SF Doctors [Archive] - SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network

Billy L-bach

7 October 2001, 05:00

Originally posted by para325air:
SF Chaplains: I was on burial detail in '92 at Bragg. Out comes this chaplain, Major, double tabbed, ribbons so far up they are about to go down his back, foreign jump wings, and the whole gambit of everything else. The only thing he was missing was a name like Audie Murphy. What a Hooah chaplain. To this day I am still impressed.

Its sounds to me like Chaplain (major) Dennington... He used to be in 7th group around the 87-89 time frame.... He is a great guy. If its the same guy he made LTC not long after that... My wife loves him, we were at a group organization day back behind the GB club and my ole lady was bummed out - he asked her what was wrong, she told him her puppy had distemper and was probably going to die... He said a quick little prayer with her for the dog, winked at me, slapped me on the shoulder and told us to have a good time. Believe it or not the dog pulled through..... didnt get very big, but learned how to play frisbee soon after he recovered...... Gotta be the same guy, couldnt have been to many guys that fit your description floating around post at the time.

[This message has been edited by Billy L-bach (edited 10-07-2001).]

Ted

7 October 2001, 22:42

Mr. Ward, be aware that you are chosing absolutely the longest route to SF. As per advice, just look up the requirements for college, then about 4 years later - look up the requirements to get into medical school. There is no need to try to adapt your high school curriculum in an attempt to gain an edge that might help you out later. Not counting high school, you have at least 13-15 years before you will be in the military ( 4 yrs college, 4 yrs med school 5-7 yrs residency).

The route that you are contemplating is very long and has a high rate of attrition, about 2/3's of people that apply to medical school don't get in. Fewer still go into the military and fewer yet go into military special operations. This plan of yours is admirable, but I think that it is best put on the back burner, to be revisited during your junior/senior years of college.

Short range advice - get good grades in high school so as to get a scholarship for college. Enjoy your high school years!

EH162

26 September 2003, 21:20

Originally posted by Billy L-bach
Its sounds to me like Chaplain (major) Dennington... He used to be in 7th group around the 87-89 time frame.... He is a great guy. If its the same guy he made LTC not long after that... My wife loves him, we were at a group organization day back behind the GB club and my ole lady was bummed out - he asked her what was wrong, she told him her puppy had distemper and was probably going to die... He said a quick little prayer with her for the dog, winked at me, slapped me on the shoulder and told us to have a good time. Believe it or not the dog pulled through..... didnt get very big, but learned how to play frisbee soon after he recovered...... Gotta be the same guy, couldnt have been to many guys that fit your description floating around post at the time.

[This message has been edited by Billy L-bach (edited 10-07-2001).]

Last time I heard, CH (COL) Dennington, Neil A., was/may have been the XVIII Airborne Corps and Installation Chaplain.

I served with him from 1994-1995 when he was the Chaplain for the 35th Signal BDE.

A Great Man..., Great, Great Man. None more finer. Hoooah!

E

ussfpa

26 September 2003, 22:08

Originally posted by adhoc
Yes but no. As an Army Doc, AMEDD don't take too kindly to giving you extracirricular activity like the Q Course. So you would be required to apply for SFAS at then end of a service contract. But if you happened to already work for the right people...And then there are a few 18D's in the Guard who have chosen to remain as such-post med school.
Your info is not entirely correct...it has nothing to do with the end of their service contract...I have had 1 and known 1 who were BN Docs, felt like weiner cheese for being in GP and not being tabbed, they applied, went to SFAS then the 18A course, and went back to being BN Docs with the appropriate colored headgear and experience.

Primum non Nocere

Special Forces

26 September 2003, 22:12

Dennington, Neil A., COL, served as the 7th SFGA Chaplain, the 35th Sig Bde Chaplain, the USARSO Chaplain, and the Ft Jackson Chaplain, departing that assignment in early 2002. I do not know where he went from there. If anyone locates him, please PM me.

He married my wife and I, and if you look very closely in the back of the classroom at Camp Mackall at the typed lists of SF valor awards from Vietnam, you will find that a very young 1LT of the same name won a Silver Star running recon in Vietnam (at the time of the award, I believe a SSG).

Not too many Chaplains with a CIB, Silver Star, SF and Ranger Tabs, Master Parachutist Badge, and an SF Combat patch.

Best man of the cloth and one of the finest men in general I ever met.

Hooah!

TR

ktek01

26 September 2003, 22:21

TR, PM inbound.

ussfpa

26 September 2003, 22:29

Originally posted by The Reaper
Dennington, Neil A., COL, served as the 7th SFGA Chaplain, the 35th Sig Bde Chaplain, the USARSO Chaplain, and the Ft Jackson Chaplain, departing that assignment in early 2002. I do not know where he went from there. If anyone locates him, please PM me.

He married my wife and I, and if you look very closely in the back of the classroom at Camp Mackall at the typed lists of SF valor awards from Vietnam, you will find that a very young 1LT of the same name won a Silver Star running recon in Vietnam (at the time of the award, I believe a SSG).

Not too many Chaplains with a CIB, Silver Star, SF and Ranger Tabs, Master Parachutist Badge, and an SF Combat patch.

Best man of the cloth and one of the finest men in general I ever met.

Hooah!

TR
I will second that HOOAH. Sounds like the right man outta the right kinda cloth to have on your side. That's for sure!

