Rucks + training

[Zoso]

Hi,

This is my first post but I've read a lot and done searches but couldn't find answers to a few of my questions (searches answered many of them, this board is a shrine of knowledge). What ruck would you guys suggest for training (5-week SF program in particular)? I was looking at the Blackhawk SOF ALICE pack but don't know much about it. Should I get that one? Or something cheaper/different?

Enlistment for me would be a long time away but I still plan on getting in as best shape possible (I found a good PT program to become accustomed to before I start rucking heavy loads for long distances) and staying at that plateau. I currently am in the hiking club (weekend hikes, 1-2 a month - usually about 10 miles I believe) in my school but the problem is that without the transportation to upstate trails, there aren't really woods/trails around here. Should I do road marches/treadmill at varying inclines when I can't ruck in the woods? Lastly, when I load up my ruck, should I do it with actual weights or just what I will be using throughout the duration of the ruck (food, water etc.)?

If anything I asked was answered elsewhere I'm sorry -- I honestly did search.

Thanks for any help,
Zoso

[Special Forces]

Zoso:

Get an issue Alice pack and frame. Its what you will use in most units and schools.

What does it matter to ruck training what the weight consists of? 50 lbs of lightweight gear weighs the same as 50 lbs of iron.

Frequency needs to be 2-3 times per week, minimum. Why can't you walk to class, ruck before/after classes, on weekends, etc.?

Go here, read everything, hope it helps.

http://www.goarmy.com/job/branch/sorc/sf/specforc.htm

TR

[Zoso]

Thanks Reaper for such a speedy response.

Now that I look at it the weight question WAS stupid on my part - sorry. I am definatley going to just walk with a ruck when I can, rucking the 2 miles to school actually isn't a bad idea for a light workout, thanks for that idea too.

*edit - ran a quick search saw I can get a standard issue ALICE ruck from a surplus store

Thanks again

[cj]

Originally posted by Zoso


I found a good PT program to become accustomed to before I start rucking heavy loads for long distances) and staying at that plateau. I currently am in the hiking club (weekend hikes, 1-2 a month - usually about 10 miles I believe) in my school but the problem is that without the transportation to upstate trails, there aren't really woods/trails around here. Should I do road marches/treadmill at varying inclines when I can't ruck in the woods? Lastly, when I load up my ruck, should I do it with actual weights or just what I will be using throughout the duration of the ruck (food, water etc.)?
Thanks for any help,
Zoso

Don't spend a lot of time practicing with a ruck; instead focus on building your endurance with running. Running is the single most effective training regimen that will prepare you for any physical activity in the military, to include SFAS. If you ruck once a week, thats plenty; should plan on running at least 5 times a week at ever increasing distances and pace.

[Razor]

People respond differently to specific physical training. I was a running muldoon, but I know that if I had not spent quality time under a ruck prior to SFAS, I'd have never got past Week 2.

[Polar Bear]

I run allot and it will get you into shape, but nothing will replace putting that big green tick on your back. Your body must become accustom to the weight.

Just my .02 cents take it as you wish

[magician]

I have to agree with that point, Razor.

I was a running fool since high school (ran cross-country), and it definitely gave me a leg up on the path to Ranger BN and beyond.

Rucking wasn't something we did much of until I got to SF. We would do road marches, but they were infrequent. We would spend days, even weeks, in the bush under the ruck, but we never speed marched until I got to SF.

And then, it kicked my ass, big-time. I can still remember doing it in the old Phase I of the SFQC. I was young and in great shape, so I hung. As I got older, though...that shit really started kicking my ass.

Different strokes for different folks. Some stockier dudes find rucking easier, and running harder. Some slimmer dudes find running easier, and rucking harder. That may be an oversimplification. It was true for me, and the observation seemed generally true over time.

Figure out what you do best, and then compensate by working harder at what you don't do well.

Regardless, you will have to be able to run, ruck, do the APFT, and be an athelete. You will have to be able to swim, and the more limber you are, the better you will be able to avoid injury.

No matter what, just run or ruck, every day or so, swim two or three days a week (free-style in the pool, and get to a point where you can do it for an hour), lift weights and work your gut without mercy every other day or so, incorporate sit ups and pushups and PULL UPS, and every day, without exception, stretch long and hard and well.

Now that I am older, I get a lot out of squats (I know, I know), calf raises, and ham curls and thigh extensions. Don't just let them develop naturally from running and rucking. Make sure you incorporate them in your weight routine, as well.

