weapons discipline

[SOTB]

Is it just me or are others noticing that most of the stills and video show remarkable (well, compared to what I remember) control of weapons and fire. Fingers off the trigger unless on target, not pointing weapons at each other or selves, "hosing" even seems to be less than what I though it would be.

Don't get me wrong. This is entirely meant as a compliment. The stuff I see even so called "normal" grunts doing is squared away. DAMN fine job all.

Andy

[Xdeth]

I expected this somewhat from what I had been seeing and hearing over the past few years. Even eight years ago I was seeing dramatic changes in MOUT and weps training with the line companies, hell, SOTG gave them alot of the same training we got. Alot of it can be done at no additional cost and it all makes sense for the newer, faster, lighter, harder, whatever they call it today Corps. I'm even more amazed at this urban air support concept, I mean, where the hell can you simulate that?

[IRAggie]

I'm even more amazed at this urban air support concept, I mean, where the hell can you simulate that?


The local arcade. That or they've been cross training with Israeli gunship pilots.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Hey man, empty your PM box.

[Xdeth]

Done.

[Gooch]

Apparently the weapons handling skills we implemeted back in the 90's stuck. We did away with the flag safety and some of the other bogus shit during training. I was a part of the working group that redid the rifle marksmanship program around 1994-5 and I always thought that the best thing we did was to incorporate the weapons handling skills that we used with Security FOrces. And to give credit where credit is due we (MCSF) got most of that stuff from Jeff Cooper and Gunsite.

Its cool that somebody else noticed that. I had seen the same thing and smiled more than a few times.

[Gooch]

Hey. Xdeth. WHere did you get that picture you use as part of your handle? Is that from the recent festivities and if so do you have a link to it?

Out

[Xdeth]

Yea it's from one of the early incursions into Nasariya, 8th Marines I believe. I ripped it from CNN, I'll send you the original when I get home.

[SOTB]

When we first started going to all of that trg, I remember 2 "schools" of thought that divided the crowd. Either 1) this trg was too "something" to share it with everyone or 3) all the grunts should be doing it. CQB was where the money was coming from to fund Gunsite, John Shaw, BSR, etc., but the only guys really getting that info were the ones assigned to some "cool" type mission.

My buddy, Chris Armand, and I would often talk about this. Besides the fact that he was basically the best shooter I had known up to that point, he had pretty much taught himself (magazines, an incredible reloading set-up, pretty neat .45 from Wilson, anal retentive attitude towards front sight and trigger control).

When we were out on float I remember always thinking that if we really did the job, those grunts were going to be the heroes of the day -- guarding us as we tried to get back off the site. And back in that day (mid 80's), the infantry companies just were not getting realistic firearms work.

During a chat with some guys at Quantico (who leaned to the secret squirrel school of thinking), I mentioned that the Marines were basically started because of CQB. Or what was the mission of those guys repelling boarders and sharpshooting from the tops of the masts? Course you couldn't say CQB and ship-fighting in the same sentence back then, or you really WOULD have the spooky types all upset.

Bottom line, all of those guys who toughed it out and made SOTG what it is and who got the Quantico firearms guys thinking about saving lives instead of keeping the brass off the grass have my respect -- and a beer when I meet em.

[Gooch]

Actually SOTG didnt have all that much to do with the current status of marksmanship, such that it is.

A little known section, known as CATS (Combat Assault Training Section) at Quantico was formed to be the central CQB/breacher school in 1986/87. We had guys from 2nd Force and myself from the Scout-Sniper Instructor School and a few other guys. We worked with Lee Chewie (Former Old School "Delta" ) from BSR and after making the rounds of the civvy schools/FBI/DOE and some other places we came up with, what was supposed to be the "USMC" way in order to bring East Coast SOTG (who were heavy into NY FBI training) and the West Coast SOTG (who were LAPD SWAT fans) onto the same sheet of music. We helped spin up 1st Force out of the 1st Bn DRP out at the Los FLores ranges in 1987/88 (?) (Its a blur now) and immediatley got shot down by 1st SOTG and the LAPD gang as we were a threat to thier sovereignity. (we also field tested the first MEUSOC .45's that trip)

SO after the CG's of the 1st/2nd MarDivs shot us down, the CATS became three sections, The breacher school, the High Risk Personnel (HRP) course and the Small Arms Weapons Instructor COurse (SAWIC).

SAWIC started out teaching the MCSF instructors at PAC and Lant. SAWIC eventually worked with the then newly formed Marksmanship Doctrine Section (and the Brit Royal Marines by the way) at WTBn Quantico to come up with the new program. We tested it at PISC and San DIego and the rest is history.

Weapons handling skills got a big push from General Gray who got pissed at a slew of AD's and wanted it fixed. (I've got a cool story about Gen Gray, the Commandant of the Soviet Naval Infantry and a certain sniper instructor who will go un-named who snapped in on the Commie Soviet while in full ghillie during the Soviets visit to Quantico in 1988/89 (again its a blur))

SOTG's (especially the 1st SOTG since the LAPD instructors were also Gunsite guru's) were teaching the Jeff Cooper style weapons handling about the same time the MCSF guys (Lant were "Cooper-ites" and Pac were "Chapman-ites") were going with it but it didnt get HQMC attention until SAWIC/WTBn made it doctrine in the FMFM 1-8 in 1995 I think it was....

