Sleep Depravation

[Ahab]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this but...

Is possible to "train" yourself to require less sleep and still fully function mentally? I ask this here because I imagine that special operations might require one to remain alert and oriented for long periods of time with little/no sleep and _without_ any sort of immediate adrenalin rush...

I'm thinking of the descriptions of selection where candidates are run into the ground and then immediately afterwards required to read a number of texts and write up reports on those books...

I've met individuals who require hours less sleep than most people to function at their best... Is this just genetic luck o' the draw or can one Fully adapt to less sleep?

Thanks for your opinions!

[Ranger002]

A study was done back in the 70's on sleep deprivation. The popular theory back then was that the Soviets would go all out 24/7 and wear out the smaller units of NATO by exhausting them.
A group of Army Rangers was judged in two areas. Cognitive skills ( like reading a map and plotting a movement) and physical skills (shooting a rifle and clearing a jam)
One Group was not allowed to sleep.
One Group was allowed two hours of sleep per 24 hour period
One Group was allowed 4 hours of sleep per 24 hour period.
In the first group. The Rangers retained thier cognitive skills for three days before losing thier ability to solve the simplest of problems. Thier Physical skills declined to zero shortly afterwards (by the end of the fourth day)
In the Second group the mental and physical decline was over a period of 5 to 6 days...
In the last group they were able to function for a period of 12 to 14 days before they suffered a serious decline in their combat effectiveness...
The study determined that combat line soldiers need at least four hours of rest per 24 hour period in order to retain any kind of combat effectivness for extended operations and for short periods of time Rangers could go without rest as long as thier combat tasks were simplified. I do not know if RTB has conducted any more studies or what the SOP is for Ranger Students and if those guidelines are in use with the rest of the Army. My advice to you young man is not to think of sleep as a "bank" that you can store hours of rest. Get plenty of rest now and just prepare for (as Gary so aptly put it) the Gut Check. The RTB instructors know exzactly how far to push you. The questions is do you know...Don't worry... you will find out soon enough LOL
William Hazen 14-80

[Bro]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ahab:
Not sure if this is the right place to post this but... Is possible to "train" yourself to require less sleep and still fully function mentally?[UNQUOTE]

Want to practice sleep deprivation?
It's called college dude...
Do what I did- take a full course load at college(at least 16 units), juggle intramural sports (I did crew), and pledge a fraternity (preferably one that hazes) and you'll come closer to the FUN of sleep deprevation =)

-Bro

[Dark Helmet]

Originally posted by Bro:
[QUOTE]
Want to practice sleep deprivation?
It's called college dude...
Do what I did- take a full course load at college(at least 16 units), juggle intramural sports (I did crew), and pledge a fraternity (preferably one that hazes) and you'll come closer to the FUN of sleep deprevation =)

-Bro

Been both places (college/work/fraternity/IM sports life versus BN) and can compare. They don't.

While I am sure you may feel sleep deprived with your collegiate/life pursuits, you "only know what you know". The next time you are going to crew practice or enroute to your next class and are so tired that you have to sprinkle Copenhagen speckles in your eyes to stay awake as you pause to borrow a couple quarters from a talking cheeseburger so you can stick them into the nearest tree to get an icy cold Coke to come out the bottom of it, come back here and tell us about it. We'll be able to relate.

[This message has been edited by TackDaBoat (edited 08-25-2001).]

[para325air]

I remember my first time. Driving a 113 all night in "Black-out" conditions. Came into the refueling point.

Asked my TC, "What am I loooking at."

"Well, there is a guy on the right with a chem-lite and a chem-lite attached to the tree on the left." Then as almost an after thought, "Why what do you see?"

"Damn, all I see is a full mobile home park and everyone has thier f--n lights on." Even after I was told what I really was looking at, it still took me a couple of minutes to see it.

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Worldwide Service Provider, No Mission too Tough, No Sky too High, You Call, We'll Fall, 18 Hours or Less.

[Daredevil]

I actually took part in a sleep deprivation experiment myself in college for some extra credit in Psych. A couple of semester later I ran into the professor again and I asked him how it went.

According to his studies, and the studies of some of his peers at other institutions, missing one full day of sleep basicly just means you're tired. You don't really suffer any loss of cognitive, reasoning, or physical ability.

As was pointed out above, it got progressively worse as we went on. I went 84 straight hours. At the end, all I could remember was getting dropped off at home, turning on the TV and trying to watch it. I could hear them talking, I knew it was English, but for some reason it made no sense.

I'm sure this can't compare to a military experience, since we ate normally and didn't have to deal with environmental extremes, but it was enough to make me appreciate sleep more.

[soup82]

Expedition level adventure racing is a good place to start looking for real world sleep deprivation studies. There are some good parallels.

It's a team situation

Complex tasks such as navigation, kayaking, mountaineering, carrying heavy loads, all weather conditions, totally self supporting.