Primum non Nocere

EH162

26 September 2003, 23:17

Originally posted by The Reaper
Dennington, Neil A., COL, served as the 7th SFGA Chaplain, the 35th Sig Bde Chaplain, the USARSO Chaplain, and the Ft Jackson Chaplain, departing that assignment in early 2002. I do not know where he went from there. If anyone locates him, please PM me.

He married my wife and I, and if you look very closely in the back of the classroom at Camp Mackall at the typed lists of SF valor awards from Vietnam, you will find that a very young 1LT of the same name won a Silver Star running recon in Vietnam (at the time of the award, I believe a SSG).

Not too many Chaplains with a CIB, Silver Star, SF and Ranger Tabs, Master Parachutist Badge, and an SF Combat patch.

Best man of the cloth and one of the finest men in general I ever met.

Hooah!

TR

Thanks for the update. I must have gotten my wires crossed somewhere along my journey.

He wrote my mother a letter one time, and told her that I was a fine young soldier. I hope I didn't let him down.

He would always say, "hooah young trooper!"

E

Special Forces

26 September 2003, 23:55

Originally posted by EH162
Thanks for the update. I must have gotten my wires crossed somewhere along my journey.

He wrote my mother a letter one time, and told her that I was a fine young soldier. I hope I didn't let him down.

He would always say, "hooah young trooper!"

E

That is nothing, he made my wife say "Hooah" instead of "I do" during the vows, and coin checked me during the ceremony.

Of course, that was after the rehearsal, where he threatened dire consequences to anyone late to the ceremony, or in the wrong uniform.

And earlier in the ceremony itself, where the congregation failed to sound off when he said, Good Afternoon", so he offered to conduct a funeral for anyone who did not sound off on the redo. He did get a loud and thunderous "Good Afternoon, Chaplain!!" when they tried again.

My in-laws were a bit taken aback, but hey, welcome to SF!

And there was the time....

Never mind, we could go on with Chaplain Dennington stories all night.

Great American, proud to call him a friend.

TR

cannibal75

27 September 2003, 02:43

Originally posted by Ted
Mr. Ward, be aware that you are chosing absolutely the longest route to SF. As per advice, just look up the requirements for college, then about 4 years later - look up the requirements to get into medical school. There is no need to try to adapt your high school curriculum in an attempt to gain an edge that might help you out later. Not counting high school, you have at least 13-15 years before you will be in the military ( 4 yrs college, 4 yrs med school 5-7 yrs residency).

Oh boy...

Roy,
Let me clear up a bunch of misleading information before you think you have tons of time.

It's never too soon to get a jump on your education. When you get to college, you need to get right on the pre-med requirements. You'll need calculus, physics, general chemistry and organic chemistry to apply to a medical school. I won't get into studying for the MCATs here.

Anticipating this, you can (and should) stress math and science courses in HS, preferably taking some APs if they are offered. Any internships or jobs you can get in medical offices or in laboratories will help too. Good med schools are some of the most competitive institutions on Earth. I know a Phi Beta Kappa with a 3.97 GPA and in the 99% on the MCAT who got rejected from 4 of 6 med schools applied to.

You are still a ways away from you end goal (SF doctor), but now is the time to start gunning for an Army ROTC scholarship or appointment to West Point since both application processes begin early in your junior year. Trust me, you don't want to be a kicking yourself in the butt at 27 wishing you had your sh*t together at 17. Trust me.

I could go on and on but I'll quit now before I start rambling. I'm not qualified to tell you anything about SF, but I am BTDT for applying to West Point, ROTC and even Army OCS (did all of 'em) and know a few things about college prep.

Best of luck to you. PM me if you have any specifc questions.

s/f
cannibal75
sends

IMUA

27 September 2003, 06:29

Hadn't thought about that guy in ages until I came across this thread...we're talking about an outstanding American here folks!
Knew him personally from my 87-89 7th Group days. Besides all the other attributes already listed...he had THE hardest handshake I've ever known...almost drain the color out of a man's hand in greeting!
Damn fine soldier, chaplin, and gentleman...always there at the right time. I do remember him "scolding me a couple of times..."Now, Doc....!"
Good to hear his name again!

IMUA out!

dueterium

27 September 2003, 10:42

Our current Doc is in the Q. He came to the BN and immediately volunteered for the "Q". He's cut from the cloth of most of the Docs that come to group. Take care of him guys, we need him back in one piece. 3-10 SFG(A)

RoyWard

27 September 2003, 14:29

Wow, I thought that this thread was dead and gone. I was surprised to see it this far up since I posted on it about 2 years ago.

Here's a little update on what I am doing.

I am currently at a junior college on a full-ride academic scholarship and pitching for the varsity baseball team. I am a pre-med and still pursuing this course. I have about 2 more years of college left before I can pursue medical school, but I will probably be going the DO route and my state will basically pay for med-school if I enter family practice so that is probably what I will do.

Still planning on me one crazy SF DOC.

P.S. That Chaplin is about the coolest person I have ever heard of.

krader

27 September 2003, 18:02

Sinister Dave Said:
We had docs and vets in my SF Officer Q class back in 1984, and we have also had a few chaplains.

