Were paper tabs a real thing?

[cj91]

I thought this is the right place to ask this question. I got out of the NG a while back. When I was there the Sgt Major for the Battalion had a SF tab. A Spec-4 in my platoon told me that the Sgt Major didnt go to the Q course but got his tab by meeting the requirements at the time for the guard. I didnt think this Spec was BSing me he was a Ranger on active before coming to the guard.

I want to know if this was possible?

Does anyone have the requirements.

When did this go into effect if it even existed ?

[cj91]

I see that it must be too late to be up. I saw in a post by RangerHazen that he was in the program but it was discontinued.


RangerHazen can you give me some info on the program and what you thoght about it.

[Ranger002]

I am not sure when it started (sometime back in the late 60's I think) But JFKSWC had the reserve component Q Course. Basically you studied the class room instruction via corespondance course and when you passed the courses you went to the different phases during your AT. I know of several folks who got thier long tab via this route. The active duty guys didn't like it as they thought we were getting over ( and the truth is we were for the most part) but we liked it because (at least in my unit) most of the folks in it were Rangers or ex-Viet Vets with wives, kids and civvie careers (most of my unit were LAPD,LASO and ATF, FBI guys) and no one could afford to go back on active duty for 18+ months. I went through and passed Phase 1 and 2 but before phase three I suffered a major injury during a drill weekend (on a jump) and by the time I got back in shape SOCOM had eliminated the course and was requiring guys to go active to get thier tabs. The reserve SF unit I was in was a joke when it came to admin functions and it took forever and a day to get any schools. Sometimes I had to wait 18 to 24 months(!!!!) to get a slot to the active part of the course. Most of the guys I know that have paper tabs have retired and the few that are still around are no different than the regular guys. Like my man Guy says... the tab don't make the man... The man makes the tab.
William Hazen ODA332 C/3/12 SFGA 1982-1992

[cj91]

I see it wasn't too late over on the other coast to reply. Thanks for the quick answer

I guess that alot of things were possible before for the reserve or guard groups.

I did not want to make it look like you don't rate to wear the title.

I understand about the man making the tab. Even if someone didnt go the whole active school and they did their job they are SF.

HOP out

[This message has been edited by cj91 (edited 07-16-2001).]

[E19]

I'm not sure of the exact year but the correspondence courses started shortly after
the USAR and NG groups were formed in 1961.

It was a "paper flash" rather then a "paper tab" back then because the long tab didn't exsist. SF Q'd was designated by wearing the flash...all others in group wore "striker (candy) bars".


Oh well, it's time for my Geritol!

[cj91]

I did know that non qualed persons did not wear group flashes but I didnt know that the Special Forces tab wasn't worn back then a looonnnggg time ago!

I know bad joke.

You learn something knew everyday.
HOP out.

[This message has been edited by cj91 (edited 07-16-2001).]

[RogueExec]

Originally posted by RangerHazen:
I am not sure when it started (sometime back in the late 60's I think) But JFKSWC had the reserve component Q Course. Basically you studied the class room instruction via corespondance course and when you passed the courses you went to the different phases during your AT. I know of several folks who got thier long tab via this route. The active duty guys didn't like it as they thought we were getting over ( and the truth is we were for the most part) but we liked it because (at least in my unit) most of the folks in it were Rangers or ex-Viet Vets with wives, kids and civvie careers (most of my unit were LAPD,LASO and ATF, FBI guys) and no one could afford to go back on active duty for 18+ months. I went through and passed Phase 1 and 2 but before phase three I suffered a major injury during a drill weekend (on a jump) and by the time I got back in shape SOCOM had eliminated the course and was requiring guys to go active to get thier tabs. The reserve SF unit I was in was a joke when it came to admin functions and it took forever and a day to get any schools. Sometimes I had to wait 18 to 24 months(!!!!) to get a slot to the active part of the course. Most of the guys I know that have paper tabs have retired and the few that are still around are no different than the regular guys. Like my man Guy says... the tab don't make the man... The man makes the tab.
William Hazen ODA332 C/3/12 SFGA 1982-1992

When these "paper" guys did the AT's, how did they break up the phases???

