Barriers to Minority Participation in SOF

[Mike]

Barriers to Minority Participation in Special Operations Forces http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1042/

PDF required

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

Wow...

RLTW

[eddie]

Lowering of STANDARDS is not the answer, you put lives at risk..

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

I am not a racist..but here it is.

I am sorry that minorities do not have the proper facilities while growing up to be able to pass such things as the swim quals. I can say for a fact though that many minorities participate in both SFAS, Ranger school, and some are also in the Ranger RGT. Sure not as many as people would like to see are in these units, but then you must look at what race makes up the largest porition of the army...white people.


If I were a soldier in a country in which MOST of its soldiers were, say black, then I can promise you that hardly any whites would be in their SPECOPS unit, not becuase of racisim or becuase the other race cannot do the job, but just by simple math it is impossible to have a large percentage of the minority color in that unit...that is why it is a minority.

You must also look at the units in the first place, I will use a Ranger bn as my example. The Ranger Bns do a lot in the field, massive ammounts of time spent in muddy areas, cold or extreme heat, wet, etc etc. Things that a person who has spent their whole life in the city (either white or black) do not see as being "for them", it is not racisim or that the standards set are unfair for minorities, becaue they can do it just as well, it a lot of times comes out of a desire.

RLTW

[pn]

I flipped through that book at the library last semester. These fucking dip-dunks actually have the nerve to question whether those mean 'ol SOF instructors are being unnecessarily hard on those poor wannabes(hello Beavis, how the hell would you know what's necessary?).

There is an incredible amount of sloppy thinking and ad hoc reasoning in that report. I don't know if this sort of thing is common in the social sciences, but I can say that shit like that would never, *ever* make it into a physical science journal.

-pn

[nightinsertion]

Just as posted above, I do not think lowering the standard will do anything except weaken an already below ready military and I'm a minority.
I lived in the city all my life, never grew up around a pool and qualified and went through special operations training(the wettest one!!) It is all about desire. As far as instructors being unfairly hard, I found most of my instructors liked me, not because I was special, but because I put out 110%
But on the other hand it would not hurt to show a couple of minorities that are in. it's just a natural tendency to be able to relate more when you see other faces like yours and thats not racist.Unless you grew up around people different than you.
But just as TFRanger said black or white, if you're not into it then you're not into it. I have friends of both races and both said I was NUTS! for going and doing what I did haha

[This message has been edited by nightinsertion (edited 01-22-2000).]

[Fred]

pn, as a social science graduate student, I have deduced that social science=ad hoc reasoning. As a caveat, I was assigned to this graduate program thru the military ( no choice really).

[abn_rngrr]

Don't kid yourself pn. Plenty of crap gets passed off as science in the physical sciences as well.

[Dark Helmet]

It's not about race. It's about STANDARDS. Either you CAN meet the standard or you CANNOT. There is no place more colorblind than the military. Rhetoric like this turns my stomach.

[pn]

Fred, are you at NPS? What the hell, it beats wiping an admiral's ass for two years..

abn_rgr, I didn't mean to imply that everything in the journals is correct. However, I have *never* read any paper that comes close to this report's level of overall crappiness. Just so you don't think I'm some idiot talking out of his ass, let me just say that I am graduating from UCB with degrees in Physics and Chemistry this May.

-pn

[Snake]

Tack,
dont kid yourself, the Army has some localized racial issues. Case in point: I arrived at Bragg, to join the Eighty-Deuce, and promptly got interviewed by CID, who wanted to know if my tattoo had any connection the the White Dragons. The WD's were the skinhead gang that dominated the 82nd support units. Very few were actually graduates of the Benning School for Boys. But they managed to make a name for themselves on CNN, which resulted in anyone with 'suspicious' markings being tossed out.
That was "Tailhook" for the Airborne.

Snake
25th ID(L)

[nightinsertion]

Now one moment. The military is just like any other place. It is not colorblind at all. It has it's replicas of the civilian world. Even if it is a different society. I would be lying if I said I never encounterd racism in the military. But dropping standards isn't the key to getting acceptance either. That just gives idiots more gasoline for their flame.

It all depends on what you believe in. There are some that believe there is no place for minorities in SpecOps.

But it should not matter. If I can meet the regular standards and accept the same rigors then I should be able to crawl through mud and shoot big guns like everyone else.

[trident86]

Keep in mind that if we lower the standards to bring up the percentage of minorities, we'll also be flooded with a lot of white guys we don't want for exactly the same reason.

Standards are standards. They ask us to do things most people would not normally do, so you have to expect us to be different than our civilian counterparts. I thought we'd seen the last of "affirmative action".

