MOUT Training

[Dominique]

Quick question to any current Ranger oout there.

Has the Regiment placed more of an emphisis on MOUT training since the events in Somalia.

How about the Army in general?

I know that for a while, there was a big push in my NG divison for more training, but then it tapered off.

[LRSC Grunt]

I wasnt in a Ranger Bat. but I can speak on behalf of the 101rst Abn. About half of our training is driven towards MOUT and EBCR(Enter Building Clear Room).

[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 11-18-1999).]

[rakkasan187]

yo LRSC Grunt

what unit were you in at campbell....you can probably guess where i was....when did you get out...

take care

rakkasan

[LRSC Grunt]

Hooaah...I was in 2/502nd Inf. I was there from July 96 to March 99.

[Oper8or]

Dominique,

The Regt. has been in high gear when it comes to MOUT-CQB/CQC since Somalia. A lot of lessons learned and training doctrine changes were made after October 3/4, 1993. Especially with increased responsibilities within the specops community.

[Brandon]

Glad you SOCOM guys are getting all of the good training http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif
I am a (now) National Guard MP. MOUT is a big task for us. Total MOUT training time for me: 1 day in AIT. 1 day in BNCOC. Don't get me wrong, the training was excellent. In the years between sessions, I could see a real progression in tactics and methods. The problem is that the frequency and SOME of the realism isn't there. MP school has an excellent facility but there are no windows or doorlocks. Kinda poses a problem in the real world huh? You guys in the 75th carry a sledge hammer and a holligan tool with you or what?

Brandon

[LRSC Grunt]

Ive been to their in house MOUT site(McKenna Experimental MOUT Site at Ft. Benning). It is so unbelievably realistic. The doors have locks, the windows are plexiglass, they have real furniture, concrete roads, and realistic looking buildings. But even more supprising the whole entire MOUT site is a great big computer. They have digital cameras in each of the rooms, hallways, and outside walls. They have sensors placed evenly throughout the site that sences their special vests to give the movement, direction, and location of both them and OPFOR so they can digitally recreat the events during AARs. They also have paint filled subunition rounds(not to be mistaken with MILES or paintballs...they are loud and HURT) available and when hit the vest will somehow sense the impact of the round and send a message to the computer sensors that the person is down. The whole place is controlled by a supercomputer with a shit load of TVs inside a building(it looked like Mission Control at NASA), outside the MOUT site. Where they can conduct AARs and accuratly recreat the entire battle in virtual reality with digital videos in conjuntion with computer generated images from the vest sensors. I was amazed!!! When we were there the Infantry school allowed us to "play" with all kinds of fun shit like sledge hammers, 5 different kinds of hooligan tools, hydrolic prying door busters, and other shit that will blow your mind. We were fortunate to be one of the first to experiment with an "Isreali Door Buster". A door breaching shaped charge that is shot from the muzzle of an M4 or M16. It looks like a big yard dart. We tried it on wood door, where it blew a hole 3 feet wide, and a metal door. The metal door was facing hinges outside and when it hit, the door was blown through the door jam inside the building and it dented it like a cereal bowl. When we were there I also found some intresting munitions lying around like plexiglass paintball rounds filled with powdered lead and water(im guessing its for knocking people down humanely), rubber bullets, and rubber shotgun rounds.

Check out these URLs:
http://www.ai.sri.com/~fua/rcvw/Benning.html
http://www.metavr.com/mout-pvd.html
http://www.metavr.com/mout-complete.html
http://www.metavr.com/USArmySoldierSystemsCommand.html



[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 11-24-1999).]

[Dominique]

The only ones I've been to are MOUT city on Ft. Pickett, The VERY small MOUT training area on Ft. A.P. Hill, and the tire house at NSGA North West (at very close range the paint balls they use are no joke either).

Has anyone seen the new site at Ft. Knox?

[Brandon]

Those paintball rounds are called Simunitions and you are right, they are no joke. The company makes barrels or conversion kits for damn near everything. That site sounds awesome. I hear that the one at JRTC/ Ft. Polk is supposed to be state of the art also. Ft McClellan has a pretty high speed one. It is fairly new but has ZERO technical gadgets that you spoke of. Maybe DA/DOD has seen the wrighting on the wall and realize that most of the missions of the 21st century are going to be in urban areas. NEW MOUT SITES FOR EVERYONE! Comments?

Brandon

[Warrior]

To answer your question about the simunition. Was the lead at the tip in the actual "paintball" end? If so those are sometimes shot by instructors. When they hit metal they produce a little shower of sparks. Movies use them as well to simulate bullets hitting something. They are just supposed to add realism. If that is wasn't what you were talking about then it was probably just plain simunition. Hope this helps

[LRSC Grunt]

I know what simunition rounds are, its what I mistakenly called "submunitions"on my earlier post. They are plastic projectiles filled with colored marking paste.

http://www.simunitions.com


The "paintball" rounds I found lying around were the exact same size as a standard paintball(.68 cal). They were plexiglass balls filled with powdered lead and water(pretty heavy and very solid). Im guessing its used as humane and silent means of disabling a person by knocking them on their ass. Ive been playing paintball for 7 years(i dont play anymore, too expensive) and I have been a Senior Field Ref for a year at Survival Games of Texas. Ive seen what ice frozen paintballs from a "hot" gun can do, I can only imagine what a heavy and solid projectile like this will do to a person. It would knock them on their ass, or if hit in the head it might even kill. If its not a "paintball" gun round then Im guessing its a shotgun projectile, which would probably do even worse damage.