[Ranger002]

Each Phase was done over successive ADTs (One per year) and lasted three to four weeks. You could not attend the the Active portion of each Phase without a certificate of graduation from the classroom portion and you had to pass each course with at least a B(80%)average. Ideally it would take only three years to get your tab (or Flash as E19 had mentioned) However with all the snafus mentioned in my previous post the average time it took to take and Graduate the course was 4 to 6 years ( There was one stretch were no one from my unit went anywhere for 3 years!). C/3/12 had a history of being fucked up admin wise and we were also dead last in the pecking order school wise. For a while instead of our Batt being attached to HQ 12th Group back in Arlington Heights Ill, for Admin purposes we were "assigned" to the 351st Ca Command out of Mountain View. So it works like this... JFKSWC gives each Reserve and NG so many slots per year for each 18 Series MOS. These slots were weighted towards the NG ( because of course the states footed a large part of the NG bill) so those slots go get allocated by the groups down to the Batts and from the Batts to the Companies except in our case where they went to the 351st. Now depending on the mood of the non-SF leg schools NCO he would allocate them to whatever company was sucking his dick the hardest that year ( let me tell you the LA BOYZ were always in hot water LOL). I have many tales of him rejecting applications due to words not-being Capitalzed or sentences with no periods...AND YOU COULD NEVER EVER GET THE FUCKER ON THE PHONE OR TO TALK TO YOU I SHIT YOU NOT LOL. This MOFO thought we could not go to war if the paper work was not 100% LOL. Anyways for a few years it made going anywhere really hard and allot of guys just quit. I wish I could remember th guys name and if I ever meet him well it aint going to be pretty LOL. Thus ends this tale as the suns fades into the sea. Time to think of Kirsten and what yet may cum to be....
William Hazen ODA332 C/3/12 SFGA

[DeltaJimi]

A similiar story:

My grandfather had the Green Beret issued to him. And he never went through SFQC. Back then, they never had an assessment and selection phase.

I'm not sure if he ever wore it, but I assume he did, for a short while.

Regulations and policies vary from time to time. He wasn't in a support unit as such, as far as I remember. Support MOS, yes, I'm sure. I think he was in a line unit, or perhaps a headquarters unit. It was the part of the 19th Special Forces Group - National Guard, if I remember correctly.

The thing is, people assigned to an SF unit who were not Special Forces qualified would sometimes wear the beret with "bar," also called a candystripe. Back then, some people wore it before they became Special Forces qualified. Others just wore the crest (for enlisted), or rank; without the Group "flash," which is the background worn behind the crest or rank. A full flash, as opposed to a candystripe or no flash at all, would be the denominator for those who were fully "flash qualified."


[This message has been edited by DeltaJimi (edited 07-16-2001).]

[grrlcop74]

I wondered why I had the sudden urge to go take a shower....LOL.

Kristen

[Whatever]

Kirsten:

Just got a visual involving urination and field generators.

Almost made me scream like a bitch...

Mike

(Back in the net)

Remember when they phased out the correspondence program in the 86-87 time frame. It happened concurrently when Special Forces Assessment and Selection went on line.

Was in the first SFQC to do the STAR Land Nav Course and had the priviledge of watching the first test SFAS class climb off the trucks behind the Code Lab in '86 - it sucked to be them, it was good to be me...

As the Hazen-Nator stated some good folks graduated from the correspondence program but alot of weak people snivelled their way through as well. The quality of the force vastly improved when it went "off line".

MW

[Ranger002]

Hey Mike,

Agreed...Allot of Guard Guys got "Political Tabs/Flashs" (sons of Guard Officers and shit) that and other things earned the well deserved disdain of the Active Guys. It was actually Phased out in 89/90 and the last Phase 3 class graduated in the summer of 90. Good to see you back...
William Hazen

[Whatever]

1. Roger that Bill.

2. Good to be back - Beer - Hot showers - regular bowel movements - Ah, the good life...

[cj91]

Thanks for all the replys!

One more question. When this was possible how did someone get selected to be SF qualed in the Guard or Reserves if there was no SFAS? What were the requirements other than being airborne?

I can see where some people might have been given special treatment. I think that the National Guard still has the stigma of a good old boy network. Not all units are like that now(I Hope NOT!). Now that the Army reserve is getting rid of the combat units and will only be support units.


HOP out.

[Ranger002]

HOP,

SFAS did not start till 87 or 88. Before that Phase 1 was used to weed out folks. Even though my Phase 1 was the "Paper" one We still lost close to half the class for failure to meet standards.
William Hazen

[E19]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DeltaJimi:


“My grandfather had the Green Beret issued to him. And he never went through SFQC.”

In the 60’s all personnel (legs too) assigned to an SF Group at Bragg wore the Green Beret. The USAR and NG groups generally did not allow non-airborne personnel (Rep-63 recruits & other transfers) to wear the beanie.

