A letter from a professor to US News.. this will boil your blood.

[Triggerfifty]

US News & World Report, 4 Oct 99; Letters

HOW DISTURBED I WAS TO SEE YOUR article in the September 6 issue about ROTC
scholarships as a means of providing funds for a college education. The
education associated with ROTC is a contradiction to the academic freedom
enjoyed at university campuses; military training on college campuses, in
fact, makes a mockery of education. Far from taking a global view of
learning, ROTC encourages narrow patriotism and a philosophy of any means
(killing people and polluting environments) to the end. The institutionalized
mistreatment of gays and lesbians in the military and sexual harassment of
women are par for the course.
KATHERINE VAN WORMER
Professor of Social Work
University of Northern Iowa
Cedar Falls, Iowa

This an Air Force Captains reply:

Dear Professor Van Wormer,
I just finished reading your letter to the editor in U.S. News & World
Report magazine (4 Oct) and was compelled to address your shockingly
prejudiced, obviously uninformed and frankly laughable viewpoint on ROTC
and the military in general.

Your unenlightened perspective belies a reckless if not tragic ignorance
that brings disrepute upon the institution that employs you. It is a shame
you felt obliged to comment on something you apparently know so little about.
I
wonder if in your extensive research in "Social Work" you ever encountered
someone who's actually served in the armed forces? The answer goes without
saying. Allow me to be your first.

It troubles me that you must be reminded that the academic freedom you enjoy
and cherish so dearly was purchased with the precious lives and blood of
many a noble soldier on wretched battlefields here and abroad over the past
223 years. Do you honestly believe freedom of any sort comes without
tremendous cost? Are you so willfully naive to think you'd enjoy the same
license if you were a professor in China, Iran, North Korea, or the Sudan?

How many young men and women have you talked to lately who spent their
Christmas holiday patrolling some godforsaken minefield like Bosnia, or their
5th wedding anniversary in a row at sea, or the birthday of their first
daughter stopping a madman from achieving his goal of ethnic cleansing? Tell
me. Do you really think we acknowledge a call to the profession of arms so we
can "kill people and pollute environments?" To believe such sophomoric
rubbish demands some fairly sophisticated cerebral blinders.

I have served in the U.S. Air Force for 11 years now, flying long hours over
countless global hot spots, and I have not once encountered a fellow soldier,
sailor, or airman who subscribes to a "narrow patriotism and a philosophy of
any means." Not one. Rather, they are ladies and gentlemen of highest
caliber, selfless devotion to the cause of freedom, and tireless service to
an often-thankless nation. Your mischaracterization is so off base it
borders on unforgivable. It would seem to me that your Department of Social
Work would have whole syllabi devoted to the role of the military in the
field of social work. I can think of no greater social service than an
institution committed to risking the lives of its members to preserve and
defend the very citizenry from which it hails.

How many oppressed refugees, disaster victims, and starving children have
been mercifully delivered from their plight by the military in just the last
decade? Need we reflect on the factthat the whole of Western Europe owes its
freedom from Nazi fascism to availing few in olive drab and khaki? Perhaps
you should invite a concentration camp survivor or a Kosovar Albanian to give
a guest lecture extolling the magnificent "social services" they've
benefited from at the hands of the military.

Finally, I find it humorous that academics like yourselves who indoctrinate
our youth with the dogma of "positive tolerance" for every aberrant lifestyle
cannot find it within yourselves to tolerate an institution to which you owe
your very peace, comfort, and well being. It is an amusing double standard.
My exhortation to you is to get out of the rarified air in your office, walk
over to your ROTC detachment in Lang Hall and interact with the men and women
in uniform and those aspiring to wear it. Perhaps
then you will wake up from your slumber of conscious ignorance, join the
ranks of the enlightened, and offer a prayer of thanksgiving to God for the
freedoms you take for granted and those who sacrifice daily on your behalf to
secure it.

In Service To You,
Capt Jonathan Clough

[Ursula]

I've sent Ms. Van Wormer an email message outlining my feelings regarding her letter. I receieved an AFROTC scholarship, but later declined the scholarship and took the classes at my own expense. In 5 years of college I never found another group there as dedicated to academic success, community service, leadership, and all-around excellence as the ROTC detachment.

If you'd like to respond to Ms. Van Wormer, her email address is Katherine.VanWormer@uni.edu.

-U

[RAT]

UUUHHHH RRRRRRAAAAA!!!!!!
CAPT CLOUGH.

LFOGOOTW (Lead, Follow,Or Get Out,Of The Way)
Semper Fi
RAT OUT!!!

[Snake]

Wonder if Prof. Van Wormer realizes that if it wasnt for us "Any Means" types in green/blue/Woodland Cammie, her "spirit of academic freedom" would be nonexistant. Her alternative is to learn Chinese and pick out a Mao suit......

Snake II
25th ID(L)
"Mao, more than ever"

[Michael Robertson Moore]

Well, I was tempted for a second there to send a message to Prof. Van Wormer, but then I remembered the wisdom of Vanessa Bell:

"One ought to go one's way without
argument or fuss and without attempting
to make the stupid see one's point
of view."

