Russian... [Archive] - SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network

FutureRanger2000

4 June 2001, 12:54

Just so all know, I've talked to a few different people including my family doctor, and a friend who is an amateur special effects man/fake snuff film producer regarding this video. All parties are convinced it is a fake, most likely created during the first Russia/Chechnya war circa 1991-1992 as a propaganda film. It was probably shown to Russian soldiers to rile them up to go kick some Chechen ass. I know it would work on me, if someone showed me a video of an American having his throat cut by an Iraqi/Colombian/<<insert unfriendly of the week here>> then I would most likely be pumped up to go kick their asses. I think it has to do something with dehumanizing the enemy, like calling them Krauts/Russkies/Dinks/Ragheads/Skinnies, or seeing them behaving like savages committing a horrible act on one of your fellow soldiers, those sort of things. I do have a list of inaccuracies for anyone who doubts me, ask and I will post them. However, as long as the teenager doesn't see this post, he will never know that it's fake. Unless of course he is a Future Ranger and has an inquisitive mind worthy of any great investigative journalist. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif The shock value of the film will do the trick. Seeing a gruesome act like that ought to "Put some calamine on his itch for war." I'll tell you what though, before the inquiring part of my brain took over, I was incredibly freaked out. There were marks on my neck because I had inadvertently been rubbing it and squeezing it, and I thought about it for almost 2 days straight. I completely and totally forgot about it from the day before Christmas Eve until 2 days after New Years Day, then I started asking questions. It was a great feeling when I found out it is a fake. But typical of my generation, the teen you are talking about may not be so willing to disprove it, and it may be just the thing he needs to slow his ass down and realize that war is not all the fun he thinks it will be. I'm 100% positive that the film is fake. Regardless of what I think, on the .0000000001% off chance that the film was real (which it isn't), the man in that film showed some remarkable courage. P.S. If you stay in contact with this kid, a few weeks or months after he settles himself down if he is still a little freaked out about it or worried about it, tell him that it's a fake. Then immediately launch into a lecture about how that kind of stuff actually does happen in war(and in peace for that matter), it's just not caught on tape for the U.N. to find and prosecute whomever is responsible for it. The shock effect will remain, and he will have thought about it for awhile and realized some things about life and war. The last thing we need is another lunatic in this world, losing his mind because he can't get the image of a man being murdered out of his head.

[This message has been edited by FutureRanger2000 (edited 06-04-2001).]

Bob1234

4 June 2001, 13:40

It looks pretty real eh?
I've never seen it.
Post the link.

Scotty

4 June 2001, 17:14

Looks and sounds real enough to serve my purposes. Anyone else?

Scotty

------------------
Some people call them "terrorists", these boys have simply been misguided

Doc

4 June 2001, 17:26

FutureRanger,

I was wondering where you were at when the Warren Commission was studying the Zapruder Film?

Only kidding bro

DOC
DOL

[This message has been edited by Doc42 (edited 06-04-2001).]

Jeff Rambo

4 June 2001, 18:44

The mpeg can be found on consumption junction.

Lima_Bravo

4 June 2001, 23:09

Ok, so it was fake? Good to know, I guess, it was really disturbing... FR2000, do you know how it was done? I'm not questioning, I was just wondering how you can trick the viewers in believing the guy was beheaded, cuz it looked so real.

Dark Helmet

4 June 2001, 23:25

Originally posted by FutureRanger2000:
.....I do have a list of inaccuracies for anyone who doubts me, ask and I will post them.....

I do not doubt you, but am very curious about the inaccuracies and would enjoy it if you shared them. Piques my interest - always like to learn.....

FutureRanger2000

5 June 2001, 03:09

Bob: It's horrible. VERY realistic.

Doc: I was camping out on the grassy knoll, waiting for the second shooter to return to the scene of the crime. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

Lima and Tack: Lets see if I can remember the whole thing. It opens on a man, approx. 20 years old, about 5'10", maybe 160 pounds laying on his right side with his right ear on the ground. There are 2 men, one taping the act, and one with his right foot on the victims head, holding him down. The victim doesn't appear to be struggling, or sweating. A serrated edged knife is placed on the left side of his neck, behind his esophagus. It is pushed in slightly, he lets out an "agh," then the knife is plunged in about 2-3". The man doing the cutting appears to saw through his esophagus, almost completely. Then the video cuts to a wide shot of the blood running out like a friggin river about 5-7 feet down an embankment. Now for the inaccuracies.

1. The man isn't sweating. He knows he is going to die, usually a person would be pretty damned nervous about that. He isn't struggling either, which is strange.

2. When the knife goes in, just enough blood comes out to mask the movement of the knife. The knife is probably stage prop retracting knife, when you push it against something the blade retracts into the handle. The producer makes a wise choice by using a selectively retracting blade. He slightly pushes it against the mans neck to show the audience that the knife is real. On the opposite side of the handle is a button which allows the blade to retract into the handle. When the button is held down and the blade is pushed against something, the blade retracts. In this case when the blade retracts, a small amount of blood comes out of the side, thus masking the fact that the blade is moving sideways towards the front of the neck, but it won't show the neck actually severed. Without computer animation or the use of a dummy, you cannot create that effect. Obviously a snuff film producer doesn't have those kind of resources. Even is he or she did, they wouldn't use them because it would make it look to fake.