Some may find this overkill, but it represents an ideal. I try to do it myself now that I am old and have more time. If you are in the service, you will definitely be working out at night to get this all squeezed in. It could easily take a good three hours.

[cj]

Originally posted by Razor
People respond differently to specific physical training. I was a running muldoon, but I know that if I had not spent quality time under a ruck prior to SFAS, I'd have never got past Week 2.

Good point. I agree everyone responds differently to physical training. Just remember to sway those hips and take care of your feet! If you have the honor to make it to SFAS and beyond, there are two things you must take care of before anything else; your weapon and more importantly your feet. Both allow you to accomplish the mission and more importantly they can save your life and possibly the lives of other team members.

Basic lessons of foot care: change your socks often and use powder when changing the socks. Immediately upon completing a hump, dry the feet, apply powder and put on a clean and dry pair of socks. Moreover, make sure when reporting to SFAS you have a broken in pair of boots.

These may seem like trivial matters, but, it will save you plenty of misery and possibly avoid failure. What they don't tell you in the recruiting SF & Ranger brochures is that jumping out of airplanes lasts somewhere between 30 seconds to one minute and then you get to spend the next days or weeks hauling upward of 100 + pounds on your back. Loads of fun!

:cool:

[Special Forces]

Originally posted by cj
Don't spend a lot of time practicing with a ruck; instead focus on building your endurance with running. Running is the single most effective training regimen that will prepare you for any physical activity in the military, to include SFAS. If you ruck once a week, thats plenty; should plan on running at least 5 times a week at ever increasing distances and pace.

Don't know about your experience, but here at the Schoolhouse, I see a LOT more people fail because they can't ruck long and hard than guys who fail to make the run times.

You will not get into good ruck form only stepping out once per week when you are going to spend better than 12 long days with one on at SFAS.

Hope this helps.

TR

[Zoso]

Thanks for all the tips and suggestions guys, all of it is greatly appreciated.

I've started running and after a few weeks of it I'll start my rucking - mostly due to the fact that I can't find an Army Surplus store around here (Long Island) -- if anyone knows of one please tell. If I DO find one (I think I may have an idea where one is) but they don't have a large issue ALICE ruck can anybody suggest a reliable online site to get one at?

Thanks again

[makane]

What town are you in? Here are some:

Jay's Military
141 Fulton Ave
Hempstead, NY
(516) 483-4977

Evans Army & Navy Store
128 Gardiners Ave # 30
Levittown, NY
(516) 796-8353

East Northport Army Navy Store
275 Larkfield Rd
East Northport, NY
(631) 261-2950

G & D Military Surplus Inc
175 Waverly Ave
Patchogue, NY
(631) 654-5785

Hope this helps.

[Zoso]

oh damn thanks!

I'm in Albertson - close to Mineola (most well known town nearby)

Hempstead is the closest but I'd rather avoid that area :) -- I'll go to the Levittown one which is close enough

[makane]

Hempstead is not that bad! If you make it into the Army, you'll have to deal with different cultures everyday at work. Think of it as good immersion training. I'm from NYC by the way.

[Petelink]

After reading this thread and a few others related to rucking, I'm curious as to how beneficial doing a bunch of rucking is for the non-prior service guys who face around 5 months of schooling before hitting SFAS. Can a good rucking routine be kept through OSUT, Airborne and SOPC I (plus PLDC for us Guard guys)? Not having been to these schools I have no idea, but it seems like it would be difficult, if even allowed. Anyone have any suggestions about if/how this can be done? If the routine can't be maintained then is it really worth all that pounding before hand, versus just building the muscles through the exercises Magician mentioned?

[MK19 (mod 3)]

You will definitely be allowed to ruck on your own during Airborne and PLDC. Depending on your OSUT, you may also be able to ruck around your track once you get a couple of weeks into basic. I imagine if you ask your Drill Sergeant about doing extra PT, and he's not a complete dick, then he will probably let you; mine did. I ran on my own almost every night (just had to sign in and out and take a battle buddy).

As for SOPC, I will let one of the SF guys tackle that one.

[cj]

Originally posted by The Reaper
Don't know about your experience, but here at the Schoolhouse, I see a LOT more people fail because they can't ruck long and hard than guys who fail to make the run times.

You will not get into good ruck form only stepping out once per week when you are going to spend better than 12 long days with one on at SFAS.

Hope this helps.