Now I have a question if I may. Not in anyway am I a been there done that. Been on this site forever, EMT for small hospital work in ER and on Ambulance. Pastors son. Former Missionary. Back again as college student. The SF Doctors title is what got me reading here. The Chaplain comments have caught my attention. I know one Army Chaplain and have read up on them on the Army website. From what I understand these guys at least according to the Army website are not formally trained with weapons and are unarmed. I saw an interveiw once with a guy who was former SF then became a Chaplain, I'm not sure if it was Dennington or not, so i can see how that would cause there to be an SF tabbed chaplain. But how was it a Chaplain unarmed was able to goto the Q course? Where they X trained in some way by the SF guys they worked with so they carried? I can't imagine they would have gone and team leading captains?? Did they go all the way through as chaplains and do worship services for and mininster to the guys in Robin Sage etc? I think I have read on here that things worked a bit differently back in 1980's then today. Does it happen that Chaplains go today? I guess I am just looking for some clarification on the chaplain role going through the Q course. Thanks much for your time, good luck Roy Ward its been years since I had HS chem and now I find myself taking it college after changing my major, it's a bummer. I can only think of the classes you have ahead of you. Good Luck man.

Krader

ussfpa

27 September 2003, 18:35

and so can their jobs. Though I do not know THIS chaplian personally, I did know of others who were PRIOR hard charging infantrymen, received CIB's (combat infantryman badge), and were duely decorated for bringing death and dismemberment to the enemies of our great nation...THEN they went to seminary.
At 10th MTN we had ONE MORE HOOAH CHAPLIAN...he was super squared away. Since he was always with my Battailion Aid Station, he asked if I would help him with firing a weapon "just in case". After a little work, he was all over it and did incredibly well. Qual'd expert every time, Barretta and M4. He was well identified with by all the men in the BN and became an immesurable asssett because he did the "when in rome" bit.
The guy that replaced him was just the opposite, refused to touch a weapon, RODE behind every march so he would not be confused with being "Tactical", tried to give our BC advice during combat operations on the "spritual ramifications" of combat tactics and what would happen to his soul if any bad guys were brutally killed.
He wasn't liked very much...by ANYBODY. Could you imagine, an entire BN hating their chaplian??? I have witnessed it.
OK...the point...
There are some chaplains who "embrace the suck" to better help their flock. Snuffy can go snivvle to the chaplain about the mean old tacs at RANGER school and Chaplain Hesus can identify because he has been there too. THOSE are the best Chaplains around.

If this makes no sense...it's because I am on good drugs. But, hopefully you got a little something out of it :D

Primum non Nocere

ussfpa

27 September 2003, 18:35

Sneaky SF Dude

27 September 2003, 19:00

There was a Dentac Major on my Team during Robin Sage. I picked him up off the DZ on infil. After that, he lay in a hammock for two days before they finally took him in. He didn't make it. Colonel Rowe was the CO.

Sharky

27 September 2003, 20:07

Originally posted by ussfpa
Though I do not know THIS chaplian personally, I did know of others who were PRIOR hard charging infantrymen, received CIB's (combat infantryman badge), and were duely decorated for bringing death and dismemberment to the enemies of our great nation...THEN they went to seminary.

Speaking of cool Padres........Krader, do a search in the Ranger forum about Jeff Struecker. Not SF, but a former Battboy. You might remember his name from the book "BlackHawk Down" if you've read it.

i8547

27 September 2003, 20:28

Originally posted by cannibal75
Oh boy...

Roy,
Let me clear up a bunch of erroneous information before you think you have tons of time.

So Ted's info is erroneous? That's a bit odd, the destination that Roy wants to get to is the destination that Ted is very intimate with ....

http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=3705

18C/GS 0602

28 September 2003, 09:53

SF Doctors

First off let me preface this by saying that I am not SF or even in the Army, but I have looked into this career path because one day I hope to pursue it. The information is hard to come by but I had the pleasure of talking with USASOC command surgeron and several SF battalion surgeons. From what these people have told me, it is possible as a doctor to go through the Q course. To do that you have to apply to USASOC to come on board as a physician and then get orders to an SF battalion. Currently there is one physician that I talked with that has orders to SFAS. Don't know if he has made it there or not. Supposedly he is the first in many years to be allowed by AMED to try. No one knows how long this will continue. Typically they want Family Practice or Emergency Medicine trained physician, but they will take any specialty. They look for physicians that are Airborne qualified, have language training, good swimming skills, and it helps if they have attended either the flight surgeons or the diving medical officer courses. As for Ranger school I belive that every physician with the different regiments have the opportunity to go to Ranger school. Due to its shorter course length I get the impression it is easier to get orders to. Hopefully this helps. I had a hard time finding this all out.

cannibal75

28 September 2003, 14:23

Originally posted by Jeff Rambo
So Ted's info is erroneous? That's a bit odd, the destination that Roy wants to get to is the destination that Ted is very intimate with ....

http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=3705

Jeff,
Didn't realize it was the same Ted (since he posted on this thread as a guest).

Perhaps erroneous might be too strong... misleading might be a better choice. I just didn't want the kid to wait too long and kick himself in the butt for not doing his pre-med requirements until junior year. Sucks to do in 5 years what you could have done in 4.