3. The color of the blood that comes out of the mans neck is perfect. However, it isn't enough. For a wound like that, blood would likely be spouting out at a very large rate. Also, blood would definitely be coming out of the mans mouth, possibly his nose as well.

4. The man makes a subdued scream, which would be impossible after sustaining a wound like that. His vocal cords are gone, severed, useless. No noise like the noise he made could ever emit from his mouth after that.

5. Notice how the shot cuts to a wide shot. You never see the knife actually cut through the front of his neck. it goes from the knife being in his throat, to his head being almost severed. Also, the quality of the film decreases rapidly at that point. You can vaguely see the signs of a throat that was cut after that, but you cannot get a good view of it. More proof that the cut is a prop, using gelatin that can be bought at any Halloween store or movie prop store.

6. You see a very large trail of blood from the mans neck flowing down an embankment. The producer takes a bold leap here. He wants to show the audience that the man is still alive and suffering, when in actuality the man would have died seconds after a cut like that was made. He simulates the sound of heavy wheezing, which can be made by any human suffering from bronchitis or the flu. Also, he shows the man struggling to get up, and the man who did the cutting is still holding him down. Just by looking at the trail of blood you can see that the man has lost most of the blood in his body. It is physically impossible to move after losing that much blood. He would have went into shock and thus would have been all but paralyzed by time the blood trail reached 2 feet away from his neck. A few seconds before going into shock, he would have passed out from the loss of blood. At 3 feet, he would have been dead. The producer wanted to show that the man was suffering, but instead showed that the film was a fake. No person or animal could move after that much blood loss.

All in all, it was a horribly realistic production. As I said before, on the .000000000000000000000001% off chance that this happened (which it didn't), may God rest the soul of that incredibly brave man, may his family never find out how he died, and may God help the savage monsters who did that to him. But it didn't happen, so it doesn't matter. Scotty, let us know how the young "Rambo" (no offense Jeff) is feeling after seeing the video. See if you can catch up to him while he is running to register as a conscientious objector. By the way, I have nothing against conscientious objectors. At least not the Veteran hating Military hating Anti-American, Non-Patriotic lunatic conspiracy theory ones. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

Jeff Rambo

5 June 2001, 03:54

Very interesting arguments you've presented FR2000. Strong supporting fact behind each one as well. But I'd like to ask you a few questions: Did you actually show the video to these two, or did you just describe it?

Although I'm an audiophile for the most part, I deal with video editing & production on an almost daily basis, and on top of happening to have the luxury of Adobe Premier on both of my computers, I also live in Los Angeles ... one of the primary "Snuff Industries" along side New York and have had the pleasure (or displeasure) of seeing some original Alan Shakleton work, along with hearing archived Catharine McKinnon interviews. Lots of technique's discussed.

Anyhow, I cracked open Adobe Premier and decided to change the camera angle a bit and theres four flaws in the inaccuracies you've provided-

1. The knife entry was done at one angle while the blood flow began to occur almost instantly after a slight "jerk" in the knife angle which can be caught on the video. Having previously owned a prop knife, this would be somewhat difficult to portray on film as there would be know way for the "jerk" to be perceived as anything but real without letting the viewer see right off the bat that the knife has not actually penetrated.

2. As you stated, the blood does indeed flow from out of the handle at the press of a button. It can either come from one side, or both depending on the type of prop knife. However, if you look at the film very closely, you will notice that the knife has blood on both sides of the blade. The problem that this presents is the fact that the upper portion of the visble blade side does not have any blood on it, thus that would mean there had been no blood flow that came from the handle as you'd be able to see it. And it would be rather difficult for the blood to come from one side to another without a complete 360 "jerk."

3. While it can not be completely seen without paying close attention, towards the end you can see the the knife "slicing out" of his neck. This is reason enough to question those who call the video on it's authenticity.

4. It appears as if he is tied, somewhat similiar to a hog tie. The camera man is in the front of him to the left at a slight "tilt" angle to his head. At the end, there is a rather fast "twitch" of his right leg which leads me to believe there was a 3rd person, as oppossed to two as you state.

As far as the lack of a struggle, there are many arguments that can be made as to why he may not have been struggling.

I'm not saying the video is real, nor fake. But it is very possible (more than your stated .01%) that the video is indeed real once you take into account these few factors.
Click here for the video (http://www.consumptionjunction.com/crazycrap/view.asp?ID=3920)

[This message has been edited by Jeff Rambo (edited 06-05-2001).]

Nickfury

5 June 2001, 04:28

That was truely truely truely disturbing ....I actually think that was very real. It seems very much like what the Chechens would do. Many of the terrorist attacks and tortures I have heard of are meant to enrage or demoralize Russians.So many chechens have died, men, women, children, and so much of the country has been obliterated and bombed that perhaps it is easy for them to resort to that kind of treatment of men they see as their oppressors. Sadly that guy was probably a poor conscript who had no choice but to go, or thought he could serve honorably.

