Blackhawk Down

[abn_rngrr]

Just finished reading this book. Good overall, but I'm surprised (concerned) about some things. First, there seems to be almost no input from Ranger NCOs, particularly at the squad and platoon level. I find it very unlikely that this is actually representative of what went on, maybe not as far the actual events and personal recollections, but with respect to the way the battle was fought at the squad tactical level.

And from where did all this animosity toward the Rangers from Delta come? Unless things have changed drastically a large part of Delta is Regiment guys. Most of the Ranger bashing seems to come from a single Delta NCO, however. Very little input from others it seems.

Interested in knowledgable replies.

[UNCcadidiot]

I went to a booktalk given by the author and fortunatly there were very few people in attendance, so I got to ask alot of questions of Mr. Bowden.
I noticed that he seemed to have just fallen in love with Delta, and thought they were simply gods gift to soldering. I would not be suprised if he magnified or distorted negative comments and feelings about the Rangers that Delta may have had because he thinks that because of Deltas elite status, they would look down upon their fellow soldiers.

[jtorak]

To be honest with you I think that Bowden was looking at the situation from a civilian point of view. They all expect Army troops to be great individualistic Americana types. Rarely do they take into account the specific units mission and training doctrine. It is true that when it comes to CT type ops that CAG is second to none, they are trained to operate as a smaller unit. To a civilian this is how EVERYONE should operate. Lets face it, We're not all 32 years old with 2.5 kids and an MP5 in the cupboard. You Rangers are hard hitting SOF infantry that still follow traditional COC and organization. There is nothing wrong with this, however not every 17 year old Ranger is going to perform like Bowden or other civilians are expecting you to. A single person roving machine of tactical wizardy and destruction able to leap small buildings..... yada yada yada I think you get my drift. Your leaders on the ground did what they thought necessary at the time and you guys still kicked the shit out of those Somalis, the Ranger way. So don't sweat the small stuff... Most of us SOF operators are a bunch of egomaniacs anyway....a little shit talking to the public never hurt anyone...

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

I thought the book was well written, but just like I have told others, it does have some problems in that Mark was only able to interview one Delta guy, so he got a bit of a jaded view on the whole mission.

RLTW

[Caster]

Hi, I'm new to this board so I just wanna say hi. I read Blackhawk Down 4 times now and I love every bit of it. I am upset about some of the Ranger bashing there was because when I grow up (I'm currently 14) I want to be a Ranger and Green Beret and Delta Operative. I also, I have read Rainbow 6 2 times and I love MOST of it but have you guys seen the amount of times Clancy talks trash about airborne? That REALLY upset me because I'VE probably rucked harder than he has. here's an example,
"Airborne Rangers jump from planes, they don't have no god-damn brains," and more Airborne bashing.
I think that ANY armed forces member, ESPECIALLY THOSE of Special Operations community deserve the utmost respect no matter what, some cercumstances may differ. Thanks for listening.

Caster OUT

PS: TASKFORCERANGER, were you REALLY a part of TFRanger?

[This message has been edited by Caster (edited 10-28-1999).]

[Snake]

TFRM,
good to see you back! As to the book, yeah there was a bit of a skewed attitude towards the Rangers. But it comes from the civvie idea of:
"If SFOD-D are the best commandos in the Army, then im *must* have been the Rangers who screwed the pooch".
Not true. That whole *situation* was screwed up. However, this is backseat driving on my part. I was still in friggin High School when that went on.
The important thing is, we must not let that happen again.
Should have an FM for SECDEFS, written by Vets, entitled: "How *not* to Fuck us up".


Snake II (on soapbox....PLF...off.)
25th ID(L)

[Michael Robertson Moore]

Well, to be fair to Mark Bowden, it should be said that his method is to let his interviewees' voices be heard in the text, largely unedited, without benefit of quotation marks (which would only clutter a narrative based 90+ percent on interviews.) So when you read "those dumb-ass Rangers," or whatever, you can be fairly certain that it's "Paul Howe" and not Bowden speaking. It's fairly clear to me, both from reading the book and from a brief chat with Mark Bowden, that he has nothing but respect for Rangers. Even if he believes (not without reason, from what I hear) that the men in Delta are a superior breed.

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

Yes I was w/ B3/75 on that "great" day.

