Combatives

[Reconnaissance]

The Rangers use FM 21-150 (Combatives) as their foundation in unarmed combat training. I also heard that they are instructed in techniques and strategies from Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Thai Boxing, Russian Combat Sambo, Judo, and another system (to get a clear picture) is that true? I even heard that they use another Field Manual of hand-to-hand combat is that true?

[tomtom93]

They use the jiu-jitsu I know that for a fact, the rest is left up to them on own from what I know. Alot of different combo's with different people.

[realpolypro]

Jeet-kun-do(Sp)?...Absorb what is useful. You gonna wait til your grappeling to become effective? Long, Med, and Short range, that's the key.

P.S. Typing is a good sobriety test http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

Polypro

[Ranger002]

The foundation for Ranger combatives was developed by SFC Dave Echanis ( oops spelling his last name escapes me at the moment) a legendary SF hand to hand instructor from the 70's. I doubt that grappling other than various takedowns should be taught as the objective of Ranger combative training is to take the guy OUT! as quickly and efficiently as possible. There was talk a short while back about adapting Krav Maga ( a very effective Israili Army fighting system) into Ranger training. This system is very effective and complements bayonet training as well. The Brazilian form of Ju-Jitsu is an ok system but has some glaring weaknesses. If you guys want to study on your own I reccomend Daito Ryu Aiki-Ju Jitsu or Kung Fu Sun Tsu or Shoji Nishio's style of Aikido.Now I am biased a bit but I have been around martial arts for a long time ( I was on the 2nd Batt hand to hand demo team for a while) and live in the midst of the Gracies. Basic Shotokan or Tang Soo Do Karate would also serve you Batt guys as well. The idea is to destroy your opponent very quickly and there is nothing like a well placed strike/kick weapon take away. Still that fine one fingered art ( trigger finger) of pulling the trigger has yet to be matched ha ha ha ha ha ha.
William Hazen B 2/75 Ranger currently Shodan Nishio Ryu Aikido.
If any of you guys are in LA this upcoming week Shoji Nishio will be in the US conducting his annual seminar on Aikido and Iaido and I would love to invite you to observe.

[Ranger002]

Boy did I just stick my foot in my mouth.It's 100 am Cali time and I am watching a show on the learning channel on the Martial Arts. Lo and Behold is some SFC from the 4th RTB telling me that the Rangers are using Gracie Ju-Jitsu I stand corrected!!! I think it is a big mistake but what do I know...Army Combatives are about killing people to see all these young Rangers wrestling Gracie style just makes me sick. Fortunately this same special profiled Krav Maga and real Ju-Jitsu among other styles There is a BIG differance between combat street fighting and Self Defense. I know that the NCO's at RTB are aware of this and I am hoping someone here can enlighten me a little bit.
William Hazen B 2/75 Ranger

[Snake]

I think that the Rangers dropped Brazilian JJ for Sambo, rather recently. Bad mistake, it's still based off of a Sport....


Snake
25th ID(L)

[Snake]

I think that the Rangers dropped Brazilian JJ for Sambo, rather recently. Bad mistake, it's still based off of a Sport....


Snake
25th ID(L)

[Felix]

RangerHazen,
Are you refering to Michael D. Echanis? The Hwarang do stylist? I thought he was a civilian advisor to the JFKSWC H to H program. He died in either the late seventies or early eighties, in a helicopter crash (the exact time frame escapes me). Any info would be interesting, thanx.

[Ranger002]

Felix,
Yes that's the guy. I thought he was an SF SFC perhaps he was an advisor It's been over twenty some odd years. I was a very young pup( in my teens) and was training in Tang Soo Do with Chuck Norris's ( Way before he got into the movies) dojo. Mr. Echanis came out and gave a demo and I was very impressed. He was working with JFKSWC at the time and his Hwrang Do was very popular. I will see what I can dig up.