Stressful environments

Long range movements ranging from 100 to 500 kilometers or more

I have a recent e-mail somewhere, I can't remember the exact numbers, but they seem to find that the top teams could get by with a lot of 20 minute power naps as opposed to straight 2 -4 hour sessions. This is over a period of 5-10 days or more.

How does it compare to the military? Well, there have been several military oriented teams that have entered in these races. I'm not dogging em, but it took five years?? for a Seal team(racing team, not operational) to finish an Eco-challenge (Morocco, I believe, in 98). They don't have the time to train for the racing as much as some teams, but it offer some insight as to how tough these races are.

Part of being a top team is sleep management. It is a race after all and time spent sleeping is time lost. The best ones seem to have it down to a science.

Cheers,

Patrick LaRocque

[fish78]

Ahab,
You become depraved after you are sleep deprived!

[garett]

I had lots of "fun" with sleep deprivation on my course (Phase 2 Infantry Officer Training) this past summer. For some reason I wasn't affected by it too bad, I was fucked up but I saw worst. Some of the funniest things that happened this past summer happen due to sleep dep. After 5 days of recce patrolling with a couple hours of sleep a day if you were lucky enough to catch them we went into a 4 day defensive. My trench partner just happened to be Section Commander one night when we were all pretty fucked up from not getting any sleep and not really getting anything to eat for the past week. That was the funniest night of I can remember listening to that retard give orders to people that weren't there and just generally having no idea what was going on or where he was. One night on a Nav Ex one of the troops in my section that was on another patrol saw a hockey game going on in a clearing in the woods. I guess it didn't matter that it was early July.

[RifleMaster]

After my RVN service, I completed an Engineering Degree partially while starting a family and working full time. And, I believe that the combat stress made RVN far worse. Of course trainees are subjected to considerable stress to prepare them for combat.

I remember many combined ARVN and US operations, but there was one that lasted approximately three weeks that really kicked my ass. The stress of combat and the loss of sleep really did me in.

I was the Advisor to an ARVN Company of the 1st Bn, 8th Rgt. 5th Inf. Div. that was attached to a Troop of the 1st Cav. The mission of this combined operation was to search and clear a suspected VC/NVA infiltration area on the western side of the Iron Triangle (III Corps) prior to Tet 1969. The enemy really didn't like us operating in this area because they mortared our DP at least twice a day and tested our NDP defenses almost every night. So, I led Platoon size daily RIF's (Recon In Force Ops) in the jungled areas, maintained 24 hour radio contact and called-in SOP reports, and accompanied many of the nightly ambushes. We were making daily contact with the enemy. The ARVN and US troops took turns, but I was the only Advisor! As I recall, the first week of catching a few hours of sleep per night was typical. The few hours of sleep were taken on a poucho on the ground with the radio next to my head. During the second week of this, I called two fire missions to gain fire superiority in jungle fire-fights. By the end of the third week, I was having trouble keeping my thoughts straight. My counterpart, the ARVN LT, was really overseeing my actions! He also pulled me back and down as I started to move forward during a fire-fight. I believe he was looking out for me because I wasn't functioning normally because of the loss of so much sleep. I guess you would have had to have been there! There is tried, and then there is TIRED!

Charge on!

Carl



[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 08-26-2001).]

[Curtis Newkirk]

Setting in a DFP on the Osan Air Base Golf Course in 89', I saw a dude approx 75 meters out. He had a dog with him. This is day 4 of a five-day exercise, and my partner is an NCO (translate as "If I wake up and catch you sleeping, I'm going to rip you balls off"). Anyway, I woke up Sgt McDonald, and pointed out the K-9 team. He saw an additional body approximately 15 meters to the left of the K-9 team. We requested a fire team sweep the area. They had been in their "stand down" position for about two hours (sleeping). They came out and swept the field. I kept trying to redirect by radio, "He 20 meters to your left". Well, I watched them walk between the dog and his handler. McDonald looks at me and says, "Shit curt, it's just a tree". I come across the radio with and let the fire team know that I "no longer had a visual of the target". They were pissed, but returned to stand down after a few minutes of pissing and moaning. It would have been ugly if they'd known that they were pulled off the rack for a pine tree, and a ball washer. Did something similar at Silver Flag in 88' with a Joshua tree, but I shoot him several times because he wouldn't drop his weapon.

Sleep deprivation cannot be trained. Factors like physical condition, diet, and hydration are major factors when sleep isn't an option.

P.S. The only guys on the yard that should be getting more sleep than the 113 drivers are the guys on the crew served weapons.


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Nuck
"Defensor Brewus"
Defender of the beer

[Grand58742]

Nuck, you sure you weren't out at Zeke's Bunker when all this happened? I've heard some strange things about that place.

