BUGS and shit

[Disturbance]

I was wondering how much time say during a Jungle warfare course is spent on teaching how to protect yourself from bugs and spiders and deadly insects and all that bad stuff thatt can get you killed if not careful deep in the middle of nowhere. I read in some SAS books about how they build their bunks up off the ground and stuff but that was bout all they said.

-Disturbance

[Ranger002]

Well It must have been enough cause I am still here. LOL and never mind me Talk to one of the Viet Vets like Old SFer...
William

[RifleMaster]

Disturbance,

Much of what I learned about the SEA jungle was from experienced Teammates and the Vietnamese. I did not go to the Jungle Expert training.

It helped if you were a country boy that knew how to slip and slide through the bush and learned quickly to read the jungle sounds.

I can tell you that my VN jungle hammock (shown in my Webshots albums) with my poncho strung above was the best way to stay out of the mud, crap, leeches, bugs, ants, centipedes, snakes, etc. However, most of the time we could not risk using our hammocks. You haven't lived until you have laid awake all night in a NDP shivering in the mud while the enemy moved around you! Builds character!

The short answer is; there are special training courses for mountain, jungle, etc.

Carl



[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 02-07-2001).]

[realpolypro]

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In Panama, a can of "Unscented Deep Woods Off" worked fine.
No bug problems there.

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Poly

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[rgr-jc]

Disturbance,
I went through the Jungle Warfare Course (96-3)at Fort Sherman. The cadre gave us a briefing complete with slides of the native plant and animal life you are likely to encounter. They also gave us a tour of their "zoo". Pretty impressive zoo. They had almost every snake found in Panama to include the bushmaster and aniconda. They also had some of the shit slinging monkeys. A good rule of thumb when in the jungle: if it has thorns or pretty colors, don't fuck with it.

-jc

[Sharky]

Don't forget about those magic trees in Panama. At night, when you are struggling to climb up the side of one of those muddy ass mountains, I PROMISE you that if you grab a tree to help pull yourself up it will instantly change from whatever tree it was into a black palm and will ruin your whole week. Laying in a cutter ant trail while in an ambush position didn't look like much fun either. They draw blood. Then there was prickly heat from the pits of hell. The list goes on and on and on.........

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[Tracy]

For-what-it's-worth:

One of the best training facilities the Army ever came up with was the JOTC at Ft. Sherman, Panama. The doctors, zoologists, etc. declared that the Panamanian jungles were probably one of the worst environments to conduct military operations in the world.

The 156th Infantry, NM National Guard, deployed to Panama for security duty in WW2. They started one of the original JOTC courses. They got their nickname "The Bushmasters" from all the jungle training they did; plus all the snake bites.

They redeployed to the Pacific Theater of Operations and thought they got a vacation out of it. Now it was ONLY the Japanese trying to kill them instead of Mother Nature.

It was the Bushmasters that discovered most jungle diseases centered around HUMAN habitats; so they had a policy of staying away from villages, camps, etc. when fighting in the jungles. Mosquitoes that carried Yellow Fever and Malaria typically swarmed near human areas; whereas the field-variety mosquitoes had no such disease vector. All the lessons they learned in Panama they tried to pass onto other Army and Marine Units; which was mostly ignored.

The Bushmasters had one of the lowest casualty rates for non-combat injuries; and some of the best tactics for jungle fighting of any conventional unit. And were freaking NGs!

Talk about a "Diamond in the Rough"...

[Disturbance]

wow

keep it coming guys!
thanks

-Disturbance

[Jon Rosa]

Originally posted by Disturbance:
wow

keep it coming guys!
thanks

-Disturbance

The JOTC was good shit. I liked crossing the Chagres at night! Does anyone know of any US military Jungle Courses/Schools still in existence? Fort Sherman closed recently, and I've got a few troops in need of that training.

TSgt Jon Rosa
123 STS
DSN 989-4489

[RogueExec]

Originally posted by rgr-jc:
if it has thorns or pretty colors, don't fuck with it.

-jc

LOL......no doubt.

[Sharky]

Jon, talk to some of the jarheads. I understand that they have a great course in Okinawa. Gunny Hicks or Gary should be able to hook you up with a POC in Oki. Later.

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[rgr-jc]

Didn't some guys from 2nd Batt. die from some trees falling on them? I think they had some hammocks strung up and the trees came up-rooted due to the moist ground. Correct me if I'm wrong.