Roy,
Keep up the good work and study hard.

s/f
cannibal75
sends

ussfpa

28 September 2003, 14:58

Originally posted by bdonham
SF Doctors

First off let me preface this by saying that I am not SF or even in the Army, but I have looked into this career path because one day I hope to pursue it. The information is hard to come by but I had the pleasure of talking with USASOC command surgeron and several SF battalion surgeons. From what these people have told me, it is possible as a doctor to go through the Q course. To do that you have to apply to USASOC to come on board as a physician and then get orders to an SF battalion. Currently there is one physician that I talked with that has orders to SFAS. Don't know if he has made it there or not. Supposedly he is the first in many years to be allowed by AMED to try. No one knows how long this will continue. Typically they want Family Practice or Emergency Medicine trained physician, but they will take any specialty. They look for physicians that are Airborne qualified, have language training, good swimming skills, and it helps if they have attended either the flight surgeons or the diving medical officer courses. As for Ranger school I belive that every physician with the different regiments have the opportunity to go to Ranger school. Due to its shorter course length I get the impression it is easier to get orders to. Hopefully this helps. I had a hard time finding this all out.
bdonhamDude...
By saying you talked with the USASOC command SGN I will assume that you were talking to Rocky Farr. The only real fact you mentioned was that it was possible for a doctor to go to the Q course, which has already been established by multiple people here.
Other than that, much of your post is very misleading. Physicians and PA's who are assigned to SFG (A)'s are sent to the flight SGN's course enroute if they have not been. The Hyperbaric medicine (short) course is also usually availed with the 9 week DMO course as an option as long as there is at least 1 qual'ed DMO in the group. BAsic Airborne is a requirement, but can be volunteered for enroute on the losing commands dime.
Swimming skills are not going to be listed in their military personnel files and will not be a discriminator. Though language skills would be helpful to the operational guys, they would serve little purpose for the physician which is why they do not attend SFLIC or DLI prior to GP assignments. They are not their to do the indig thing, the 18D's are.
As far as your Ranger school information, you need to take a good look at your info before you post it...
There is only 1 Ranger Regiment, with mulitiple Ranger BNs. Ranger school is NOT a "shorter course which would make it easier to obtain orders", but would be a requirement for members of the BN to perform the units mission. It is preferable ALL members of the BN to have had the benefit and experience of this Leaders Course. Not to mention that a health care provider who has experienced what the bubbas have gone through will have a much better understanding of their conditions, mechanisms of injury and stress patterns of wear. Most Ranger BN's have sports medicine physiologists and physical therapists assigned in order to quickly rehabilitate these individuals, who we now treat and consider as professional atheletes.
I have little doubt that COL Farr mentioned many of the things you tried to relay, but it would appear that you have misunderstood MOST of what he said. As a 4th yr med student in the USMC Reserves (per your profile) you would not be able to go to SFAS or the Q course (not now being a Marine or after you graduate as a physician), so, again, your "hoping to pursue this carreer path" is a pipe dream unless you are changing services to join the Army.
You ended your post with "hope this helps"...expanding on already answered questions with facts and references helps a great deal. Try to keep that in mind as it keeps confusion to a minimum.

Primum non Nocere

longrange1947

28 September 2003, 17:10

The Chaplain that I know personnally that was prior was an SF Eng back in the 50s and 60s. He was an SF padre for many years in 1st and 10th Group. Thsoe Groups I personnaly know of as he would find us in the woods and walk with the team for a couple of days and wonder off for the next team.

His name was Stipanzie, but my spelling sucks so that is phonetic. He was one heck of a padre and was a better team leader then most tream leaders were.

What he did to get to where he was I have not the slightest. Only told this as a war story since there was questions about the fighting padres.

18C/GS 0602

30 September 2003, 03:16

ussfpa-

After reading your last post I realize that I was not clear on some of the information I was trying to convey, and with regards to the Ranger comments I realize I was incorrect. Let my try to clarify.

1. Physicians have in the past been able to go through the Q course, but over the last 20 years they have not due to various reasons. Recently that has changed and they are now allowing it.

2. It always confused me as to how an Army physician would get assigned to Special Operations units. Talking with Col. Farr he informed me that to be assigned to a SF, Ranger, SMU you must first apply to USASOC. In order to even be considered you must be residency trained (no GMO's). From what he told me the USASOC application was a competitive process and because of that he looked at several factors when deciding whom to select; Airborn training, Flight Surgeon/DMO training, swimming and FL. The Airborn/FS/DMO qualifications were not requirments but things that made an applicant more competitive. Having these qualifications would save him time and money by avoiding having to send the applicant to some of these schools prior to being assigned to a unit. As for the swimming and FL, I don't know how he evaluates these, but he told me that they were qualities he looked for in a competitive applicant for a USASOC position.

3. As you noted in my profile, I am a UMSC reservist. My commitment to the Marine Corps will be ending soon and at that point, I should be able to join the Army if I choose to.

I am sorry if my original post was misleading. Is this information correct?

ussfpa

30 September 2003, 04:24

and much clearer on what you are trying to convey.
I will say though that with your first statement on physician being recently allowed to attend raises an eyebrow...as I had posted previously, our BN SGN went through the 18A course while I was in 7th during '92.
The rest of your post however was much better stated. Well done.

Primum non Nocere

EH162

30 September 2003, 07:51

Originally posted by IMUA
Hadn't thought about that guy in ages until I came across this thread...we're talking about an outstanding American here folks!
Knew him personally from my 87-89 7th Group days. Besides all the other attributes already listed...he had THE hardest handshake I've ever known...almost drain the color out of a man's hand in greeting!
Damn fine soldier, chaplin, and gentleman...always there at the right time. I do remember him "scolding me a couple of times..."Now, Doc....!"
Good to hear his name again!

IMUA out!

I forgot all about the handshake. He would smile and just not let go.

E

Sneaky SF Dude

30 September 2003, 18:56

bdonham,
I knew Col. Farr when he was a Major. Good man, one of the best.

Doctor_Doom

30 September 2003, 20:03

Originally posted by cannibal75

Also, last time I checked, med school was 3 years, not 4 (unless you count interning). Residencies vary by field, but if you go to the Army (or any other service for that matter), you begin service with your residency and perhaps as early as med school enrollment (well, the Navy does it that way at least).

