aching knees

[dmgedgoods]

my right knee is feeling weak. I went on a 8 mile hike today, part on concrete, part on dirt and mud, and when i got back, my right knee felt weak. i dont like this feeling. it hurt to walk around while i was at work.
anybody with this same problem, or anybody that knows how to strengthen knees and the surrounding muscles?

[grrlcop74]

I'm no doctor, but I have managed to do my knees some damage on a regular basis. More than likely the uneven terrain, etc. caused you to strain the ligaments. I would suggest a trip to the doctor. The best thing is rest and ice in the immediate future if that's what the problem is, but you may need a splint or brace. Like I said, I'm no expert. I hyperextended my left knee once and it popped backwards so violently the ligament broke bone loose. It still locks back a little further than it should. Yeah, I'm a goofy looking wench.

As far as exercises, the doc should be able to give you some idea. I had a sheet of them but hell if I know where it went.

Point is, none of us here can diagnose you even if we had medical degrees...GO TO THE DOCTOR IF IT'S CAUSING A PROBLEM.

Kristen

[RAT]

I have managed to do my knees some damage on a regular basis. More than likely the uneven terrain, etc

I bet you have!!!!!!!!!!

Sharky said behind your head does not hurt the knees,

BOW CICKA BOW WOW

RAT OUT!!!

[dmgedgoods]

thank god i didnt hurt my knee THAT way!

[Sharky]

ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!

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F.I.D.O.

[grrlcop74]

As stated in another topic, what do you take me for, an amateur? HMPH.

<whipping out bleacher cushion>

Lightweight and easily portable!!

Kristen
P.S. I only put one leg behind the head at a time...goes back to the bad knees.

[SpeedPhreak]

knees are one of the easiest damaged joints in the body.. being in the military takes more of a tole & i could imagine that infantry & high speed groups would add even more stress.

i also say get to the doc. give it some rest. when u r in the gym dont do any smith machine squats & no seated leg extensions (both have been shown to possibly cause damage to the knees) & get on some glucosimine & chondrotine (sp). eat some pineapple before & after activities that can cause your pain.. it has bromelain (sp)in it.. in large doses.. not only does it help your body metabolize proteins but it acts as a joint anti-inflammitory.

hope this helps.

[Scotty]

Gentlemen, and lady, my pussy hurts. What can I do for it?

Scotty

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Some people call them "terrorists", these boys have simply been misguided

[Whammer]

I'm somewhat pigheaded, but I would do what I could (pending doctor's OK) to strengthen the muscles around the knee. It will help your legs take the punishment and maintain your resiliency. Anti-inflams can't hurt either, but you don't want to become dependent on them...

Grrlcop has permanent scarring from the rug burns...

[RogueExec]

Originally posted by SpeedPhreak:
when u r in the gym dont do any smith machine squats & no seated leg extensions (both have been shown to possibly cause damage to the knees) & get on some glucosimine & chondrotine (sp). eat some pineapple before & after activities that can cause your pain.. it has bromelain (sp)in it.. in large doses.. not only does it help your body metabolize proteins but it acts as a joint anti-inflammitory.

hope this helps.

Good post, dude.



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"Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."

[grrlcop74]

Originally posted by Whammer:
Grrlcop has permanent scarring from the rug burns...

It wasn't a rug dammit...it was a pool table. That felt shit HURTS.

Kristen

[Cammin1]

Jumping jacks maybe? After it rests for a while though. My knees used to get goofey and the more I did the more it strenthend the out side of my knee. The pain went away.

[BUG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Scotty:
[B]Gentlemen, and lady, my pussy hurts. What can I do for it?

Scotty

that is a pretty stupid attitude to have scotty.
people that ignore legimitate problems do nothing but hurt themselves worse.

i think SPEEDPHREAK gave a very good answer

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what the american public doesn't know, is what makes them the american public

[dmgedgoods]

if my knee is the equivelent of a pussy, then i get fucked a whole lot. I was stupid when i was younger (like thats really changed) and did lots of dumb shit that didnt help my knees. I also Downhilled for a while and that was the ahrshest thing i have EVER done to my knees...worse than rugby!
I will definetly see a doc soon. the pain is somewhat subsiding. i have been doing 1/4 squats with lots of weight, and, beilieve it or not, some jumping jacks. Thanks for all the help!