Just pass the fucking course, like the rest of us!

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

Tack is correct,

No place is more colorblind than the military...

Not because the army does not have skin heads or black panthers (because sadly it does), but because the army is the ONLY institution in this country that will not make concessions for a neo-nazi, or the black men who want to beat up the white kid from Alabama because he is a stereo-type.

Unlike some Fortune 500 companies that only have minorities in upper levels because they have to met a quota, the military has minorities in upper positions becuase they can DO THE JOB...so YES THE MILITARY IS COLORBLIND...the people in it may not be...but the unit as a whole is. So I would say Tack is correct, perhaps mild re-wording is all it would need.

RLTW

[Snake]

All,
whoops! I -meant- to inferr that: While the ARMY is color-blind, Individual Soldiers can be pricks. But the Army usually takes care of em when they slip up...

Snake
25th ID(L)

[Dark Helmet]

At first I thought my "colorblind" statement had been misinterpreted.....after reviewing it, I realize I could have been more clear. Allow me:

"No place is completely racially colorblind, but the military is, by far, the closest American institution to it."

This is what I am saying:

Has anyone seen a guy NOT make E5 because he was black? Has anyone seen a native American fail out of Ranger school because his last name was Running Black Bear? Ever known a guy to get a no-go on an EIB terrain feature identification station because his grandparents were Chinese? Find me someone that can say yes and I'll show you someone making excuses.

Standards are standards, period. For EVERYONE.

Affirmative action sucks; true equal rights advocates (not minority noisemakers) will tell you that affirmative action is insulting to the very classes of society it seeks to protect.

I personally want to be judged on my merit and abilities alone.

[Ursula]

While the Rand report mentioned focuses on racial minorities, the same principles could apply to the lack of women in SOF. For example, one could argue that girls don't have ample opportunities for athletic training and competition when they're young and that we're not encouraged to study math and science, all of which could explain why there aren't scores of women lining up wanting to join SOF. Do I expect the military to put a soldier in each class to make sure all girls are encouraged to study math and play sports? Hell no.

In this thread I've heard people say pass the test like the rest of us, standards are standards, etc. And I agree. If the US military wants to increase its numbers, it need to keep the standards where they're at for everyone's sake and they need to start paying folks what they're worth instead of keeping a large part of its force at poverty level. Take the millions or billions of dollars for swimming pools for the needy and affirmative action programs and provide wages families can live on.

After that, open combat arms positions to women, but don't expect us to do pushups or get dirt on our clothes. I'm sure we could help the Army bolster its enlistment numbers that way. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

-U

[nightinsertion]

Hey folks, come on. Now you guys know me and I agree with everyone with the lowering of standards. As I said, I met the standards just fine. But this has nothing to do with affirmative action, which in some work places is necessary(which by the way does not just work in favor of blacks. It works for females, the elderly, war vets, disabled americans etc.) Lets not forget that. True affirmative action does not lower standards. It merely makes sure that all applicants, black, white, female, elderly, veterans, disabled are considered for the same positions equally. It is the individual companies who feel guilty and set quotas.

But I do love the military and don't think that it should be brought to the same standards as the civilian world. Like I said, I made it into the service and SpecOps training cause I put out 110% not cause someone wanted to give it to me.

[abn_rngrr]

True affirmative action may not lower standards, but in almost all practice it does. When the government comes in the argument goes as follows: "All people are equal in every way, therefore if you don't have the following percentages of (fill in the blank with the group of your choice), it must be because you're prejudiced against them." Quota systems are then implemented to protect against such action. There are set asides in many government grant and contract awarding programs as well, not just in companies. No effort is made to determine if the pool of applicants is actually "equal" or not. The RAND report can be commended for at least looking at the pool of eligible applicants. A nice addition to the report would've been to hear from those minorities already in the spec ops community what they think.

In the University of California system affirmative action in favor of some minority groups hurt Asians. As a matter of fact, by all accounts, Asians, not whites, served to benefit the most from the abolishment of quota systems. There goes the argument that affirmative action is about equality for all.

When the Republicans went after welfare reform the out cry was that it was racist, that more white people were on welfare that minorities. The reforms went through anyway (I make no judgement on how just or efficacious they were). Now, when was the last time you heard of an affirmative action program for these disadvantaged whites? Instead we have preferential treatment for minorities coming from the same upper middle class neighborhoods as their white peers. There again goes the equality for all argument.