You are still a ways away from you end goal (SF doctor), but now is the time to start gunning for an Army ROTC scholarship or appointment to West Point since both application processes begin early in your junior year. Trust me, you don't want to be a kicking yourself in the butt at 27 wishing you had your sh*t together at 17. Trust me.
s/f
cannibal75
sends

A minor point... not to tread on your toes cannibal...

Roy, med school is actually 4 years, and internship counts as first year of residency, not med school.

Trauma surgery is currently 5 years of general surgery plus at least two years of fellowship. Add on a couple of years of research, and that's a good 9 years beginning at age 21. You'll need a really good focused plan, and dedication.

cannibal is right on all other counts. You are pursuing a dream I once had, until I faced up to myself. Plus I'm just old and tired. I can try to help you with the prepping for med school part at least. PM if you wish.

bdtheman

1 October 2003, 01:13

Originally posted by cannibal75
Oh boy...

Roy,
Let me clear up a bunch of misleading information before you think you have tons of time.

It's never too soon to get a jump on your education. When you get to college, you need to get right on the pre-med requirements. You'll need a full year of calculus, physics and organic chemistry to apply to a medical school. I won't get into studying for the MCATs here.

Anticipating this, you can (and should) stress math and science courses in HS, preferably taking some APs if they are offered. Any internships or jobs you can get in medical offices or in laboratories will help too. Good med schools are some of the most competitive institutions on Earth. I know a Phi Beta Kappa with a 3.97 GPA and in the 99% on the MCAT who got rejected from 4 of 6 med schools applied to.

Also, last time I checked, med school was 3 years, not 4 (unless you count interning). Residencies vary by field, but if you go to the Army (or any other service for that matter), you begin service with your residency and perhaps as early as med school enrollment (well, the Navy does it that way at least).

You are still a ways away from you end goal (SF doctor), but now is the time to start gunning for an Army ROTC scholarship or appointment to West Point since both application processes begin early in your junior year. Trust me, you don't want to be a kicking yourself in the butt at 27 wishing you had your sh*t together at 17. Trust me.

I could go on and on but I'll quit now before I start rambling. I'm not qualified to tell you anything about SF, but I am BTDT for applying to West Point, ROTC and even Army OCS (did all of 'em) and know a few things about college prep.

Best of luck to you. PM me if you have any specifc questions.

s/f
cannibal75
sends

I don't know if I'm beating a dead horse... I'm applying to med school now. Just to clarify, the requirements for most med schools are 1 year of english, 1 year general chem, 1 year organic chem, 1 year of physics, and it differs for schools whether you need 1 year or just a half a year of calculus. But if you have a particular school in interest check out their requirements early in your college career to make sure you fulfill them.

-brandon

18C/GS 0602

1 October 2003, 10:51

Originally posted by ussfpa

I will say though that with your first statement on physician being recently allowed to attend raises an eyebrow...as I had posted previously, our BN SGN went through the 18A course while I was in 7th during '92.

I guess the information I had wasn't totally correct. Good to know though.

Sneaky SF Dude-

Col. Farr seemed like a great guy when I talked with him. He went out of his way to talk with me and gave me a lot of good advice. I think it would be a privilege to work for a guy like that.

ussfpa

1 October 2003, 12:34

I met Rocky for the first time in 89...sounds like he hasn't changed much between then and now. He was always willing to sit down with us as medics and never failed to ask what WE thought, what OUR experiences were, and what we thought he could do do make us better medics.
Absolutely a tremendous individual who was concerned about little more than helping us save lives with as much latitude as freedom as possible.

Primum non Nocere

Sneaky SF Dude

1 October 2003, 13:55

I met him in '85 or '86. His favorite stoy was about how he jumped into John Wayne's A Camp. LOL.

His autopsy classes at Ft. Sam were awesome. He used to come to the SOCAS barracks on Saturdays and hang out with the Med Studs. There was an O5 orthopod that was there then too, former Green Hat Doc from Vietnam. Great guys that really enjoyed their work and would do anything for the studs. Rocky was the one that came up with the line "Don't look for zebras in a horse corral in Montana."

Roguish Lawyer

1 October 2003, 14:08

Originally posted by bdtheman
I don't know if I'm beating a dead horse... I'm applying to med school now. Just to clarify, the requirements for most med schools are 1 year of english, 1 year general chem, 1 year organic chem, 1 year of physics, and it differs for schools whether you need 1 year or just a half a year of calculus. But if you have a particular school in interest check out their requirements early in your college career to make sure you fulfill them.

-brandon

From what I understand, med school applicants who think in terms of prerequisite courses are going to be disappointed. I know plenty of guys who were 4.0 at good schools who barely got in to a D.O. program. If you want to be a doctor these days, you need to push yourself and excel in everything -- thinking in terms of minimums is a grave error.

Any docs want to correct me on that one?

Doctor_Doom

1 October 2003, 14:36

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
From what I understand, med school applicants who think in terms of prerequisite courses are going to be disappointed. I know plenty of guys who were 4.0 at good schools who barely got in to a D.O. program. If you want to be a doctor these days, you need to push yourself and excel in everything -- thinking in terms of minimums is a grave error.

Any docs want to correct me on that one?

That's a spot on observation RL. I don't really know what it's like now, but when I applied to medical school you definitely had to not only excel in the required courses, but also demonstrate true scientific ability, have some research background preferably, and have something that distinguished you from the other applicants. Interviewing well was also key. Guys who were 4.0 p-chem majors, were varsity captains, did research and were better looking than I ever was had to wait years before they got in. So thinking of just meeting minimums is a grave mistake.