[dmgedgoods]

if my knee is the equivelent of a pussy, then i get fucked a whole lot. I was stupid when i was younger (like thats really changed) and did lots of dumb shit that didnt help my knees. I also Downhilled for a while and that was the ahrshest thing i have EVER done to my knees...worse than rugby!
I will definetly see a doc soon. the pain is somewhat subsiding. i have been doing 1/4 squats with lots of weight, and, beilieve it or not, some jumping jacks. Thanks for all the help!

[dmgedgoods]

BTW, i was talking to a ex-doc (sounds wierd) who did lots of work on runners. Anti Inflams only head the process of healing, because they slow the blood flow to the damaged muscle. She said 1/4 squats with weight would help break down the muscle a lil bit more and rebuild it even quicker, if i stayed on a good diet. The injury isnt muscle, but more or less the weakness of the muscle compared to the joint.

[Cree Warrior]

One reason why alot of people have bad knees is due to a muscle imbalance between the front and back of their legs. Most people that do weights do alot of squats and resistance exercises for the quads, but rarely anything for their hamstring area.
No one can be sure of your problem without a sports medicine doctor checking it out, but I know the trainers I've had have always emphasized doing hamstring and lower back work to prevent knee injuries.
What are your thoughts on this speedphreak?
There are also some good IT band stretches around that may help, look on the Runnersworld webpage.

Sua Sponte

[Scotty]

Bug, lighten the fuck up. There's a such thing as a sense of humour. Look it up.

Okay, you guys want REAL advice? As a former pre-med student with bad knees from a weird jerk in Abn school... (=slightly qualified to give advice) here goes:

Damaged, assuming you are doing some kind of weight training, try doing light leg extensions, light weight hamstring curls, and incline squats on a machine with stops (in case of failure), concentrate on isolating the knees while doing these. Make sure you warm up and stretch COMPLETELY before beginning these exercises, then warm down and stretch after. I do agree with Speed not to do heavy weight, but work your way up SLOWLY. If you feel ANY pain, STOP! Lower the weight, or try again another day.

If you run, don't do it on concrete, and until you build the muscles up more, don't run on sand. Find a track with asphalt or some other pourous material, even grass. Make sure you have WELL PADDED shoes to absorb the shock, and if need be wear knee braces when exercising or even hiking. Again, work up to distance slowly. If you feel pain, slow it down, walk, or stop.

On days when the knees are really bad, an ice pack will ease the inflamation. I'm against using cortizone creams and other topical anesthetics as they mask the pain and in some cases give you the false belief that you have healed your affliction. If you have to take anything, try aspirin or even acetomenophen (sp?) but don't pop 'em like M&Ms.

Diet is very important. I work out 5 days a week, going for strength rather than endurance, I take creatine (helps break down lactic acid, faster recovery and longer work outs) even though it's not completely tested, I take it before any prolonged physical activity. Try the serum as you don't have to load it and it tastes better. I believe this will help you. Also, eat bananas and/or kiwi. High potassium, high vit. C, and other goodies to build a strong body.

I hope this helps.

Scotty (the humourist, forensics instructor <3 yrs, App State, Physical Anthro Dept>, former pre-med son of a doc and a nurse, Heartlife cert'd CPR/First Emergency Care, body builder, former Army, geek with bad knees)

insert long sigh here.

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Some people call them "terrorists", these boys have simply been misguided

[dmgedgoods]

Scotty, very good advice. It follows my doctors orders almost to a T.

[SpeedPhreak]

cree.. i would agree w/you.. it just makes common sense.. strength imbalances in other areas leads to joint weakness.. the rotator cuff is a perfect example... so a strength imbalance in the leg/hip area could lead to weak knees. part of my foot problem is a weak muscle in my foot that other muscles are trying to compensate for.

scotty gives good advice on the running & most everything else, especially the stretching & warming up.. i will have to disagree w/the leg extension & squat machine advice though. as i stated earlier they have both been shown to cause knee damage... i will try & find the studies to explain the exact mechanism that causes the damage... i know when i used to do heavy knee extensions & could feel painfull pressure on my knees. however.. when u do squat.. DONT EVER stop at parallel.. continue your 1/4 squats or go ass to calf deep squats (use a very light weight until u have the technique)... & of course i advise a free weight squat.

as far as anti-inflams hindering healing.. a podiatrist once told me that by using an anti inflamitory you can actually speed the healing process.. then again he also wanted to fuse my ankle.. so i wont advise one way or another on that issue until i find out more.. but i dont think a natural substance like bromeliene will cause more harm than good.