Guy and Snake,

I love ya all man... You could not be more correct. It bothers me that Rangers are not learning how to kill but grappling instead. At least Russian Sambo is a sleight improvement. Now don't get me wrong I admire and respect Gene La Bell and all the UFC dudes but this is about combat and like Guy mentioned there are no rules except to kill the other guy as quickly as possible. Both of these two systems do not fair well with improvisation. I hope and pray that the RTB seriously checks out Krav Maga or real Ju-Jitsu.
William Hazen B 2/75 Ranger

[JOE-BOO]

SCARS trained...nothing but science and pain....if a fight lasts longer than 6 seconds you are an amatuer...

------------------

IT AIN'T THE
BARK...IT AIN'T THE
GROWL...ITS THE BITE THAT
HURTS
11ZULU

[Sharky]

Six seconds??? Thats slow Z.... I can get off several 3-round bursts in six seconds. Bring that sambo shit on. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[tomtom93]

11ZULU,
How did you come to get to go to the SCARS training program? Did you go on your own or did you get sent by the army? I've read alot about it but never talked to anyone who got to do it. I would be very interested if you could tell me anything about it. I know for a fact that it is very costly to go, I've checked the prices before. I also know that they will only train civ. put to a certain point. Since I'm in the army would that allow me to progress into the the other classes they teach? Agian thank's for the information.
tomtom93

[JOE-BOO]

I went through on my own as a poor college kid....best investment I every made....shows you how worthless Brazlian Ju-jitsu is in an uncontrolled enviroment...along with any other "art"....within a few days you have a great understanding of how the human body reacts....both yours and theirs. I can not say enough about it.
www.scars.com (http://www.scars.com)

[Ranger002]

Hey Zulu,

SCARS is a good first step. You should think about taking your training to the next level when you get the chance.
William Hazen

[JOE-BOO]

well Hazen...don't keep me in suspense....what is the next step

[recce_o]

I believe that Echanis was a former SEAL. He was killed in a plane crash over central or South America in the early 80's.

[Razor]

Disclaimer: this is second-hand information, but from a reliable source.

Spoke with a buddy of mine who's working in the 3 shop for 2/75 right now, waiting for a command to open. He said 2/75 is currently training in Gracie JJ, but its being taught to them by a close friend of the Gracie family, not the family itself.

As an aside, he also (rightfully) was bitching that the Bn has lost pretty much all of its priority on range requests and training areas to the folks of the "Transformation Force", who seem to ask for the world, but use very little of what they're given. Sad day when guys who could go do the real deal at any given moment lose training resource priority to a yet-to-be-developed pet project.

[RangerCharlie]

Please explain "Transformation Force"

[Ranger002]

Well as they say ZEN Z DUDE,

There are many paths to the top of Mt. Fuji.

I leave that up to you my friend. Martial Arts have been a part of my life for a long time and there has been a clear progression for me.My feeling is that the arts have a place in the makeup of a "warrior". The whole SCARS thing is nothing than a series of techniques combined with a bit of POP physcology. It introduced you to the essential nature of violence. So I ask you where do you want to take it from there...This part has always been hard for me because there is so much BS out there. I think it starts with finding a good teacher and then practice practice practice. As for one art being better than another well I have been in a few scrapes here and there and I tell you everybody has their "money punch" the when all else fails I'll hit em with this!!!! technique. That shit does'nt matter cause I have lost almost as many times as I have won. What this experiance has done is givin me an appreciation for the value of life and how not to fight ( so to speak) True Budo is an individual journey and you are young and full of fire. If you dig the shit check out whatever interests you and go for it. It has been a hell of a ride for me and I wish you the same. To me the Arts are like a vein of gold the deeper you dig the richer you get.Namaste' my friend and don't forget to hang with me a bit if you ever get to LA LA land.
William Hazen B 2/75 Ranger C 3/12 SFGA.