TR

I wasn't clear in my first post; let make up for it by elaborating on my position. I am not taking issue with putting time under a ruck; I think feeling the weight and putting the time in is very important aspect to training. However, my own opinion and experience has been that building up aerobic conditioning for endurance purposes is by far the most critical aspect to training for courses like SFAS & SFQC. The most effective aerobic conditioning I am aware of involves extended high intensity movement like running. Yes humping with a ruck can also be aerobic conditioning. Additionally, training with a ruck has a significant beneficial impact on ones conditioning. This is certainly the case at the earlier stages of training, however, too much at a high level near the end of the training cycle can lead to breaking down the body and have detrimental affects on other aspects on ones physical training. This problem should especially be avoided as one gets closer to class dates.

Interesting study might be to compare individual run times against graded ruck times of students attending SFAS and SFQC. I would be willing to guess those individuals in the top 10% in running are also scoring very well on the graded ruck marches. Moreover, running well enough to pass a graded 2 mile run doesn't necessarily translate into high aerobic conditioning. Therefore the objective in the training cycle is to develop maximum endurance and not simply to pass pass a fixed time, whether its running or rucking.

In summary, high aerobic conditioning translates into physical endurance and physical endurance I believe can translate into very good times in both runs and rucks. Yes I believe you can achieve high levels of physical endurance with rucking, however, I believe running is a more efficient method in reaching this goal. Also keep in mind they are not mutually exclusive, running with a ruck is pretty much what you do in SFAS and SFQC, at least that’s what we did in pre-phase and phase 1. .

I remember twenty years ago last month sitting in the second floor classroom and talking to 1st Sgt Fontana (Fonzi) at the old barracks in pre-phase and asking this same question, his advice was “run son, just run.” BTW-Fonzi had this big black mustache and very quiet demeanor. However, just being around him was something special. I wanted to be just like him when I grew up. He always wore sweats and sneakers, never was in uniform except on the change of command ceremony when he went across town as an E-9. I also had the honor of jumping behind Maj. Howard on our final 12 mile graded ruck march at the conclusion of phase 1. I met him again in our phase 2 light weapons class and the first thing I noted was he wore sterile cammies. Now here is the most highly decorated guy in the US military and he's not even wearing jump wings. For those who don't know he was nominated for the MOH on three occassions-awared once and spent five years in RVN-mostly in SOG. Again very quiet guy but extremely impressive.

Remember in the final analysis it’s all about not quitting, the rest is just BS.

[Special Forces]

cj:

We have sliced and diced the stats just about every way you can., and paid ARI a ton of money to research them as well. The prep outlined in the SFAS Handbook is the best way to get in shape I have seen. It outlines pretty much everything needed on the road to SFAS, except for pull-ups and rope climbs.

I talk to students who have been selected and non-selects every class. The vast majority, when asked if they would do anything differently, state that they wish they had done more rucking prior to SFAS. I have not yet in the 16 classes I have observed had someone tell me they wish they had run more. Running might be 5% of SFAS, and 0% of Phase II. Rucking is more than 50% of each.

Rucking is only marginally comparable to running, in that only a speed march would achieve the heart rate to be a significant aerobic event. A two mile run in 14:00 does not compare to rucking cross country with a load (while land navigating with map and compass) over 80 kms., for 72 hours, self paced. The majority of ruck failures at SFAS have poorly conditioned feet, or lack lower body strength, or weak backs and shoulders, they just walk too slowly, or they quit due to fatigue or pain. I agree with you that the top 10% of runners probably do well at rucking, but I see this as more indicative that the guys who dedicated themselves to running also got themselves in shape by rucking as well. FWIW, the two fastest ruckers on the ODAs I was on were among the 3 slowest runners (team rucks, over 12 miles or more. The runners were slim and low body fat, the ruckers were squatty and heavy set.

Not quitting is good, and will get you to the board, but high scores and better performance during the 20 or so days of SFAS not involving running will get you selected quicker and more surely.

Looks like I went to the SFQC right after you, MAJ Howard had just left, but Zero Week(s) and Phase I were designed to eliminate the weak back then.