[Whammer]

You might want to try lunges as well...

Have you squated (ie done serious leg strengthening exercises before?) If not, definitely don't screw around with crazy weight.

I definitely believe in strengthening your legs through all types of leg exercises. I agree with Speed that some long term effects could be negative with extensions and curls, but since you are young, and use light weight, and those exercises in moderation, you should be OK. Regardless, you definitely need strength that running doesn't fully provide. Moderate/heavy resistance on a stationary bike helps your quads as well...

di

[Scotty]

Speed, the main reason I reccomend the incline squat machine is that most of them have stops and it's very hard to go completely to parallel without your knees burying themselves in your chest. It almost forces you to do 1/4 squats. Plus, in that position, you rely more on your hams to do a lot of the work, alleviating yet still working the knees. Remember to ALWAYS push with your ankles and not with your knees!!

I'm totally against someone with bad knees doing lunges. The potential to hyper-extend and added pressure on the ACL is just too dangerous. That's more of an advanced exercise, even with low weight. (IMHO)

Not completely opposed to anti-inflamatorys (especially on a hemmorhoid!) but I think people abuse them too much. And, as I said, a lot of them have anesthetics that make you feel like you have healed. People like Tony Dorsett (if I remember correctly) were taking cort. shots then ripping their shoulders to shreds thinking it healed the problem.

Clarify "Bromeleine..." ? The only natural medicine close to that I know of is Bromaline, which is a very effective herbal decongestant and antihistimine.

Keep up the good work, damaged and you'll have massive knee muscles in no time. Just don't slack off on the rest of your body or you'll be whacked out of proportion!! = )

Scotty

PS - My pussy still hurts.

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Some people call them "terrorists", these boys have simply been misguided

[SpeedPhreak]

i know that my spellling of bromeliene is off.. but its an enzyme found in pineapple that helps to metabolize proteins & also acts as an anti inflam.

i agree on abuse.. i try to stay away from as much medication as i can.. when i get sick i wont even go to the doctor unless i dont get rid of it after about a week. i try not to take aleve's or advils unless i really need one.. & i know all about the cort(izone?) shots.. my foot doctor gave them to me & i thought it was a step in healing.. just masked the pain.. once it wore off it hurt just as bad.

ok.. i missed the "incline" part of the machine.. i dont have any experiance w/that particular piece of equipment so i wont say n e thing on that... in general though im against machines of n e type... they only strengthen in a single plane... however for certain rehab type situations that may be the way to start... but i feel will eventually still cause problems. i totally agree w/the lunge.. even w/perfect joints your technique needs to be flawless to avoid injury.

[Whammer]

Dammit. I give up...

Screw it, just do power-cleans and snatches...

[FutureMustang]

dmged,

Go to the doctor.

As for the rest of you giving out advice, are you doctors, nurses, or physical therapists?

Scotty, I don't want to start a war here, but being pre-med in college and being able to dispense medical advice are two completely different things. Taking Chem, Organic Chem, Biology, and Physics qualify you to classify the phylum of a crab, not diagnose knee problems.

Jim

[Scotty]

Mustang Jimmy, no harm-no foul.

I agree, if this man's problems are bad enough he should go seek PROFESSIONAL help. But he also asked for advice from those of us with experience. My experience is: I have bad knees and have had to work on strengthening them. I have not only studied gross anatomy, osteology, forensic pathology, et al. but I've taught it (those that don't know, teach??!! LOL).

All I've shared with Damaged is what my "advice" based on experience has done for me. The rest is common sense.
Nothing I've told him was a diagnosis of any kind. Whether he has crushed cartilage, a strained ACL, water on the knee, or rugburn, I wouldn't even begin to hypothesize... that's experience I don't have.

Take care,

Doctor Scotty, MaD, (well)PHeD, (un-)kEMpT, KMFDM, NIN, PCH, unPC, whatever else I can't think of.