In my time of service ('79-'88) I saw racism, but it was rare. When I did see it, it was as likely to come from a minority as to be directed toward a minority. I've served under black officers. One is one of the best officers I've ever served with, the other did nothing but consume oxygen and other resources for no apparent reason. If the latter guy failed to get promoted is it because of racism? If the former was promoted is it because of quotas? No, in both cases it's because the military remains the most egalitarian of any of societies institutions.

When women were first allowed into the fire fighting profession the rally cry was "If they can meet the standards they should be permitted to do the job." Great. Then, when women started to fail in droves, we got, ta da, a lowering of standards in some fire departments. This then is the sort of thing the spec ops community fears most when such subjects as those being addressed here arise. The standards are set to ensure success in combat, NOT to bar any particular racial group from service. A lowering of standards to ensure "parity" only ends up being devisive and reenforcing the stereotypes that were supposed to be removed.

Affirmative action in concept is a wonderful thing, but in practice it is just another political tool to achieve another political agenda and, as such, has no place whatsoever in the specops community.

[This message has been edited by abn_rngr (edited 01-25-2000).]

[This message has been edited by abn_rngr (edited 01-25-2000).]

[trident86]

Excellent points.

[pn]

Most AA advocates don't even pretend to believe in standards. Take the example of college admissions: everytime you cite some statistic(involving things like SAT scores and AP tests), they come up with some excuse to explain the poor performance of underrepresented moniorities(as a group).
The SAT is racist(nevermind the fact that Asians and foreigners do fine).
Minorities, who are poorer than whites on average, don't get sufficient preparation because they go to crappy high schools(which conflicts with the fact that inner-city asians perform significantly better than their peers).
Fact is, AA advocates won't be happy until racial percentages are even across the board, which is stupid because we are *not* all the same.
I think the problem is with the family. When I compare my(asian) parents' involvement in my school affairs with that of my peers, it's no surprise to me that I came out of high school as a hot-shit college candidate. Maybe when people stop fucking crying about injustice and start hitting the books, we'll start seeing some change.

-pn

[Dark Helmet]

I was in 1/75 for three plus years and since then have worked for four companies; two private and two NYSE public firms. I have an advanced finance degree and am currently a "middle manager" for a large bank.

Two situations, both experienced by me:

(addressing a superior):
"We have a dirtbag on our team. He is dragging the group's performance down. Retraining has proven futile. What should I do?"

(Ranger BN answer) "Take him out and smoke him like a cheap Cuban cigar. Make his life miserable so he whines uncontrollably and curls up into a wimpering little pathetic ball. He'll quit because he is a toad."

(civilian answer) "Unless this is a white male between the ages of 28 and 35, with no physical disabilities, unquestionably Protestant, dresses normally with no exposed body jewelry and a near-normal haircut; you have to put up with him. If you fire him, we will get sued for discrimination and probably lose, otherwise, regardless of how much of a non-performer he is. It will be expensive."

True stories, both. The latter conversation is a verbatim and candid discussion with our lawyers last year concerning a dirtbag I was trying to purge at the time.

Give me Ranger BN Justice any day of the week.

[nightinsertion]

I got a little scenario for you.

A black male walks into an office building dressed conservatively in a shirt and tie. He walks in with a resume full of experience in the field. He is told that they will call him in a couple of days.
Unknowingly, his buddy, who is white walks in for the same position an hour later. With no experience, and interviewed by the same person, gets hired on the spot.
A week goes by. The first guy doesn't hear a reply. The two friends go out for a beer. After discussing their week, they realize what has happened. They go back and ask, when confronted, the employer has no answer. True story, and you're reading the posts of the first guy.
You tell me what happened.
I'm not the one to go and scream racism just cause I don't get what I want. I loathe those type of people but whats out there is out there. they wouldn't have been a need if a serious problem wasn't noticed.
As far as standardized tests are concerned, I dont know from all that, I did better than average on them. What I do know is if we're talking about minorities, look at the high school stats, when u take a inner city school as opposed to the stats of a school in Beijing or somewhere else. Educational system is entirely different, graduation numbers are higher, math scores are higher. Theres a difference somewhere.
Please dont look at the extremist who believe that they deserve special treatment and think everyone is out to get them, a lot of good intentions are destroyed by politics and agendas.
Like I said in earlier posts, the civilian world is filled with people who think the military should conform to what they think it should be, most of those same people think operators are night terrorists and murderers. Lets get off of the color thing
its just another example
that we all have a long way to go in this world.
But like I said I dont give a damn about your color, their color, or anyones, my brother is the one covering my ass in that trench.