[JOE-BOO]

We will be hangin' soon...we got to get with all the other SoCal SOCNET guys for a sunny holiday. When I get my crap together here...I will be all over LA and the rest of SoCal. I know what you are saying with the Zen thing...I am a Taoist.....studied fairly extensively after high school. I also believe that science is a fast track...helps weed out misconceptions and bad poop that the "enlightened ones" try to spread on your sandwich. As for POP psychology...maybe so, but Their use of the Gestalt Principles make learning easily 10x faster with only a small amount of repetition.
Enough of that...people either get it or they don't....I am not looking for a magic carpet ride....Worshiped with one of those Zen "Masters-in-training" and his clowns once....offered a lot in funtional methods for inner-calm, but that constant incence burning and "peaceful calm" is for the granola types. Saw the guy at a party a few weeks later trying to "show off" to the women...trying to explain "This is all there is.....everything alse is an illusion"...I ageed and I guess he did not think my rabble-rousing ass could understand....so he said that if he put his cigarett out on my hand that it was not real, but it would put me in the frame of mind of "now"....again I reassured him that I understood...so he grabed my hand and put the cigaret out on it....I stared him in the face and said again "I know what you are saying "He flinched in disbelief because I did not. What an idiot....He was no closer to "enlightenment" than some of these kiddos are on this boad are to getting off their asses and becoming a warrior....he just wanted the status....to be someone unique....anyway he proposintioned a friend of mine by asking her if she would like to "lay with him tonight" while she was coming down stairs from the restroom....she told us gathered around her livingroom table about his advance to her. I lept off my couch, over another, bounded up the stairs andkickd in the restroom door to find him pisssing...I scared the sh*t out of the guy....walked over...pulled out my "12 inch" (my belt was a little long) and started pissing in the same toilet, looked him inte face and smiled, pointed at him pissing and said "that is all there is my friend"....he left the party after that.

I am not sure what that had to do with anything, but it was a cool event....I guess the life style that goes along with the dogma just rubs me wrong.

Peace of mind through physical toughness and the Warrior spirit!!!!!!!

[carpe282]

The "trans Force" is the new army experiment with a "medium" weight unit. They are going to be light infantry with light armored vehicles.(currently being borrowed from Canada) The idea is to reduce the number of heavy tanks so that the unit can move faster and be more effective in urban enviornments.
There is an article about them in the 7-10 edition of The Tacoma News Tribune.

[realpolypro]

As the proud owner of the only book I know of that was "Banned" (Actually voluntarily pulled by Ohara Publications), Michael Echanis' Knife Fighting, Knife Throwing For Combat...From what I can remember(Books are off site) Mr. Echanis served in Vietnam and was injured to the point that doctors said he'd never recover fully. Well, he said we'll see, and got involved in the Korean art of Hwa-Rang-Do headed by Joo-Bang-Lee. He did recover, and became one of the top practitioners in the art. With his former service connections, he became the top advisor to a combined service hand to hand training team in the 70's. One of the guys on the team was a good friend by the name of Sanders, who also helped him with his 3 books. In the late 70's he became an advisor to Anastasio Somoza Debalye, President of Nicaragua. He was killed in a suspicious helicopter crash over Lake Nicaragua in the late 70's. There's some debate to how involved he was with Joo-Bang-Lee, the head of Hwa-Rang, but the one thing everyone has agreed on is that he was the most effective fighter they'd seen, and was very good at what he did. Do a search on "Hwa-Rang-Do" or "Michael DeAlba". From what I understand, DeAlba broke away from the parent organization because he thought they were getting to far away from the combat oriented concept. In the upper levels, Hwa-Rang teaches some pretty wild stuff. It's the art I'd study if it was around here.

Polypro

[Mike]

Was Mike Echanis a Navy SEAL or Army SF? I read his articles in SOF but I couldn't figure out whether he was either one.

[TANGOisinKOREA]

When I was in Korea I took some Tang Soo Do and then upon coming back to the US I tried the Hwa Rang Do as no Tang Soo Do in my area. Very Interesting style but just not for me.