Considering the low pay and horrible conditions, I think many Russians would rather not go down there to Chechnya. IT is almost a death sentence. I hear many pay their way out of it or just avoid military service (no pay or low pay, bad food, bad equipment, brutal treatment from your NCO's and OFficers, and an enemy who will do this kind of shit...no thanks). That is why so many Russians are leaving and joining the French Foreign Legion, it may be brutal but it pays well and good food and no Chechens.

It looked to me like he didn't have much choice about resisting, but then what are you going to do. To me it looks like blood is coming out of his mouth during the cutting. Also the sounds he makes change to a muffled gurgle. If you have seen ritual slaughters of animals where they cut their necks this isn't so hard to see as real.

All I have to say it that is such a horrible way to die, at least it was fairly quick, thought painful. That war is fought at such a brutal level, one horrific act after another. Not that many long wars don't end up like that....but damn that was disturbing....no one should have to die like that. Certainly none of us who want to serve our country think of that as a possibility.
-If it was real, say a prayer for him and all the other poor sons of bitches over there, Russian and Chechan (the Chechens are the only one's commiting atrocities).
That image will sober anyone up with idealized images of war.
Nick

FutureRanger2000

5 June 2001, 07:03

Even more interesting arguments, Jeff. I guess the mystery will live on. There are in fact many different ways to simulate blood coming from a prop knife, other than coming from the handle (although that is the most common). As for the blade slicing through the neck, it could be an illusion to make it look like the knife did slice through, when in fact it never penetrated the skin. Magicians commonly use this trick. I would ask a magician, but you know how they are with their secrets. The leg twitch is still the give away for me though. After losing that much blood I don't think he would have been able to twitch his leg that fast. Unless someone else twitched his leg, it is all but impossible. I've lost relatively small amounts of blood in various accidents (once specifically out of my nose, about enough to fill one of those little milk cartons they give you at lunch in elementary school) and I have felt weak enough to not be able to raise my arm to wipe the blood off my face. Also, slitting a throat is a very fast death. I would venture to say A person would be dead 5-10 seconds after the penetration of the knife. He would have died long before the trail of blood got as long as it was at the point in which he twitched his leg. As far as I'm concerned, it's a fake. Sobering nonetheless, even if it is a fake we all know that this type of thing happens all the time in war and conflict. If it was real (which it isn't) my prayers are with that man and his family, and I take comfort in knowing that if it was real (which it isn't) the men committing that crime will get theirs in the end.

Ted

5 June 2001, 09:51

Bud, that is a real death. The Chechens are bad muthafuckers, they would do something like this. Give up the denial.

FutureRanger2000

5 June 2001, 11:14

With all due respect, why would I be in denial? I have no doubt at all that the Chechens are bad motherfuckers, and I stated several times that we all know that this type of stuff (and worse) happens all the time in war and conflict. I'm just saying that to me (keyword "me") it doesn't look real. It looks staged, and fake. It very well could be real, but I don't think it is. I hope for the family of the possible victims sake it isn't real. Whiskey8, I agree that it is a poor quality clip, and a conclusion couldn't likely be derived from it. It also makes sense that the Chechens would be gratifying their sense of retribution. Now I'm not expert on Psychological Warfare, but how is showing Russian soldiers how a fellow Russian soldier died an extremely brave and courageous death at the hands of 2 savage enemy soldiers going to demoralize them? If anything I would think that it would pump them up to go back out into the field to find some Chechens and kill them. My first reaction when I started to doubt it was completely different from your viewpoint. I figured the Russian higher-ups had the video created as a fake to show to their subordinates, to pump them up to go fight the Chechens. Also, I'm not siding with the Russians or the Chechens. If the video is real (which I don't think it is) the people who did the cutting are savages, no matter what government they belong to.

Razor

5 June 2001, 11:52

FR2000,

Just commenting on your blood loss theory--have you ever watched pigs get slaughtered? When I was a kid, our neighbor had a pig farm, and sometimes I'd help with the slaughter. They'd wrap a chain around the pigs hind legs, then suspend them upside down and cut their throat, catching the blood in a tub placed underneath the pig (which I'd help his kids stir to prevent coagulation so it could be used to make blood sausage). The pigs lost a huge amount of blood very quicly, but they continued to squirm and thrash for quite a while--longer than 5-10 seconds. Also, their screams sounded very similar to the sounds the Russian made in the film. Some of the guys here that did the SERE thing may remember the killing the goat class, and how that beast continued to fight well after its throat had been pierced and it had lost a great deal of blood. Tasted really good after not eating for several days, though. Any of you 18Ds out there want to comment on goats and blood loss?

Granted, humans aren't animals, but in situations as these, the comparisons may have validity.

XavieN

5 June 2001, 12:00

the Chechens are the only one's commiting atrocities
-Nickfury

Bullshit! How do you know?
Still I also think it's a fake video. But who knows, maybe he did make (if real) struggle but let's say there is a third man. Tie him up. They give him a hard hit in the belly which sucks the air out of him. The third one holding his legs. Foot on his head from the cutter-man hard on the temple, that gives hell of headache if pressed right (atleast if you do it with hands/arms) on, and the hard stamp when setting the foot down on the temple can lead to a few seconds of temporarily blindness (the sight goes totally white if I remember right). I don't think you are in the mood for strugling at that point. But yes, I think it's a fake, even though the movement of his legs afterwards might be from the third man who hold him still who then moved back and kicked the legs of his feet or something like that.