Ive been to the MOUT Site at Ft. Polk. Yes its very high speed but unlike the one at Benning, its set up for live fire exercises only. It doesnt have all the computer shit that Mckenna has either. Its was also very realistic but in a different way. The entire site is run by OCs(observers/controllers) who are right out of the Ranger Reg. My chain of command werent the ones setting up the exercise, the OCs were. All they gave us was a vague discription of the buildings, a vague discription of the enemy situation, all the equiptment we asked for, an isolated area(15 miles from the MOUT site)and 3 days for mission planning, preparation, and rehearsals. We didnt have a clue on the exact locations of the buildings, how far apart they were from each other, or what they looked like inside. We werent allowed to see the MOUT site nor were we even allowed to do a blank fire at the MOUT site before the live fire. It was only one iteration..with LIVE ROUNDS, so we were doing this with blind faith. This was the first time we did a live fire without a dryfire and blankfire. For safety reasons they issued us "RBA" Ranger Body Armor, a heavy as fuck triple layered flak vest with two 3 inch thick ceramic plates, one on front one on back(almost 40 Lbs!). They told us almost nothing can penitrate it, one OC was showing off a bullet hole in his RBA from when a cherry ass private from another unit shot him in the back accidentally during the exercise. It stoped the round at point blank range dead in its tracks. We were also issued MILES harnesses because of two reasons, one the targets accually shoot at you with MILES lasers, and two if the OCs found anyone unsafe they kill them with the "god gun". We were supposed to have air assaulted in with live rounds issued to the door gunners too but it was a foggy Luisiana morning(1:00am) so the birds were called off and we "truck assaulted" on the objective(LOL). As we crept up to breach the wire, we could faintly hear dogs barking, people talking, music, cows, ect... It sounded like a real village. As we breached the obsticle and moved in on the village the targets(manaqins) started shooting at us, they had car blinkers to simulate muzzle flash and pnumatic guns behind them to simulate the sound. There were both civilian non-combatants and enemy combatants within the village. The OCs had civilain contractors with them filming us with night vision lenses so we could see our mistakes after the battle. It was realistic in a way because it induced total sensory overload. I swear to god it felt like a real fire fight. The OCs who run the range know what the fuck they were doing. They know that most mistakes are made in the planning, rehersal, and prep phase and not during the accual battle,and they know that the soldiers first initial reactions are what saves lives. We had to clear all buildings in the dark(including a church) and in the process we found an underground tunnel. Luckely we had a contingency plan for "Tunnel Rats" in our planning phase. When we finished the mission and the AAR(after action review) the OCs rated our platoon as being one of the top 5 platoons out of the some 25 who have already done the exercise.

101rst Abn hooah.




[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 11-25-1999).]

[Warrior]

LRSC Grunt...You are a man after my own heart http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif Worked at Challenge Park Memphis(well it was also the Congo)for over 6 years. Head Ref and Field Manager. You are very right the game is very expensive. That is where I saw the round you are talking about. I believe they are used to add realism. When they impact with a wall or something like that, they kinda explode. This make a puff of smoke and a some sparks. That is what the round sounds like to me...

[Kolt]

I was also at the MOUNT complex at Ft. Polk, last Sept. We were there training with the 101st. Not your unit I guess LRSC Grunt, because our senario was totally different. I'm in 1/8 INF(M) out of Carson. Anyway we went in with lightfighters, Brads, and Abrams. Our engagement was all MILES, no live fire. Different strokes for different folks training wise. Our senario was a continuing 12 day battle against the OPFOR and we had managed to capture a few EPOWs before we hit Shougart Gorden (spelling?) so we had a general SITREP of what we would encounter as well as a caputred map showing all of the obstacles and such. It was definitely and experience though. Lots of good special effects, fires, etc. Made it really realistic except for using tank rounds on the buildings. The OCs gave out task force kills on 2 or 3 rooms of a particular floor, in reality a 105 is going to take out the whole floor, if the the ones above and below it, but such is the way the 'training' game is played.

[LRSC Grunt]

This was back in '97 when I was there. We were doployed a week before our entire battalion and we did our live fire before we were in the "box". There are MOUT villages in the "box" itself, but they are for the force on force training provided by the JRTC OpFor. This was probably where you did your training.


[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 11-25-1999).]

[recce_o]

No one answered the question posed earlier. What are the facilities and instructors like at Ft. Knox?

[recce_o]

No one answered the question posed earlier: what are the facilities and instructors like at Ft Knox?