Question on SF Organization

[E19]

When were SFG's first organized into battalions? Thanks.

[TWKINC]

E19 great question.

I know you have looked around on line for the answer, as did I. After 20 + sites and no luck I started making phone calls. According to the JFK museum, SFG’s have always been organized into battalions. At least since 1952 with 10th Group.

I still have both the USASOC Librarian and the USASOC Historian working on this issue. I’ll give em a call in the morning.

TRENT

[TWKINC]

Just got off the phone with the Head Historian of the Airborne and Special Operation Museum. He too believes that back in June of 52, when 10th Group was started it was already organized (or at least it was laid out to be organized) into battalions.

Hope this helps.

TRENT

[E19]

Unless it was only on paper (which I doubt), I cannot agree with their answer. I believe it was in 1971/1972 but have not come across anything to confirm it.

I can tell you from personal experience the Bn's did not exsist in the 60's in SF.

The TO&E of the SF Group in the 60's consisted of HQ & HQ Co, 4-6 SF Co's, Sig Co, and Avn Co. Most groups did not have an Avn Co.

I just checked Col Bank's book and he does not mention Bn's in his original TO&E for 10th Grp.

I would like to know where the historians got their info from.

Thanks.





[This message has been edited by E19 (edited 03-07-2001).]

[Tracy]

Originally posted by E19:
Unless it was only on paper (which I doubt), I cannot agree with their answer. I believe it was in 1971/1972 but have not come across anything to confirm it.

I can tell you from personal experience the Bn's did not exsist in the 60's in SF.

The TO&E of the SF Group in the 60's consisted of HQ & HQ Co, 4-6 SF Co's, Sig Co, and Avn Co. Most groups did not have an Avn Co.

I just checked Col Bank's book and he does not mention Bn's in his original TO&E for 10th Grp.

I would like to know where the historians got their info from.

Thanks.


I was assigned to 7th SFG in 1977 and some of the oldtimers (MSG Charlie Gray - A752) told me the SF Batallion came into being AFTER 5th SFG redeployed to Ft. Bragg from RVN in 1972-73.

Before that, there were 3 line companies, HHC, Support Company, and an Aviation Company/Detachment. Line company COs were O-5s.

With augmentation, each line company became a C-Team during deployment.

I believe the SF Batallions became official in 1973.

[E19]

Tracy,

The earliest reference I have seen to a battalion was the 3/7th replacing the 8th SFG in Panama on June 30th 1972 when it was inactivated. I am not certain of it being correct.

I was assigned to the 7th in 66/67 and at that time Group consisted of HHC, A-E Co's, and Sig Co.


[This message has been edited by E19 (edited 03-07-2001).]

[RifleMaster]

E19,

I've looked through LTC Sutherland's book "Special Forces of the United States Army, and only found a Group Org. chart in mid-1960s (Appendix 2a). This Org. chart has the Group over a Headquarters Company, Letter Companies, and a Signal Company. However, there is a single line from the stack of Letter Companies to a C Detachment. I think this indicates that the Letter Companies and the C Detachments were one and the same.

This supports Tracy's belief that the Companies became C Detachments during deployment.

I hope this helps!

Carl

[E19]

Carl,

Thanks. What I am looking for is the date when SFGs were reorganized into battalions.

The TOE 6/65 of an SF Company consisted of an Admin Det, an ODC, ODB's(3) , and ODA's (12). When all OD's were deployed the Admin Det reverted to group control. The ODC was augmented by personnel & equipment from HHC & Sig Co according to need to establish a subordinate control or operational base.

At the time Group TOE called for 4 SF Co's (with adjustment for AO needs.)

Tracy,

While the SF Company CO was an O-5 slot, when
I was in the 7th five of the six Co's were commanded by O-4's. Group was commanded first by a Col & then a LTC. O's (especially Cpt's)were in short supply due to Vietnam and the lack of an SF branch). Sgt Majors on the other hand were plentiful, with 4 or 5 in each SF Co.

[Tracy]

Have you tried the Center for Military History? They may be able to shed some light on the subject.

[MadMatt]

Don't know if this site will answer your ? E19 but a friend from 1st Group pointed me to it. This site has lots o SF History on it.
Check it out if you haven't already.
Mad Matt
http://users.aol.com/armysof1/early_years.html

[TWKINC]

Ok here is what I found out today.

I went over to the SOAF (Special Operations Academic Facility) and talked to the JFK Historian. When I walked into their office this morning they were still working on finding the correct answer. One was on the phone, another was on the net and a third was looking through old books.

DR. Finlayson told me that when 10th SFG was started its companies were what we would call battalions. As Tracy posted, each company commander was an O5 slot. But as you said on 30 June 1972, 3/7 SFG replaced 8th SFG in Panama. They had this one piece of paper that had all of the activation dates for many of the battalions, but not all of them. And 30 June 1972 is the first one it lists.

I also went to the main post library and talked to the reference department head honcho and he tells me that he was in USASOC in the 1980’s. He told me that the battalions were still being created all the way up till 1985 timeframe.

I still have one more person to meet with later this afternoon. He works over at the Airborne and Special Operations museum. I went there this morning but he had stepped out for a meeting. I was told if anyone would know the real answer, it would have to be him.

As for Center for Military History, Tracy I went to their site yesterday and found nothing on SF history that would help.

Till next time,

TRENT

[E19]

I just found a TOE chart (pg.699 of Sutherlands book)for the 77th Group (created Sep 1953) and it indicates 3 "FC" Battalions, so the historians were correct that it was 1952 (10th Grp) that battalions were first used.

Now that leaves me with questions.

1. When did SF do away with Bn's?

2. When did they start to use them again?

I found a reference to 1/10th remaining in Bad Tolz, when the 10th was relocated to Ft Devens in 1968. G. Barkers "A Consise History of USA SOF".

Could that be the first battalionn after the change of the TOE in the 60"s?

Does anyone have a copy of FM 31-21 (Sep 1961)? It may hold the answer to question number 1.




[This message has been edited by E19 (edited 03-08-2001).]

[TWKINC]

And the 3rd question is?

What is the meaning of life?

TRENT