-jc

[Sharky]

Unless 2nd batt had a similar incident, they were from 3rd batt. Either B or C Co., I cant remember which anymore. It happened in 88 or 89 while they were in an "iron triangle" perimeter during a night patrol base. The tree fell straight down one leg of the triangle and landed on most of a squad. If memory serves, there were 3 dead and 4 injured. It's been many years since but I beleive this is correct. We had a memorial service at Ft. Sherman. Poly, you remember this?

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[JY]

Hmmmmmmmm....Iron Triangle...think Carl and I had the same problem of tree fallage about 20 years earlier, must be the name http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/rolleyes.gif

[rgr-jc]

Sharky,
That's probably it. The 88-89 time frame sounds right. Man, that sucks. I guess if it was a safe and easy job, everyone would be doing it.

-jc

[MadMatt]

That was Spc David Hughes who died that night. C Co 3/75 2nd Plt I think. September 1988. 2 or 3 other guys were hurt real bad and airlifted.

[Cole]

Has anyone attended or know of the material in the French Foreign Legion course in Guyiana. Apparently (this is from the writing of a Legionnarie mind you...) it was the best in the world. Also, the Legion posted a unit to Guyiana that was supposed to be pretty sharp in the jungle, as they all went through this course. Any comments?

[realpolypro]

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Roger Matt's answer, C Co. Panama 88'. Let's just keep
moving and/or setting up PB's at night boys, SOOOOOO many
advantages in doing so. (<---Said with so much sarcasim
dripping from my tongue like a rabid dog). PLAN BETTER!

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PGP Encrypting Key ID: 0xA5A05442
Current Key Reads:
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[Spotlight_Ranger]

I had the good fortune to go to the Malaysian Tracker course, mainly because it was twice as long as the survival course. Oddly enough they didn't spend much time on the bug aspect since they are a daily fact of life in the bush. The best guys were Ibans from Borneo, or any other Dayaks from Sarawak. All indig troops had to spend one night sleeping on the ground, which they all seemed to share some trepidation. I think it was from the big eaties rather than the bugs. The issue of slinging my hammock on a tree that might fall was constantly reminded to me by the OIC Kapt. Johnson. At night you would hear those huge puppies just drop. You also had to check the angle of any nearby trees, therefore you usually made camp before last light. Interestingly enough I did find that millipedes and scorpions were good eating, fortunately too was the abundance of mouse deer and instructors with shotguns and they would get them in the vehicle headlights. Finally I thought this was an odd question since bugs never really bothered me, but I did have a medic that I never realized was terrified of spiders until we did a night movement/infil on Guam, and he immediately refused to run point. Guam has to have more spiders than any other terrain I've been on.

[RifleMaster]

A tree killed three soldiers..... that sucks!

Jim and I did some time in the RVN Iron Triangle, and I don't recall being overly concerned with the trees falling on me. I do remember being concerned that MedEvac Hueys didn't land or fall on me! A lot of thoughts go through your mind when you're standing in the open after a fire fight with a strobe flashing in a night MedEvac. I can assure you, being smart wasn't one of my thoughts! I usually wondered if the pilot was going to land on the strobe as I had requested, if an RPG was going bring it down on me, or if the pilot was going to take me out with the rotor. Trees really were not a concern!

Ants were always a big pain in the ass!! I seemed to have ants chewing on me all the time! They were everywhere! Damn ants were in the trees in large swarms, like bees!

I'm sure Jim remembers the ants!

A few years back, I remember seeing a TV special on the jungle training in Panama. It looked like it would have been a good course to take! Too bad it was closed.

Who knows about the jungle training available on Okinawa?

Cheers!

Carl

[Sharky]

Matt's got the right intel. It was one dead, several injured. Memory is fogging up.

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[Disturbance]

So it seems like the creepy crawlies are more of a nusence (spelling) than actual danger to your life (dont get me wrong I know there is lots of risk). It also seems like its more of "Just deal with it" attitude as opposed to specific training?

Tell me if this statement is more true than not also: Are spiders or whatever more scared of humans than we are of them? So if it say saw us coming it would rather scatter away than stand and fight. I have heard stories to of deep in the jungle you can stumble onto nests of spiders that are so packed with them they make the forest look like a shadow.

most animals I know of act aggressively when they are scared...I mean like as long as you dont pose a threat you generally get left alone?

-Disturbance

[MrPotatoHead]

The tree fell on one fighting position and killed David Hughes. One of the other guys that got messed up really bad was engaged to his sister Zoe. Messed up his family really bad.