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Some people call them "terrorists", these boys have simply been misguided

[dmgedgoods]

KMFDM!!! awesome group if i ever heard one lol

[LOCHNESS3]

This is RAT!!!!

HSDH
YEAH! There you go. Full squats too done olympic style. Full Olympic style squats, power cleans and power snatches, standing overhead press, if you are a REAL man do the old Olympic weightlifting movement of clean and press...a full body workout if there ever was one. Also high pulls and Romanian deadlifts are great. Romanian deadlifts are awesome for the hamstrings. Abdominal/midsection work too.

I just ran this by Lou Hernadez Univ of Houston weight coach and Beth Shepard, Phd.(Yes, Capt. Mike Shep's wife). Neither have heard of this OLYMPIC squat type lift.

Are you talking about full squats? This is where you go below comfort level and break parallel with your butt going below your knees.

RAT OUT!!!

[SpeedPhreak]

i never diagnosed n e thing either.. he asked a question & i gave the best advice i could.. why should i tell hime to go to a doctor when 3 others already did.. i offered new information. this board & its members & past post (even though i get picked on from time to time) has helped me out tremendously.. i try to offer what i can about things i am knowlegeable about... nutrition, bodybuilding, strength training, sport injury.. no.. i dont go to school for them.. but i graduated in the top 10% of my class.. blew my recruiters mind when he saw my asvab score.. & i read everything i can get my hands on... basically i have a fairly high level of intelligence. i dont have a piece of paper certifing me as a trainer or a doctor or a nutritionist but i read the same studies many of these people read & probably some more on top of that... if i dont know about something entirely that i need i will find the info before i respond. i have bad rotator cuffs, ive broken a femur, have severe problems w/my foot/ankle, & have broken almost all of my toes & fingers/hand bones... all sports related... does that qualify me? no.. but while researching my own problems i come across info on other problems. i feel i am more qualified than some people w/the piece of paper u think makes someone knowledgable & qualified. that piece of paper doesnt make the man.. the man makes the paper. someone had to figure all this stuff out at one time or another.. where are their certifications? basically (for me anyway) ill trust information whether it comes from my doctor, your doctor, or a book.. as long as its quality.

yes, the "olympic squat" that dropouthater is talking about is probably a full squat... ass to calf. which is safer than stopping at parallel.. think about it.. your knee is at its weakest when at a right angle (parallel).. u r trying to bring several hundred extra pounds of weight that has a downward momentum to a complete stop at the weakest point... that doesnt make much sense... by going past parallel you controll the weight on a safer plane for the knee. studies using electronic sensors also show that a significantly hight number of muscle fibers are recruited by squating deep. as far as the jerk & clean movements.. i know you were joking.. performed improperly can cause some pretty bad knee injuries.. as well as hernia & back problems. as w/any info on the net, or any where else for that matter.. its there.. read it & draw your own conclusions.

the original post dmged stated his knee felt weak. he asked if n e one had the same problem & if n e one knew how to strengthen the knee & surrounding muscle.. my self as well as grrlcop74, hatter, cree, scotty, myself & others all offered advice... i thought that was the point of a forum. it appears dmged went to a doctor.. who verified a lot about what we were discussing.. my views are somewhat different than others.. that doesnt make mine or others wrong.. just different opinions.. people go to 3 or 4 doctors to get different opininos.. if all of this was set in stone then why are there different opinions in the professional world?

i think ive rambled enough. ill shut-up for now.

[FutureMustang]

Let me know when you get that piece of paper certifying you as a trainer, a nutritionist, a doctor, a nurse, or a physical therapist. That's when I'll start listening.

[grrlcop74]

Anybody here qualified to diagnose "panties-in-a-wad" syndrome?

Kristen

[Dark Helmet]

Originally posted by SpeedPhreak:
....blew my recruiters mind when he saw my asvab score.. & i read everything i can get my hands on... basically i have a fairly high level of intelligence.....

....and a fairly high opinion of yourself, for being pretty NON-qualified. Call me silly, but I personally take those degrees and the experience inherent in a professional career fairly seriously.

Aren't you the same guy that posted all the "Jews in the CIA" stuff?

Sign me,

A guy with a fairly low level of intelligence.

