Gulf War reconnaissance patrols

[Tuukka]

Atleast 2 US Army SF patrols and one SAS patrol(B20) were compromised when children spotted them. The US teams were in dug out holes, the SAS patrol in a wadi when spotted. How much was this planned beforehand, that non combatants would pose a high risk of compromise to the patrols. Shows that even with men of this caliber it doesn´t take much for missions to go to wrong.

[Tracy]

It's almost an article of faith in SOF that there's only two things guaranteed to blow an operation: little old ladies and kids. Desert Storm just re-emphasized it.

All SOF ground units rehearse being compromised; regardless of source.

[JSOCMarine]

Tracy,
I agree with your take but would like to add a third element that is often the cause of unit compromise: dogs.

Dogs seem to be everywhere in most AO's (except Korea!) and they can hear, smell and sense the presence of strangers way before the enemy can. Once alerted they will yip and yap and before you know it a dozen or so mutts will be letting anyone in the vicinity know that something is not right.

"Man's best friend" is often his worst enemy in situations such as this! S/F

[Tuukka]

Atleast in B20 the barking of the dogs seemed not to alert the owners in the Gulf, guess they thought that they were just yapping away to any passer by.

[Bravo Five Romeo]

I served in a LRSD. Biggest problem I've had (training only, not real world)is the difference between night and day. When you get to your ORP, what looks like a perfect hide spot at night turns out to be practically in plain site by light of day... and by then you can't do a damn thing except either risk moving in the daytime to find a better hide or wait til nightfall, hoping not to be compromised in the meanwhile, and seek out a new hide.
As far as the planning for being compromised, every operations order for every reconaissance patrol has contingency plans for emergency extractions or at least E&E on foot. Every good operations order has contingency plans for contingency plans.

[WS-G]

Right you are, B5R! I'll be another to tell any intel f***wit that a Luftwaffe F-104G screaming 50' AGL directly over one's head says 'compromise' far more authoritatively than any barking dog could ever hope to accomplish.

[Sharky]

I'm not even gonna ask, Russ....LOL

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[Doc]

Geese are used as watch dogs Sharky. They work very well.

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[Sharky]

Yeah, I was just trying to give Russ some shit.....LOL. Actually, if it's watchdog material we're talking about, a guinea is even worse. They won't attack you like one of those psycho geese but they do wake up easier and make a lot of racket when they do. http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/wink.gif

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[realpolypro]

You got something against Italians?....LOL!

[Tracy]

Originally posted by JSOCMarine:

I agree with your take but would like to add a third element that is often the cause of unit compromise: dogs...


True, but what are dogs usually attached to? Kids.

Russ: Geese don't make as much noise if you buy them dinner first...

[justagrunt]

Russ... LMFAO&PMP!!!!!!!

[REMF]

You didn't by any chance ask if you could scrape together some goose liver pate on the way out, did you?

Shows that even with men of this caliber it doesn´t take much for missions to go to wrong.

From what I remember reading, Chief Balwanz's (sp?) team had been told the locals wouldn't be out in the fields at that time of the year. S2 can help you a little bit, or it can hurt you a whole bunch.

I would say it's because of the caliber of the men involved in those missions that they were all able to exfil everyone alive. It especially spoke well of them that they weren't going to start off their part of the war by killing a kid.

[soup82]

Dogs are used in the middle east for guard duty. I did a trip in Oman through the Empty Quarter in January for Land Rover. 1400 kms offroad, from the UAE border to the Yemen border, along the Saudi Border. We stopped at two forts. Both had dogs around. Knowing how the locals disliked dogs, I asked about them. They told me they were there as guards (harris). The name of the forts were Bu Tabul, just below the Umm al Sammim, and Shigag, on the tri borders area.

There are people everywhere in the desert and I don't think we take them into account in training (I've been out 7 years). I worked as support at Pine Bluff in Arkansas during a JRTC training cycle. A team was tasked to infiltrate the base. They decided to come in by the river, at night, in Zodiacs. There were guys fishing all over the place and they didn't sneak up on anyone. They had a dam to go around, instead they arranged to go through the locks. My question afterwards was, why didn't they just rent a fishing boat, get a bunch of fishing poles and look like they belonged? I imagine the team came up with that idea and it was immediately shot down. Somewhere at nosebleed level somebody has made the decision that locals aren't going to be in the areas we operate in. Hopefully the past missions in the Balkans have changed that attitude.

Cheers,

Patrick LaRocque

[Tracy]

Originally posted by REMF:
[i]
I would say it's because of the caliber of the men involved in those missions that they were all able to exfil everyone alive...


Rest of the story: What you didn't hear about the 'Sharkmen' was that when they destroyed their excess equipment prior to evading, they hung onto the SATCOM Radio and handset, but blew up their SATCOM Antenna. What's wrong with this picture? They made contact via a survival radio with the F-16s coming in to smoke Iraqis. They jury-rigged an antenna to talk LOS to the fighters and helos inbound to their location. They modified their evasion SOP after that... ;-)

[REMF]

Holy shit! I don't think I would want to hear the commo guy say "This should work" during the middle of a running firefight. I can only imagine the AAR comments in regards to the SOP...

"Oh yeah, one small adjustment we think would be a good idea. See, we had this tiny little commo problem..."

[soup82]

That wasn't the only thing they blew up! How about "Hey guys, don't get shot"

Cheers,

Patrick LaRocque

[Doc]

GUY,

You should be getting your ticket tomorrow.

You owe me a beer sometime.

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[Tuukka]

Guy, those are the ones i have read about. Guess our intel sources are a bit different http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/smile.gif

[REMF]

Tuuka,

In "The Commandos", he does mention that several other teams were compromised, not sure on the number. So that part is somewhat known.

But you're right about the intel bit. Guy probably knows names and ODA numbers considering he doesn't have to read a book to find out.