SR25 vs M14 DMR

[RifleMaster]

How would you compare the SR25 to the M14 DMR with Leupold M1 scope for urban antiterrorism ops?

I believe both of them have been field-tested in Afghanistan.

I'm mostly interested in inherent accuracy and reliability. The 7.62 cartridge is well known.

Thanks for any experience you can share!

Been quizzed about the M14.

Carl

Got my ammo built for the January Camp Pendleton long range competition!

[Olive Drab]

which leupold scope? many models utilize the m1 target knobs

[Gooch]

Accurized M14's aint never been real reliable. If I was going with a semi auto "sniper" rifle I would go with a AR15 varient and shoot the heavier .223 rounds. .223 is winning all of the National Match competitions, beating the .308 back to 600 yards. If you need the .308 then go with the SR25. Scope mounts on the M14 are twitchy...

The Army farted around with the M21 (M14) for years and no one lamented its demise when the M24 was issued.

Out

[Olive Drab]

Originally posted by Gooch
Accurized M14's aint never been real reliable. If I was going with a semi auto "sniper" rifle I would go with a AR15 varient and shoot the heavier .223 rounds. .223 is winning all of the National Match competitions, beating the .308 back to 600 yards. If you need the .308 then go with the SR25. Scope mounts on the M14 are twitchy...

The Army farted around with the M21 (M14) for years and no one lamented its demise when the M25 was issued.

Out
you are correct in saying the m14 is a poor mounting platform. too much needs to be done with bedding and other modifications to keep the rifle accurate. The ar15 and variants on the other hand have no need for action bedding and hit the same spot whether the upper and lower fit is tighter than my wallet or loose like my ex girlfriend.
I had an SPR for a while and i was very impressed at what it is capable of with 77 grain bullets. Definetly not an m24 but for intermediate range targets the 5.56 round is a fine choice. much better than the m14.
Also the .223 is beginning to pick up in 1000yd competition with 80 grain and some heavier bullets. Mid south shooter supply had a run of 100 grain bullets last year. If we can get them to stay supersonic long enough they just might be able to take over the 1000 yd competition area

[J.Meoff]

The terminal ballistics of 5.56 are pathetic at distance, regardless of the fact it succesfully punches paper. If you have to punch through intermediate barriers, cars, etc. good luck. Go 7.62

The m14 requires a much higher level of highly skilled upkeep, to remain accurate, than the SR series.

[Gooch]

Originally posted by RifleMaster
How would you compare the SR25 to the M14 DMR with Leupold M1 scope for urban antiterrorism ops?


At most urban CT ops distances and using the heavier bullets the .223 does just fine. Tests I've done show the .223 punches through glass, car doors etc just fine.

Since a semi auto is being considered for urban CT ops I made the assumption that multiple target engagement was an issue so the .223 starts having an advantage (smaller weapon profile, flatter trajectory, lower recoil, less blast, quicker recovery time etc).

I used to be anti-.223 until I worked with some guys who use a .223 as a partner gun and was amazed at the acuracy, ease of operation and terminal ballistics of the NEW generation of .223 weapons/ammo combos.

Granted, the 7.62 get a nod in terminal ballistics though for most operations.

[Finger]

What Gooch said about the M-14. May it rest in peace.

I am using a government supplied flat top AR10 here with Lupold
4.5 X 14 LR 50mm w/side paralax knob. hooked up with heavy badger rings. It performs well. It's not my Chandler, but I won't bring that down here.

But, I disagree with the Goocher some on the 223 vs 308 stuff.

I agree, it's easy and fast, but besides the terminal ballistics, I am much more confident with 308 on how much bullet I still have left after going through heavy glass or other mediums.

If things are that close and fast, I have my little AR with an EOTEC. Now that's fast.

Anyway good luck to you Rifle Master

and Gooch, one day let's team up somewhere. We will make Norm buy the Coronas.

[B 2/75]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What all of you simply misinformed, confused, misguided men said about my beloved M-14 and M-21... BITE ME.

It will never rest in peace.

WHY, you may ask?

Because it is a real battle rifle, one capable of knocking a fucker drop dead on his ass, first shot.

It will take a full packing of mud and come up shooting no sweat.

Sure, at Camp Perry, or at Quantico, Bullis, or fookin Oak Ridge, or any other range you care to name, the bolt guns and the new space guns might edge it out in good conditions, sometimes.

But the point is that the M-14 is a real soldier's rifle, which isn't going to go away anytime soon. Believe me, it will remain in active service for quite some time to come. Because it is just that... a real rifle, not a piece of shit that someone can just relegate to resting in peace.

so yall can just kindly BITE ME... :)

John's .02 Iraqi Dinar

[Finger]

LMAO Czar. Bless your loyalty

When I say RIP, I do that with much respect. This was my rifle and i loved her more than most. I slept with it in boot camp and carried it my first year and a half in Nam.

I still own two and love to shoot them.

The sight mount thing is just not worth the hassle.