In defense of Mark. he is a really great guy, and did more than any other author would have done fore th TF (and thats get our story out). Sure the book may hurt some people's feelings, but such is the nature of the beast. Overall it is a great book, and deserves lots of credit.

[Caster]

Dear TFRmember,
I know you get a lot of this but I just wanted to tell ya something. I'm honored to have people like you in our armed services. The thought that you risked your life for fighting for peace is just MIND BLOWING. I am glad that I have people like you to look up too as I near my goal of becomming a Ranger.

"Give me your blessing, and I'll give you the last beat of my hear." David and Goliath

Caster

[Tracy]

I didn't like Bowden's book at all. It was biased towards Delta. He's a writer and should know better than that. The assault went as planned, it was the support element that caught the "Golden BB"; and it was the security elements that tried to save them.

What about 2-14 Infantry? They mounted TWO relief efforts to get to TF Ranger. They got hammered on the first attempt, regrouped, went in again and made the link-up.

IMHO, it was the 11Bs and 11Cs in both units that saved the day. It was great day to see what soldiering is all about.

Tracy-Paul **********
UNOSOM SOCCE
Mogadishu, Somalia 92-93

[Oper8or]

Some things to ponder I will neither confirm or deny:

Did most (but not all) of the Delta info come from one source?

Did that one source (who was on the ground) have Ranger BN/REGT experience?

Could there be a past experience that initiated this animosity within this individual that could have been compounded with certain experiences during actions in Somalia? Especially with an already "jaded" view?

Remember that the media and publications are geared around certain personal viewpoints. Especially when sources are few and far between.

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

In reply to "If the mission was sucessful"...it was, we achieved our mission plan, capturing Adid would have been just an added bonus. We went in that day to get his Lieutenants, and we did that.

As far as the book being biased, I think that we already addressed that portion. Mark DID an OUTSTANDING job, and is not biased in his own opinions at all, trust me, I know the man. Hell when he went to the Playboy mansion he invited Clay Othic and Dan Schilling, NOT Paul Howe. Mark wanted to book out that told our story, and he did, he covered all aspects, AND if you read the end, Mark puts a note that the book may have opinions.

He also has a lot of great foot notes that answer questions you may have wondered about. Its a fair written work. And I praise it.

RLTW

"Its the scroll not the tab"

[Mephiston]

Thank you TFRanger for replying to the "If the mission was succseful" That kinda pissed me off even though I've only been a Ranger for a little over a week. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif
I saw your boot in the Infantry Museum, nice!

Mephiston

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

So you now graduated RIP, got the felt and scroll? Congratulations man, what batt? Im guessing 3d if you saw my boot. E-mail me sometime, Id like to catch up.

WLDWEASLE7@aol.com

RLTW
"Its the scroll not the tab"

[RGV4]

Meph!
Congratulations man!
I remember reading your posts way back this summer before you shipped. Must be the greatest feeling in the world getting through all that and getting assigned to a Batt. Just don't forget about Hooah School on down the road. I ship 01Feb so let me know what to look out for.

I'm sure Old SFer would be proud too if anyone could find him...

[Mike]

from http://www.cgsc.army.mil/MilRev/English/JulAug99/grukp.htm
(footnote n. 12 at the bottom of the article)

"A prime example is the US mission in Mogadishu, Somalia, which began feeding a starving populace and then switched to taking an active side in a civil war. A US Army ranger battalion was sent into the United Nations area with a purely combat mission. In an unprecedented development, after President Clinton's emissary (former President Carter) had met with Aideed, the US State Department was engaged in diplomatic overtures with Aideed at the same time that the rangers were sent to capture him. A complicated coalition and US chain of command further contributed to the ensuing debacle."

[Polypro]

Mephiston, you newbie-cherry:-) Congrats on making it! When you coming to Hooah-School? I'll be waittttttingggg....

Polypro

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

Hey Poly...why not pay a visit to the kid we helped in the hours leading up to his OSUT date? Buy him a beer for me...of course Ill never give you the money for it..but buy it for him and say its form me anyway!

RLTW

[Mephiston]

I'll take that beer!
These details are getting real fun if you know what I mean.
You can pay me a visit if you want I'm sure
I'll be there getting smoked or something.
I'm with C co. 1st plt 3rd sqd 3/75.