Then again, maybe I'll forward to her the words of Doc MacLeod from Tobias Wolff's "In Pharaoh's Army":

"Laddy, without war we'd all be
swinging in the fucking trees.
It's God's own university and
anyone who says different is a
self-deluding fairy."

[pn]

I know it's just stooping to her level but, damnit, sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
--
Ms. VanWormer,

I am curious; have you taken a single class through a ROTC program? Have you studied the structure of US government, world history or political philosophy on your journey to the hallowed position of "Professor of Social Work"? By the tone and content of your letter, one is compelled to conclude that you have not. Students in your classes need to hear thoughtful discourse and reasoned argument, not demagoguery. Your letter, rife with ridiculous generalizations and unsubstantiated claims, is an embarrassment to yourself, your university, and the academic community. In the future, you would do well to research topics before speaking on them; a silver tongue cannot help a mind of lead, a fact which you have demonstrated nicely.
--

-pn

[JOE-BOO]

see Ursala....that is who I was talking about in my bio....Get me and her in a dark room both tied down in serperate chairs and I ccould brainwash her in 1 hour flat....

[nightinsertion]

It's a damn shame that people to this day still have this warped, morbid since of my beautiful armed services. She's the type that would be held hostage in some foreign country and wonder where in the hell is her country to rescue her right after bad- mouthing the military. That professor should spend a little while in a country like Iraq or Somalia, or Bosnia and tell me should would not come running back with a military escort. But we fight for all, even those who don't appreciate the sacrifices we make.

[LRSC Grunt]

IT IS THE SOLDIER....

not the reporter,
Who has given us freedom of the press.
IT IS THE SOLDIER,
not the poet,
Who has given us freedom of speech.
IT IS THE SOLDIER,
not the campus organizer,
Who has given us freedom to demonstrate.
IT IS THE SOLDIER,
not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trail.
IT IS THE SOLDIER Who salutes the flag,
Who serves under the flag and
Whose coffin is draped by the flag
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.
Charles M. Province

[Ursula]

My letter to Ms. Van Wormer was not so much an attempt to make her see the error in her judgement. It was, instead, a pointed letter describing my time in ROTC, what I learned, the caliber of people in my detachment, and my opinion that of all scholarships I was awarded for college, my AFROTC scholarship was the only one that provided not just tuition money, but the resources of an entire organization/detachment for studies in leadership, time management, academic excellence, community service, and teamwork.

You can read Ms. Van Wormer's bio on the UNI Dept. of Social Work website. She is a teacher and promoter of peace and gay/lesbian rights, which in it's own right is commendable. Unfortunately, Ms. Van Wormer seems to prejudicedly condemn any organization that doesn't share her views, and in this instance it was the US military and its ROTC program. The Boy Scouts are probably next on her list. I think any help we can give Ms. Van Wormer in expanding her knowledge and experience with various social groups will be to her benefit as a teacher of social work, and will help ensure her students a complete education instead of one based on personal biases and prejudices.

-U

[Jeff Rambo]

Did any of you ever receive replies?

------------------
Sincerely,
Jeff A. Rambo
NBTNDT
------------------
Disrespect cannot be commanded, it must be earned.

[FutureMustang]

I have a great story regarding this letter.

Jan/early Feb '00

I was attending my Church Bible study group when I was handed a copy of the US News containing this letter. The man who handed it to me knew I was planning on the Army after college, and he wanted me to read the letter and share some insight on the letter he had just written to Professor Van Wormer.

He was upset on two fronts: Not only is he an alumnus of Northern Iowa, but his wife is a former United States Marine. The man writing the letter: Kurt Warner. Weeks after leading the St Louis Rams to a Super Bowl victory, the NFL MVP was taking time to write in support of the work done and the sacrifices made by US Servicemen and Women.

Sometimes you find support in the darnedest places. Way to go Kurt!

Jim

[spectresos]

WOW...
I sent this woman a letter when this first appeared in USNAWR. Never got a response, but from what I have heard from other military personel, she got a shit load of letters in the past few years! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif
Nice work on digging up her credentials, and they dont suprise me one bit. The blind leading the blind...

Mo

"Just a quarter-mile more..."

[Daredevil]

This attitude from academics should hardly surprise anyone. The entire academic profession is pretty much dominated by neo-Marxists nowadays who hate this country and any symbol it has. This woman seems like just another example.

I defy anyone to find me a single conservative in a liberal arts department at any state university in this country.

[mdb23]

DAREDEVIL,

The entire academic profession? Wow. Are you able to validate that statement?

Have you actually visited every university and college in the United Sates and talked with all of the liberal ats profs regarding their social and political views? Have you found ALL of them to be Neo Marxists? Perhaps you conducted a massive phone campaign in order to receive your data.

However, it is possible that you are merely making an uninformed generalization based upon the stereotype of a liberal arts prof, or you are judging an entire community based upon your limited interaction with a few of its' members.

