Jane's raises issue whether Australia's Infantry can counter heavy attacks.

[bsmart]

The following is an extract from Janes Defence Weekly

CONCENTRATED FIREPOWER REMAINS A WEAKNESS ACROSS ADF
As a relatively small but all-volunteer force, the ADF will predominantly enter into both conventional and unconventional conflicts where its combat formations will be at a numerical disadvantage, particularly on land. Yet most Australian Army infantry battalions, for instance, are equipped and structured as light infantry, with all the incumbent firepower disadvantages this implies. The ability to counter a numerically superior enemy with concentrated and overwhelming firepower is therefore suspect.
[Jane's International Defense Review - first posted to http://idr.janes.com - 17 January 2003]


Any comments....

Johnno

[CASTLE37BRAVO]

I wonder why she thinks that being "light infantry" means inferior fire power. She must be in the military, and an infantry man herself. She must observe a lot of LFX's. :rolleyes:

[garett]

The concern here is probably the anti-armour capability of a light battalion. Also it's ability to basically keep up on the battlefield.

[CASTLE37BRAVO]

I know light Infantry units don't have armour, but isn't that the point? I spent 4 years in the 25th ID (Light) and it rocked! They are good at what they do and if used for the right purpose will be very successful. That goes for any light infantry unit.

Comparing Armour with Light infantry is comparing apples to oranges. For one it is two separate corps. The infantry only ride in the armour anyway. All you are doing with a Light unit is eliminating all the noise made by tanks and apcs. A properly trained light infantry unit, given all of the weapons systems available to them, can be just as effective in their role as tanks can be.

Remember, before someone goes and bags on a unit, they should think about why they exist in the first place. If a light unit was to do the same things as an armoured unit, wouldn't they just use armour? How tanks have you seen surgically carrying out missions or clearing buildings in a urban enviroment? They cannot do it. Only light infantry can do it. That is just one example for people like the author to consider.

[baboonass]

The obvious, what punched the allies in the face in ww2, is merely being restated; a combined arms approach will crush infantry.

Light infantry is just that, I know I wouldn't want to play with mechanized manuver elements, and the density of fire that can be brough to bear.

Pride in your unit is good, not recognizing short comings is not. Sun Tzu had a bit to say about knowing yourself and your enemy.

[CASTLE37BRAVO]

Baboonass, that's true. I wasn't saying that Light infantry is the be all end all. Simply put you still need them. Combined arms LFX are simply all elements working together. Take one away and you become less effective. Don't forget aviation, and Air force fits into that CALFX equation. Think one of them can do the job all on it's own, and you will be mistaken. Light and armored both have their good points. The idea is to take advantage of what they are good at. Obviously they cannot interchange job roles or the military would not spend so much money having both around. Another example of why light infantry is good to have is SOF's. They could not do their job bombing around in apcs could they? They are essential because they are quiet, small in size, and can strike at a specific target area without affecting other sensitive areas. If you need to just obliterate a target you call for Armour I guess. True their mass of fire would destroy just about anything that opposed them.

I think there is a reason that the 25th ID is not mechanized anymore.

[mangda]

If the Indonesians had got delivery of the SU30K before they went bankrupt then the Aussie defence boffins would be scratching their swedes.
As long as the ADF is used as a defence force and not some bargain basement mini expeditionary force then all will be fine.
The real nightmare, and hopefully it will never happen, would be to fight in PNG against heavy Indo incursions. Heavy weapons couldn't move anywhere, air support would be patchy to nonexistent, and the fighting would be close jungle nightmare against a skilled opponent, how many weeks/months before the army would be bled white?

[bsmart]

That is a nightmare scenario Mangda. One which I hope doesn't happen. As for how long till we were bled white fighting them, they've got in excess of 2 million people in their armed forces. It'd be the old China V USSR scenario....
The first week, there'd be a million Chinese prisoners
The second week, there'd be 5 million Chinese prisoners
The Third week, there'd be 10 million Chinese prisoners
The fourth week, China would rule the USSR!

Johnno

[abprar]

I think she is right.We only have about 3000 grunts if that.This includes old and bold.All batts are probably undermanned.1 and 2 RAR have swapped coys for years.3 is only 3 coys strong if that.I can remeber having just 5 blokes in a section whilst in 3 and never saw a full batt till I went to Timor with 6.

The power 25 ID had far outweighed our entire army I was in awe of it whilst I was there.

I can remeber watching 1 amoured and 5/7 doing a fire power display and 3 blokes exciting the M113.
I have also played enemy against them up north and had nothing stronger than a F89.Firepower my arse.
One shot from a carl gustav is all one will get now adays before another tank locks on you.

[mangda]

What about all the thousands of blood thirsty chocco's? These days you've got 40+ year old wastrels in reserve infantry, what are they going to do throw their walking sticks at the enemy?

[CASTLE37BRAVO]

.....Can someone say lack of funding for Defence? I think it is sad. I feel that the ADF at large gets the shit end of the stick when it comes to having all the tools to be the best you can be. One of those tools just happens to be funding. Where does it all go? Why can't the ADF afford to take on more soldiers, and equip them with better weapons and gear?