I probably got into med school on blind dumb luck though, so my perspective is a bit skewed.

But once you get in to med school you can slack like rope made of taffy on a hot day. :)

Guy

3 October 2003, 01:51

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
-- thinking in terms of minimums is a grave error.

Just last night I was speaking with a young PFC about attending SF training. The comment he made which caught my attention was...

"I only need to score an 180 on the PT test, to get into SFAS"

I replied..."Son, SF may not be the field for you, nor any other field in SPECOPS. If you believe that the minimum is all you need to achieve, in order to successfully make it thru training...you are in for a rude awakening"!

Take care.

bdtheman

3 October 2003, 03:10

I'm glad my post brought about the topic of fulfilling only minimums being of little importance in accomplishing one's goal, but I was just trying to give information to someone (a young college student mostly) who was planning undergrad, about the bare courses he/she NEEDED to take to even BE considered at the majority of medical schools in the US. I hope I did not make it seem like that if you took 5 specific classes you'd be a shoe in for med school, b/c it is not true. There are about two times as many applicants as there are openings in medical school.

-brandon

mckbln

5 October 2003, 12:45

I can answer that question. I was the 1st Sgt of Aco, 1st Bn 1st Spwar Tng Bde from 97-99, prior to going to the Sergeants Major Academy. Unless things have changed, here is the deal. ANY qualified Cpt (0-3), from ANY branch may apply for the SF branch. You have to successfully complete SFAS, SFQC, and then attend language training, prior to assignment with an SFODA. SF recruiters know all the prerequisites so they would be up on all the current info. So, YES you can. I have seen 18Ds go on to be PAs and Doctors in the Army. I have seen Doctors as Cpts go to SFQC and become Det Cdrs. Having said that though, IF you go the surgeon route, it will be VERY difficult. Why? The Army tends to really hold on to it's qualified surgeons as just that. Secondly, being a doctor, particularly a surgeon will do little to prepare you for SFAS and SFQC. The failure rate is very high for non-combat arms branches. I saw a few Intelligence, and even a Quartermaster branch Cptains make it through, but they were the exceptions. If you really desire to be a surgeon, be a great one, and come to special operations as that; you will still be deployable, and if you are the cream of the crop, you may even get into a SMU. Believe me, us operators realize that good army docs are GOLD. I knew a few, like Doc Marsh and Doc Alitz, who were outstanding. Regardless of the route you take......Good Luck!!!!

Special Forces

5 October 2003, 13:02

SGM:

Your reply is pretty accurate, but things changed since you left SWCS, as they have off and on since 1984 when I went to the SFQC.

For a period in the '00-'03 time frame, certain branches either denied their officers the opportunity to go SF, or SF refused to allow personnel to attend the SFQC who would not rebranch SF upon graduation.

The policy changed back a few months ago.

The best bet for officers attempting to attend the SFQC is the SF recruiters, or by calling SF Branch to speak to the Accessions Officer.

Guy:

Your young friend is wrong about the minimums for SFAS attendance, which he could have found for himself had he read the recruiting pamphlets or gone to the goarmy website.

Every class, large numbers of soldiers fail to meet the standards for the APFT described in the above references.

The SFAS success rate for soldiers scoring in the 180-220 point range (17-21 year old scale) on the SFAS administered APFT is exactly zero. I would not want to attend if I couldn't knock out a solid 280 or better with an honest grader. In my observation, guys who have not prepared themselves well enough to make a decent APFT score a priority are going to be leaving SFAS early and without a certificate.

Hope this helps.

TR

Guy

5 October 2003, 16:44

Originally posted by The Reaper
The SFAS success rate for soldiers scoring in the 180-220 point range (17-21 year old scale) on the SFAS administered APFT is exactly zero

I had to enlarge this, so that he wouldn't miss it.

Take care.

ktek01

5 October 2003, 18:18

Originally posted by Guy
I had to enlarge this, so that he wouldn't miss it.

Take care.

Wait a minute, you mean to tell me that if I just barely pass the PT Test I dont stand a chance at getting through selection.:eek:

:D

RoyWard

9 October 2003, 17:32

I had to enlarge this, so that he wouldn't miss it.

Was that for me?

Anyways at this moment, depending on course load, ec's,and personality a 3.5 will get most people into an osteopathic school somewhere in the country.

Many people are accepted to DO school with just a 3.2.

Thanks for you guys great replies.

Doc T

9 October 2003, 22:20

Originally posted by RoyWard
Was that for me?

Anyways at this moment, depending on course load, ec's,and personality a 3.5 will get most people into an osteopathic school somewhere in the country.

Many people are accepted to DO school with just a 3.2.

Thanks for you guys great replies.

graduating with a DO doesn't always equate to graduating with an MD... Keep that in mind if you think you want to practice in a competitive field....

doc t.

krader

10 October 2003, 01:02

Doc T ,

I first off want to apolgize for my ignorance in this situation, but I have seen DO's work in Family Practice, ER's OB/GYN. I guess in my limited knowledge I was under the impression thay DO's were the same just with training similar to a Chiropractor also. Can you clarify more on what you meant? Are there things like surgery that it is harder to get residancies in etc??? Whats the difference and why??

Krader

Special Forces

10 October 2003, 10:01

I have three buddies practicing who are D.O.s, two COLs and a MAJ, and probably 20 who are M.D.s, also in the MAJ - COL ranks.