[JY]

Hi Carl;

Still hate ants! They hung like grapes in the bush, burned like fire! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif Falling trees usually from danger close arc lights http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif

Disturbance, most all of the critters only cause discomfort with their bite/sting, there are some that will kill you very dead but they are reacting to being injured or cornered. Most will flee if they see or hear you approach...though some snakes http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif Don't worry about the critters, it's the two legged hairless apes that'll get you, no anti venom for them.The team medic will be carrying anti venom for the AO's critters so even a heavy snake strike can usually be non fatal...very sick wishing you was dead, but non fatal.

take care...Jim

[This message has been edited by JY (edited 02-09-2001).]

[Disturbance]

My only concern is being taught properly as to which ones are irritating and which are lethal. I wouldnt wanna die from a mistake or not enough intel.

I would also like to thank all you guys for your responses too. If ya got more than just keep typing.

-Disturbance

[Disturbance]

I forgot another question i had. What kind of kit are you allowed to have to protect you from the lil guys. Like repellants and netting or whatever??

-Disturbance

[Scotty]

Got this mostly off Discovery Channel, rather than first hand experience, but there are several species of arachnid and snake that are proactive attackers. A lot of adders (found in most tropical regions) will flat out attack anything that comes near it, regardless of size.

Don't remember the name, but there's a brown spider in Australia that's the size of a large hand and will chase down a human as well.

From some personal experience and the Crocadile Hunter, most snakes are "flight before fight". And there are few things more painful that multiple bites from red ants! I hate those things.

Scotty

------------------
Some people call them "terrorists", these boys have simply been misguided

[Conservative]

Originally posted by Scotty:

Don't remember the name, but there's a brown spider in Australia that's the size of a large hand and will chase down a human as well.




the Funnell Spider.



------------------
"Give me your blessing, and I'll give you the last beat of my heart."

[Disturbance]

Well pack my bags and book me on the next flight down there. Sounds like fun!

[Paintman]

Originally posted by Scotty:

Don't remember the name, but there's a brown spider in Australia that's the size of a large hand and will chase down a human as well.

[/B]



Saw a picture of a spider from South America that was (including legs outspread) had the circumfrence (Aggh bad spelling) of a large dinner plate. It ate BIRDS. That's freakin' big!

Chris

[Hotmike]

Things you definately wanna watch out for:

Black Widow - Famous Hourglass design on abdomen... Make you sick, hurts pretty bad, and in extreme cases people have gone into shock

Brown Recluse - Real nasty... Bite doesn't hurt, but one of the four components in the venom causes necrosis (thats dead meat around wound to the uninitiated), and has a hell of a time coagulating... Also, any other minor cuts you get later, become nasty puss infested major cuts... Bad Mamajama

Bullet Ant - Never seen one myself, but one of my pals in Hondo gave me a great brief on it... Hurts like it sounds... Multiple biter, and pretty aggressive...

Scorpions - many different varieties out there, most just a painful nuisance (sp), but they all hurt to some degree, and I've heard of "Shock Cases" actually vapor locking because of stings (I've been stung myself a few times, twice in the Mojave Desert by the big ones, and once in Florida by the small poisonous one), but neither time was "Unbearable"

Gotta go eat... the old lady is making Centipedes and Mocha slugs for dinner... all this talk is making me hungry..

Hotmike the "bug dude"

P.S. Are they still running that jungle school out in Crow Valley, in the P.I. Those little Negritto instructors were some crazy bad mo-fos...

[RifleMaster]

As the result of my close encounters of the worst kind with RVN jungle insects and critters, my advice is to leave them alone! Its their turf!

I remember coming within a few feet of a poisonous snake that was pointed-out by an ARVN soldier that was left to warn the passing troops (this was SOP for dangerous items like boobytraps, mines, etc). I don't know the type of snake, but that night the ARVN Dai-uy (Captain) thought it was a big deal and asked if we saw the deadly snake. He told us that that snake would have killed us almost instantly.

Also, remember seeing one BIG centipede! During a brief patrol break/stop, I was in the bush on my ass when I noticed this big centipede sunning himself on this elephant leaf by my head. This centipede was about as big as a foot long ruler.

I do remember how the Arclights (B52's) blew trees out from the bomb craters and against other trees. BDA's were not my favorite mission. The enemy knew someone was going to come and assess the bomb damage, and they were usually looking for us. I preferred the element of surprise.

Take care!

Carl

[Disturbance]

I have never been in a jungle environment b4 so I dunno what its actually like but from my lil knowledge of it I picture like its basically alive. Aside from being hella wet and humid in my head I just see it completely packed full of nasty lil critters that are just waiting for you to turn your head one way so it can go down your back or crawl on to your boot or into your mouth when you are sleeping....see what I am getting at. What about kit? Noone got to that one yet.