BTW, I am going to defy you by stating that I know quite a few liberal arts profs that are conservatives with a capitol "C". No, I will not post their names on a public forum without their permission.

Maybe I can hook you up with one of my old (conservative) logic profs who can help you with your "inductive reasoning" problem. http://www.stopstart.redhotant.com/smilie/sardonic.gif

mdb23

[Ursula]

Daredevil,

Your statement saying the "entire academic profession is pretty much dominated by neo-Marxists nowadays who hate this country and any symbol it has" is as off-point and inaccurate as Ms. Van Wormer's statement about all ROTC detachments making "a mockery of education".

In our outrage at this one person's views, let us not join her ranks.

Regards,
Ursula

[NMBR5ML]

I'm sure any active duty guys who have tried to take classes off-duty would agree that this attitude is somewhat widespread. As I started off as a Criminal Justice major I took almost all core courses and it was great. Many professors were ex-cops, ex-military or both. They would go out of their way to accomodate me. Of course, inevitably, I had to break down and take English Comp., Calculus, etc. I don't know where these people live, maybe in their offices, but they are very out of touch with the real world. On the whole my experience with non-AJS professors has been a negative one. The women are childish and egotistical and the guys only care about trying to bang 18 year old chicks. On more than one occasion, listening to some pedantic horseshit I wanted to break somebody's fucking neck. Just my personal experience.....

[garett]

I take shit pretty well every day from people at my university for being an Army Reservist. I've basically given up on defending the military. It doesn't need any defending. I still think they're just stupid hippies though.

[spectresos]

Lemme get this one straight...
You take shit... meaning you let other people give you a bunch of shit about your chosen profession...
Who GIVES A SHIT what people think about you and your choices - they are yours! Stop defending the military - we have and Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps to do that - start defending yourself! If you want to live a sucessful life, be a part of an honorable profession, screw what people "think".

Mo

"Just a quarter-mile more..."

[Daredevil]

No, as a matter of fact, I am not going by my own experience in this matter.

In "Trotsky Without Orchids" literary critic Harold Bloom, in an interview recorded by Mark Edmundson, described current faculty politics as "Stalinism without Stalin. All of the traits of the Stalinists in the 1930s and 1940s are being repeated in the universities of the 1990s."

When this appeared in the Wall Street Journal a letter came from a professor who served as faculty advisor to College Republicans at Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo stating, "Republican faculty members operate on a 'don't ask, don't tell' basis to the best of our ability. At official faculty meetings, Democratic fund-raising requests, political buttons, bumper stickers and petitions are very publicly circulated. putting non-tenured faculty in a very difficult position." She went on to say that after she was outed a department colleage informed her "we never would have hired you if we knew you were a Republican."

Moderate conservative David Horowitz, who has toured colleges along the country, states in many of his articles that professors with definite Marxists views, and using predominately Marxists texts to teach their courses while having no texts from conservative intellectuals, have created a what he calls a "Campus Brown Shirt" phenomenon.

In the words of Huey Long, "When fascism comes to America it will call itself anti-fascism."

Let's also take into account the sort of speakers faculty typicaly seek out to speak at campus events. Angela Davis, bell hooks, Khalid Muhammed, Kwame Ture (up until his death), Johnetta Cole, Marian Wright Edelman, among others. They are usually paid exorbinate fees to do so. In 1998, Angela Davis (former card carrying member of the American Communist Party and once their candidate for Vice President) charged fees of $20,000 for one speaking engagement. Compare that to the fact that the only time conservative speakers are invited it is usually done by a small student organization, and often at the personal expense of the speaker.

Add to the fact that political cronyism often adds to the problem. Take for example the University of California School of Journalism at Berkely. Michael Savage, political conservative, premier radio talk show host in the San Francisco Bay Area, with a doctorate, two masters and 18 published works to his credit. Mr Savage applied for an opening for a new Dean at the UCB School of Journalism. Who got the job? A pig farmer named Orville Schell, who wrote a few books on China and a couple Op-Ed pieces. Schells real credentials is the fact that he is an old time Berkely radical of the sort that faculty head Troy Duster wants working there. Despite the idea the universities are supposed to be for the sharing of ideas, their hiring and promoting practices speak volumes that they want no diversification of ideologies.

I know of events where when conservative speakers were invited by a student organization to speak at CUNY, Stanford, and Columbia they were, quite literally, run off of the campus. They had to do their speaking engagements at off campus community centers and even then the large groups of protesters followed. These were not reactionaries, in fact, some were former leaders of the New Left back in the 60's who have since changed their ideological outlook.

So in short, no this is not based on narrow personal experience. You can go ahead now and give me some anecdotal evidence to your end. Point to one tenured old guy and say, "Hey, he's conservative." Big deal.

[mdb23]

DAREDEVIL,

The article is merely the opinion of one man, and is no more a justification for your statement than any other "opinion", and the actions which you speak of occured at some of the most notable liberal strongholds in the country. This is a poor justification for stating that every university/college is Fascist.