The reason to make it (if real) could be to fear the enemies ("If you come here we gonna fucking kill you painfully" -or something to that degree).

But I didn't see what you said about the knife seen through the throat.
But then, notice that the knife afterwards (it's in the middle of the screen at the end) is not that blood red even though the bloodrush that vomits out of his throat when coming through completely.

Just my 0.2 cents.

Scotty

5 June 2001, 12:07

FutureRanger,

What kind of doctor told you that a blood pool of three feet equals death? The average human body has about 5.3 quarts of blood, think of it this way, a half pint of milk spilled on the floor will go 3 feet in no time, and they take more than that when you give blood. That's only 236 mLs of blood, a fraction of what you have to live on!

First of all, I refer to Guy to support/refute that what I'm saying is true. He would know.

This is going to be a little sporadic as my thoughts come to me...

You can live on a little less than half of your blood for a limited amount of time, not counting the effects of the amount of adrenaline that's coursing through this guy when he realizes he's about to die. I've heard stories of "mostly dead" people still struggling due to adrenaline levels alone. You're body is so piped up, it hasn't realized it's out of the necessary functions to persist.

As for the amount of blood present and why it's not gushing, it's possible by the angle of the knife entry and the amount of cutting he does that he's going through the Mastoid muscles, the Corotid arteries, and the esophagus. With all of this tissue present, the flowing blood will take the path of least resistance (in this case, probably down the esophagus into the lungs and stomach).

It appears more to me like the knife is being thrust a lot deeper than one or two inches, which means the blade itself is plugging part of the wound and aiding in the direction of the bloodflow. Also, he's cutting the corotids from the back which would keep the majority of the spray internal.

Note: Hardly anybody dies within a second or two. The human body fights it like mad and a completely severed throat can take minutes for the person to bleed out enough to keep them from struggling in an attempt to flee the situation, then eventually begin to lose consciousness and die. Even in loss of conciousness, the brain can send signals to the muscles and have them resist the onslaught of dying.

As for the guy sweating, it looks like it's cold there and the camera angle is a little distant to tell. If it's cold enough, you wouldn't see that much sweat anyway.

As for the noises, the vocal chords are towards the front of the neck, the knife is going in to the center, which means he'd have use of them even through the cutting of the esophagus (though it would be gargled by the fluid, which it is in the video).

Of course, these are all opinions based on video and my personal experience. I don't know anything about camera angles or special effects, but this looks real to me. I certainly hope for this man that it is a fake and he's walking around today. If not, what a horrible way to die.

PS - I have a degree in Physical Anthropology with a concentration in Forensics. I started as a teaching assistant and took over the Forensics class for several semesters at ASU. I did my internship with the medical examiner's office and have seen quite a few murder scenes. I also know about anatomy (just so you know I'm at least slightly qual'd to talk about this).

------------------
Some people call them "terrorists", these boys have simply been misguided

FutureRanger2000

5 June 2001, 12:32

Whisky8, with all due respect to your Special Forcesness, I don't think the video I saw had any dialouge. It did have sound, but I don't think it had dialogue. We may have watched a different video, or I may have not been paying attention to that part. I also don't speak Chechen or Russian. Had I known that they said "This is what happens to Russian Soldiers when they come to our country" then I wouldn't have said that the soldiers would be pumped up. I retract my statement about the soldiers possibly being pumped up after seeing it.

Razor: I have grown up (and still am growing up) in a suburb of Philadelphia, in South Jersey. Therefore, I have never had the chance (or the will) to see anything get slaughtered. Say what you will about me, but I can't watch animals get hurt. I can't watch them die. And I can't hurt or kill them. I've watched human beings die fortunately all on tape. It doesn't phase me all that much, sometimes it has an effect on me, depending what the situation is (this one really got to me). I'm not a PETA nut, I'm by no means a vegetarian, and I know how the animals I eat for dinner die. I just never felt the need to watch it. I'm having a real problem lately concerning my career in light of developments about animals and training, that's a whole other thread. As for the other part of your post, I thought that was OPSEC? I could be wrong (I so often am lately). On to blood loss.

Speaking from personal experience, blood loss is a total pain in the ass, especially from the collarbone up. A few months ago I took a spill from about 10 feet off a ladder onto some metal trash cans. The trash cans escaped unscathed. I didn't. 2 cracked ribs, bruised diaphragm, bruised stomach (the organ) and a concussion, nothing very serious. Enough to lay me up for a good time though. My hand was right under my face when I landed, and I smacked my nose on it. Between the blood I was throwing up from the stomach injury and the blood coming out of my nose, I lost a measurable amount of blood within the first 5 minutes after the accident. I was so weak I literally couldn't raise my arm to wipe the blood off face before it got in my eyes. My head felt like I had been standing on it for an hour and then got up quickly for a fast jog. I know I couldn't kick my leg in that condition, and that was NOWHERE even close to the amount of blood lost by the man in the clip. Granted though, It could have been the head injury or the shock of the impact that impaired me.