The ARI stats for APFT success rates and ruck success rates are as follows.


c. You need to be in very good shape and able to carry a rucksack day after day for the entire time you are at SFAS. This is an assessment of you. We do not teach or coach you to get through SFAS. You will be challenged.

d. The Army Research Institute (ARI) has been able to closely correlate performance on the APFT and a 4-mile rucksack march with success in SFAS. During fiscal year (FY) 89 and FY 90 ARI evaluated the cumulative APFT score (17 to 21 age group standard) with the percent of candidates who started SFAS and who passed the course. The average PT score for SFAS graduates is 250. The average PT results are depicted below:

APFT Score Percent Passing Course

206-225 31

226-250 42

251-275 57

276 or higher 78

The higher the APFT score, the better the percent that passed the course. You need to be in top physical condition and you should do well in SFAS.

e. ARI evaluated the ability of SFAS students to perform a 4-mile ruckmarch in battle dress uniform (BDU), boots, M-16, load bearing equipment, and a 45-pound rucksack. The overall average 4-mile ruckmarch time for graduates is 61 minutes. The average PT results are depicted below:

Ruckmarch Time (Min) Percent Passing Course

54 and less 81

55-64 63

65-74 34

75-84 10

The less time to complete a 4-mile ruckmarch, the better the percent who passed the course.

I would interpret this to mean that if you can score above 276 (on a real APFT, not a buddy check) and make 4 miles in 54 minutes or less according to the Task and Conditions specified, do well learning land nav and don't quit, you would have a better than 80% chance of selection. Personally, I would like to see how the 206 APFT score and 18 minute mile guys made it at a 30% rate. The data and the SFAS Prep Handbook are available from the SF recruiters or at:

http://www.goarmy.com/job/branch/sorc/sf/specforc.htm

Hope you find this of interest.

TR

[Petelink]

Thanks MK19, good to know a routine can be continued at least through basic. My OSUT is infantry so I assume it will be very similar to basic as far as what is allowed. Anyone know about Airborne and SOPC? Also, how much does the load bearing equipment weigh? This thread has definitely convinced me to start rucking now.

[magician]

Not to digress, but the question regarding the weight of the LBE brings up a subject I am very angry about, and have been angry about for a good 20-years.

In training, the weight of the LBE is fairly negligible. Your magazines are not filled with 5.56, you aren't carrying frags or smoke grenades. All you have, pretty much, is empty mags and a couple quarts of water. And your personal bullshit, pengun flares, little panels, mirrors, cammo, etc.

When you carry a combat LBE, it is a good 45 to 50-lbs just by itself. That's the weight of twelve 30-round magazines of 5.56, a couple smoke grenades, and a couple of frags or concussion grenades. It does not include the weight of your 40mm rounds, if you are carrying any of that (and I certainly would, if I had an M4 with the launcher). It also includes your 2-quarts of water, and your personal shit. You put it on, and you instantly realize that you have been training like a big cheating pussy, carrying a good 50-lbs less than you are suddenly going to take into battle.

Your ruck, with only a couple loose bandoliers of 5.56, 100-rds of 7.62, a lone mortar round, a single claymore, a couple sticks of C4, and your WP, thermite and CS grenades, 4-liters of water, some stripped down MRE's and MAYBE a poncho liner, is AT LEAST 45-lbs, and probably more like 60-lbs. My personal ruck, with a loaded M5 aidbag, was easily a hundred pounds, and I definitely skimped on chow and took no poncho liner or any other personal comfort items beyond a couple tins of Cope.

You need to train as you will fight. When the balloon goes up, you will go to war with the same LBE you have worn for years. Your shit has to be set up right, and it has to be wired and tied and taped and goddamned go to go, and that means with a real-world load of ordinance. You have to know that your shit isn't going to be breaking on you, as you will be needing your ammo. You will wear the same goddamned ruck you have trained with. It will be sagging like never before, as ammo stretches the seams in ways unlike the stupid shit you normally carry in a training ruck. (Who the fuck takes spare boots and cammies to combat?). So, you need to make sure that your ruck is reinforced and taped and that you have spare buckles and straps and 550-cord and stuff to repair it if it breaks while you are in the shit.

Anyway, I don't want to digress. All I'm trying to say is that getting a real-world alert and loading up at the combat grocery store of munitions is a big wake up call. I tried to do something about this in every unit I was in after I got my own big spanking, but I obviously never made ACOS.

For what it's worth.

[AirbornePaintman]

AMEN!!! I found out that unpleasant truth not long ago. Add in a flak vest, ceramic plates, ammo, grenades, claymores, water, and suddenly your vest weighs more than your fucking training ruck.

[magician]

Oh, yeah. I completely forgot about the flak vest. Ceramic tiles were after my time.

Phew.