As for having speakers run off campus, wouldn't that be attributable to the protestors rather than to the "Marxist" faculty?

BTW, my university paid for Oliver North and Rush Limbaugh to speak on campus, so I think I mught have a slight justification for stating that not ALL universities are anti-conservative. The aforementioned speakers, coincidentally, were on a nation wide tour of college campuses, so a market must exist somewhere.

My problem isn't with the statement that some campuses are decidedly liberal in their ideologies, it is with the statement that ALL colleges/universities and ALL professors are Marxist. Providing that everything in your previous post is true, you are still not able to say that EVERY professor is Fascist.

Finally, if you state that every "x" is "y", and someone finds an "x" that is not "y", then it is a big deal. It means that you were wrong.



[This message has been edited by mdb23 (edited 01-14-2001).]

[grrlcop74]

Originally posted by Triggerfifty:
US News & World Report, 4 Oct 99; Letters

sexual harassment of women are par for the course.

KATHERINE VAN WORMER
Professor of Social Work
University of Northern Iowa
Cedar Falls, Iowa

I really hate it when feminazis who have never served decide they are qualified to speak for me. It is "assistance" I can do without. In my years in the Army, I only ran into one male who truly had a problem working with females, and we took care of him right nicely--and it didn't involve running to the local EO representative and whining like little girls. It's been almost five years and I bet he's still in the fetal position sucking his thumb. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif Ahhh....I wish I was still in.

Kristen

[OldSFer]

-

[This message has been edited by OldSFer (edited 01-17-2001).]

[Aqaba]

Daredevil -

Though I'm pretty far to the left of you (and Old SFer, I imagine), I've seen enough "Left McCarthyism" on campuses to sympathize with your anger. But you're wrong to dismiss Orville Schell as a "pig farmer." Though he may not be loaded down with graduate degrees, he has a long history of intelligent reporting on everything from China to the meat industry to Jerry Brown to the struggle of the Marin county town of Bolinas to stay off the map (literally.) He earned his job through practical experience, not meaningless "academic journalist" laurels. Isn't that the sort of thing conservatives usually applaud?

[OldSFer]

.

[This message has been edited by OldSFer (edited 01-17-2001).]

[AG Turd]

Originally posted by grrlcop74:
and we took care of him right nicely--and it didn't involve running to the local EO representative and whining like little girls. It's been almost five years and I bet he's still in the fetal position sucking his thumb. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif Ahhh....I wish I was still in.


Kristen,

Ya gotta love that type :-)
Men who don't want to serve with women (at least for the most part of their careers) usually pick a job where the chances of male/female encounters are slim. Unless they can't hack it there, and end up in my nice support field where they encounter the kristen type.
Thanks for helping the man out. I wonder if it is not the same one i ran into the other day?




------------------
The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success.

[E19]

Daredevil,

Like Oldsfer I am married to a tenured university professor and from my experience I would have to disagree with your postion also....I don't have to agree with everyones position on every issue, but it certainly stimulates my mind to listen....Along the road thru life my views have changed for the better because of having had the opportunity to talk with people with different perspectives and philosophies than my own....Despite being an academic my wife is not a commie-pinko either as you would suggest.




[This message has been edited by E19 (edited 01-14-2001).]

[Daredevil]

Wait a second here, I give examples from colleges around the country, you guys come on here talking about your wife being a professor and SOME of the faculty that you've talked to at a university and all of a sudden I'm the one with narrow vision?

I did get this information from other resources. Perhaps a weakness in my research is that I'm not going to every university in the country, but despite whatever opinions you guys have I'm sure you haven't visited them all either.

Fine, I know it's not an absolute fact and I probably shouldn't have worded it that way. But it's definitely a trend. Particularly at the more elite and prestigious institutions. Maybe the faculty at Wotsamotta U. is more conservatively inclined, but you aren't going to find that at any of the Ivy Leagues, or many of the larger more prestigious state run institutions. I feel my own university was more conservative than most but I still encountered ultra leftists in almost all the humanities classes. If any of you who were Vietnam vets had to sit one day through "The History of the Vietnam War" class that I took you'd be ready to fight. Statements from the teacher like, "If I ordered you to blow up a class full of kindergardners like the Phoenix Program did would you do it?" Questions were asked this way daily, and I was the only one who took issue with it. The ROTC students in the class sat silent and told me after class one day that I shouldn't bother.

That's my own experience with it. I didn't judge the entire academic profession by it. By I have seen evidence enough to see where the academic field is heavily slanted. Just look at the "Historians defending the Constitution" ad that popped up in the NY Times during the Clinton Impeachment. Calling the Academics listed on there Historians takes huge liberties with the title Historian. They were using their academic credentials to further their own political agenda.

mdb those protests were faculty led. In fact, one speaker was a conservative radio talk show host who happened to be black. They called him every racial epithet you could think of, and the irony that many of the people hurling those epithets were educated white liberal faculty members was lost on the protesters.

