Reserve Ranger?

[jihad]

Gentleman,

Can anyone tell me whether or not the Ranger have reserve units? Thanks for the help guys. Jihad

[E19]

The are no Ranger units in the USAR or ARNG.
They would be of little to no value.

[PathfinderJr3325]

I remember reading that during the VN war,
Indiana( I think) had a reserve LRRP company.
I believe they either were made Ranger or disbanded. Not sure tho

[jihad]

Thanks for the help, that's what I kinda figured. jihad

[Tracy]

Jihad:

The Reserve Ranger concept was tried in the late '70s. The Puerto Rico National Guard took one of their support companys and re-designated them as 11Bs (Ranger). It flopped.

The term 'Ranger' when referring to a unit in the US Army means a purpose-designed light infantry assault unit. For a Ranger unit to be effective, it must train for assaults 24x7. Otherwise they'll get themselves killed the first time out.

The PR NG unit was game and tried their best; but it wasn't good enough because of the lack time to train. They converted back to a support unit.

[This message has been edited by Tracy (edited 04-19-2000).]

[LRSC Grunt]

There used to be 3 NG Airborne Ranger companys during the 80s. F co 425th in Michigan, G co 143rd in Texas, and one in Puerto Rico(I think?).

I think the Indiana LRRP(in vietnam) is now LRSD for 38th Inf.

[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 04-19-2000).]

[Warrior48]

The G Co. 143rd here in Texas is now an LRS unit.

[Warrior48]

The G Co. 143rd here in Texas is now an LRS unit.

[E19]

The reserve components (USAR & ARNG) are not and never were ment to be rapid deployment forces and therefore do not fit the role of
of the Ranger Rgt.

For those of you who are interested in the lineage and insignia of US Army Special Operations Forces
I would suggest you obtain a copy of "A Consise History of US Army Special Operations Forces" by Geoff Barker. The book can be ordered on the SFA Chapter LX (MacDill AFB, Tampa)website http://www.geocities.com/specialforceslx/q_books_posters.htm


[This message has been edited by E19 (edited 04-21-2000).]

[Mike]

did the reserve co. served in Vietnam?

[E19]

Co D (LRP) 151st Infantry Indiana ARNG was deployed in December of 1968 to the RVN and attached to the 199th Inf. Brigade (Seperate) (Light).

In 69 it was redesignated as Co D (Ranger), 151st Infantry and assigned to II Field Force
Vietnam. When Co D (Ranger), 151st was rotated back to the Indiana ARNG, the assigned regular Army personnel formed the neucleus of the concurrently constituted and activated Co D (Ranger) 75th Infantry.

The source for the above information is Geoff Barker's book.

[WS-G]

At the time I was in the 143d, there were only two NG Ranger Companies, not three: Co. G(Abn/Rgr), 143d Inf(LRRP), TXARNG, and Co. F(Abn/Rgr), 425th Inf(LRRP), MIARNG. Both of these units already possessed a strong background as light infantry going back a number of decades. In the case of G-143 (Houston Light Guard), this tradition included service as part of the 71st and 36th Airborne Brigades during 1968-1980, and previously as part of the vaunted 36th Infantry Division, seeing considerable action as "straight-leg" infantry during both World Wars.

It wasn't so much a lack of training time that did in the company in PR as much as a failure to make the time. The fact that this unit was suddenly and magically tasked with the Long-Range Reconnaissance Patrol (LRRP) mission without benefit of prior history as a Combat Arms unit served only as a self-fulfilling prophecy of doom. Another glaring deficiency of the company in PR which Tracy did not mention was a failure to maintain their equipment to an acceptable standard. Most of their commo equipment, for instance, was completely trashed due to neglect. In their case, I submit that their failure was not due to their "part-time" status, but due to the fact that the particular unit tasked with the LRRP mission had been the wrong choice for the job.

OTOH, the units in TX and MI have been spectacular successes, with the Army's current LRS doctrine having been based almost exclusively upon the SOP's that were developed and refined by these two units back in the early 1980's. The hitherto nonexistent FM 7-93 and Long-Range Surveillance Leader's Course (LRSLC) were developed during this time almost exclusively through the efforts and experience of these two outstanding NG units. Further, during this period, these two companies were the only LRRP assets in the entire US Army.

