Los Angeles County registrar's office. Should the woman turn out not to be registered, Balch said he does not know how the Democrat Party obtained its information.

The spokesman, who indicated the secretary of state's office is aware of the Clinton mailer, confirmed that should any non-citizen take the paper ID card to a polling place, he or she would not be able to cast a vote since there would be no record of the person on the voter registration lists maintained by poll officials.

Nevertheless, there is a scenario in which votes may be cast with the aid of the Clinton card. According to Charles Bell, general counsel for the California Republican Party, if a voter has recently moved to a new precinct and attempts to vote at the polling place for his new location, he is required to show identification, as his name will not appear on the new location's voter registration rolls.

Such is the case with Clinton's paper ID cards. Were the young Guatemalan woman to appear at her polling place with the card, she may indeed be allowed to vote -- regardless of whether her name appears on the list of registered voters for that precinct.

Generally speaking, it is illegal in California to require voter identification and proof of nationality at polling places. In fact, no one can bring evidence of any kind to a polling place challenging any voters' eligibility. Such challenges can be made only to the registrar of voters and only after registration has taken place, Bell said.

In other words, there is no mechanism in California to prevent non-citizens from registering.

That system has led to rampant abuse, resulting in blatantly fraudulent registrations uncovered by the Institute for Fair Elections, a non-profit, non-partisan citizen group dedicated to exposing voter fraud. Karen Saranita, president of the corporation, decried the failures of California's voter registration requirements.

"There are no verification requirements. The only thing election officials are required to verify is that it is an actual address," she said.

Saranita's institute investigates elections nationwide and reports its findings to government officials and the media. The group has found registered "voters" named "Absolutely Nobody," "Lot O. Money," "Boy Toy" and "Punk Rock Freddie," to name just a few. Specific to the Golden State, "God" is registered in North Hollywood, and "Jesus Christ" is a voter in Santa Monica.

Unfortunately, according to Saranita, "Nobody cares." She appeared on "60 Minutes" the Sunday before the 1996 election, but the story generated little response from the public.

"I think until there is a big race -- a high profile race where the results have actually been changed by fraud -- nothing will change," she predicted. "The government is not good at taking preventative measures."

The activist said she gives credit to California Rep. Steve Horn, who attempted to pass legislation in Congress several years ago that would have required the use of Social Security numbers for voting. The measure failed.

Saranita described the farcical treatment of elections by the government compared to other regulated activities.

An election, she said, is "the only government-conducted activity where the citizen is not only not required to provide ID, but it is against the law to ask them for ID when they register to vote. You can't pay your taxes, you can't apply for a farm subsidy, you can't apply for a federal student loan -- in LA County, you can't get a license for your dog -- unless you show ID. Yet, the government does nothing about it, the people seemingly don't care and nothing changes, except it gets worse."

Saranita said her group is watching today's election closely.

-----------------------------------------


Voter fraud, again!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

© 2000 WorldNetDaily.com


Stop the presses! I mean it. Stop the election!

Something is going on in Washington and California that will have a great impact on tomorrow's election -- and it stinks to high heaven.

Let me start by telling you how I found out about it.

A very good friend of mine, who shall remain nameless, has a long-time live-in housekeeper from Guatemala. The housekeeper has a daughter who just turned 18. The immigration status of both mother and daughter has been pending for years. Papers have been filed with the Immigration and Naturalization Service. Hearings have been held. But they are not citizens.

This is very important: The daughter has not registered to vote.

But, a few days ago, the 18-year-old got a very attractively packaged "Dear friend" letter from Bill Clinton, paid for by the California Democratic Party.

Here's what it said (on one side in Spanish and on the other side in English): "While every election is important, the November 7th election will determine our future for the next decade, and beyond. The stakes are high for America's Latino families. And California is the critical battleground.

"That's why I'm writing. We need your help to elect a Democratic Congress.

"Despite our strong economy, many hard-working people still struggle to make ends meet. Quality, affordable health care, a world-class education, aging with dignity, and well-paid jobs are part of the American dream -- rather than an American reality -- for too many people.

"Electing a Democratic Congress is essential for our 'Families First' legislative agenda.

"Congratulations on your decision to register. Registering to vote is a basic responsibility of citizenship that far too many people ignore.

"Now that you are registered ...


"Can I count on you to vote Democratic on November 7th?

"Will you make an extra effort to elect Democrats to Congress -- and to your State Legislature -- by talking to your family, friends and neighbors?
"Remember: Your Vote is Your Voice.

"Su Voz, Es Su Voto. Make your voice heard on Election Day.

"Sincerely, President Bill Clinton"


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/images/20001106_Clintonltr.jpg


Clinton letter in English. Click for full size.