I'm also not saying conservative speakers never speak at schools. I'm saying that they don't usually speak at events that or sponsored by faculty nor are they invited by the faculty, it's usually a student organization. G. Gordon Liddy spoke at my school under similar circumstances and sure enough, when question time came up there were some grad students and faculty members that started grilling him about Watergate and whatever else. He actually handled the situation remarkably well.

While the Angela Davis' et al. are invited to speak at commencement ceremonies etc. how many commencement ceremonies do you think Rush Limbaugh, Tom Clancy, Judge Bork, or other conservatives will be invited to speak at?

[This message has been edited by Daredevil (edited 01-15-2001).]

[NMBR5ML]

My wish is that universities started educating, and stopped practicing politics, or activism of any kind. Give faculty members a curriculum to follow; if they want to add to this, they must have the additions approved as facts. Non-attribution/ Academic Freedom should apply to students...not faculty members. Teach what's in the book...keep your G.D. Mother F. opinion to yourself. Remember these institutions receive public funding. Our tax dollars allow these people to prance around in drag cursing the media smear campaign against promiscuous anal sex, or some other crap, while they dig deep for the funding to pay the football coach $800,000 dollars a year. I'll admit my views are limited to experiences at two universities, one in So. Indiana and one in So. Arizona...

[LRSC Grunt]

OldSFer, E19,
I understand that your wives probably dont fit into that profile. However, I have run into some college professors who were very extreme in their views and liked to impose their beliefs rather than enlighten. To make it even worse, they play favoritism in the form of a red pen. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/mad.gif


I also find it to be pretty unique that you two are married to professors. Nice story BTW, OldSFer. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 01-15-2001).]

[Daredevil]

Aqaba - I realize that Schell has some works published but it was still more of a matter of political cronyism than the most qualified candidate getting the job. It was considered such an outrage that Savage filed a lawsuit against Berkeley over it and was backed in his suit by the Individual Rights Fund.

[RogueExec]

Originally posted by Michael Robertson Moore:

"Laddy, without war we'd all be
swinging in the fucking trees.
It's God's own university and
anyone who says different is a
self-deluding fairy."

<<writing that one down>>

[mdb23]

DAREDEVIL

Having grown up in and around universities, I am able to state that there are MANY universities/colleges which do not meet your profile.

Simply put, it is a shame that you are basing your beliefs about people/organizations that you have never met upon the writings/rantings of people who make a living selling an agenda.

BTW, there is a different standard of proof for the the statements that E19, OldSFr, and I are making. We are free to cite specific instances due to the fact that we are not making all encompassing statements regarding an entire profession. Don't forget, it was you who stated (paraphrased), "I defy anyone to name one conservative liberal arts professor at any state university." Well, we named a few.

mdb23

[Daredevil]

Aren't you getting a little ahead of yourself? You haven't named a single person or university yet.

I'd like to see this list.

I would also like to see how these schools are rated in comparison to other schools with decidedly ultra-liberal faculty. And by rated I mean in terms of quality of education from a credible source. I'm not trying to be snippy with you. I am legitimately interested.

If you want to keep on believing that modern acadamia isn't the last refuge of pro-marxist holdouts go ahead, but you're deluding yourself. The AHA back in the early 70's is just one example of where societies of academics decided on choosing backing a definite political agenda.

[This message has been edited by Daredevil (edited 01-15-2001).]

[grrlcop74]

Originally posted by AG Turd:
Kristen,
I wonder if it is not the same one i ran into the other day?

A SFC Johnson?? Brought home an STD to his wife after a TDY in Korea a few years back, thus leading to his further insecurities with chicks?? That's him mwahahahahaha!!!

Kristen

[RogueExec]

Originally posted by grrlcop74:
SFC Johnson --- Brought home an STD to his wife after a TDY in Korea a few years back---further insecurities with chicks??

Kristen



It can NOT be a coincidence that this guy's name is Johnson.



------------------
Never under any circumstances take a sleeping pill and
a laxative on the same night.

[Michael Robertson Moore]

Damn, I'd forgotten all about that ancient post. Though since then I've gotten a better idea of what Doc Macleod meant. My girlfriend's father went straight from med school into the Navy during WWII. Instead of a normal surgical residency he participated in seven Pacific invasions, hitting the beach instead of waiting on the hospital ship. He might have seen more combat that any other surgeon in WWII, and much of the surgery he learned he made up on the spot. Then he went on to design EMT/Paramedic training in the US. God's own university indeed.

[pn]

I went to Berkeley and I was libertarian/conservative. As long as professors and students maintained respect and openmindedness, there were never any problems. I dated women whom Daredevil would likely denounce as commie pinkos without once looking them in the eye and saying how do you do. (That was weird when I was asked about my views on late-term abortion on the second date..."uh, that's an interesting question. Want some more tea?").

The integrity of academic life was interrupted (and the quality of education lessened) when knuckleheads with chips on their shoulders started shooting their mouths off, much like has happened here. The idiots with the big mouths would sit there yelling at each other while the rest of us would shake our heads and hope for the best. There's the whole two ears and one mouth thing again...