IAW the original purpose and scope of Roger's Rangers, the LRRP mission is an adjunct of the Ranger mission, thereby making the wearing of the scroll and Black Beret, and the use of the "Ranger" title legitimate. A large reason for the official use of "Ranger" rather than "LRRP" had been because of the "politically incorrect" status in which the term "LRRP" had been held by the post-Vietnam Army establishment. Parenthetically, the politically incorrect images of "search and destroy" evoked in some minds had been one of the prime reasons why the post-'Nam LRRPs/LRSUs were stripped of the Direct Action role.

The "Ranger" title finally fell into disuse by existing LRRP companies during the latter part of the 1980's with the Army's official approval the "Long-Range Surveillance (LRS)" moniker. IMO, this was appropriate due to the inevitable association in the minds of most outsiders between "Ranger" and "75th", especially in view of the fact that the LRSUs of the post-Vietnam era have never at any time had any connection, in any way, shape or form, with the 75th Ranger Regiment. The LRSUs have established their own distinct mission, traditions and identity, and do not need the perceived image of "borrowing" the reputation of the 75th. Not to cast aspersions, guys, but I'm ex-143d, thank you! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

------------------
ex Co. G (-)(Abn/Rgr), 143d INF(LRRP), TXARNG 1981-1985
ex 433MAW (AFRES), 1985-1991
FAA-certificated pilot and Advanced Ground Instructor

[This message has been edited by William M Salter (edited 05-01-2000).]

[baboon]

Mr Salter,
did G-143 ever do any exercises with 21 or 23 SAS when you were there? Gordon Rottman's book on US Army Rangers and Lurps mentions this briefly. As I understand it TA SAS are to a large degree the equivalent of USARNG Larsus.

[WS-G]

baboon asks...
...did G-143 ever do any exercises with 21 or 23 SAS when you were there?
...to which the answer is "yes". I was a participant in Exercise Pirate Bell 84, during which time we trained with 21.SAS (Artists) at... ahem... "various locations" in Wales (including a nice walk across the Brecon Beacons) and southwestern England.

The members of the company who remained in CONUS during that time hosted a contingent of 23.SAS on a similar and simultaneous reciprocal training exercise dubbed Exercise Honey Gift 84 at Eglin AFB, FL.

Later that year, a small number of soldiers from our unit participated in two other, similar, exercises: Exercise Eugenie, with 21er Regiment Dragons of the French Army, and Exercise Jæger, with Jægerkorpset of the Danish Army.

A similar exchange with 21. and 23.SAS occurred again during 1986, about a year after I had left the unit (I'd planned on taking a commission in the Air Force further down the road, and so I elected to transfer to the AF Reserve as a way to get my foot in the door with that service. But... that's another story!).

As I understand it TA SAS are to a large degree the equivalent of USARNG Larsus.
Correct. 22.SAS (the Regular Army regiment) performs all the same types of ops as US Army SF Groups and USN SEAL Teams; the counterterrorist and in extremis CQB missions which most outsiders seem to associate with "the SAS" --- not one Regiment, but three in the UK alone plus supporting SAS Signals Squadrons (think of an SF Signal Company; an LRSC Communications Platoon functions similarly, though on a smaller scale), plus another Regiment each in the Oz and NZ Armies, and until 1980, an SAS Squadron in the Rhodesian Army --- are performed only by a very small number of the more experienced 22.SAS operatives. 21. and 23.SAS, OTOH, are the Territorial Army (TA) side of the house, a reserve component analogous to the Army National Guard. Their mission is more specialized in scope, focussing on reconnaissance and surveillance in an enemy's rear areas with a limited Direct Action (DA) role. In this respect, each of the two TA regiments compares quite well to a battalion-sized version of an LRSU.

While I'm on this subject, Patrols Company of 3.Para (the TA battalion of The Parachute Regiment) also functions in the role of an LRS Company.

Gordon Rottman was our Operations NCO at the time I joined G-143, and had served in 'Nam with 5th SF Group.