[dmgedgoods]

hmmm...panties-in-a-wad syndrome. TAKE EM OFF!!! Go Commando http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif
I have listened to everything that you guys have offered. I was looking for people who have encountered the same problem I am having, and there are quite a few. I have also taken into account what the "docs" have said. I appreciate all the feedback, and will look into what you all have said.
Thanks!

[LOCHNESS3]

RAT here.

Unless they have extensive Olympic Weightlifting and/or powerlifting experience PLUS a certified strength and conditioning certification, their opinion doesnt mean shit.

OK!!!! I'm lost???? What part of PHD don't you understand?

I also spoke with Brad Roll. If you keep up with Olympic lifting you should know who he is. He told me that he too has never called
a deep squat an Olympic squat. That term is new.
SpeedPhreak: How you described the squat is correct. That is refered to as a full squat.
if HSDH would have finished school and play beyond pewee athletics he would have known this.

SPEED good post.

RAT OUT!!!

[SpeedPhreak]

tack.. i do think highly of my self in some areas.. other areas i lack but try to improve. no, im not the one who posted about the jews in the cia... i dont even remember commenting on that particular thread.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally posted by SpeedPhreak:
tack.. i do think highly of my self in some areas.. other areas i lack but try to improve. no, im not the one who posted about the jews in the cia... i dont even remember commenting on that particular thread.

My bad, Speed. Got you mixed up with someone else. Need to learn to read more carefully.

[soup82]

Without being able to do a physical exam, here's some advice.

1. Go see a doc, a good sports doc. Follow his advice religiously. Stomp, Stomp, Stomp. It's your career, listen to the experts.

2. Your body has to heal itself, everything you do to help that speeds up recovery. First, stop the inflamation. Fastest acting and most effective is ice. Plain, cheap, frozen H20. Three times a day, take one ice cube, run it around the affected area until it melts. Repeat for five minutes. Take a five minute break, repeat, take a break and repeat. You will see results faster than any other method or drug.

3. Physical therapy. Goal is to strengthen the muscles supporting the joint and improve blood flow to the injured area. Best for the knees is stationary bike on light resistance, and water exercises, particularly the kickboard. Start with one lap, rest, do two laps, rest, three laps, rest and come back down the pyramid. If it hurts, don't do it. Try to build up to a 10 lap pyramid. Use an upper body exerciser for aerobic workouts.

4. See a doc

5. See a doc

6. Anti-inflammatories such as ibuprofen. Three actions - anti-inflammatory, analgesic (pain killer) and anti-pyretic (fever). Analgesic and antipyretic take effect quickly. The anti-inflammatory effect can take from 7 days to 1 month before it starts having an effect. Ice takes about 2 minutes. Trade-offs are ease of application versus side effects. Again, talk to a doc.

Cheers,

Patrick LaRocque

Biggest problem I had with my guys was getting them to take recovery serious. Instead it was the FIDO attitude. Good in the bush when you have no choice, but if you intend to do this for years, not a good idea.

[Scotty]

I forgot about the water works. Swimming, flutter kicks, all that jazz... really helpful with minimal resistance! Thanks, Patrick, that's probably one of the most important mediums for physical therapy and the rest of us missed it.

Can we get the rest of the "Unlicensed Quacks Committee" to agree on this one?

Scotty

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Some people call them "terrorists", these boys have simply been misguided

[Ted]

"Unlicensed quacks?", that must be my cue to enter.

I useta be pre-med also, but now I am a medical student (I was a medic also, in another lifetime). Just have to say that there are probably about just as many different rehab opinions among the sports medicine docs as there are here on this board.

If I had to give my semi-perfessional opinion, I would go with Soup's suggestion.

[Hotmike]

After 12 years of Humping a ruck I can offer the following:

1- Hunch your shoulders forward

2- Lean forward about 10 to 15 degrees (upper body)

3- NEVER let your knees lock out while "walking"

4- keep a slight bend in knees (you'll feel the stress picked up by your hip adductors instead... and thats a whole new muscle you've never hurt before)

5- Eat 500 to 800 MG of Vitamin "M" (motrin) before and after each ruck.

6- See the corpsman about "Non-specific Vaginitis"... and press on!

Hotmike

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Diplomacy is the Art of saying "Nice Doggie" till you find a huge rock to crush his skull with...

[MFFI]

i disagree with soup... i think you should see a doc