Tough Topic-Women in Combat Arms

[RangerCharlie]

Can the standards be the same for both?
Is there a need other than equal rights?
Past history shows that other armies have used women to great effect in combat arms, could we?
I think that in some, but not all, instances, women could be used in combat arms (aviation, armor, Navy)
Not trying to open a can of worms. If this has already been covered in great detail, then let it die with this one post.

[SAPPER317]

Here's the can opener...

Even if we don't openly allow women into our career field, remember that the other side makes great use of them. Especially in the UW/terror enviorments.

I saw a book at Borders last night entitled "She Who Dares" and it is supposed to be about the British use of fems in the CRW role in Northern Ireland.

As some of the guys have found out, that good looking girl at the birl may be obtaining info that will be used against you.

They are not warm and cuddly.

SAPPER317

[Mike]

Well, the standards can be both if they were not lowered. If 1-2 women out of 1,000 women can do the same numbers of sit-ups, push-ups and toher PE as the men, then good for them.
A former CIA female agent spend time with a guerrilla group in the Philippines in the 1980s and she got "too close" with the guerilla leader to get all the informations. Sometimes, a woman can do the job which a man cannot.

[Whammer]

By that same token, she can become more of a liability however...

[0802]

It is kind of late, women have been in both the field artillery and the ADA for years now (I understand that FA and ADA are often classified as combat support vice combat arms). The first female BN commander in the FA gave up command last year.

[0802]

It is kind of late, women have been in both the field artillery and the ADA for years now (I understand that FA and ADA are often classified as combat support vice combat arms). The first female BN commander in the FA gave up command last year.

[wolfhound227]

My old platoon sargent's gauge on this subject went like this...

Can the unit benefit by their addition?
Is the unit handicapped by their absense?
If it aint broke dont fix it.

I'll admit up front,I don't have the intellect to see beyond my personal expirience.

[I-OP]

Sapper,

Women have (and maybe still are?) being used in Northern Ireland to combat terrorism. There are two or three books published that were written by women who served with the 14th Inteligence Detachment (the Det) AKA the Army Survelience Unit (although IIRC one of the books has recently been withdrawn for security reasons).

What needs to be understood about "The Det" is that it is NOT as physically demanding a unit as either the SAS or SBS (or the Paras or the Royal Marines for that matter). The selection course revolves around the aptitude for undercover work, fieldcraft (for covert hides), fast-driving, covert photography, pistol/sub-machine gun work, etc. It is probably more akin to specialised police work than to something like the SAS/SBS (not that I am putting the unit down as it was, and I'm sure still is, very effective at what it does).

I have recently finished reading a book written by a former SBS operative who did a two year stint with "The Det". He was on one of the first selection courses that took women and he described how even then, the physical elements of the course were less demanding for the women participants than they were for the males. Of course, that is not to say that the women who actually served in "The Det" were a liability - quite the contray in fact. It is simply that the unit, even though special forces, did not require its members to be as physically able as a solider in a unit such as the SAS/SBS.

One other worthwhile observation from the book is that as soon as women arrived on the selection course, couples were formed and the author does say (IIRC) that he thought this disturbed the concentration of the particpants (fairly obviously!). People were threatended with being returned to thier units, although this didn't stop folk from forming relationships and some -were- thrown off the course. If you haven't been following the thread in Canadian Spec Ops re: women in the forces, then it is worth taking the time to read through it as this subject is covered in some detail.

[cavey]

*note* second place i have posted this

over all most females do not wish to join the ranks of infantry

right now there is talk about having three standards in the army

1st male standards with age groups
2nd female standards with age groups
3rd combat arms standards with no age group
i know this might seem a bit odd or a waste of time but it is fair

as for females in combat arms just think of all the eo complants just waiting to happen ... today none .... future a ton

as for sof supporting units 4th pog and other units have had females for years yet they keep the 9th bn all male teams with the start of a new ranger det.
and sooner or later the 96th ca will also go coed as soon as the 18 boys go back to grps

one problem with making more sof support units all 18's or even all male, lets face it guys not enough of us to fill the slots
when females started going into "all male" units at first people hated the idea but they needed bodies

as for who is tougher and "harder" for combat again we need to face some facts, when all hell brakes out i know i don't give a shit who is fighting next to me as long as they are fighting....

i truly feel we do need to keep as many of our combat units female free, the problems we would have would mostly occur while we are in garrison

pop smoke and draw fire

[dsumner]

I can tell you from experience that women will not work out in a combat unit. I was a member of an ADA BN. for 10 years.

The last three of which we had women assigned to the HHB PAC, supply, and food service sections (no one in a stinger or scout position).

The first time we went to the field it was a mess. The ones that were willing to work could not keep up. We had a female spec4 assigned to guard duty one night. I was on the OPFOR and captured a radio.

While listeing to the radio I heard her ask the Sgt. of the guard could she have a chair to sit down in becuase her legs hurt, and he got her one!

Our commander routinely allowed them to go into the barracks at night while we stayed in the field. Made accomadations for them to bath when we went for days with only enough water to drink.

[Mike]

Women in Combat - Time for a Review
Placating gender-based agendas should have its limits.
By Elaine Donnelly
http://www.legion.org/pubs/current/index.htm

[LRSC Grunt]

"Some other institution can deal with gender wars, but the military must be prepared for real war."

Beautiful!!!!

[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 07-06-2000).]

[wolfhound227]

Right on LRSC!

We might have been able to try this in the
eighties,when the Army had the money to fool
around with.Durring the re-tooling that was
going on in the regular forces at that time
an experamental unit could have been formed.
Now? Forget it!
Not even addressing the physical stuff,the
problem is the political correctness ghestapo
who've developed a draconian-Orwellian set
of protocols to deal with gender issues.
We did'nt have to deal with that crap then.
I'll give you an example...
The Defense Language Institute here on the
penninsula was in the headlines this year
because of sexual-harrassment.The media made
it into a circus.What was realy happening was
one of the guys would ask out one of the girls.(This is the Air Force,by the way)
And when she said no ,he'd say something like
"well you're probably a lesbian anyway".
Now, in the old days this young lady would
just respond by making a point to dry-hump
one of the Marines over the weekend....
But now,off to the CO with complaint in hand.
What a joke.

[Ursula]

I-OP,

Do you have the titles for the books you mentioned? I've already bought and read "She Who Dared" and would like to read the others.

Thanks.
-U

[I-OP]

"First Into Action" is the book written by the SBS operator who served in the Det (author is Duncan Falconer). Other books re: the Det that I've read are "One Up" (or it might be called "One Up With The SAS", can't quite remember) and "The Operators", written by James Rennie. Sorry, I can't remember the name of the author of "One Up" and I can't check my bookshelf 'cos I'm out of the country at the mo - hope this helps though!

[Ursula]

Much thanks, I-OP.

-U