In the Hwa Rang Do world Mike DeAlba is a four letter word. This is per the world Hwa Rang Do associaton

"Michael DeAlba, due to his continued ethical transgressions, disloyalty, selfish intent, and dishonor to his martial art, was expelled from the World Hwa Rang Do Association (WHRDA). Michael is not a legitimate, qualified instructor of Hwa Rang Do and his video tapes portray false, inaccurate material"

Just an FYI take it for whatever its worth. I am sure they dont want him taking potential students.

Chas

[Ranger002]

If you are an active duty soldier any art that emphasizes killing and defending against weapons and multiple opponents should be considered for practice.Thanks for the info on Mike POLYP. My memory of those days is foggy.What I do remember is that the guy walked the walk and talked the talk.
William Hazen B 2/75 Ranger.

[realpolypro]

If I EVER run into anyone from AOL, I am going to seriously beat the ever loving piss out of them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (You'll see why below, got bumped)!

Polypro

[This message has been edited by realpolypro (edited 07-12-2000).]

[realpolypro]

Re: Echanis: I know he was not a SEAL. I don't think he was SF, but a kick ass line dog. If I'm wrong, I mean no disrespect to a great man's memory. The list for the "Special Operations Research and Development Group, Senior Advisors and Head Instructors, Office for the Study of Conflict and Tactics" is as follows:

Senior Advisor, Navy Special Warfare Studies, MCPO Nissley, USN Advisor USJFKCENMA

Senior Advisor, Army Special Warfare Studies, MSG Jakovenko, 5th SFG(A)

Senior Advisor, Psycho-Physical Studies, MSG Jackson, Head Instructor, Special Forces Medical School, Former POW

Head Instructor, Special Forces, Hand to Hand Combat Team, Special Weapons Instructors' Team, SGT Sanders, 5th SFG(A)

Head Instructor, 82nd Airborne Raider Recondo, Hand to Hand Combat Team, Special Weapons Instructors' Team, SSG O'Neal, Ranger Instructor

Head Instuctor, UDT-SEAL, Hand to Hand Combat Team, Special Weapons Instructors' Team, 1st Class Petty Officer Paaina, SEAL Team 2

Head Instructor, Force Recon, Hand to Hand Combat Team, Special Weapons Instructors' Team, SSG O'Grady, 2nd Force Recon

(Continued below for fear of AOL.........)

[This message has been edited by realpolypro (edited 07-12-2000).]

[realpolypro]

Re: DeAlba. I have no trouble believing that the official Hwa-Rang orginization say's what it does. If he believed that the orginization was straying from the origional concept of Hwa-Rang, and felt so stongly about it that he split or was kicked out, I applaud him. Without a thorough backround in the situation, this is just speculation, but in the year 2000 I have a hard time believing that an official organization would want the "Tearing of Flesh", which is 0ne of twenty-one subdivisions of "Negong", taught to students. If his techniques are valid, I could care less who he is affiliated with. Just look at how "Olympicized" Tae-Kwon-Do has become...But that is what the official organization supports. Cucci's had some barbs thrown at him about misrepresentation, yadda, yadda. But he WAS trained by Inosanto, and Sirisuite. Of course, these statements just serve to further others, like SCARS/Peterson's cause for students. They are all civillians now, and it is marketing. Bottom line: Are the techniques valid? If your serious about studying, it's up to the individual to gather as much information as possible, and make a decision. "Whatcha gonna do now PL?"

Polypro
(Author, SOCNET)

[LRSC Grunt]

I, just like millions of others fired A-O-Hell a loooooooonnnnnnnggggg time ago.

[realpolypro]

Yeah, but the wife likes the chatty thing . I'm using it as a back up to something else, which is down right now. The lesser of two evils I guess.

Polypro

[LRSC Grunt]

I hear ya.

[Felix]

PoltPro,
Thanx for the additional info on Mr.Echanis.

[realpolypro]

No worries. If I know about something, I'll tell you. If I don't, I'll joke about it http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

Polypro