------------------
ex Co. G (-)(Abn/Rgr), 143d INF(LRRP), TXARNG 1981-1985
ex 433MAW (AFRES), 1985-1991
FAA-certificated pilot and Advanced Ground Instructor

[This message has been edited by William M Salter (edited 05-03-2000).]

[Mike]

The 4 Sabre Squadrons rotated duties (NATO/BOAR; deployment/training/standby; NI; CRW) annually. Do you mean the CRW wing is a small cadre permanently instead of from the assigned squadrons?
You're right that the SAS is a combination of SF and Delta Force. Would 2 Paras be the equivalent of the Rangers?
Re: C Squadron SAS of Rhodesia, the C was originally from the 22nd SAS when they came back from Malaysia thus A, B, D and G squadrons. Barbara Cole wrote two books (1 pictorial) of the same title, The Elite: the story of the Rhodesian Special Air Service. (Ms. Cole was married is an ex-Rhodesian SAS officer).

[WS-G]

The 4 Sabre Squadrons rotated duties (NATO/BOAR; deployment/training/standby; NI; CRW) annually. Do you mean the CRW wing is a small cadre permanently instead of from the assigned squadrons?
Either way, the best I can tell is that outsiders are intended to be left guessing WRT the Definitive Answer™. As I've only worked with the 21st (Artists), I can't comment on 22.SAS except from whatever "public domain" material I've read. If it tells you anything about their approach to OPSEC, the film of the Prince's Gate op and even their recruiting film This is the SAS require a SECRET clearance with NATO ACCESS prior to viewing (at least they did back in '84 --- not sure whether this is still the case).

And yes, The Parachute Regiment does compare better to the 75th Rangers than to any other American unit.


------------------
ex Co. G (-)(Abn/Rgr), 143d INF(LRRP), TXARNG 1981-1985
ex 433MAW (AFRES), 1985-1991
FAA-certificated pilot and Advanced Ground Instructor

[baboon]

Thanks, William. Mike, as I understand it, the CRW Wing consists of a few instuctors under the command of a major, and is responsible for the training of each squadron as it rotates to CRW duty.They are also responsible for developing counter-terrorist tactics and doctrine.What I think William means is that in each sqn only those men who have served several tours on CRW would form part of the actual assault team. Less experienced members would be in more of a support role. In the event of a hostage situation the CO or 2IC of the regiment would be in charge, issuing orders to the squadron commander on-scene. In the past the 2IC of 22SAS and head of CRW Wing have been the same man. Alistair Morrison (of Mogadishu fame) did both these jobs, Ian Crooke (who led the SAS team who put down the coup in the Gambia in 1981) might have done so too. I don't know if this is still the case.

Why is this role done on rotation? I can only think it is part of the British Army's concept that everyone must be " all singing, all dancing". Infantry battalions (except Gurkhas and Paras) rotate from light to mech, armoured and gunner regiments serve tours in Northern Ireland as infantry, etc. While this does inevitably cause problems it allows greater flexibility.

Re Rhodesian SAS: The Elite is a good book and the only one so far dedicated to the Rhodesian SAS, but it does leave out quite a bit, for example the role played by South African Recces in Rhodesia. Recces formed D Sqn of 1 SAS Regt (as C Sqn became in 1978), they wore Rhodesian uniforms and were ordered to speak only English when in Rhodesia. A, B and C Sqns were made up of Rhodesians and foreign volunteers in that army (mostly British, American and South African). Peter Stiff's new book The Silent War tells this story, it also details how the regular soldiers of 1SAS transferred to the SADF as a unit.
Dr. Richard Wood, the foremost historian of the Zimbabwe/Rhodesia war (and formerly of the Rhodesian Intelligence Corps) was at one time working on a comprehensive history of the Rhodesian SAS but I don't know what has become of this project.

[This message has been edited by baboon (edited 05-05-2000).]

[LRSC Grunt]

and its a damn shame they are trying to disband us.

http://members.aol.com/cog143in/T-patch.GIF http://members.aol.com/cog143in/Crest.GIF



[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 05-13-2000).]

[realpolypro]

William M: Just finished reading a book entitled "Ghost Force" by Ken Connor. He did almost his entire career with 22 SAS. Good read. Check it out.