“Back then, they never had an assessment and selection phase.”

Phase 1 of the SFQC was the assessment and selection phase.


“Regulations and policies vary from time to time.”

Yes they do.

“The thing is, people assigned to an SF unit who were not Special Forces qualified would sometimes wear the beret with "bar," also called a candystripe.” Others just wore the crest (for enlisted), or rank; without the Group "flash," which is the background worn behind the crest or rank.”

Everyone assigned to an SFG who was not SF Q’d should have been wearing that Groups recognition bar (candy bar) on their beret.

I can only think of one situation where wearing the beret without the flash or bar was authorized. SFTG students in Phase II & Phase III going through the Q-Course wore the beret with only the SF crest.







[This message has been edited by E19 (edited 07-17-2001).]

[DeltaJimi]

Originally posted by E19:
In the 60’s all personnel (legs too) assigned to an SF Group at Bragg wore the Green Beret. The USAR and NG groups generally did not allow non-airborne personnel (Rep-63 recruits & other transfers) to wear the beanie.

He was in the National Guard, a leg, lived in Farmingdale, NY; and was still issued the Green Beret. I have it.

He wanted to go through jump school, but when he reported to his new unit two months later to leave, it got deactivated.

The question is, did he wear it? I assume he did, atleast for a short while. Cause why else would they have given him the Green Beret?

“Back then, they never had an assessment and selection phase.”

I'm sorry, I meant to say that they didn't have a SFAS and SFQC seperately. I should've written that out better. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by DeltaJimi (edited 07-17-2001).]

[E19]

Deltajimi,

What year was he in the SF unit?

What color is the candy bar?

[RifleMaster]

Haze,

Was C/3/12 SFGA located at Fort Mac?

After Nam and completing my degree I went back in the Cal NG (40th Inf; 1979-1980) and tried to transfer to the SFGA at Fort Mac. In the 40th, I completed several courses, was promoted to SSG, and was given a Platoon. I was also considering applying for a direct commission based on RVN, awards, and degree. However, I got tired of babysitting, and got out.

In 1980, I also started instructing evening classes at Fullerton College so I did not look back after getting out.

Oh, the 1st shirt in the 40th was a 5th SFGA Vet so it wasn't too bad.

Just wondering!

Carl



[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 07-18-2001).]

[Ranger002]

Carl,

It was stationed at Ft Mac till 84 then we moved down to Los Alimitos AFRC where it still is today (as D/3/19)
William Hazen

[RifleMaster]

Bill....Thanks!

This question is somewhat off subject, but this discussion is about entering SF in ways other than standard selection.

So, how would you guys rate Franklin D. Miller (CMOH) volunteering for Special Forces in RVN and eventually becoming a MACV SOG 10? Would any of you guys have told him he was not qualified to wear the 5th Group Flash on his beret?

How do you equate BTDT with been trained?

Carl



[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 07-18-2001).]

[E19]

Carl,

Doug Miller's obit in "The Drop" (Fall 2000)says that he completed the SF Engineer Course, and the SF Light Weapons Course.

Running recon for SOG was different from what was taught at SFTG. I wonder when
he was awarded the flash.

[wally]

I remember some phase 6ers in Phase 1 at SFQC July 88. When they finished their two weeks they got on the truck to head home to the correspondence courses. I think it pissed the instructors off and they decided to take it out on us. Soup88 you should remember that. Also remember the E-7 who preached to us that the only way he would quit would be them dragging him out of the compound? Quit that night on guard duty and took 2 E-6s with him.

[Whatever]

Bill (Hazen)

1. Small correction on the S.F. Company in Los Alamitos. It is actually A/5/19th. They also have a presence in the Monterey Bay area-forget the exact location.

2. I know the AGRs and some of the Bubbas out there.

Mike

[Ranger002]

Spent the day with my best friend Dan who is a paper flash/tab ex Ranger and now team Sgt with D/19. Next week he goes to Colorado with his Team CO to coordinate and OCONUS mission with a certain country's SAS lets just say these guy have to travel the golden road to get thier quals...Those who know what that mean will know who they are LOL. Danny is an excellent example of an SF Senior NCO.I am only pointing this out to show the differance between the letter and the spirit of the old Reserve Course. Like I said there was abuse however there were some good guys too... Carl's story is a rare exception (Frank Miller) but I don't want to retread old ground with the tab vs man debate. I was not qualifed and I would give my right arm to be but I did smoke every briefback I was assigned to and I did my job as an 18B as only a Ranger would when called upon. However at the end I had a very small drinking problem and it affected everything I did including SF. Thank God thats over but hey there are somethings I will never get back and one of them is the chance for a long tab. No regrets... just good memories...NOW IF THEY MADE RANGER SCHOOL A "PAPER COURSE" WELL THEN ALL HELL WOULD HAVE BROKE LOOSE LOL. Carl the key to BTDT is experiance and if there is a pecking order... I can think of only one... Combat Survivor/Non-Combat Survivor the rest of it is academic. Givin a Choice between a Leg PFC with 6 months of combat experiance or an SF TABBED SSG fresh off the boat the choice is obvious LOL I am listening to the PFC.
William Hazen