FutureRanger2000

5 June 2001, 12:52

I never actually showed the film to any of the people I talked to, I wanted to spare them the horror of seeing that type of scene. It messed me up pretty badly. I described it to the doctor and friend, so they couldn't have really gotten an objective view of it. I may have exaggerated the amount of blood. The doctor was more than likely just trying to put my mind at ease by telling me that it was probably fake. I made the claim that it was fake, so I am bound to defend it. However, I will change my Point of View to: The quality of the video is to poor and to short to decide if it is real or fake. Some signs point to fake, some to real. More point to real. But remember, just because signs point to something being real or fake doesn't definitely make it either. Who knows, the point is it is one hell of a good tool for cooling off a war hungry kid, whether it is fake or real. Now let this thread die, if i keep typing this much my fingers are going to catch fire! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by FutureRanger2000 (edited 06-05-2001).]

Pawn

5 June 2001, 14:31

I once saw a chicken beheaded. This was done after its throat was cut and it had stopped bleeding. The headless chicken then flew out the window, and died a minute later on the roof.

I think it would be hard to predict what the body is capable of doing in moments of trauma.

FutureRanger2000

5 June 2001, 14:40

My Grandma once told me a story about a time when she was younger when she and her siblings and family went up to a farm that a family member owned. Someone cut the head of a chicken in front of them and the chicken ran around for a few seconds before it died. She said everybody's jaws dropped in amazement from seeing that! That's some strange stuff!

[This message has been edited by FutureRanger2000 (edited 06-05-2001).]

whisky8

5 June 2001, 16:54

FR2000,
There's more than one version of those videotapes that have been made from the Chechen conflict. I had seen several of them when I was working over there in the Balkans (one video showed a Russian Soldier getting his fingers shot off one at a time by the Chechens, absolutely 100% real).

You have to be naïve if you think that the Russians would forge these tapes as some part of a "Psyops" for their own troops. I have worked with the Russians in the Balkans, they can not even manage to pay their own troops let alone have the resources to forge a conspiracy showing soldiers being hacked apart in order to build morale.

Russia and Chechnya are essentially third world countries in a religious war with each other. Those idiots over there live for killing each other. Once, I was at a mass grave site in BiH. A US Soldiers made a remark about the smell left in the area from the dead bodies having been there. Our local interpreter who was from the opposite faction replied; "Yes, but they smelled even worse when they were alive…" That's just an example of how much people hate each overthere.

I've never been impressed by the realism of any movies coming out of Hollywood. If you want to see a movie that closely resembles the "attitudes" over there, I recommend seeing Dennis Quaid's movie "The Savior."

People in the US can not imagine how brutal people can treat each other over there. It's almost as if people are so horrified by seeing someone getting their throat slit that they have to deny it and say that it's a forgery…

W8

Jeff Rambo

5 June 2001, 17:46

On the knife issue- Yes, there are otherways to simulate the blood via the knife. One of the common variations is to have an "opening blade." The problem with this is the unrealistic look of the knife as these types are usually thick. That would be the only type of knife to be used to sim. the type of "blood smeare [sic]" on the knife. Unfortunately, when you look at the blade you will notice that it isn't thick enough. Therefore that furthers the conclusion of this video being real ...

You have to remember, the chech rebels are not governed by the same "rules" (to put it in regular terms) as we are. They're PYSOPS concepts are just what you see in that video. Ruthless, vivid, and to the point.

Lastly, I would say that it is a bit of denial that you're in. Reason being, you came to the conclusion that the film was fake, then you put out an outrageous percentage of it's authenticity and then you moved back to the conclusion of it being fake. There are many people who are in the film business (Jared for instance:) on this board, they know how the ways of the trade work first hand and most will tell you that it is very hard to simulate the "detail" of this particular "scene." The type of incident can indeed be sim'd, but the aspects and effects used for the way it was done completely outrule that.

Lastly- Read the book "On Killing."

Nickfury

5 June 2001, 18:03

Xavien,

Yeah that should have read, "Chechens are not the only one's committing atrocities".
It was a typo. But I know that many CHechens escape or pass easily through Russian lines by paying. The Russian soldiers have so little money and food that many are willing to ransome or bargain with Chechens for money and food. Not that they don't do their share of brutal killings of Chechens, but I think the killing done by Russians is more Special forces, common soldiers are just trying to avoid conflict and get home alive.

Nick

Razor

5 June 2001, 19:15

FR2000,

Talking about the survival part of SERE isn't OPSEC. You want me to tell you about ways to build a shelter, start a fire, find food, purify water, make signals, improvise tools, etc? Good stuff, but not OPSEC.

I don't like seeing animals suffer or die needlessly either, but the key word here is needlessly. I'd gladly kill a whole den of bunnies or coop of chickens if it meant me or my guys didn't starve and had the energy to get back home. I'll give up a whole goat farm if it means the team doc has real experience in keeping broken bodies alive and well. Its ok if its to assist in making life better for humans. Being at the top of the food chain has distinct advantages.

USMCSNIPERONE

5 June 2001, 21:57

I watched it several times and yes I would
say its real.
I grew up on a farm and have personally
Slit the throat on pigs on more then one
occasion,the gurgling sound was the same.
Sticking the knife in from the side is how
we did it also.
Nasty business anyway you look at it.

Jasper

5 June 2001, 23:35

Just my $ .02, I think that the video is real. Also, as to why the video is made; mercenaries in Chechnya use video to prove what they have accomplished.