[Razor]

Great post, Magician, but you forgot the bane of the modern warrior's combat load--three days worth of batteries! :eek:

[Doogie320]

Originally posted by Razor
Great post, Magician, but you forgot the bane of the modern warrior's combat load--three days worth of batteries! :eek:

BA-5590's? Now you're talking..... Not any of that lightweight stuff like some C or D cells. REAL batteries......

Or my favorite, the DMDG.

BTAR

[cj]

Now take all that weight and work the ramp as a jumpmaster. You figure 120 + pounds of ruck, weapon, lbe, vest..etc, add another forty to fifty pounds of main and reserve and to top it off you have to take a knee on a bouncing ramp to conduct the dz spot. After spotting and clearing the dz you then have to get back on your feet to clear the aircraft. F---ing bitch! I didn't mind the doors, but those ramp jumps were pretty rough.

[Special Forces]

Worst I ever saw was on a HALO infil on the way to a 30 day UW exercise.

Lightest guys on the team got the heavier loads to jump to keep everyone together under canopy. I had an average load, and my ruck was 131 lbs. Heaviest one was 145 lbs. Thirty days of batteries, med supplies, ammo, commo gear, NVDs, instructional materials, etc., is NOT light.

Add the MT1XX parachute with oxygen system at 55 lbs, LBE weighing about 25 lbs., and an eight lb rifle.

We stumbled and staggered to the ramp with over 200 lbs. of gear apiece to do a HALO jump. We didn't know it at the time, but we were seriously overloading the canopies.

On the ground, even after dumping the jump gear, no one could move tactically. We had to lay up a couple of clicks from the DZ and cache much of the expendables.

Not a typical load, but we never went to the field with less than 70 lbs. each. Guys going into cold weather areas had even more stuff to hump.

Just my experience, YMMV.

TR

[Doogie320]

Jesus, Reaper! Your wingloading was... 1.5:1? On a 7 cell? Must've been a great landing.

Hope no one was hurt.

BTAR

[Special Forces]

Originally posted by Doogie320
Jesus, Reaper! Your wingloading was... 1.5:1? On a 7 cell? Must've been a great landing.

Hope no one was hurt.

BTAR

With all that gear, I probably weighed just over 400 lbs. SF is not a weak man's game. Team members ranged from 145 lbs to 230 lbs, and the 145 lb. guy was a real exceptional individual.

The MT-1XX, essentially the same as the current MC-4, is a 375 sq. ft. canopy designed to permit big guys to do combat MFF infils with heavy loads. It is a slow flying pig, well, until you hang that much weight under it. Then it gets rather sporting. Nevertheless, we were over the limit, as the heaviest guy was probably near 430 or 440 lbs.

Clearly, we were combat ineffective with that load. After ten paces with 160 to 180 lbs each, everyone but the lead guy was bent over just looking at the ground trying to keep putting one foot in front of the other. dropping the rucks to 80 lbs or so made it much easier, but I can tell you now, even that takes its toll on the body after the years pile up.

No need to practice with anything much over 60 lbs or so. Too hard on the back and lower joints.

TR

[magician]

TR, I've been saying that shit for years.

[Doogie320]

My on-the-fly math skills suck, y'all were around 1.1:1 psf. I have a Raven II that I've jumped at .9:1 psf and the landings were less than great. I can imagine that the porosity of your canopies was much greater than mine. Ouch!

To echo your earlier posts, running and rucking weren't the same. For me, my feet and calves/ shins gave out before my legs and hips did. It is one thing to ruck with X weight for Y distance on hardball. It is another beast altogether to ruck the same weight and distance in the sugar sand of Ft. Bragg. There is no replacement for rucking in the sand, at least none that I've found.

BTAR

[Boat Guy]

the two fastest ruckers on the ODAs I was on were among the 3 slowest runners (team rucks, over 12 miles or more

Reaper, gotta say I was one of those.
I had to PT to ODA standards, and had to pass Re-Certs, (even though I was not on an ODA)These were my NCOIC's expectations, not duty requirements.

When we did 12 or 20 milers I was almost always in the top 3-5 finishers. My Ruck times (only 50lbs plus about 20 LBE) were always fast. However I was one of the slowest runners.
I found that having been instructed on weight placement and fitting my ruck properly by the team guys really helped me perform better.

I would say ruck as much as you can. While I agree running develops you for most things, I really believe that getting under that ruck and moving out is the best way to prepare.