......Abprar, Glad you enjoyed your time with the 25th. I loved my time there. They are just a small tip of what kind of power there are in light units throughout the U.S. Military. Not taking anything away from the Cav and tankies. Still it's the light units in question here.

[aussie]

abprar
All battalions are now 100% manned, the army is not taking rifleman recruits until April. As for the firepower light infantry aint the problem, the problem is our light infantry are "lighter" than other countries light infantry. Plus there is zero MOUT training. Its bullshit how long its taking to get the new equipment, i find it hard to believe that it takes till 2010 to tender and deliver a fucking new fire support weapon to get the battalions some firepower. We should get the MAG 58 at platoon level for a start as well.

[CASTLE37BRAVO]

Feel your pain there. You know the F 88 was supposed to be phased out in 97 to get in the M-16. That hasn't happend. Like you said the Mag 58 (M 240) would be a welcome addition too. When I left Hawaii in '01 every engineer platoon had 1 and 2 minimi( M249) per squad. Not bad huh? Can't beat what armored has, but it would make you feel better in a Patrol base.

[emfouraone]

Hi all, my first post here... I think from our stand point armour isn't really valuable to us in defense as we're surrounded by water.. and that water is patrolled by the navy and in part by the RAAF... so this is the question... does our defence force really need anti-armour capability when all the army does is defend our home and participate in UN peacekeeping missions? (apart from SF operating in the war against terrorism) Our only real military threats are to the North-West and are separated from our mainland by a large-ish body of water, its not like they can leave at 5AM, land large amounts of armour by 8AM, have breakfast and kick our asses by lunch time, and if they did attempt it.. any transport for armour is much larger than the 12 foot termite infested POS the illegal immigrants use to make their dash for woomera making it easier to spot. Anyway, enough uneducated rambling here.. I'll make another post explaining who Iam :D .

emfour.

[mangda]

That's all well and good but the in the last 20 years the most deployed force is the army. If you're going to send them to foreign lands they need the full weapons suite.
A small amount of modern quality armour and anti armour capability is critical, otherwise you run the risk of putting flesh up against steel and thats only going to end one way.
As someone that humped a MAG58 for five years what's the urgency of reintroducing it into platoons?

[without remorse]

Do not underestimate the capbilities of the Indonesian. Granted they could not take Australia by force but if a extremist regime did take power in a very unstable economic and religous Indonesia, something we have seen throughout the world who knows what they have in mind for us. As an indonesian goverment official said earlier this week " there is a very fine line between moderate and extreme throughout muslim indonesia". And if indonesia did someday try an attack on Australia and its regional allies(PNG), there would be fuck all we could do about it. i mean they wouldnt win a war against us due to geographical problems( what the fuck are they going to do once they land on the West coast they have 1000s of km of the most hostile country in the world to cross and there supply lines would be long and undefendable) and technological superiority. then again we couldnt win either due to mass indonesian numbers. they only way to break the stalemate would be U.S. intervention which we will not get if we dont back the U.S. in a war agianst Iraq. Having said that if Australia does back the U.S. we could cope slack from the numerous extremist terrorist groups but personally i believe Mr Howard has done the right thing in depoloying our troops and is securing a safe future for our country.

[GackMan]

I was in indonesia last year and my impression of the country was that it was totally out of control. Nobody was in charge. At least that was the impression I had of the place. Jakarta and the 50 mile surrounding it.

I don't see them mounting an organized armoured threat against the Aussie mainland... Now, going to get them. that would be a big mess.

[aussie]

I can't see any major threat from Indonesia myself. For them to pose a threat they would need massive economic growth for a sustained period like 50 years and a stable government. If this occurred i doubt they'd be interested in getting themselves in shit invading a UN member state. Even in PNG was invaded we would gain support from either the UN, USA or ASEAN nations. Plus if we had to we could abandon PNG its a failed state anyway.

IMO the most likely scenario for a conflict with Indonesia is if West Papua got fuckin messy. The best way with dealing with Indonesia is getting cruise missilies and maintaning overwhelming air superiority. I doubt there gonna fuck with us when we can bomb Jakarta at will.

The idea of Indonesia attempting a landing on Australian soil is a joke the only country that could do is America maybe the UK and in the future China.

[abprar]

We use to have the mag58 at section level when I joined.A person I know in the know tells me they are conducting test for a new 7.62mm weapon.I know ,I know its a waste of money.

We hailed the F89 and its a good weapon.Maybe we can have a couple of F89's or paraminimis in a section and a mag58.The f89 is easier to patrol with though.As for the m16a2 it was what we wanted originally but we could not get the liscence for it.The F88 out did it in test anyway.I think history will prove the F88 a good system.Although why everyone doesn't have a F88c is beyond me.GLA aside.

I know also that auto grenade launchers and 50 cals were tested by 6RAR and given the boot.Go figure.I also believe that the browning will be replaced by the mark 3 browning.