I have seen the D.O.s practicing as krader mentioned, as staff guys, and as commanders. Having said that, I think Doc T was referring to their ability to branch into some of the specialties.

Just my .02, not a physician, but I do play one at my house, from time to time.

TR

Doctor_Doom

10 October 2003, 10:47

DO's do learn the full medical school curriculum, in addition to manipulation techniques as part of the osteopath school of health thought, but they are often looked down upon by the MD establishment, and they do find it more difficult to get into the competitive specialties, such as surgery. That's changing a bit. In the general medicine specialties though they tend to have better access to the more selective training programs.

I defer to Doc T to provide a more authoritative response.

Doc T

10 October 2003, 11:16

Originally posted by krader
Doc T ,

I first off want to apolgize for my ignorance in this situation, but I have seen DO's work in Family Practice, ER's OB/GYN. I guess in my limited knowledge I was under the impression thay DO's were the same just with training similar to a Chiropractor also. Can you clarify more on what you meant? Are there things like surgery that it is harder to get residancies in etc??? Whats the difference and why??

Krader

not a dumb question....

imagine having 150 applications in front of you for 4 spots into a surgical residency. You have to decide who to interview and who not to interview. The elimination process has multiple phases...at my old institution we looked at test scores, research, did we know someone who knew someone, etc... and tried to weed the pile down to about 70 to interview....often being a DO instead of an MD was enough to weed you out of the pile before we even met you.

Family practice and OB are not competitive specialties... the surgical specialties, ophthamology, dermatology are much more difficult to match into and simply being a DO instead of an MD will limit your chances of residency in my opinion. Why are these competitive.... in some cases the specialty offers a better life style, some cases more money, lots of different reasons including fewer spots that other specialities.

Doc

10 October 2003, 12:04

Originally posted by The Reaper
Just my .02, not a physician, but I do play one at my house, from time to time.

TR

When that happens I usually get a call for some unknown reason.

:D

RoyWard

10 October 2003, 13:03

Actually it may be easier to get into a residency as a DO. DO residencies usually have few applicants than MD residencies, also DO residencies are not open to MD's. But MD residencies are open to DO's.

There are DO practicing in every field from Family Practice to Interventional Neuro-radiology.

Special Forces

10 October 2003, 13:30

Originally posted by Doc
When that happens I usually get a call for some unknown reason.

:D

Naaah, only on the serious cases.;)

Was that your first digipic diagnosis?

With my SF Medical Handbook, I may not be the best Doctor in the world, but I reckon I am the best one practicing without a license or med MOS.

Thanks again Doc.

TR

Doc

10 October 2003, 14:08

Originally posted by The Reaper
I may not be the best Doctor in the world, but I reckon I am the best one practicing without a license or med MOS.

Thanks again Doc.

TR

I know where that line came from. ;)

Anytime TR.

You've got the numbers.

Good talking to you last night.

Special Forces

10 October 2003, 14:31

Good speaking with you too, Doc.

You da' man!

TR

RoyWard

10 October 2003, 15:53

I may not be the best Doctor in the world, but I reckon I am the best one practicing without a license or med MOS.

Best movie John Wayne was ever in.

Doctor_Doom

12 October 2003, 21:52

RoyWard

13 October 2003, 19:12

Easier, yes, but not better...

Not worse either. They are equal.

Like a DDS and a DMD; same shit different letters.(But you know this as well as I do)

Thanks for your help doc.

Doctor_Doom

13 October 2003, 19:21

In terms of eduation and the quality of people? Definitely. In terms of residencies? I don't know. Less prestige for DO programs though could make choice of fellowship more difficult.

The different letters often mean that the choices available to the person holding the degree can be significantly different, despite individual competence.

Choose wisely.

Roy, are you 19?

Doc T

13 October 2003, 22:59

Originally posted by RoyWard
Actually it may be easier to get into a residency as a DO. DO residencies usually have few applicants than MD residencies, also DO residencies are not open to MD's. But MD residencies are open to DO's.

There are DO practicing in every field from Family Practice to Interventional Neuro-radiology.

are there DO residencies outside of primary care specialties? I have not researched the topic but would imagine not.

and its not a question of if its allowed for a DO to match into a competitive residency...its just more difficult (and I am not really sure that either of your examples would be competitive, certainly not family practice). Stop arguing since you really are too young to know the answer and I am intimately involved in the process.

doc t.

Bandaid

14 October 2003, 00:43

My .02...

DO and MD degrees are not the same. Doc T is 100% correct and is speaking from her PERSONAL experience. Roy, you seem to be speaking from "pre-med" experience. If you still want to go DO, then do it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a DO. However, your degree will not earn the same respect that a MD will enjoy especially in professional environments. You can still become a great practitioner... but initially you will have to overcome the perception that you went to a school that was easier to get into than medical school. Doc T's comments confirmed this when she talked about residency admissions with a DO degree. People that have BTDT concerning professional education know that DO schools in general accept candidates with lower scores and less academic achievement. Not exclusively of course, but that generally relates to higher quality candidates going to MD schools.