Below that letter is a P.S. that explains: "Here is your personal Voter Identification Card. Sign your name, then detach your card. Bring your card with you to your polling place on Election Day. It will help your voting go more smoothly."

Apparently all the recipient needs to do with this Voter Identification Card is sign it to be eligible to vote. Keep in mind, this was sent to a previously unregistered voter.

As my friend points out, only the U.S. government knows her age and pending residency status, and, obviously her Latino background. How did this information wind up in the partisan political hands of the California Democratic Party? And what kind of impact will a mailing like this -- obviously utilizing a government database for political purposes -- have on the California legislative races? How widespread is this fraud?

This is making my head spin. The recipient of this letter happens to live in congressional and state legislative districts that are very hotly contested in Southern California. But this appears to be a statewide mailing from the Democratic Party headquarters in Sacramento.

It's mind-boggling. The fraud is so blatant. Yet, not a peep out of the Republicans. They apparently won't even know what hit them. The polls in recent days show them making big gains in this once-invulnerable Al Gore stronghold state. A mass mailing like this effectively registering tens of thousands of potential Democratic voters days before the election is a secret weapon held back deliberately to avoid detection, scrutiny and publicity. After the election, the party will be happy to pay a fine for any illegalities involved. Clinton will be out of office and untouchable as always. There will be a new regime in at the INS. And it will all be swept under the rug.

And who knows if this technique is not being deployed by other state Democratic Party units? I don't doubt it for a minute.

This is voter fraud, pure and simple. And those responsible include the president of the United States, the Immigration and Naturalization Service, possibly the Census Bureau and certainly the California Democratic Party.






[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 11-15-2000).]

[Sharky]

I am ashamed of my association with the INS. Unless Bush wins and there is a restructuring of the INS, I will be looking for a new job soon. This is pathetic and embarrassing.

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[RifleMaster]

LRSC Grunt,

Will you e-mail your last posts on the California election fraud? I would like to share them with co-workers here in Orange County.

Thanks,

Carl/RifleMaster

[WS-G]

This one was written by an anonymous poster on a UK aviation website.

To the Citizens of the United States of America

In the light of your failure to elect a new President, and thus effectively to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective today.

Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all States, Commonwealths and other Territories, except Utah, which she does not fancy.

Your new Prime Minister (The Rt. Hon. Tony Blair, MP for benefit of that 98.9% of you who have until now been unaware that there is indeed a whole world outside your borders) will immediately appoint a minister for America, thus negating any need for further recounts or elections.

Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire will be circulated next year to determine whether any of you actually noticed any difference.

To aid in the transition of the former United States of America to a British Crown Dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:

1. You should look up 'revocation' in the Oxford English Dictionary. Then look up 'aluminium'. Then check the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it. Generally, you should raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. Look up 'vocabulary'. Using the same twenty seven words interspersed with filler noises such as 'like' and 'you know' is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. Look up 'interspersed'. There is no such thing as 'US English'. We will let Microsoft know on your behalf.

2. You should learn to distinguish the English and Australian accents. It really isn't that hard.

3. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as
good guys.

4. You should relearn your original national anthem, 'God Save The Queen', but only after fully implementing Rule 1. We would not want you to get confused and give up half way through.

5. You should stop playing American 'football'. There is only one kind
of football. What you refer to as American 'football' is not a very good game. The 1.1% of you who are aware that there is a world outside your borders may have noticed that no one else plays 'American' football. You will no longer be allowed to play it, and should instead play proper football. Initially, it would be best if you allowed girls to play. It is a difficult game. Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which is similar to American 'football', but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds and wearing full kevlar body armour — like a bunch of wooftahs). We are hoping to get together at least a US rugby seven-a-side team by 2005.

6. You will also cease referring to your baseball championship as 'The
World Series', unless you invite other countries to take part. As soon as you decide to do this, we will send over the Benedene School for Girls First Rounders XI to give the New York Yankees a good hiding and a lesson in etiquette, such as how to spit chewing tobacco juice without splashing it on one's uniform.

7. You should declare war on Quebec and France, using nuclear weapons if they give you any merde. The 98.9% of you who were not aware that there is a world outside your borders should count yourselves lucky. The Russians have never been the bad guys. Merde is French for '****'.

8. The 4th of July is no longer a public holiday. The 8th of November will be a new national holiday, but only in Great Britain. It will be called 'Indecision Day'.

9. All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and it is for your own good. When you start buying German or Swedish cars, you will understand what we mean.

10. Please tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us crazy.

11. When greeting our Head of State, it will only be necessary to go down on one knee.

12. Your lavatory paper is too thin and your newspapers too thick. To avoid the cost and disruption of changing over your production streams, you will immediately start using your newspapers as lavatory paper. This is a long overdue change in any event.

We are your faithful servants

Yours etc

The Government of Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II




[This message has been edited by William M Salter (edited 11-16-2000).]