-Disturbance

[E19]

Lizzards scare the hell of of some guys.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/lizard1.gif

[Domer]

Hotmike,

You are right on about the brown recluse. They are common in the midwest. Like to hide in dark cool places like attics and basements. A friend of mine was bitten by one and was really f****d up for a while. Bit him right thru his jeans. Had to graft skin from his ass to the area on his thigh where he was bit. Had to have an IV shunt in his arm for a while to administer meds. Very nasty.

[MadMatt]

And you also have to remember...
Like the JOTC Cadre always said. "Don't F*** with the Sloth, he'll F*** you up."
Mad Matt

[1026]

Domer- Your friend must have had a reaction to the venom. I've been bitten by a "fiddleback" and, while the wound took about three months to heal, the necrosis was limited to the immediate area of the bite.

[Domer]

1026,

At the time I was suprised at what happened to him too. Spiders and snakes do not bother me. Although after watching what happened to him I made sure that I shook out my shoes that were in the basement for a while.

[FutureRanger2000]

Originally posted by E19:
Lizzards scare the hell of of some guys.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/lizard1.gif

LMAO!

[Big_King]

Two words: arctic warfare

[Drew]

Brown Recluse = Bad News

We had two guys get bit on our last field problem. MOUT city here is Recluse City. You think it's just an irritated bug bite until the skin around it starts rotting...

[Scout]

Brown Recluses and Black Widows ::shudder:: Got 'em bad here in Alabama; also little scorpoins. A friend in St Louis's young son was bitten by a recluse; the bite was taken care of pretty quickly but the resultant infaction (strep) nearly killed him and lingered on for days.

King cobras are one of those reptiles that will attack proactively. Not just that, they'll actually stalk you if you come too close to their nest. Smaller cobras rise up on the first 1/3 of their body to strike don't know if King Cobras do as well, but those babies get to 18 feet in length. not a comforting thought.

[Overland]

There's a pretty nasty reptile native to large urban areas all over the US. One bite and your pretty much screwed. Has anyone else heard of lawyers?

Overland

[FutureRanger2000]

Originally posted by Overland:
There's a pretty nasty reptile native to large urban areas all over the US. One bite and your pretty much screwed. Has anyone else heard of lawyers?

Overland

LMAO!

[FutureRanger2000]

Originally posted by Overland:
There's a pretty nasty reptile native to large urban areas all over the US. One bite and your pretty much screwed. Has anyone else heard of lawyers?

Overland
LMAO!

[E19]

Originally posted by Overland:
There's a pretty nasty reptile native to large urban areas all over the US. One bite and your pretty much screwed. Has anyone else heard of lawyers?

Overland

Obviously Biology is'nt your strong suit.
Lawyers are not reptiles. They are PARASITES!



[This message has been edited by E19 (edited 02-17-2001).]

[FLTCREW1]

Camel Spider....Now those suck!

------------------
NSDQ

[mcdude]

As a former JOTB instructor, I can tell you only what I last heard....

When I left, USARSO was given the mission of finding an alternative site for Jungle Warfare Course.

The pilot program was to conduct the JWC in Belize, on a TDY basis from Ft. Buchanan in Puerto Rico. The instuctors would be stationed there, and rotate with the unit to Belize, conduct the JWC, and then go back to P.R., with a small detachment remaining behind, on a rotating basis, to prep for the next class.

This was all being laid out in 97, whenever I left Fuerte Sherman. I am not in touch with very many folks from down there, alas.

One thing that we tried to impress upon the DA pogues who came to visit, is that the world's tropical forests/jungles cover some 22% of the world. What are the chances of having to conduct some kind of operations in that climate/environment? Pretty good, I would think....but then, I ain't a real smart man.

[wolf 129]

On Brown Recluse Spiders:

My step father was a pest control guy. He told me about a guy who crawled up under a house doing a termite inspection and brushed the back of his neck onto a nest of brown recluse spiders. He managed to crawl out before he collapsed into a coma. He damn near died.

On the Jungle:

As far as the most dangerous critter down there, my experience in CA/SA (Jungle Warfare, time in Columbia, travel to Venezuela, and more than a little time in the Yucatan), would be humans. Non-human, I would go with the fer-de-lance. That is one badass snake. Bullet ants hurt like hell.

If you want to know what it takes to live in a place like that, read "Jaguar" by Dr. Alan Rabinowitz. He lived in Belize for a while studying los tigres. He talks about getting a parasite and getting sick. He said he was in his house and he could not figure out what the awful rotting, shitty smell was. He searched his house and turned it upside down. Finally, he realized it was himself who was stinking so bad.