I am just being honest with you Roy, not trying to bust your bubble. I just want to make sure you have opinions from more than one angle. Since I am neither a DO or MD, I wanted to give you an unbiased opinion. Actually, the only people I have ever heard say that DO and MD schools were equal... were in fact DO's. Doc Doom is the first M.D. that has said otherwise..... but he may just be trying to play nice...;) Note-I agree there are many DO's that great doctors , I am speaking in general terms only.
Good luck in school, study hard, and if you decide you want to work 4 days a week, never work weekends or holidays, and not be on call........... come be a saca muelas instead:D

RIT_MEDIC

14 October 2003, 07:56

Damn, all these choices makes me glad I am just a medic. :D

James D

Doctor_Doom

14 October 2003, 08:02

Bandaid, you are right, I was trying to play nice. The general perception among M.D.'s is that D.O.'s come from less competitive and less rigorous schools, and many think that the D.O. philosophy is just so much hogwash. I have some friends who are D.O.'s who are good doctors, so I think they are fine people and good practitioners, but none of them are, say, orthopedic surgeons. They knew as well as anyone that they would never get a spot in such a competitive field. As Doc T said, in the competitive residencies the attendings involved in admissions and education know the schools and the academic standards their applicants have had to meet, and D.O.'s are just going to find it tougher to get a spot.

RoyWard

14 October 2003, 18:56

I would like to appologize to all of the BTDT's for my arrogance.

Good luck in school, study hard, and if you decide you want to work 4 days a week, never work weekends or holidays, and not be on call........... come be a saca muelas instead

Bandaid

Last night I actually interviewed a saca muelas for a paper I have due in one of my classes. All sounded pretty cool, especially OMFS.

Are you a GP or did you specilize?

P.S thanks for your help.

Sneaky SF Dude

15 October 2003, 01:20

Originally posted by Doc T
Stop arguing since you really are too young to know the answer and I am intimately involved in the process.

doc t.

Damn if the Doc ain't beginning to sound like a Team Sergeant.

Doc T

16 October 2003, 02:01

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Damn if the Doc ain't beginning to sound like a Team Sergeant.

I will take that as a compliment :D

Sneaky SF Dude

16 October 2003, 11:32

None higher. Only thing close is "He's good in the woods" or "I'll take him."

Doctor_Doom

25 January 2005, 00:27

Whatever happened to you Roy? Still looking to go to Med School and then SF?

Sinister Dave

25 January 2005, 21:45

For the youngster asking about arming SFDOQC student padres, the Battalion Padre we had in Okinawa had to get special dispensation from Chief of Chaplains and his church to bear arms during the Q Course. I was told before he got the go-ahead to carry an M16 they cut a special piece of BIG re-bar with an M60 sling and a shepherd's crook on the end. :)

We also had dentists and veterinarians in my Q-class back in 84. The veterinarian couldn't/wouldn't kill his rabbit during the survival part of Phase 1. His grader NCO killed it for him once he got back to MacKall.

Bailaviborita

30 January 2005, 19:12

I vaguely remember, in the early 90's, sitting in the shade of one of the WW II buildings near Pike Field on Bragg, sweating profusely in the hot, summer sun, drinking hot water from my canteen, along with 30 of my fellow suffering buddies: we were taking a break from some kind of training. Up walks a tall Chaplain who looked more like an infantry officer than a chaplain. He asked how things were going for us. He said something motivational. I don't remember what he said, but I remember how he said it: like he really meant it, like it wasn't just a cliche. As he turned away I saw the tabs. Didn't know how that had happened, but figured he probably had a really interesting story. Now I know- thanks for resurrecting the thread.

30 January 2005, 19:38

It's also possible that he was proir 18 Series before going through Divinity training and commissioning as a chaplain, not to mention many former 18Ds who went to Med school. There are a couple threads around here of similar chaplain stories. A proir Ranger comes to mind. Forget his name.

Polar Bear

30 January 2005, 20:00

Originally posted by DY
There are a couple threads around here of similar chaplain stories. A proir Ranger comes to mind. Forget his name.

Jeff Strueker

MilSciFiFan

31 January 2005, 00:31

DY, a tabbed chaplain who was the 3/75 BN Chaplain had a big influence on me when I was in basic and infantry school back in 1989. Ch. Glen Bloomstrom. I think he had spent prior time as a group chaplain in the 10th SF in Germany in the mid 80's. I remember his ability to run most people into the ground.

Originally posted by DY
It's also possible that he was proir 18 Series before going through Divinity training and commissioning as a chaplain, not to mention many former 18Ds who went to Med school. There are a couple threads around here of similar chaplain stories. A proir Ranger comes to mind. Forget his name.

31 January 2005, 06:09

All good stuff as I had "sensed the call" in my own life. However moral degeneracy lends itself to a "self- critiquing" realization that if the word "fuck" is a regular part of ones own vocabulary, and is thus not routinely exersized in one's sermons, then one is a hypocrate. Call me old fashioned, but when I see a chaplain who obviously has a combat arms background, I still want to know he is solid, and not just playing a game. If he's too much like "one of the boys" around "the boys", then chances are, he is playing both sides of the fence, living good off of Uncle. I, for one, am not going to trust him on family matters. Streucker on the other hand, strikes me as solid. He may go over the top, trying to "save" me, but at least I will know he is consistent and sincere. I would trust him on family matters.

SF Docs.
I think that the doctors working in and around Group who enjoy the respect of the SF community either possess a long tab, or are completely nuts. Considering the long tab, those who I saw that sported it with time in an 18 series MOS melded nicely as subject matter experts and knew exactly how to work with those who consulted them, i.e., the 18D, 91S, etc. I only know of one doc who considered the Q Course just for the purpose of acquring tenure in the SF community. He carefully weighed it out, and ulitmately decided the juice wasn't worth the squeeze. As for the rest of the non-tab wearing docs that I saw in Group, as previously stated, could care less about what a guy had on his uniform and squeezed his own citrus on a daily basis.