[Whatever]

1. Check and Rog

[Ranger002]

Mike,

??? I thought for sure it was D/3/19 or D/5/19. My mistake...I stand corrected
William Hazen
Do you know Tim Brickley or Jim Light?

[RifleMaster]

E19,

Because Doug Miller is my hero (unfortunately I never met him), I would also like to know when he was officially awarded his flash. His book, "Reflections of a Warrior", covers his 6 tours/years in RVN and his CMOH. He arrived in RVN in March 1966 at the rank of PFC and was assigned to the 1st Cavalry's "Blues" Recon Platoon. He was awarded a Bronze and Silver Star for actions as a SP4 in the "Blues". In his book he stated, "After two years of airborne infantry reconnaissance work I decided I'd like to work for a Special Forces unit." So, after two years (early 1968)and making E5, he went up to Nha Trang and volunteered. It is well known that at this time (1968) the 5th Group was having trouble getting qualified replacements. Doug went on to be a real hero in MACV SOG.

He probably completed the SF courses after his RVN service! Do you think he wore the MOH and a "Candy Stripe" at Bragg until he completed the courses?

Bill,

I totally agree with you about the pecking order. However, there are two types of combat survivors. There are/were survivors that just stayed alive and there are/were those that fought and saved lives. MACV Teams and SF Teams had the dedicated fighters.

Time for bed!

Carl

[Whatever]

Bill:

1. Yeah, I know Jim Light - he is still the Training NCO at Los Alamitos - saw him last week at the BN Trng Meeting in Colorado.

Mike

[DeltaJimi]

Originally posted by E19:
Deltajimi,

What year was he in the SF unit?

What color is the candy bar?

1974, for the 19th SFG.

I don't remember the color of the candy bar that he wore. When my uncle gave it to me, all's it had was the crest. I'm sending an e-mail to my uncle and my father, and atleast one of them will reply. And when they do, I'll let you know. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

[E19]

I believe in 74 that the closest detatchment of the 19th SFG to Farmingdale was located in the White Plains Armory.

[DeltaJimi]

Originally posted by E19:
I believe in 74 that the closest detatchment of the 19th SFG to Farmingdale was located in the White Plains Armory.

Yup, that's it!! White Plains Armory.

My Dad told me that when he was 8, that's where he first fired a pistol. He fired a .357. He held the pistol too far back, and when it kicked back, it cut the top of his nose. It was like less than an inch away blinding him.

[Ranger002]

Mike (Whatever),

Jim Light was the 18E on my team during the 80's and was once a very good friend. I should give him a call and say hello. He's a good guy. Being a drunk and getting sober threw a Major Monkey Wrench into my military career and I just dropped way out of site. I owe it to SOCNET that I am back in the loop. God Bless
William Hazen

[Spotlight_Ranger]

Carl,
I had a SGM in Oki that had never seen Camp Mackall. SF was short handed and recruited troops on the fly. This particular SGM was serving in the ASA in Oki when he vounteered. He was already IMC (Morse Code) qualified, he went to jump school out at Chatan on Oki (Camp Kuwe). He OJT'd and tested with all radios SF used. He did all field training at Urimoto or the NTA, and finally was assigned to 1st SFG and later 5th SFG in RVN. All of his subsequent SF assignments were 10th Grp (Devens and Tolz),and as I recall O&I did not require me to go to Mackall. So I was surprised in 87 or 88 to find during casual conversation my own company SGM had never been to Mackall. As for Frank Miller, I got to meet him when he was a SGM in Hawaii, about 1986. Really decent guy, we coin checked him, and he brought out his CMOH membership card. The response of course was, "Oh your That Miller"

[RifleMaster]

Hi E19, Haze, Spotlight, All!

I think these less standard ways of obtaining a career path of choice are great! Certainly, these examples show the value of individual determination.