Jungle living is harsh. If you look at the people who live there for long periods of time, you will find they live short, harsh lives. I interviewed some Mayans near the ruins of Coba. I thought this one old woman was in her 70s. She was in her early 50s. Short, harsh lives.

-Wolf

------------------
"One of the inescapable encumbrances
of leading an interesting life is that
there have to be moments when you
almost lose it." -Jimmy Buffett

[Sharky]

Better them than me. "I'm suffering too. From a hangover." (Morgan Earp:Tombstone)

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[USMCSNIPERONE]

As far as I'm concerned there are only three
types of Bugs!
1.Bugs that bite!
2.Bugs that sting!
3.Bugs that bite and sting!
kill them all,let God sort them out!

Semper fi Sniperone

[Longhorn92]

I was bitten by one of those parasitic reptiles that Overland and E19 mentioned...the bite was so powerful that I became mentally incapacitated and ended up marrying her..but what the heck, we have a nice nest now and I have a new computer and other nice things thanks to her...come to think of it I may be the parasite..

[RogueExec]

Now THAT is phunny!!!!!!!

http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

[Overland]

*edited*

[This message has been edited by Overland (edited 04-09-2001).]

[talleyes]

some studies show that most bugs are attracted to caffiene and/or sugar so stay away from the coffee,tea and soft-drinks.Now I know that some of you are going to laugh at this just as I did when I was at Ft.stupid(Ft.Stewart)but here goes Avon Skin SoSoft. It repelled 90%of the Mosquitoes and all of the ticks.After about 10min. the scent of the product wears off but the effects don't.(unless of cours you're sweating like a NY whore in baptist church in lower Alabama)but most Importantly Keep Clean.

[Ranger002]

Bravo,

I have found out that by hanging out in certain parts of the country where skin so soft is prevelant (Like San Francisco and West Hollywood) that the native population of ticks and skeeters is minimal. It seems as though skin so soft makes the little critters attack each other
William NO I AM NOT! Hazen

[talleyes]

Ranger Hazen

LMAO!!! so hard the chair gave out and my keyboard locked up!

guy jones
amen brother my oldest child asked the same ? about 2months ago.(she is 9)

[RifleMaster]

Guy,

#4 was difficult in the "Nam". That damn C-rat paper was only big enough for cleaning under your fingernail!! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

Carl

[talleyes]

the mre variety is joke also!thats why when I was part of a MANPADS teameither myself or the gunner stored away a very crumpled half roll of Charmin.

[attila]

One of my drill instructors said never to throw rocks at the monkeys in panama.

[MadMatt]

If you throw rocks at the monkeys they break sticks off and throw them at you. Monkeys aren't a big worry, it's the Sloths. Don't f%*K with the Sloth, he'll kick your ass. hahahaha
Mad Matt

[Scotty]

Count yourself lucky if a stick is all that monkey throws at you! They like chucking feces too.

Scotty

------------------
Some people call them "terrorists", these boys have simply been misguided

[talleyes]

Preach it Scotty!!!
them Dung throwin monkeys aint no joke! they follow you for miles!Plus there easy to pissoff.

[MadMatt]

My first time at JOTC I was tasked to set up Comms on top of Pavon Hill. I was up there all alone and a frickin monkey was up above me in the trees. He was real pissed that I was there so he was breaking sticks and throwing them at me and screaming. He was getting closer and I was getting a little worried being a Panama newbie. Then things got even more strange when a Panamanian hillbillie walked out of the jungle with a rifle. He was laughing at me and asked if I wanted a mango. Shit, I was all alone and I got a monkey and a frickin Panamanian hillbillie with a rifle messin with me. ahahaah This is JOTC and I have no rounds to defend myself. The Panamainian picks up a rock and throws it at the monkey. The monkey falls down out of the tree and takes off. Didn't see the monkey after that. I was stuck up on the hill for awhile so the Panamanian brought me a bunch of mangos and turned out to be pretty cool, he later showed us how to hog tie a huge Iguana we caught.

Mad Matt

[Scotty]

LOL

Those mangos are hard as hell to cut right. Almost not worth the effort without a chainsaw.

Did you eat the iguana or train it? Did you have any trouble understanding "Southern Panamanian"? 'Que pasa, y'all?'

Scotty

------------------
Some people call them "terrorists", these boys have simply been misguided

[MadMatt]

Originally posted by Scotty:
'Que pasa, y'all?'



Actually we were trying to figure out what he was saying. Found out later he was saying "Y'all got a purty mouth"
hahahah
The iguana we were going to palletize it and bring it back. It was old and sick so we just let it go.

Mad Matt