Anyone who has been in the military knows that book knowledge doesn't mean a thing unless you've been there. Daredevil, our own little SOCNET poll of college BTDTs says that you're wrong, wrong, wrong. If you think that some psycho academic's article is going to hold more sway over the forum's readers than their own experiences, then you need to rethink! What was it that AncientSFer said? "You need to grab your STABO rig and extract NOW; this isn't a fight--you're getting your ass kicked!"

r/pn
BS Physics & Chemistry, UCB '00

Anyone gonna be in Savannah for St. Paddy's day?

[Daredevil]

I never called anyone a "commie pinko".

And how political is a physics and chemistry curriculum going to get?

[OldSFer]

.

[This message has been edited by OldSFer (edited 01-17-2001).]

[NMBR5ML]

That's not what I was suggesting...

Academic freedom is more than important, it is a MUST. However, a faculty member needs to teach FACTS and keep their opinions out of their lectures. Why? The vast majority of courses are instructed by a single professor; from beginning to end. This individual gives the grades. They must appear completely unbiased. In my limited experience, professors can be quite infantile when you don't punctiliously follow all their little rules, or GOD FORBID, you disagree with them. Would someone receiving a scholarship (or other funding which is dependent upon their grades) hesitate to voice their disagreement with a professor's politics? Probably. I would. Is that an example of academic freedom? In my opinion; No. Discussion among STUDENTS, experiencing different ideas and opinions IS the most beneficial facet of higher education. This should be encouraged, with faculty members acting in an unbiased, facilitator role.

2nd, as I stated before, universities receive public funding. I know that money spent by the athletic programs is generated, in large part, by the athletic programs. I say put some of it back into education. Give out more scholarships. There's no reason a college football coach needs to get paid 5 times what the Governor gets; and education is too expensive. That is an understatement.

[Mike]

Daredevil is right in a way. Most colleges/universities in the South are conservative, as well as the military academies and VMI and Citadel. The Young Americans Foundation at http://www.yaf.org/ listed the 10 PC classes every year. I would guess most departments in the social science and humanistic fields are left-wing than the science discipline. So if you are taking a class in government/political science, god bless you.

[Jims]

While he may have overstated his case a bit, I agree with what Daredevil was saying.

In my experience with two very good universities the faculties were OVERWHELMINGLY VERY liberal.

I have a degree in International Relations and of the 18 classes I took for that major, 3 were taught by professors who understood that the US military was not pure evil.

I'll throw out one name for you: Derber. He teaches a class called Peace or War. You look him up and tell me if you see anything in his bio that would qualify him to teach this class.

It SEEMS to be a TREND on campuses in the US to allow professors such as Derber to teach classes that they have no qualifications to teach. Fantastic! You have a BA and MA from Harvard and a PhD from Hopkins and you are a fellow at Carnegie. Where in there are the qualifications to teach a course on International Security?

[E19]

Originally posted by Jims:

.

I'll throw out one name for you: Derber. He teaches a class called Peace or War. You look him up and tell me if you see anything in his bio that would qualify him to teach this class.



The course is an undergraduate sociology class...Prof. Derber has a BA in Political Science as well as a MA & Ph.D. in Socicology. He holds the position of full professor in the Sociology Dept. So why do you say he is not qualified to teach the course?


Peace or War
Soc 092
This course seeks to give students a new persepective on American society, as well as on an international system unable to maintain itself without collapse into violence. Many of the great social and political theorists have been concerned with the causes of war and violence as part of a more general approach to understanding society. Sociological theory has been concerned with the state as the institution officially endowed with the monopoly of violence in society, as well as with the critical issues in the organization of civil society that are connected with the theme of war and violence: inequality and stratification, power and authority, ideology and community. We shall also be centrally concerned with the organization of the international social structure and economy, and the ways in which relations between advanced and developing countries can become locked into an institutionalized system of violence.

[Jims]

Because the ACTUAL subject matter taught is only VAGUELY related to what you have quoted there.

The first book we read for the course was Noam Chomsky’s ‘What Uncle Sam Really Wants’ The description from Amazon follows:
---------------------------------------------
Book Description
…
Noam Chomsky is one of America's most popular speakers, electrifying standing-room only audiences all over the country as he dissects U.S. foreign policy with insights like these:
Contrary to what virtually everyone--left or right--says, the United States achieved its major objectives in Indochina. Vietnam was demolished. There's no danger that successful development there will provide a model for other nations in the region.
At exactly the moment it invaded Panama... the Bush administration announced new high-technology sales to China [and] plans... to lift a ban on loans to Iraq... Compared to Bush's buddies in Baghdad and Beijing, Noriega looked like Mother Theresa.
Prospects are pretty dim for Eastern Europe. The West has a plan for it--they want to turn large parts of it into a new, easily exploitable part of the Third World.
Synopsis
The co-author of Manufacturing Consent analyzes the real motivation behind U.S. foreign policy, drawing his commentary from his celebrated speeches. Original.
About the Author
Noam Chomsky is Institute Professor of Linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and is the author of many books on U.S. foreign policy.
---------------------------------------------

Prof. Derber would often try to speak about the value of military operations as if he had some kind of training that would make him an authority. The man has no experience out side of academia. I’m not saying I have any military experience and in that class I never portended as if I did, but I often would call him on opinions that he would teach as fact.