[Curtis Newkirk]

I attacked Zeke's place in an exercise back in 94'. It was manned by 4 STAR troops. STAR was supposed to mean Security Trained And Ready. What it meant was Sent To Absorb Rounds. Anyway, they'd been posted for about 24 hours, so they'd each finished about a case of MREs and should have been fast asleep. We crawled up on the bunker, and opened up a close range. We should have killed everyone, but a Supply Troop was out on a little nature walk with a cute little troop. We killed the two in the position, and got scared when we couldn't find the others. I figured they'd gotten hurt or lost. Well, after about 20 minutes of screaming their names, they stepped out of the brush, and shot the bunch of us. Little Johnny Supply had been playing slap and tickle with his little bunker buddy. She was a cutey. I didn't even ask for a story. We just told him "good Job", and regrouped and attacked the ECP. It was a nice little off-base field trip. Unfortunatly, we don't exercise out there any more.

No, this story doesn't need to be on this thread. I guess I could start a depravation thread of my own.

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Nuck
"Defensor Brewus"
Defender of the beer

[REMF]

Glad to see the QM Corps can do some things right. And they kept their weapons, too. What a bonus!

REMF
Actually overheard my first supervisor say this:
"You know you gotta sign for those staples, right?"

[Cree Warrior]

Sleep deprivation is sooo different on civy street. Ask any grad student and they'll tell you they're sleep deprived, I guess maybe if you look at long term lack of sleep, like 2 years with only 4 or 5 hours. But you can get a coffee anytime you like, have a catnap any time you like etc.
Theres been times in the military where I'd have paid hundreds of dollars for a good cup of coffee.
My best hallucination story is from Platoon Exevals 95', I think it was day 3, little or no sleep and we were doing a 12 mile movement. Well there was a big truck following me the whole time, just me mind you no one else and every time I turned around it was gone. It was lighting up my way for me through the night. Along with this truck was a blonde long legged backpacker chick that I guess had decided to go for a late night backpack through Ft. Lewis with a bunch of Rangers. Hmmm, thats wierd I thought...oh well. I must have watched her for about 2 hours, still have no idea what it really was.
I react badly to sleep deprivation however, and I've got a friend that said he was involved in a similar experiment with the Canadian military in the late 60's. This guy said he can do 15-20 minute power naps at the drop of a hat and that he lasted longer than anyone else in the experiment. Something like 65 days without real sleep.
I'd like to see write ups on those studies, but I think there is alot of individual variability.

Sua Sponte

[fish78]

During WWII the germans routinely issued amphetamines to troops that would be long in the field. I don't know of any similar US policy, but it has probably happened; without authorization.

[dragonrain]

Fish, I believe "uppers" were issued to some units during Vietnam. I cant remember the full name of them just that they were called "Dex". Dont know which units other then some LRRP teams.

Case
DR

[Aqaba]

"Going out at night the medics gave you pills, Dexedrine breath like dead snakes kept too long in a jar...I knew one 4th Division Lurp who took his pills by the fistful, downs from the left pocket of his tiger suit and ups from the right, one to cut the trail for him and the other to send him down it. He told me that they cooled things out just right for him, that he could see that old jungle at night like he was looking at it through a starlight scope. 'They sure give you the range,' he said." - Michael Herr, "Dispatches"

[colmurph]

Well if you've got the time to do it, get a job as a Steamship Agent. It's 24/7. When the ships come in you've got to be there even if it's O-Dark thirty. Do 7 ships in 3 days and you'll know what "sleep deprivation" is. I've been doing it ever since I retired in 93 and for the last 3 years I've been averaging about 4 1/2 hours sleep a night. My mind seems to be functioning fairly well though, since starting in this business I've gone from "Boarding Agent" to "Port Manager". The pay is better but I'm not getting any more sleep. 'Course my mind might be gone cause I think I'm doing ok, and nobody in their right mind would be doing this kind of work while they're collecting two pensions.LOL

[Ranger002]

For you Ranger History buffs both Batts were issued dexidrine tabs for Grenada...
William Hazen

[Greenhat]

4 1/2 hours a night? Hey, Col. Murph, what's the problem? Didn't they tell you in the Benning School for Boys that your body only needs 2 hours? http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

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[colmurph]

Yeah, I've heard that the body only needs 2 hours sleep a night, but how do I convince my body that it's true? LOL

[ElmoDiablo]

Doesn't compare to military sleep dep, but I did stay up 3.5 days once in college. learned an entire semester of spanish 2 in 12 hours. Thank God for copenhagen and coffee.

A prof told us once that docs used to get really pissed when the air force/navy prescribed amphetamines to pilots flying long sorties. Seems extended use can cause early onset of Parkinsons Disease (burns out the Substantia Nigra in the midbrain - ouch!)

[RifleMaster]

My Daughter that is currently in a local nursing program, keeps telling me that I should get at least 7 or 8 hours of sleep per day. Her Prof's claim it takes the body that lone to repair itself. They claim you will age faster if you don't get the proper amount of sleep! I've been thinking that I have been doing pretty good for most of 30 years on about 5 or 6 hours of sleep per day. Then, maybe that is why I'm starting to feel just a little old! http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

Take care!

Carl