About two years ago, I was running a class for LE snipers at Blackwater. One of the cops brought one of them "new and improved' Super 21's from SA. The poor kid was in tears all week trying to keep zero and qualify. It wasn't him. I put him on one of my bolt guns and the kid did fine. He spent a lot of money on that rifle. I think it would have been a much better rifle without the scope system.

Your right, it was a battle rifle and still is. My whole guard force down here has them, but I have no plans on scoping any of them and have so far sucessfully stopped any attempts by others to do so.

It took the Army twenty years or so and a ton of money to figure out it wasn't worth it to try and make a sniper system of her.

[Gooch]

Yo Czar!

The M14 is a great battle rifle! The M21/match grade clones suck for reliability. Even the guys at SOTIC will tell you they are glad to see the M21's go away. Rangers used to come to school with M21's and dump them in a few days for the reasons Finger states...We had Marines from Getmo come to school with Crane built M21's and they were no different. When MCSF was looking for a DM rifle we tested the Match M14 and ran from it. The M25 is a decent rifle but it still suffers from the tweeks required to get an M14 to hold sub moa.

I'll still stand by the new .223 rounds as a perfectly good round for urban sniper ops out to 200 yards for the reasons I stated in my last post. I would like to test some of the PRL tungsten core bullets against windows, doors etc but I also have heard that the Hornady TAP .223 is good to go. The .223 I've shot through car windows actually had less deflection through the glass than the .308.

Finger. I'm up for a rendesvous. I aint seen Norm in a coons age.

Out here

[Finger]

I'll be in J'ville for most of two weeks from 22 July til 5 Aug then it's back to paradise for me. If you in North kakalaki yell. I'll kick up Norm and maybe we can get together and jaw.

[B 2/75]

Yeah, I'll defend the lil bitch to the end... :D Damnit.

I suppose yer right about the scope thing. Hell, in a roundabout way, I just traded my ART II for a pocket knife, and that is truly a no shit story. Should have delivery of the little jewel in a week or so...

I miss my little baby, now that I'm over her in the desert. I carried one as a sniper when I was enlisted, and went Distinguished at Perry in 87 with a sweet little 4 digit serial number Winchester that I'd love to get my mitts on again. Here the ranges are sometimes very long, and a big bore gun would be nice to have in the truck :)

OK, someone tell me how it should be a .300 win mag... you can do it...

[sta marine]

oops... sorry wrong forum.

[Adam Stevens]

I used a m-14 for 11 years in National service and the reserves and the m-24 for the past 5 .The m-14 with the x6 scope is not bad , we did'tn have a night scope and the mounting was'tn very good but you can use it as a combat weapon street fighting etc ,not the most comfortable but it can be done.
The m-24 has a night scope works well but we have to carry a m-16 carbine .
The SR -25 is geting issued to the Special forces .
yours Adam

[JY]

hi Carl;

The M25 is the model M14 in use by some ODAs, it's real upgrade compared to the old M21. new barrel, McMillan stock, VersaPod bipod, OpsInc flash suppressor. Holds it's zero longer than the M21 and the bedding lasts longer. Accuracy is good out to around 600 meters with the M852 round.

The SR25 in it's Mk 11 Mod 0 version is the better in my opinion, with it's 20 inch barrel it just handles better in a MOUT situation and it's accuracy is superb. The stock configuration is better for engaging multi targets by handling recoil better cutting a lot of the rise out. Most of the Mk 11's have the M3 LR 3.5x10x Leupolds making it much better for close in MOUT using the 3.5x setting. If I have a choice of optic for MOUT I'd go with a low power fixed with a German post reticle with the SVD stadia range finder, I've used that and really like it for fleeting targets at MOUT ranges.

Both SWSs are working out well and it gets to a personal choice as to which to rely on. The old problems of the M21 are pretty much fixed in the current M25's and the SR25 is really a good system. My preference is the Mk 11, I like it's handling, the back up iron sights(remove scope great battle rifle) and magazine change goes better for me than the M14's rock in.

Take care, my friend...Jim

[longrange1947]

7.62mm is nice in many areas, 5.56 is nice in many areas. The M14 is a GREAT battle rifle and I loved it while I carried it. IT SUCKS as a sniper rifle. Carried that pig as well in M21 form. Taught SOTIC with it for two years until we could start using our built M24s and then got the real ones.

SR25, I would never have one though. Would rather go with the AR10T. The SR25 is one of those beasts that just has built in screw up. The ones that work well, work because of "military" armorers and not due to "from the factory readiness".

The 5.56 has an advantage to recoil management for rapid follow on shots while the 7.62mm will win in the "punch a hole in it" catagory. Actually, not to start a good one, the 5.56 penetration is rated rather low even close up. The 5.56 will not penetrate as much wall board as a 9mm. Go figure. :D

My two cents. :)

[Sharky]

Originally posted by longrange1947
7.62mm is nice in many areas, 5.56 is nice in many areas. The M14 is a GREAT battle rifle and I loved it while I carried it. IT SUCKS as a sniper rifle. Carried that pig as well in M21 form. Taught SOTIC with it for two years until we could start using our built M24s and then got the real ones.