A student actually raised their hand in class one time and gushed about how the class had opened her eyes to the evil of the U.S.

My point is this. This one class is like thousands of others across the country in which professors who have moved up the ranks in academia are taking tangentially associated degrees and trying to get into the now flourishing discipline of International Relations. Its alright for a professor to have an opinion, but only if the present it as such. That does not always happen.

Sociology professors who freely admit to being draft dodgers should not be opining on the on-the-ground impact of carpet-bombing.

[Jims]

Oh yeah...

The BA, MA Harvard PhD Hopkins and Carnegie stuff was referring to another professor entirely, sorry if you thought that was about Derber.


[This message has been edited by Jims (edited 01-17-2001).]

[E19]

Quote from JIMS

"My point is this. This one class is like thousands of others across the country in which professors who have moved up the ranks in academia are taking tangentially associated degrees and trying to get into the now flourishing discipline of International Relations. Its alright for a professor to have an opinion, but only if the present it as such. That does not always happen."

Reply:

I fail to see your point. The class you refered to is Sociology 092, Dr Derber is a professor of sociology, so how is he out of his discipline? The course is not being taught as military science.


Quote:
"Sociology professors who freely admit to being draft dodgers should not be opining on the on-the-ground impact of carpet-bombing."

Reply:
One does not need to have been in the military to have an opinion on the effect of carpet bombing. The opinion of a sociologist
on the effect may differ with that of an Air Force general. The whole point of college is to expose the student to different points of view.

What department does the "International Relations " degree fall under.

[Mac]

"This course seeks to give students a 'new persepective' on American society, as well
as on an international system unable to maintain itself without collapse into
violence."

Well, from your opinions I would have to say that this course gave you a different perspective.
US policy and actions hasn't always been what people consider "moral" and "right."
The idea behind an education and learning is to learn. If some professor says what you already believe, your not learning much. If however it causes you to think, or support you views with facts and logic, then I guess you are learning something. Don't consider other people closed minded and not look give different opinions a chance.

Just my 2cents.

[Daredevil]

You're missing the point. Differing ideas are fine. It's just that when it seems like the faculty all have the same idea, and when the few faculty members who have differing ideas begin to feel isolated or singled out, a faculty can hardly keep calling their department diverse. And as Jims said, they start to influence younger minds to their way of thinking. They do this by presenting one idea (theirs) and not giving examples of other viewpoints. Even if they do give the differing idea it's done derisively. There are political science classes where it's not even a question of "Is America bad?" but "Why is America bad?"

I had teachers who made it clear, albeit in a subtle manner, that unless you agreed with their line of thinking on your essay question you weren't going to get the A.

Even is a simple public speaking class they presented Malcolm X and other revolutionary types as examples of effective speakers and Dan Quayle as an example of a poor speaker.

Sharing ideas is fine, as long as you get both sides out equally. I don't think this happens as often as it should.

[mdb23]

Having been on "both sides of the podium" at different points during my college career, I can say from experience that many of the professors that I have worked for have argued (strongly) from viewpoints that I knew they did not hold to be true. Why? They were simply playing devil's advocate in an attempt to get individuals in their classes to think critically and logically.
They wanted their students to be able to articulate why they believed the things they did, rather than simply present their beliefs as some sort of "a priori truths."

Also, having been a grad assistant, I know from personal experience that, far too often, poor performance on the part of the student is blamed upon the bias of a professor. Every professor that I have worked for, studied under, or worked beside, has merely demanded that one be able to articulate and justify one's beliefs, regardless of what they may be.

However, I can't tell you the number of times that I have heard students (who had just turned in some of the worst works in the history of academia) state, "he just gave me a D because he is an athiest (or liberal or conservative) ", when, in fact, a D was given due to numerous grammatical errors, poor articulation, and circular reasoning.

In short:

1) You only THINK you know the opinions of your professors. It is a fairly common tactic to argue from an unpopular position in an attempt to spark debate.

2) The excuse that "my professor is failing me just cause he doesn't believe in xxxxxxx" is commonly used in an attempt to avoid responsibility for turning in poor work.

Finally, I would like to state that Dan Quayle (sp) is, in my opinion, an exceptionally poor public speaker. The fact that you agree with the message that he delivers in no way means that it is delivered well. Similarly, the fact that you disagree with the position of Malcolm X has no bearing on whether or not he was able to articulate it effectively. If you are unable to make a determination as simple as this, then I believe there may be underlying reasons for your contempt toward the academic profession.


mdb23

[Jims]

E19,
Quote by E19:I fail to see your point. The class you referred to is Sociology 092, Dr Derber is a professor of sociology, so how is he out of his discipline? The course is not being taught as military science.