Boring but true.....:o

[Xdeth]

I concur with Southoftheborder, that same argument persisted while I was involved with those programs too. Most of what Gooch mentioned is before my time so I can only speak about the effort of SOTG in delivering training irregardless of where it originated before that. The number of Ranch hands and Steve Mcqueens was far to few and isolated from the average Marine to have any impact, I would guess that even SOTG handed off the bulk training to some other group that we haven't mentioned or maybe even know about. I do recall they were taking over the MOUT facility training exclusivley maybe that's where all this is delivered now.

Good tales Gooch, write that shit down and co-author a book with someone else involved at the time, timeline it up to present day, I'd buy it.

[EchoFiveMike]

Sounds good, from the grunt's eye view, they DEFINTELY need to kept hammering a more combat oriented, real world attitude to ALL firearms training. From what it sounds like, the iedas are sound, they just need to be executed. Sadly, this is where so many things for the USMC have gone south IMO. Not exactly sure what it is, too many egos, too lazy, too many years of doing thins the same old way?

FWIW, I do some reasonably simple and effective rifle drills here and they(Company CO's & higher) act like I'm doing super secret death commando stuff that isn't cleared for mortals to know. It's actually pretty scary that people think that way. S/F...Ken M

[Gooch]

I did some research into the history of the USMC marksmanship program while a range officer at PISC. I had pretty good access to old Marine Corps Gazettes, the PI base newspaper and museum.

Its actually amazing how many well meaning people (mostly officers) who had great ideas but shitty knowledge on the subject got HSMC to change shit. In the 60's there was a Major Zimmerman out at Stone Bay who developed a combat style KD course that looked pretty good at first then after a few years someone noticed that the basic Marine was losing his skills. So they went screaming back to the KD course as we knew it prior to 1995.

Of course the USMC rifle team got involved and kinda dicked things up in 1994 and eventually my jumping on soap boxes with then Col Cuddy helped me exit the USMC prematurely.

I wanted to keep the KD exaclty the way it was but go to a field firing course similar to the US Army pop up course with more shooting and moving and shooting at movers as a MANDATORY field firing qual in adition to the KD. I wanted every Marine to go through exercises that required them to locate, describe and engage enemy, learn range estimation, etc. Kind of a down sized sniper marksmanship deal with the idea that a sniper is nothing but a rifleman with enhanced skills and equipment.

Actually I got most of my ideas from a series of 1932 Department of War rifle marksmanship manuals that were written back in the day when riflemen were God.

Some of my ideas sifted into the new program and while working with the National Guard I managed to get some of thier people to go through a USMC PMI school at Quantico and they started "Marine-izing" some of thier training at the National Gaurd Marksmanship Training Unit. I was particuraly proud of that little incursion.....

Whew! I'm spent...

[CAP MARINE]

i dont know any of those fancy words you guys are throwing around,about this school and that.i learned my basic gun (rifle)handling firing my m-14 in bootcamp and in the Nam with the 16,m-60,and 79.i carried a gun and badge for years and have always fallen back on my marine corps skills-those have never left me.they wont leave those guys over there now either.think of the future of the military,the generation there now and the skills they will impart on future marines as drill instrs and weapons instrs-amazing.my glock and ar-15 and street survival ive learned through experience,but the corps is where it all started-mentally and physically.

[SOTB]

I owe Gooch an apology for not mentioning the "trailer people" in my earlier rant. I only really got to see those guys in in the end of the 80's and they were just as Gooch is describing. Personally, I think them and SOTG could have been the perfect answer to decloaking all of that secrecy we were placing on CQB (at the time).

If we can spend the time and resources to make a jet and pilot team the best and most sophisticated in the world for their task, then why not do the same for the infantry field? I know, I know -- there are limits to what can be done, but why wouldn't we want our average grunt Marine to be the best and most sophisticated for his task? Not "pretty darn good" mind you, but THE BEST -- period. Imagine EVERY grunt required and able to shoot to the level of a FAST member?

I saw in the SOTG and CATS what I thought was going to be the revolution in how we trained in firearms. Guys like Tom Bullins completely changed my thinking that we weren't serious enough or capable of growing our own crop of instructors. Tom (and not a prior Force Recon or FAST dude either) is THE person who I still use to train my people -- and this was "just" an infantry SSGT in the Marine Corps. If you guys know him, ask him to show you some videos of training Mexicans how to use a firearm (and other stuff). It isn't that hard to get quality shooters. Just requires patience, attention to detail, and plenty of range time.

Maybe I was a little too optimistic (based on some of the replies in this thread), but I thought it was going to be a very different world where the Marine Corps would have such solid instruction that other services would be lining up to come to OUR stuff versus us having to send entire platoons outside for the material (not that I minded having the Corps foot the bill for some serious fun and great knowledge).

Hey, sorry for the longwindedness, but I have been lurking a long time and been wanting to say something.

Andy

[Gooch]

Andy,

Next time you see Tom smack him up side his head for me and tell him Gooch says "Yo".

[Sean0352]

As an instructor of marksmenship it's good to know you guys are here to tell me where things come from. I really appreciate it. Semper Fidelis to all of you for your contributions no matter how big or small they are.


Cpl Sean Kerby
Humble Marksmenship Instructor

[Gooch]

Cpl Kirby,

Are you at Edson range?

[Sean0352]

Yup, I am!

[Gooch]

Who are the range officers out there?

[Sean0352]

WO Bickle, CWO2 Syzmanski, CWO2 Williamson, and CWO2 Brayman. We also sent to new WOs to TBS, one was my former line staff WO Reed

[Xdeth]

Southoftheborder,

Check you private messages using the "user cp" button at the top of the page. :eek: