Not good

[Silent_warrior]

Something very wrong with IDF officer training or just bad luck?

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1039666305470

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=240883&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

[Hoepoe]

I would have to say neither bad training, nor bad luck, bad command and bad decisions made without thinking caused this tragedy.

I am no expert, but from the training we've recieved, we always check the peripheral area first before moving into an obvious fire zone...

Hoepoe

[Sayar]

some high ranking officer decided to cover his ass by shifting blaim to lower ranking officers. unfortunatly thats something that happens once in a while

[gdvir of IDF]

I wholeheartedly agree with you Sayar, but what concerns me more is the results of the investigation.
Appearently, the only f*ckup was that the officers down the chain of command did not take charge and "charge" at the terrorists.

IMO, the main problem was exacly the opposite - the commanders charged bravely, but stupidly down an obvious kill zone (i know hindsight is 20/20 and at first they couldn't have known where the terrorists were) but even after several men died they kept running straight into the ambush.

Charging the enemy is not healthy and is not always the best way to win a battle...if the situation calls for it and you have to close the distance to the enemy as quickly as possible AND there's no other choice then do it, but in this situation, as soon as they stopped to think and flanked the terrorists they killed them with little effort.

So now the only lesson we'll learn, according to the investigation, is that they didn't charge hard enough.

kind of reminds me of the "El Arik" ambush where the sniper picked our boys off as they came out of cover to save their wounded friends - perhaps they could've waited for air support to locate and neutralize the threat.

However, I wasn't in either of these incidents, I'm just offering my opinions.

[Sayar]

just one tid bit of irony.......the reserve company CO that was punished, was the one who executed the flanking manuever and killed the terrorists.......how cowardly of him not to charge right in and get killed...:mad: some times i wonder if rise in rank makes you smaller in brains.....

[gdvir of IDF]

The old-timers say the army used to be smart and innovative.
They also say politicians used to be honest or at least had a sense of shame.
WTF happened to us?:mad:

[WS-G]

Originally posted by gdvir of IDF
WTF happened to us?:mad:
Secularism?

[Silent_warrior]

It seems that everything is getting to the Hebron area again. After the ambush in which 12 IDF soldiers, Magav and Kiryat Arba security guards were killed, than a few weeks later 2 IDF soldiers killed at the exactly same spot and now 4 yeshiva students killed (among them 2 IDF off-duty soldiers), it is really time to do something about it... Of course if those settlers would be smarter and let the security establishment to build a fence, instead of their refusal of fence, because of their ideology (since when does fence contradict the ideology?) :rolleyes:

Mine thoughts are exactly the same as your gdvir of IDF, "WTF happend?". Where are the times when IDF and Israeli security services went everywhere to find terrorists no matter where they hide and did all what was needed to be done and when it was known of it's daring operations (like Beirut, Tunis...). Now the leaders of terrorists organizations roam freely around Damascus and elsewhere and even have talks in Cairo. :rolleyes:
I guess all comes down to the politics, like always. :mad:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=246278&displayTypeCd=1&sideCd=1&contrassID=2

Read the 13 and 14 paragraph, it is interesting. We can only thank the IDF soldiers who prevented even a greater number of fatalities and all the complements to the tracker who found the second terrorists few kilometers away.

[gdvir of IDF]

If our guys were conducting covert CT ops in foreign countries, you wouldn't know about it.

My comment about unprofessionalism was directed more toward the "regular" army units (especially higher up the chain of command), and even more so towards the policy makers and their "cover my own ass" doctrine.

About the fence in Hebron / anywhere else - a fence means some kind of a border and messiahist zealots don't believe in those.


Mr. Salter:
"Yishmor oti ha'el mipnei ha'emuna";)

[Sayar]

i'll tell EXACTLY what happened!
1. we turned into a garrison army, where REMF's and ass-wipes get promoted.
2. every other high ranking officer, uses his rank to enter politics, doing that on the back of his men.
the lower ranks are getting better and better, and the friggin' generals still live 20 years ago..........:mad:

i'm only afraid we may be too late to improve things.....:(

[Silent_warrior]

Originally posted by gdvir of IDF
If our guys were conducting covert CT ops in foreign countries, you wouldn't know about it.

My comment about unprofessionalism was directed more toward the "regular" army units (especially higher up the chain of command), and even more so towards the policy makers and their "cover my own ass" doctrine.

About the fence in Hebron / anywhere else - a fence means some kind of a border and messiahist zealots don't believe in those.


Mr. Salter:
"Yishmor oti ha'el mipnei ha'emuna";)

I know that, if IDF were conducting covert CT operations outside the country, I wouldn't know about it. However I was refering to assassinations of leaders beyond the Gaza Strip and West Bank, like the Israeli security services did before. It pretty much bothers me that the leaders of terrorist organization walk freely around Damascus and other places and nobody does shit about it, since they issue the orders to other cells in Gaza Strip and West Bank.

Hmmm I thought that only the "Green line" fence contradicts their ideology, from understandable reasons, but I had no idea that the same applies to settlement fences...

[Silent_warrior]

WTF!

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1043295334759

[Illy]

gdvir and sayar....

an alpinist reservist once told me (and all you non-hebrew speaking please forgive me , It just doesn't translate good) :

"tsahal af paam lo haya ma she tsahal haya paam"

[Sayar]

i just dobt believe it. we are much better then 1982, but the senior commanders are from that generation and we are paying the price.

[WS-G]

Originally posted by Illy
"tsahal af paam lo haya ma she tsahal haya paam"
"The Army just ain't what it used to be" is about as close an idiom as any we commonly use in English. Still, it doesn't quite capture the same nuance.

[Hoepoe]

The IDF is OK, it's better than OK, it's a military force with more ops experience than most, more successes than most and yes, unfortunately, the road to success is usually paved a at least a few failurs and lessons.

I would suggest that all the brilliant writers to this post, that so sincerely critisize the IDF, 'put their' money where their mouths are' and join keva, rise to be a senior officer and then make changes. If not, rather be quiet as bitchin and moaning doesn't so any good.

If you have all the answers implement them or shut up.

Just a thought: If you are so knowledgable and capable, please indicate which of you actually served in combat poittions and which of you actually achieved officer, junior or senior rank in the IDF???

[Illy]

william , to come close to the real meaning would be : the army never was , what the army used to be ..."

I would suggest that all the brilliant writers to this post, that so sincerely critisize the IDF, 'put their' money where their mouths are' and join keva, rise to be a senior officer and then make changes. If not, rather be quiet as bitchin and moaning doesn't so any good.


please dear sir , don't come barging through an open door .
we (at least I ) all love the IDF and respect its crucial role in protecting our way of life in this little state. I think that anybody that served in the IDF through its various branches earned its right to critisize it. maybe the language was a bit hostile but I'm sure anyone who posted it truly believe it and is hoping for the IDF to correct many of its ways .
in fact that is the true strengh of the IDF ' that you don't need to be a Lt. colonel in order to make a diffrence . I'm sure that from a green nose private in the BAKUM through a reservist officer (like myself) we can all make a diffrence and our points should be heard.

[Hoepoe]

I agree that everyone should state their opinion, in fact a uniqueness (as you know) of the iDF is that everyone speaks out if they do not agree with something regardless of rank.

That was not my point, my point was that these people are comparing the modern IDF with an older IDF that they read about (maybe) but certainly never served in. They need to realize that CONSTRUCTIVE crititism is laways welcome, but ranting on about BS, come on man. People screw up, ok, learn from it, fix it, don't fuck up again. Thats all, but stop behaving like it happens everyday in every op.

Hoepoe

ps. your sarcasm was not welcome, have you ever been in a combat situation? Were your officers that bad? If so, did you complain...???

[Illy]

Hoepoe

if you heard sarcasm in my reply I apologise.....no ofence was intended ...!!!

now for your question about combat situation ...
in the enviorment israel is in now , it is safe for you to assume that every soldier in a combat outfit have seen action in some degree or the other . there just no way to escape it .
and by the way , even a soldier without any combat experiance should be heard seriously , there's nothing more productive than a fresh opinion . when we use to see things through our own experiances we sometime overlook important things that should be looke upon .

and I agree that every critisicm should be objective and to the point , but Gdvir ,Sayar and myself are just veterans (veterans ???) shooting the shit .... a god giving right to every soldier .

no harm intended !!!

[Hoepoe]

Hi

I was having a pissy day!! No offense taken.

You guys are the main posters on the Israel board and i for one, appreciate that.

What you say about non-combat soldiers having an opinion is correct, people often don't see the wood for the trees, but nonetheless, someone who has experienced combat us by default in a better position to have an opinion about combat situations.

Anyway, life is way too short to argue about BS, do you still do reserves? Are you still in Israel? I fear we'll all be on high konanut in the coming weeks. Be safe

Shalom

Hoepoe

[Joe56]

Hey All,

Llly, Ma zeh "haya paam"?

I think that the IDF had a Vietnam in Lebanon, not in terms of losses, but in terms of mentality. Some of the commanders were less than stellar and still got promoted, and are now realizing they have to perform, whereas the good ones, like Uzi Dayan, get screwed royally cause Mofaz and he don't get along.

be that as it may, the IDF is still a damn good army, and it will self correct as always.

[Illy]

:eek:

My nick is ILLy , not Llly .....like the espresso brand .....

anyway , the IDF got an excellent chief of staff , general yaalon is an excellent officer and I'm sure he will give the idf a good push in the right direction .

[Sayar]

im not as optimistic as you...
from what i've encountered from Yaalon, its gonna be the same as mofaz if not worse

[namor]

These are the same issues you hear in every army - "the old Corps" was better, smarter, had less BS, etc. Unless basic human behavior has changed in the last 30 years, I guarantee the privates of years gone by had the same complaints you're voicing now.