The class is not being LISTED as military science, but TAUGHT as if it could be one. For many kids who have no prior exposure to US foreign or military policy the subject matter of the course and the words of the professor are all they know. Should they go out and do independent research? Sure, but until you add an hour or two to the day I doubt that will happen.


Quote by E19: One does not need to have been in the military to have an opinion on the effect of carpet bombing.

No. One need not have been in the military to have an opinion on Operation Rolling Thunder. But to SPECULATE on the ON-THE-GROUND IMPACT (ie. how it made Vietnamese FEEL) is reckless and unprofessional. Dr. Derber does have some experience doing research on violence, so perhaps that is where he is extrapolating his data from, but I believe US inner-city violence is a far cry from carpet-bombing.

Quote by E19: What department does the "International Relations " degree fall under
I read your point. It is an interdisciplinary major. I took one other sociology class with a professor who was of the same political orientation as Derber, but had the intellectual honesty to include opposing viewpoints. All my other courses were history, political science and economics.

Mac,
I have no problem whatsoever with differing viewpoints. I look forward to open, honest and frank discussions of all kinds. I worked in college radio for pete’s sake, you can’t find a more open minded group on campus. Find a statement of mine that is legitimately close-minded and I’ll debate it with you

I have some beefs with U.S. foreign policy. I am, have been and will be willing to discuss them.

Chomsky’s book was hardly original thought. Many of his premises were presented in William Appleman Williams’ ‘Tragedy of American Diplomacy.’

[Jims]

mdb,

I see your point and agree with you wholel heartedly. I enjoy it when a professor is willing to play devil's advocate. I find I learn the most when they so engage the class.

But I KNOW Derber's opinions. I'm a greedy fucker of a student. I'm the guy that goes to office hours just to learn more. Derber used his class to further his political views. When a campus group organized a trip down to protest the School of the Americas, he not only made an announcement in class (which I have no problem with), but then stopped class while the sign up sheet was passed around. I had other 'left-leaning' professors at the time who I know supported the protest, but did not feel it appropriate to bing it up in their 'official' capacity as professors. They preferred to leave it up to the students to pursue their extra-cirricular activities.

my $.02

[Daredevil]

mdb -

You presume too much.

I recieved A's from some teachers I consider to be as far left as is possible to get. Even if there were an instance where I thought my grade might have suffered due to a difference in political opinion it was usually the difference between an A and a B+. Some of the lower grades I recieved came from more definite technically oriented classes with little room for interpretation. I readily acknowledge it was my own fault and not some bias from the teacher. I always considered students that blamed teachers in those situations weak. To be honest, I went ahead and figured out all the phrases that I knew the teachers wanted to hear and put them in. Much to their joy. The only class I refused to that for was my Vietnam war class and I got the B+.

I am talking about faculty members with definite politcal opinions that come through in their teaching. I had one history teacher that I could honestly say took a coldly objective approach to teaching his class with no personal opinion thrown in. He was it.

Grades aren't even the point. It's influence. Despite the fact that my grades were good in many of these classes it still irritated me to see some young impressionable student become convinced that America is indeed under the control of some fascist industrial-military complex structured completely on European whiteness and the oppression of poor workers in third world countries.

Speakers like Rigoberta Menchu, whose autobiography (even though it was disproven) is a virtual homage to Third World Marxist movements, are invited by the faculty to speak at a campus wheras someone like Judge Bork would have to be invited by a student organization, and even then would have to count on some faculty being in the audience ready to blast them with questions and call them all things evil to the progressive movement.

I concede that Malcolm X was a good speaker and that Quayle was a poor one. I also feel that there are some conservatives who were excellent speakers who were conveniently ignored in classes so they could focus on the speeches made by the more radical speakers. Hell, I'd have been happy for even an old school democrat like FDR.

[This message has been edited by Daredevil (edited 01-18-2001).]

[mdb23]

DAREDEVIL,

Perhaps I do presume too much. Then again, I may just be arguing for the sake of argument. http://www.stopstart.redhotant.com/smilie/smokin.gif Look, I agree that professors should not let their individual feelings influence the manner in which they evaluate materials. The only problem that I have with what you have said is that you are implying that paractices such as this are institutionalized across America, and that college campuses are merely Fascist strongholds filled with Neo Marxist professors itching at the opportunity to convert the youth of America.

I cannot say that all professors are professional, ethical, individuals. I haven't met them all, so anything I did say would merely be a wild guess. The same logic applies to you. You can't possibly substantiate a claim pertaining to all of the individuals in the profession without resorting to the most basic stereotype.


Anyway, I am done with this debate. I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

"Hell is......other people"
Jean Paul Sartre

mdb23

[DIRSUP KORLING]

Originally posted by RogueExec:
It can NOT be a coincidence that this guy's name is Johnson.



Is this SFC Johnson a Korean linguist by any chance? I might know him. Divorced a couple of years back and is now in Korea again. Ran into him in a bar in Itaewon last year. Had a cute little 20 year old girlfriend.

mario