W8, were you in one of the JCO houses?

------------------
Arch hard and take it like a man.

Dark Helmet

6 June 2001, 00:31

Thanks for the obervations, all. Good dialogue.

FutureRanger - 2 quick things:

1) You continue to impress me. For a high school kid, your arguments are well thought out and intelligently conveyed. I really don't care whether you are right or wrong....excellent shot group of observations, regardless.

2) The blood loss/dizziness thing you experienced in your fall was 100% psychological. 1/2 pint won't do it. Ask any physician.

FutureRanger2000

6 June 2001, 03:20

Razor: I apologize, I was under the impression that the goat thing was OPSEC. I thought that the Army higher-ups wanted to keep that sort of under wraps so that PETA doesn't show up at the gates of the SERE compound protesting.

W8: Cards on the table time. I honestly don't know if the film is real. I was so incredibly horrified by this video, that I had myself convinced that it was fake. Maybe I was wrong, maybe I wasn't. Either way, I made my statements in a way so that if someone else in my shoes saw it, and they saw my post about it being fake, then their minds would be put to rest knowing that they actually hadn't just witnessed a war crime. I didn't want anyone else to feel the way I felt after seeing it, before I convinced myself it was a fake. I still don't know if it is real, I certainly hope it's fake. Now I think their is a better percentage of it being real, but the quality of the film that is online doesn't permit a decision either way.

Tack: Thank you, I really mean that. And the more I think about it, the dizziness was more than likely more related to the shock of the impact than the blood loss.

[This message has been edited by FutureRanger2000 (edited 06-06-2001).]

Sharky

6 June 2001, 05:38

Either way.....better him than me. Fuckem. I couldn't care less if they all killed each other off. 2 less problems we will have to worry about, Chechnya and Russia.

------------------
F.I.D.O.

Ted

6 June 2001, 11:31

Tell it like it is, Sharkly!

That's one of the last places in the world that I want to visit.

MadMatt

6 June 2001, 11:49

Looks real to me and I'm agreeing with Sharky here.
Also, why would those people over there make a FAKE snuff film like that when they have all the resourses and freedom to make a REAL snuff film ?

Mad Matt

XavieN

6 June 2001, 13:06

I'm standing almost neutral, leaning towards real.

Good points all around. Intelligent discussion I must say, with arguments and all, not just name calling and unbacked up .

The phrase "listen and learn" really applies.

Bob1234

6 June 2001, 14:34

Crap, I couldn't sleep last night after seeing that thing.
I kept thinking the Chechens were gonna get me...
Creepy stuff...

Bob

Cole

6 June 2001, 18:09

Brutal video, but thats nothing for those savages. There is a link to a news story Ranger Hazen put up. Something about tieing prisoners extremities to tanks and ripping them apart...I think I'm with Sharky. This shit has been happening throughout recorded history, and I don't see it stopping in the near future. Lets just work hard to make sure that doesn't happen here.
As for the purpose of the video, the Chechians film all kinds of brutal stuff for propaganda purposes. Here is some more info http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/Forum1/HTML/001146.html

[This message has been edited by Cole (edited 06-06-2001).]

Watsy

6 June 2001, 18:47

I have been watching it and reading your comments...I believe it's real...Why would it not be...in that part of the world...
Watsy

------------------
Take calculated risks.
That is quite different from being rash.
George S. Patton

Watsy

6 June 2001, 18:50

JR,
You site a book "On Killing" could you mention the author or publisher...I would be interested in finding it...thanks.
Watsy

------------------
Take calculated risks.
That is quite different from being rash.
George S. Patton

Jeff Rambo

6 June 2001, 19:25

The book was written by Dave Grossman, a Lt. Col. Dave Grossman who served with the 75th Ranger Regiment. The book has been nominated for a Pulitizer from what I could remember but I don't know if it won or not. Surely a classic either way.

You can find it on the online store at my web site by visiting this link: http://www.sourcerunner.com/marketplace/books/booklist.htm

3rd row, 2nd column.

Take care.

cecil18

6 June 2001, 21:05

Gentleman,

A friend provided the video clip on CDrom and fuck if I could sleep that night after watching it.

The one key point to take home and what nobody has touched on is:

NEVER FUCKIN SURRENDER!!!!

-Cecil out

Jeff Rambo

6 June 2001, 23:02

Just one quick note- while the link I provided in my last post works, my site isn't open to the general public yet, so ignore any errors you may find around. Although everything is pretty much 100% up. Just doing a few last minute integrations and a site-wide copy edit/review then we're hitting the "open" button.

realpolypro

7 June 2001, 00:57

I'll use Ted's "Short and Sweet" style of posting: That film is real. You cant fake that sound. Close your eyes and LISTEN...

Poly

Cree Warrior

8 June 2001, 10:54

Man, I get up in the morning, sip on my coffee, start up my computer at work and what do I want to read about? The finer intracacies of throat cutting of course.
I dont believe for a second that the same people that use REAL chemical weapons on their own troops to ensure proficiency in NBC skills, would go through the trouble of faking a film such as this (2-3% training casualties acceptable...Russians). They would simply grab some privates and do it themselves.
(By the way I havent seen it, don't want to)
Well, you guys sure made my day.