Aussie.
i have heard that battalions are 100% but that will be the day.Maybe there is no more money for recruit training.Excuse me for being cynical.I hope 1and 2 are full strength.5/7 will be as its in ET.But why can't 3 and 6 have 4 rifle coys.Shit I don't think we got enough air lift to drop the whole of 3 anyway.


I believe that there should be more rewards for people who join the services.As in members given preference for governmant jobs and discounts for uni courses.Especially those who have no transferable skills to civi street.
And lets go back to warrie ads please and cut these gay ads we have now.

I'm also glad to see some people believe in a stronger military whether you blokes agree with me or not,I think we are all on the same team.

Alright then I've vented myself ...have a good day

[aussie]

I think if we are to have a fourth company it should be a weapons company with more mortars and machine guns. The MAG58 shouldn't be at section level it sacrifices to much mobility.

[bee_gee]

Though I am not in the military, I would like to give my opinion on this matter.

The Australian infantry is very good for our region. Up north, PNG and Indonesia are covered with rainforests. In a possible war against Indonesia, armour will not be useful going through there, but light infantry, like ours, would be. The only time that armour would be used on a wide scale is if there was an invasion of Australia through the desert. However, the Indons are not that good at desert fighting since there is not desert in their country. And if they tried to invade, pray to God that the RAAF and RAN stop them from crossing the Timor Stait and ensure that they do not have a bridgehead.

However, I agree, we need much more money coming into the ADF, and we should 'beef-up' some what.

[mangda]

Centurian tanks in Vietnam saved lives when assaulting bunker complexes without the tanks men unnecessarily died. Same would be the situation in PNG if shit hit the fan.
Was the same deal in WW2 when M3 light tanks were shipped over in pieces, provided invaluable support and saved lives.

[CASTLE37BRAVO]

Just proves that light and armored need each other. Neither should be done away with. It is clear what both bring to the game.

[bee_gee]

I understand the need of armour in the jungle to take out bunkers. But beefing up our light infantry would reduce our ability to get to areas quickly and quietly. There is a need for some armour if there is a shit fight in, say, PNG, but light infantry would come to better use.

Maybe what we need is more infantry-armour exercises to increase the co-op between the different units involved.

[baboontwozero]

Where are the MAG58s now, in a battalion MG platoon? The Brits are bringing them back at platoon level, maybe this is something to look at.

[mangda]

It's what we did to the MAG's though, we welded BREN bipods in place of the alloy bipod and instantly turned the gun into a piece of shit.
After the 60 was withdrawn it was a laugh, BRENS were reintroduced for a while then the British L7 then the FN MAG58.
Although even after the issuing of MAG's the BRENS were often used during training due to blank shortage. The M60 used plastic blanks but the MAG couldn't handle them whilst the BREN could.
I still remember scowering the scrub of blue water and high range trying to find my lost BREN mags post contact, thank god for disintergrating link.

[Xdeth]

The idea of Indonesia attempting a landing on Australian soil is a joke the only country that could do is America maybe the UK and in the future China.

I'm still volunteering to recce for that invasion, mission requirements are two US govt. credit cards and one pair OD green socks.

[jimbeam]

The real nightmare, and hopefully it will never happen, would be to fight in PNG against heavy Indo incursions. Heavy weapons couldn't move anywhere, air support would be patchy to nonexistent, and the fighting would be close jungle nightmare against a skilled opponent, how many weeks/months before the army would be bled white?

Why, in gods name, would the Australian Army take on Indonesia in PNG? What possible reason could there ever be for that to take place? It would be suicide. We could kill at a ratio of 20:1 and still be taken to the cleaners. The ADF is exactly that-a defence force, not an expeditionary force. We have no need to spend up big on armor, because there isn't a nation on this earth apart from the US that could land even a decent amount of Infantry on Australian shores, let alone infantry + armor + air support.

Look at the preperation, planning, logistics and manpower needed to prepare for war in Iraq. Australia is probably 10 times the size of Iraq, with a similar population. Invasion isn't an issue Australia will have to deal with for a long time yet. Therefore, we don't need significant armor.

[RKPO]

PNG, I think you'd suffer heavy losses if you were trying to defend a line drawn on a map (border), but I'd say let them into the jungle's but deny them the village's etc.. ok so you have to control the region around the villages to resupply....... and in PNG this isnt suited to armour, but at least armour does provide a bit of support in villages that can be reached by the amour. Hopefully advancements in strategic recon and strike could be used together to detect and destroy supply lines isolating the enemy forces?
PNG is rugged so I imagine it would be harder work for infantry to invade without air supremecy, then to defend with air supremecy.
Sounds a bit Vietnam-ish, but PNG is an island afterall.

[mangda]

Look at PNG though, it's on the brink of financial collapse, hiv explosion on a mini African scale, tribal society under enormous pressure, crime rate like no other, even without Indo 'threat' the place is going to implode in the not too distant future.
The Indo's have Irian Jaya, a bigger much richer and important version of east Timor, opm not much threat but still existing and niggling, if things go to shit why not start a proxy insurgency in PNG as a spoiler to any free Irian ambitions? Just look at the Solomon's and their half arsed little civil war that nobody seems to be able to stop.