No Room For Error

[dsumner]

Picked it up while I was home this weekend. Pretty good read so far. It's nice to be able to look at his point of view of some of the more well known operations (Eagle Claw, Grenada, etc. ) and compare them with other accounts (One Perfect Op, Inside Delta Force, Delta Force, The Guts to Try, Rouge Warrior, Combat Swimmer).

My only gripes are that:

1) Carney some times makes it sound like Delta, ST-6, SF, and the Rangers couldn't function at all without his Special Tactics guys there to lead them around by the hand.

2) There's to many damned general officer photos. I would have prefered that the photos be of the enlisted and junior officers STT members he speaks so highly of.

Anyone else read it yet?

[Sharky]

Originally posted by dsumner
1) Carney some times makes it sound like Delta, ST-6, SF, and the Rangers couldn't function at all without his Special Tactics guys there to lead them around by the hand.


Haven't read the book but, AFST folks exist to support shooters. God love em, they are the best in the business, but they never led ANYBODY around by the hand that I saw. PJ, CCT, CW, whatever......they are all there to support. That's it. If he thinks he or his men could have done better in a tier 1 or 2 unit, he should've signed up for it. I hate hearing about BTDT's talking shit like that. He must be the exception, as most AFST guys I ever met knew their role, were the best in the world at that role and never tried to act like they were something that they were not.

[SN]

Sharky,

I read the book and did not get the idea that Coach was bad-mouthing Delta or six.

His main problem was the fact that his package kept getting cut but delta, six, ranger leadership.

I worked with him twice, and never heard him bad-mouth anyone else. Maybe he did it in private with his guys, but I never heard him publicly bad mouth other operators.

[SATCOM]

Being a CCT and knowing Col. Carney, I can honestly say that he NEVER said that "those units" had to be led around by STS. If MAC (or TAC) planes were involved in an operation then it was the purview of USAF STS to handle the DZ/LZ/ATC/HLZ/Survey work associated with the control and most importantly SAFETY of that gazillion dollar airframe.

The STS operators that I work with know their role (like The Rock says). We are not door kickers etc. I have guarded many a door in the rear of a stack over the years while others (supremely qualified) did their work. Nothing more, nothing less. They, in turn, let me handle EVERYTHING dealing with aviation/fire support plans. This responsibility is a big one and ultimately frees up the team leader (or anyone else) to concentrate on his task. The book explains WHY STS was created and gives a few examples as evidence. I have worked with ----------- (insert a military service) who said that they would provide air traffic control for a mission. Many times this decision was made way above my pay grade (MSG) level and experience (20 years), yet mistakes/miscommunications/unprofessionalism marked their performance at critical junctions. I profess that you must have "airman providing airmanship", so that when you need a MC-130 to hit the dirt and pick you up at a certain TOT, it happens. No excuses.

My most recent deployment was the smoothest in my career. The ODA commander and TL knew the value of what CCT brought to the table. Consequently I was given the green light on every aviation-related subject (including MH-60's). That was pretty much all I did for months. Mission planning dealing with this stuff can be boring and complicated, but they trusted my experience and most importantly ATTITUDE. I was taught that I was a support troop. I am on the mission solely to provide combat air control, otherwise I would be back at base X with ODB monitoring a HF net.

Last week I talked with "Coach" Carney and had him sign a copy of his book for me. I read it with an insiders perspective. There WERE too many pictures of certain General officers. I think there should have been more shots of the operators he extolled. Senior NCO's were his mentors and shaped him into the outstanding officer that he became. He (and every senior officer) was shown professionalism on a grand scale by these NCO's who guided him and made him into a leader. Overall the book was good, but I would have preferred a few changes. Lets be honest guys, how many books have been written about STS?

[Sharky]

First of all, I prefaced my comments by saying that I haven't read the book. I don't know Carney, so I can't judge. I was going solely by what was stated in the original post. I do stand by my comments though. CCT support is nice, but I've ran many DZ's without them. ATC? Yep, I got that class too. Can they do it better? Absolutely, and I would never dream of pretending otherwise. CCT support usually meant a big sigh of relief because it is a huge responsibility and having them there is like checking the block. You know it'll be done, and it'll be done right. One less thing to worry about. Didn't mean to come across as bad mouthing anyone and maybe I should have withheld my post. If it came across as badmouthing Carney, then I apologize. But you all know exactly what I was talking about. Sometimes folks get the idea that they are indispensable or that they know more than they do. We've all seen it, and not just in the military. Like I said, AFST guys are the absolute best at what they do and I have nothing but respect for you guys. You are the pro's from Dover. But the 10% rule is still in effect and ego's do get inflated on occasion. I'll shut my piehole until I get a chance to read the book.

[SATCOM]

I too, should apologize. I originally was referring to comments made by dsummer. I think (after reading the book) that I may have had a jaundiced view of the battles that Carney fought for the inclusion of STS in those operations. The lessons were hard-won, after a string of real-world and exercise scenarios gone awry. Thus was the formation of SOCOM as we know (and love) today. The melding of Army/USAF for these ops gets better and better as time and terrorists have found out.

[wolfhound227]

Good book..damn good book.

It reads like a Ranger who's who.

If you are interested at all in Special Operations then this book is one to read.

[dsumner]

Sorry for taking so long to jump back in to the fray gents, I've been out of town. It appears as though I've started some sort of pissing contest, and that was not my original intent.

I'm not here to bash "coach" Carney or Special Tactics. I think they do a hell of a job. All I said was that IMO, a few of Carney's comments made it sound like some of the units he worked with couldn't do their jobs without STS guys.

I'm not saying I'm correct, that's just the way I took it. :(

let me once again say that If I've offended anyone, I didn't intend to.

[Gulf Yankee]

I just finished the book myself and did not come away with the impression that some have claimed.

I found the book very interesting, particularly the discussion on Grenada and the mistakes that were made. I recommend the book to anyone interested in SOF and recent history.

[Rob1]

*bumb*
(Yeah, I know it's a very old thread)

I just finished "No room for error". It's a very interesting account, moreover in the STS area about which I have not found many documentation.

Some little bad points, though.
- the lineage of CCS/STS is not clearly stated (only Carney's unit, Brand X). It's strange to read that the "17" designations were dropped in 1992 and read the units called 24th STS or 23rd CCS in the Panama/Desert Storm parts.
- some mistakes in the "researched parts" (opposed to the parts where Carney tells his own story). Especially in the review of claims about intel on Grenada, they quote Steven Emerson's Secret Warriors about the story of a Lockheed L-1011 of a black "civilian" called Southern Air Transport carrying 500MDs helos from West Coast to Florida. But actually Emerson's book said it was a Lockheed L-100 (the Hercules' civilian variant, the L-1011 is the three engine jet airliner also known as TriStar), and the company involved was Sumairco, not Southern Air Transport. I was also surprised to read that the assault on Punta Patilla airfield was made by SEAL Team Six, all I had read said it was SEAL Team Four.
- generally speaking, the book is a mix of personnal account (Carney's recollections), listing of reports of other guys (Achille Lauro, and the most recent ops), and after-action in-depth analysis (generaly good, especially the Grenada part). All are interesting, but the whole is a bit strange. They could also have detailled the history of CCTs (and PJs as well), and explained differences from FAC and TACPs.

Well, I have the habit to list my bad remarks, but don't conclude I don't like the book. It could be better to me on some points (nothing is perfect), but overall the book is good, it really interested me and I learnt many things.