Sua Sponte

Paintman

8 June 2001, 12:33

Well, this has been an informative (and somewhat disturbing) discussion. Too bad I missed it 'till now. I'd also like to chime in that I think it's real, the sound gives it away. Good arguments on all sides.

Chris

Aqaba

8 June 2001, 15:16

JR -

Did LtCol Grossman serve with the 75th? In his book he lists the units he was with, but the Ranger Regt isn't one of them.

[This message has been edited by Aqaba (edited 06-08-2001).]

andrew51

8 June 2001, 16:47

jeez man thats some disturbing stuff period. man were the hell did u find that clip futureranger2000? what kinda sicko would even put that out there? god almighty......my eyes r burning.by the way futureranger2000 were in NJ r u from? cause im from there to

FutureRanger2000

8 June 2001, 17:19

Someone posted it on this site a few months back, when the whole "Combat Missions" thing started. There is definitely no shortage of sicko's on the internet. I'm from Camden County, about 10 miles from Philadelphia. A town called Cherry Hill. It's the greatest town on earth if you ask me. And by the way, Jeff, I just remembered you live in L.A. THE LAKERS ARE GOING DOWN!!!! SIXERS IN SIX!!!!
http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

Jeff Rambo

8 June 2001, 19:33

Aqaba,

I'll move to strike WRT my statement about LtCol Grossman serving in the regiment until it can be confirmed.

He's been addressed as a Former Regiment officer by several here on the board, and it is stated on most of the reviews.

I believe I also remember the Regiment not being listed though. I don't have the book on hand right now though.

A51-

The clip was originally posted by a SOCNET poster last year. The subject & link came back up several months prior when I posted the link again at the request of DFC. Now it has come back up, and I've posted the link again ...

FR2000-

I hate to break it to you, but it's going to be 1988 all over again in Los Angeles. The Lakers win the Finals. The Dodgers win the World Series. I'll be blasting "I Love LA" by Randy Newman all year long ...

grrlcop74

8 June 2001, 20:16

Lt. Col. Grossman also did a piece on the desensitization of juveniles to killing via video games, movies, and the like. Interesting work. It is my understanding that's how he makes his living these days--writing and giving seminars. I have the above article if anyone is interested.

Kristen

Lima_Bravo

8 June 2001, 23:51

I saw Lt.Col. Grossman on a Discovery show. It was about how the Army use repetition and drill (the stimulus/response principle) to train soldiers to kill without thinking. It was a pretty good show, it also talked about how sniping was one of the psychologically most demanding way of killing, next to the knife.

As for the story of POWs being ripped between tanks, here's a quick link. It's not from a sick fuck site (Consumption Junction for example...), but from a news site, which makes it even more disturbing...Unless it's bogus, which I doubt.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/updates/lat_crimes000917.htm

------------------
The more you sweat in peacetime, the less you bleed in combat

Paintman

9 June 2001, 02:20

Thank you for the link Lima Bravo, a very interesting read. Sounds like Vietnam all over.

Chris

XavieN

9 June 2001, 06:32

I'm still leaning towards thinking that the clip is real but anywho;
the sound, stuff like that can be added afterwards. You have already mentioned sounds like that when butchering pigs, and other animals. They could just record that from the nearest farm and take it to the clip.

Also, how do you know the Chechens made it? The text in the beginning (I know, probably an editing for the online version, by english people) is english. If aimed from Chechens to Russians, why would they bother easily enraging the other parts of the world by taking english text so everybody knows it's a russian soldier getting killed?

How do you know Chechens made it (even though likely)? Could be some Americans doing it for fun and to avoid suspicsion they say it's different countries than their own. Could be some people from some other country who just don't want peace in that area faking it to stir up the conflict, for some reason. Why not? Why not somebody who just want to provoke people? Maybe provoking just for people to get mad, or provoking people so that they contact their government to make them aim peacekeeping to that region, or something like that.

That CD of yours, do you have the full thing on it or just the same downloadable clip?

andrew51

9 June 2001, 11:32

hey, i just went to that link lima bravo gave us. its a pretty good article. by the way futureranger2000, im from union county,nj.

RogueExec

9 June 2001, 11:57

Originally posted by FutureRanger2000:
A town called Cherry Hill. It's the greatest town on earth if you ask me.
http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

FR, purely from the curiosity of a historian (yeah, right), how did Cherry Hill get it's name? I'm thinking of moving out there in the near future IF it's name is derived for a, ummmm, certain reason. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

FutureRanger2000

9 June 2001, 11:59

It's good to have another New Jerseyan on the board.