[LOCHNESS2]

If you don't care about color than why tell the story. We all know that their is racism out there. My family is pure 100% Irish. We don't dwell on the past, we look towards the future. We all hope that one day their will be no racism in the civilian world or the military, but their will most probably be. There was none (that I know of) in my team. It was comprised of (decendents of): Polish, Irish, Republic of Congo, Italy, and Germany. If that is not a diversivied group of people than I do not know what is.
LOCHNESS OUT

[nightinsertion]

I told the story just to show a point that it's a horrible thing. But no I dont care about color. I'd be an idiot. I'm black but my grandmother's parents are from Ireland themselves. A lot of my friends are of all races.
and in my time in, I saw racism in the navy, But nowhere in BUD/S did I see any. They didn't care. SpecOps is a great place.

[This message has been edited by nightinsertion (edited 01-26-2000).]

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

Well, if you decide to get techincal..are we a communist country?
No we sure are not...so then tell me.

And lets reverse roles here.

A black man has been working his ass off for the past 20 years in construction..started as a peon and now owns his own million dollar contracting company. Well he is looking for a foreman, gets two applicants..a white guy with a good resume, and a black man with no resume.

Sure perhaps the the white guy deserves the job BUT WHO THE HELL has the right to tell this black buisness owner who has worked his but off most of this life to own this buisness, that he HAS to hire the white guy because of a quiota system? See, it is not right to be racisit (I am not), but it is also just a horrible to tell a buisness owner who he can and cannot hire/fire...and that is what affirmative action does for the most part.

And remember above I was reversing roles, whites were the minority.

Just some food for thought that if you are paying taxes...getting NO government money what gives them the right to basically run your hiring process?

Correct me if Im wrong, but do you really think the government will give a damn if my buisness goes bankrupt? No..will they give a damn if I don't meet a quota system? you bet.

Is that fair?

RLTW

[9533]

The truth about human beings and the divergence in task performance has been known in the scientific community since 1904: Spearman's "g". You will not hear this in polite society.

I am not going to explain this one....go look it up. Good Day to You All.

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

And good day to you.

RLTW

[nightinsertion]

With that type of thinking,TFRANGER, to hire a person because of their race, is what started all of this, whether you're white or black. That is what causes unneeded anger among people.

Hey look, I'm not on here to argue color, or who's hiring who. this is ridiculous.


I appreciate everyone's input though.


It is not accepted in scientific circles as the main school of thought.
What do you mean by this posting 9533??(yes I read Spearman's theory)

[This message has been edited by nightinsertion (edited 01-27-2000).]

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

I am aware my post has to do w/ hiring a person based on race...but it really has to do more with is affirmative action really fair to use? Which could go another thread, however AA has already come up, so I thought to just pose the school of thinking that I did.

Any thoughts from anyone on it?

RLTW

[LOCHNESS2]

I forget the man's name, but he was a black man in a press conference against affirmative action. He said that it is the worst thing that could be done with his people. He said that telling people that they must accept minorities in their colleges, hire minorities in their business even if they weren't as qualified as others was a disgrace to the black community. He said that all affirmative action was saying was that his people could not move further in the world without help from others.(not an exact quote, but meaning the same). He was very hostile to Louis Fahrakhan(sp?). This was just about 1 month ago so I am waiting to see if Louis has anything to say about it. Take care all.
LOCHNESS OUT

[nightinsertion]

Lowering standards so someone can make it is disrespectful and disgraceful.

Louis Farakhan IS a FUCKING idiot.

[Mike]

LOCHNESS2, you might be talking about the black guy of the University of California Regent Board. I forgot his name something with Ward.
And how are you gonna have affirmative action without a quota system? The Clinton folks are pushing diversity for all federal personnel hirings. So if you notice your command's civilian makeup changing from 5 years ago, whooaaa.

[Lightsapper1]

On the minority opportunity issue:

I can say with certainty that although I have grown up with the social doctrines of the inner city, I have found the US Army to have less racism in it, than the subways of New York City.

Being light skinned hispanic, I fought with whites for being latino, and with blacks for looking white. And, I happen to have friends in both races.

In the military, I have found that "the standard" is the great equalizer. We might be "light green" or "dark green", but, we are all green nevertheless.

Just two months ago, I fired a latino NCO member of my platoon because he did not meet the standards to "be, know, and do" and lead soldiers. Oddly enough, my PSG was agaisnt it (my PSG is white). This is one of the few things we have ever been in complete disagreement about. Also, unlike what some might expect, my "white" PSG is also one of my best friends. So, race (my being latino, and the NCO being latino, or my PSG being white) did not play a part. The standard was the deciding factor.