SR25, I would never have one though. Would rather go with the AR10T. The SR25 is one of those beasts that just has built in screw up. The ones that work well, work because of "military" armorers and not due to "from the factory readiness".

The 5.56 has an advantage to recoil management for rapid follow on shots while the 7.62mm will win in the "punch a hole in it" catagory. Actually, not to start a good one, the 5.56 penetration is rated rather low even close up. The 5.56 will not penetrate as much wall board as a 9mm. Go figure. :D

My two cents. :)


Welcome back bro.

[Packrat23]

Longrange1947,

I respectfully and humbly would like add, regarding your 5.56 vs. 9mm penetration reference; the DOJ and several LE tactical teams here and in Europe conducted studies which indicate that SOFTPOINT 5.56 offered no more penetration that 9mm. This was to propose the replacement of MP-5's with M-4's, offering more versitility(ammo choice, range, accuracy, powerfactor) without the drawback of overpenetration. LE is always worried about overpenetration- can't have a stray round go through the wall and kill a baby in the next apartment- bad for business. 5.56 FMJ offers considerable penetration.

[longrange1947]

Packrat23 - you are quite right on the penetration of the 5.56. It is formidable under certain circumstances. To the point of over penetration and not shock to the body at close up ranges. That is the present complaint and the reason for the drive to the 6.8. :eek: Opps promised to keep my mouth shut on that one for a bit. :D

The NATO penetrator in the mil 5.56 round has problems of its own and would NOT consider it for any form of accuracy type shooting. We can't get it to group within a rain barrel at 200m :D

[Packrat23]

Rick,

NATO Penetrator accuracy;Are you referring to SS-109? Or something newer?

Alan

[longrange1947]

Naw, the standard nasty issue crap.

Not the new 77gr. That stuff groups great and will hit what you are aiming at out to about 550 meters.

[J.Meoff]

If you can get you claws on the mod O or mod 1 77gr 5.56, do it.

The current incarnation of the sr25, the MK11 mod O has proven trouble free on my team. Much unlike the ones we looked at a couple years ago.

I also have a few 24" AR10's around now, but there a wee long for jumping in and out of vehicles.

If I had a dream rifle it'd be a 16" mid-length, collapsable stock, AR10 or MK11 with an Aimpoint or EOTech. This I'd use on the insert/infil to the FFP. Additionally I'd have a 22" upper with an illuminated 3.5-10x, bagged, for use on target.

[mac3982]

bolt action! think bolt action ... just kiddin.... mod zero is a great weapon stoners shoot like a dream! i've worked on a few ar 10s had to "clean" some up to get them to function right, at the gunshop! has anyone had luck with ds arms?

[frogstyle]

JMEOFF indirectly made a valid point. WHo cares if it can poke a hole at 1000M. Can it drop someone at that range?

What does it do when it strikes flesh?

A friend recently said "we havent had anyone walk off a head shot yet"...

A very good point. But the head isnt always exposed, or the clear shot.


CZAR, I too love the M14... This is my first desert trip without one.

[Snowball]

The M14 is a great rifle and capable of some pretty good accuracy. I am rather fond of it and have two along with an M1A. At Camp Perry some years ago a guy shot a possible 500 with it up to 600 yards and there are some very good scores at 1000 yards in the Farr trophy (like 190+). The question is what can you make do the job? Which do you prefer? I have found that most guns can shoot better than the rifleman.

Scopes on the M14 seem pretty dependant on the mount. It is tough to find mounts which are manufactured square and straight so they mount on the receiver properly. In my experience, Smith seems pretty good. If you are shooting a commercial equivalent to the M14, it is hard to find receivers which are made mil spec for dimensions, let alone hardness.

Recoil you say? It is only a state of mind. Spend a couple of weeks on the trap range with old farts (wait, I'm an old fart ... no wait, I meant to say really young and really virile guys ... yeah, that's it, young and virile) shooting 200 rounds of 12 ga a day and pretty soon the 7.62 will feel like 5.56. I personally like the 7.62 because I am more sure that if I do my job and get a good hit, what I hit will stay down.

Despite all this, I have to admit that if I were a long gun, I probably would use a bolt gun and probably one in 338 Lapua to boot. But I also know that my weapon is between my ears and everything else is simply a tool. All that being said, get what you like because then you will practice with it, and if you practice, you will be able to do your part of the job and hit your target.

Respectfully submitted.

[RifleMaster]

I'm Back!! Out of town and real busy!

All, Thanks for the great replies!

Who said the 7.62mm has recoil? In the early 90's my fourteen year old Daughter could shoot it like a beebee gun! She also made the California Junior Shooting Team. Also, embarassed several young Army and Marine Team members.

Again thanks!

Stay safe!

Carl