I was just trying to expand the discussion. Was it on this string or the RANGER Forum where someone mentioned that some WWII Rangers were just assigned as needed and some units were designated Ranger as needed. These are good examples of men meeting the needs at the time. I think these men are RANGERS and/or Special Forces as much as anyone that ever wore the insignia. Maybe more so, if they did the job in combat.

However, I am a strong believer in obtaining the best training possible! I have mixed feelings on our training philosophy of make or break. I think the Brits have a better policy of working with an individual that has maybe one or two weak areas. We don't have a infinite pool of perfectly qualified men or women. This goes back to my service. When I enlisted in the Army during the Vietnam War, I was given a hearing profile that ended my career before it got started. My hearing profile prevented me from going into a combat arms MOS. All I have to say about this to the Army is http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/tongue.gif . Because of the need at the time, my determination and some luck got me what I wanted. In many ways, more than I wanted!

Time for Church.

Carl




[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 07-22-2001).]

[E19]

I was just thinking about "paper flashes" and it brought to mind all the different materials that I have seen flashes made from and worn on the beret.

1. fully embroidered.
2. partially embroidered on cloth
3. ribbon sewn on cloth
4. naugahyde
5. leather
6. plastic (cut from a clorox bottle - SFTG)
7. metal
8. felt

Anyone have any to add to the list?

I have only seen 3 different (official)variations of the 1st SF DUI.

Amazing how much useless trivia the brain
can store. I wonder if an SF version "Trivial Pursuit" would sell?

[This message has been edited by E19 (edited 07-22-2001).]

[RifleMaster]

Hi E19!

That's quite a list!

Were most of these different flash materials worn overseas?

A lot of unauthorized stuff was worn in field units and at RVN camps. And, some standard items were modified or put to abnormal use. I carried M79 rounds in a Claymore bag and loaded M16 magazines in another modified Claymore bag. Just wondering if front line troops did similar things in WWII and Korea.

I remember meeting a few NCO's and Officers that had field issued uniforms, from the rear, that didn't have their rank on them. I remember one LT marking his collar with a ballpoint pen to kind-of indicate his rank. No one gave a shit, there were ambushes, patrols, RIF's, etc. that were far more important than being "parade pretty"!

Just a flash back!!!

Take care my friend!

Carl

[SAPPER317]

Over in my part of the 20th Group, there are a few "paper tabbers' there. They did this during the seventies and possibly later. The reason was lack of funding to send these guys off to the actual Q course. Their hands on instructions varied from a couple of weeks to four and six weeks, or more.

One or two of the guys, well, they could be better. The others, are as Q'ed as an other; maybe more. Because they did the paper Q, they are working harder than the others.

The man makes the tab...

[Chiefc]

Riflemaster, I was lucky enough to meet CSM Miller at a SF Association gathering in Tampa, FL. He signed a copy of his book for me. God rest his soul. I doubt seriously that he would have used his MOH for an easy ride. I never did read anything that talked about his graduation from the Q course. I'm thinkin that one-zero school was enough. I also heard that the names of guys who transfered in to SF in Vietnam would find themselves on a list of Q-course graduates. Done deal! Was it right? Who knows, and who cares. I doubt anyone at fort bragg was going to teach him anything about patrolling. His team mates could have provided any cross training (Comms, Engineer ect) to make him an MOS qualified SFer. I'd take him on my detachment anytime.

Chiefc

[RifleMaster]

Hi Chief!

I wish I had met CSM Doug Miller. Our RVN service was somewhat similar, but he made it to the big league.

I'm a member of SFA Chapter XII here in Southern Cal, and COL Bank attends some of our monthly meetings. He is "The Man"!

Take care!

Carl

[colmurph]

The SF Tab didn't make the scene until about 1984. When I first got through the SFOC course in 1966 we had to complete at least 3 FTX's or Operations with the Group before we were even awarded the 3 prefix. We wore a "Candy Bar" on the Beret, and in my case it was white,red,mustard and black for the 3d Group. We weren't given the right to wear a Full Flash until the Group Commander decided that we were qualified. Col. Leroy S. Stanley gave me my Full Flash about 5 months after I had Joined the 3d. One of the guys I went through the SFOC with got his from Col. Jesse G. Ugalde about a year after graduation so it wasn't an automatic thing. I have a feeling that it was based largely on how the NCO's rated the Jr. Officers. Those were the "Good Old Days" when NCO's were still able to do "Sergeants Business" without being micro-managed by Officers who knew less about the business than they did.

Murph