Polypro

[Biscuits Brown]

Originally posted by William M Salter While I'm on this subject, Patrols Company of 3.Para (the TA battalion of The Parachute Regiment) also functions in the role of an LRS Company.[/B]

3 Para (more fully - 3rd battallion The Parachute Regiment), is and always has been a Regular Army unit.

Currently the only TA Para Bn is 4 Para (V).

Those of you who attended the (late lamented) ILRRPS at Weigarten/Pfulledorf will know that the UK had several 'LRS type' units all in the Territitorial Army.

[Moran 'doc']

There is a infantry LRRP unit NG out of RI that has a lot of folkes from battalion in it but that is all I know. Brian "doc" Moran 3/75

[LRS Guy]

Just as a FYI, H Co 121 Inf. LRSC out of GA had a rather successful tour of duty of Iraq. Heard they did some decent missions though they were more like "Rat Patrol" than traditional LRS doctrine

[Dmitri]

Thats true, I'm trying to get in this unit now, and in the process talked to many people there, they showed me some pictures... They did over 370 missions, everyone got CIB's, some silver stars and several bronze stars, and quite a few purple hearts, as they got ambushed several times and hit mines... Those guys are definately good, and although I didn't meet most of the soldiers, they said they have ex-active duty Rangers, SF, Force Recon, SWAT and other high-speed guys.

[topflite38]

.....

[RangerHAAF]

Being a reserve Ranger is an interesting concept but every current and former member of SOCOM knows that their jobs require constant attention and training that can only be had on active duty.

[Biscuits Brown]

Originally posted by RangerHAAF
Being a reserve Ranger is an interesting concept but every current and former member of SOCOM knows that their jobs require constant attention and training that can only be had on active duty.

Although this prejudice exists in the UK Regular forces as well. I would contend that our experience does not bear it out.

The RM Commandos and (Army) Parachute Regiment which both have roles and standards similar to the Ranger Regiment have had part time reserves for a long time. Sizable elements of these reserves were successfully integrated as individual reinforcements to both organisations in the Gulf.

UKSF also has significant part time reserve units which again have been successfully deployed operationally.

[chipw]

What City does H Co 121 inf. LRSC drill at these days? Back in the early 90's they were split between Cartersville and Summerville. I drove by the old armory in Cartersville about a year ago and they were gone.

[Dmitri]

Company H, 121 drills at Ft. Gillem, Ga now, at the same location as the rest of their 221st MI battalion and the HHQ of GAARNG

[chipw]

Dmitri,
PM inbound

[Seed People]

Originally posted by LRSC Grunt
There used to be 3 NG Airborne Ranger companys during the 80s. F co 425th in Michigan, G co 143rd in Texas, and one in Puerto Rico(I think?).

I think the Indiana LRRP(in vietnam) is now LRSD for 38th Inf.

[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 04-19-2000).]


When I went to airborne school in 85 there was a NG or Reserve guy whoes unit head gear was a black beret. So it most of been a "ranger" unit of some kind, but I can't remember exactly. Those of us who were headed to RIP thought it was kind of funny to see this guy wearing a black beret . I think we asked the school cadre about it.

[IrishEKU]

Well since that paticular quote was dredged up from the archives as was the whole thread, the IA unit in question is in fact the 151st LRSD of the 38th INF Div.


http://images.military.com/UserImages/56276


If they had an FA slot I would be driving to IA.;)

[slondeau]

Originally posted by LRSC Grunt
There used to be 3 NG Airborne Ranger companys during the 80s. F co 425th in Michigan, G co 143rd in Texas, and one in Puerto Rico(I think?).

I think the Indiana LRRP(in vietnam) is now LRSD for 38th Inf.

[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 04-19-2000).]

The 425th is still alive and kicking in Michigan.. I was talking to a recruiter last summer about joining up, and I wanted to see if they had a "Rep-63" type program here. She said no, and told me about the Rangers here, but said they weren't accepting any new infantry recruits at all until after Feb 04.. I'll be calling her back real soon to check the status on that!

Here's their "Official" site.. (I'm pretty sure it is, it's the only one I could find atm)

http://www.425lrs.homestead.com/