FutureRanger2000

9 June 2001, 12:33

Rogue, you sick sick man.... Cherry Hill's name is in remembrance of the Cherry Hill Farm, a large farm that existed in the 1800s that had many many cherry tree's and cherry orchards. Also, one of the main roads in Cherry Hill is Chapel Avenue, which is lined for about 3 miles with Cherry Blossom trees. We used to have an annual parade on that street called the Cherry Blossom parade, in the springtime when the cherry blossom trees were starting to bloom. In 1991, it focused on recognizing the veterans of the Gulf War, and one of the main people there was Lt. Jeffrey Zaun, an A-6 pilot who was shot down and subsequently captured on the first night of the air war. My Aunt's wedding shower was on the day that the parade was held, and everyone was so busy that no one could take me to the parade. Because everyone else was so busy, my Grandpa snuck me away from the house and took me up there to see all the events and meet Lt. Zaun. That's one of the greatest memories I have. My Grandpa, may God rest his soul. In 1992 or 1993, a Democratic mayor took over and canceled the parade, saying that the town was to sophisticated for parades. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/frown.gif Yeah right. Cherry Hill is blue collar all the way, too sophisticated my ass. I can't wait for this mayor to get the hell out so we can get the parades started again. Anyways, for more info on Cherry Hill, visit www.cherryhill-nj.com (http://www.cherryhill-nj.com) .

emre

9 June 2001, 13:14

Xavien, so much for conspiracy theories, but that clip is from well publicized execution of 9 omon soldiers,no chechen denies it,and they are proud of those butcherings.If you search the web,official and pro-chechen sites,you can (or could, by the way some of the more gruesome ones removed,possibly too much even for them) find stories and pics of executions.Are those sites maintained by russians?No way.Chechens justify their deeds by saying that they only execute professional soldiers,mercenaries,members of special police units.
And for note, chechens are muslim, and their leaders force them ancient islamic rules,sheriat, and they love to cut throats and beheadings.

FR 2000, I understand you don't want the accept the fact that that clip is real,but I've seen unedited version on video,and more from that series of executions,and believe me what you saw is nothing, compared to others.
Keep in mind,russians does not need propaganda films like that,if you visit lovely chechenya, you can watch and shoot your own -cut throat public execution- film.(or you'll end up hostage and get your own throat slit,if your family isn't rich enough to pay them, for that matter)

Ranger002

9 June 2001, 14:49

I stayed away from this thread and now I want to put in my two cents...
FR you're a good kid and I agree with Tack on that. You and the rest of the youngins take heed... what you may have to do in the future in the service of your country MAY go beyond anything you can imagine.The world is growing more brutal and dangerous by the day.
I highy reccommend the following books for those who wish to further understand the nature of warfare and violence. "The Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sajer. "The Face of Battle" by John Keegan. "With the Old Breed" by Ernest Sledge. Dave's book is very good (On Killing) and this will round it out. I also suggest you folks get a copy of the book "Aftermath: The Remnants of War" by Donovan Webster. War is not a game where everyone goes home and moves on...This guy describes how 75 YEARS after WWI (and 50 years after WWII) There is a branch of the French Civil Service the does NOTHING BUT dig up and dispose of old ordnance from those wars. They dig up TONS of the shit every day. Another haunting story is the one where he interviews a Russian farmer who digs up thousands of old skeletons from WWII (He lives near Stalingrad now Vogolgrad) every time he plants in the spring.
I don't want to get off track here but I am now longer in harms way and I was very lucky. I don't know if "forwarned is forarmed"...However you don't have to look very far to see where we might be sending you guys next and the kind of folks we may be dealing with. We have been very fucking lucky these last 25 years and I hope our "luck" holds...That is the message of the tape to me. No one should have to die like that...
William Hazen
PS. Please guys I know we have had a alot of brave men die the last 25 years so by "Luck" I do not mean to discount them and thier sacrifice. I am talking about total all out War.

andrew51

9 June 2001, 17:25

darn, its like the friggin dark age down in chechen country

Michael Robertson Moore

9 June 2001, 20:27

Let me echo Ranger Hazen on the subject of E.B. Sledge's "With The Old Breed." It's the best of first-person account of the war in the pacific (maybe of war, period) that I've read. An absolute must-read. Get your hands on a copy.

XavieN

10 June 2001, 09:40

Thank you very much for passing on those names of the books, I'm going to get a hold of them later on when I get back (I'm going on a camp on tuesday for 4 weeks). Let me just clarify that even though I might not be totally aware of how horrible war can be, I still/already know that it's very terryfying (to say the least) and I KNOW that memories from battle lives on afterwards. But thank you for bringing this to attention.

(Btw, Hazen, do you mind sending me the pics any time soon? I'll leave on tuesday but you never sent me those pics of you and your trainers/Masters/friends)

And for note, chechens are muslim, and their leaders force them ancient islamic rules,sheriat, and they love to cut throats and beheadings.

First of all, I normally don't surf around on Chechens (or pro-chechen) sites so I wasn't aware of that they are proud of those kind of flicks, even though it's understandable (if they made it and put it on the net, then it's obvious they aren't ashamed of it). Also, I wasn't aware that the place this clip was downloadable from was so respected/known for having "true stuff".

But on the quote above (maybe I missunderstood), why would their leaders have to force them the ancient rules, sheriat (with throat cutting and beheadings) if they already love that? I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I just think it sounds weird and would like you to explain that.

On the other hand it doesn't matter that much if this clip is real or not, sadly. Since it is after all just one among lot's of torturing deaths. Not saying that the soldier's life isn't worth anything, but that even though if the clip is fake, stuff like that happens all the time (like others here said) and one less is good, but hardly significant. Lost among hundreds (thousands perhaps) of others.

"On dead man is catastrophic. The death of a million is a statistic." Weird. (I don't want to back up the quote, cause I don't support it 100% but it is true to a certain degree)