Mephiston

"I wish I could tell the spc4 mafia the it
really is the scroll and not the tab" http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif
RLTW

[Oper8or]

Mephiston,

Do they still call C co. "The Rock"? I was with 3rd PLT C co. from the BN inception in 84' to 1987. At the time it was in the compound Ranger school currently occupies.
Allot has changed since then.

[Polypro]

Ahh, old C Co...My Co.!...The old "Criminal Rock"! Gotta love it. I'm having a tear just thinking about it. Hey Oper8, I'm right back at the old compound as we type. Back in the "Charlie Hilton", same room!(When did you leave C Co.? Blantz, Hislop, Hawk, Fruin, Thoma, Stroud, Searles,Hoover, Stone, Fitch...) The more things change...... Meph, I'll be in your AO on monday, just look for the only MF'r with the audacity to wear RTB PT's to 3/75!:-) I'll buy you a beer on TFR's tab when you get yours. And oh, you WILL pay Sir!:-)

Polypro

[Oper8or]

Polypro,

Hmmm... Who could you be?...
I remember all those guys well. I myself roomed with Purinton in the far left room. Right next to Stroud and Fruin. Went to RRD with Hoover from 87 to 89. Then to RTB from 89 to 91.

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

Polypro IS polypro...

Poly, how the hell can I afford to buy the beer..Im a poor poor man...

I can't wait to get together w/ you guys soon.

RLTW

[Polypro]

TFR, You have the #, just let us know. I have a pay chart by the way, so lay off the "poor" part. Old man works though:-) (Yeah, listen to me!) Oper8, Think C Wpns. Budsen, Johnson, Novak, Garretson, Beyers, Doc Crocker, Adams, Grassecchi "Grass". Achiavatti was just leaving. Bn. was at Hunter for Castle Hellion-Uganda I think. I had the same 86'VFR that Blantz had. Russ Leach, and Schaefer went to Regimental Recon (Gotta use the "Old School" term).

When your taint is wet, you're WET!

Polypro

[LRSC Grunt]

This is why I wish I joined a Ranger Bat. when I was active. Damn... you can feel their comraderie just by reading their posts.

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

Wanna hear the real kicker LRCS..Polypro and I have never met face to face...and I love him already..I love him enough to let him buy me beer next time Im in his AO. RIGHT POLYPRO!? notice its not PolyPOOR

RLTW

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

Wanna hear the real kicker LRCS..Polypro and I have never met face to face...and I love him already..I love him enough to let him buy me beer next time Im in his AO. RIGHT POLYPRO!? notice its not PolyPOOR

RLTW

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

Sorry about the double post..computer reloaded twice...crazy juju on this thing.

RLTW

[Polypro]

Yeah, I'll buy...until Booger shows up, then we'll drain his wallet all night. I keep hearing about these Buckhead trips from long ago...sounds interesting. Grunt, I've said it many times, the 75th is a great community. I was out for 9 years but am currently serving with at least 10-15 guys I was with in the 80's(Some who were pvt's that now outrank me:-)), not to mention the guys who've gotten out that stay in touch via the web. Oh yeah, and the one's I havn't met EXCEPT online like TFR(Back at ya'). Go to the 75th Ranger Regiment web site and go to the links page. Click on "Ranger Stories From Hell". I laughed my ass off. It's a good look at the comradrie and lifestyle in the Regt.

Polypro

[LRSC Grunt]

I seen the site RANGER STORIES FROM HELL. I laughed my ass off too.

[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 11-21-1999).]

[Dark Helmet]

As an esteemed comrade of our good Ranger freind Polypro in Ranger class 13-87 (I was 1st Batt, he was 3rd - we both were tabbed 22OCT87), I can personally attest to the fact that he fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down (nice Private Ryan quote for me, eh?). Hey Poly, when you gonna call me? Heard you made E5 (again)? Can it be?

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

Poly ain't ugly...he looks like every Ranger...boy..that doesnt help us now that I think aobut it...oh well Poly, I tried.

RLTW

See Tack, atleast I can look like IM being nice when I inform on Poly's profile

[Polypro]

I am not ugly, never was! Tack, I'm at Pull-Dick as I type (Kind of, I got a whole 2 hrs off!)22Dec the leg hell ends. Call you for x-mas. Out.

Polypro