I.E.T. ?

[0802]

This is a little off the focus of this board, but I am posting this to see what some of the Army officers and personnel think about it. Today, my branch received an electronic document from Fort Benning, the subject was TRADOC's plan to institute IET (I believe it stands for Initial Entry Training). IET would be a shorten version of my service's Basic School, so all Army officers will start off on a common footing when it comes to training. It has been the observation, here at Fort Sill and several other OBC, that new Lt's lack the basic knowledge in warrior skills when they arrive at OBC and possibly they will still show up in the "regular army" way behind the power curve. I have personally experienced on many occasions having to stop fire planning classes to discuss standard maneuver TTP examples would be simple things like integration of FPL and FPFs, fire and movement, and patrolling techniques. This is in addition to the numerous grosses errors revolving around weapons and their handling. It was almost to the point that I thought flagging one another with a rifle, be it armed with blank or not, was required part of precommissioning training for how often it happens on the one opportunity they Lt's get to use weapons here. These short comings have been seen in officers from OCS, ROTC and USMA. If IET were to be done, what should it include? What should the focus be? Would it even be worthwhile?

[JOE-BOO]

yes....yes....yes...yes....yes...yes...yes...yes.. .

[JSOCMarine]

"Every soldier a rifleman?" S/F

[Sharky]

Mmmmmmmm........nope, can't have that. Makes too much sense and wasn't MY idea. Definitely a no-go. This ain't the Marine Corps after all. Only infantry need to know how to load an M-4. We've got the standards so low now in marksmanship that actually learning to shoot is obsolete. Just like we want it. Said Sharky with heavy sarcasm.

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F.I.D.O.

[Tracy]

0802:

I think the Army woke up to the fact that there is no more front line anymore. Anyone can become engaged in heavy contact. IET is a step in the right direction. Now if we can set reinforcement training for IET subjects; and do the same for the enlisted and NCO Corps...

It's also a barometer of how well our commissioning program does in preparing our cadets...

tracy.**********@60mdg.travis.af.mil

[Mike]

The Marine Corps has it The Basic School for many, many years. The Air Force just start it Aerospace (something). Are you saying that the Army is doing something before all officers go to their branch/MOS schools?

[Door Kicker]

I have some insite on this subject:

After I left 7th SF and joined 20th SF in Alabama, I also decided to put the GI Bill to good use.
I needed to declare a minor in order to fullfill graduation requirements.
I thought what better a minor for me than Military Science?
I approached the little white buildings with much resistance, but entered anyway.
I talked to the officers there, and they were more than happy to sign me up.(I might add that these were all combat arms officers assisted by Infantry,one from 3rd BATT,senior NCO's)
Their plan for me was to sign a commisioning contract, which I never did.
I did however complete all nessicary training, including FTX training, if you can call it that.
It was a complete joke.
The instructors were so scared to let the cadets do anything. They never got smoked either.
It was all a happy game they played, and everyones comfort level was of most importance. PT was three runs a week 3-5miles and basketball.
went to the range one time during a three year period. Most cadets never got off the zero range, and they made me a safety officer.
Most cadets were non prior service, and the ones that had been to basic, had been in the reserves.
I could go on and on but I would never stop.
DK

[mdb23]

Door Kicker
As one who recently received a Military Science Minor (non-contracting) I can EASILY corroborate your statement-not that you need corroboration, but I am throwing in my .02 anyway- In three years of ROTC experience I was never smoked, only handled an actual weapon on 3-5 different occassions (while at ROTC Basic Camp, Fort Knox, KY, FTX, etc.), and received no practical leadership training-unless you count leading DNC at our leadership labs.

As far as PT is concerned, running three times a week, you must have been high speed! We had PT on MWF, but normally only ran on Wednesday. Monday was taken up by circuit training and Friday was reserved for basketball or, weather permitting, frisbee footbal! Leadership lab consisted of watching videos pertaining to MOS's or completing the world's shortest land nav course at the local state park. Basic Camp was comical-even for a non prior service chap such as myself. The Drill Sergeants were given very strict 'hands off' instructions regarding our treatment and told to handle us with the softest of kiddie gloves. Standards were non existant, and were were loaded down with "Cadidiot ribbons and awards" upon our departure. It was insulting.

I won't even mention the FTX where we were herded into vans at 2 a.m. due to uncooperative weather. I guess the ROTC motto is "If it statrts raining, abandon training."

In all seriousness, I was very displeased with the entire experience. I was as motivated as they come upon my enrollment- "HOOOOOAHHH Sir, let me sign that contract, twice!"-but upon seeing the standard of training that was being offered, I quickly became aware that this particular ROTC program in NO WAY prepared one to be a leader of soldiers.

[mdb23]

BTW,
Just in case there are any current or former members of an ROTC Ranger Challenge Team out there (I swear that I refused to wear the beret, honestly!)----Did anyone ever do anything other than build a one rope bridge? Can't really say that we did, although we did engage in a little 'road trotting' (I refuse to call the pace at which we were travelling "marching.").

[mdb23]

Hmmmmmm,

I guess that I should proof my statements before posting. Anyway, footbal=football, existant=existent, statrs=starts, etc.... Ahhhhhhhh, I feel better.

[recce_o]

Can someone give me a quick chronological run down of how an ROTC person starts as a civilian and ends up as an Lt?

What is "basic camp"? Is there a basic training that has to be completed after college, or are officers send directly to MOS training? On completion of MOS training are 2Lt's promoted to Lt?

Many thanks to anyone who can help.

[mdb23]

recce_o

All of the following information pertains to Army ROTC. I have no knowledge of the other branches' programs.

ROTC is broken up into four, three, and two year programs (I hear they are going to eliminate the four year program, but that is another matter).

A four year ROTC Cadets are required to take one Military Science course (by course I mean class- such as Military History, Land Navigation, etc..) during each semester of his college career. There is no obligation to the military until the Cadet "contracts" between his sophomore and junior year, at which point he begins to receive $100 per month from good old Uncle Sam. Along with the courses, the Cadet attends 3 PT sessions per week, and one "leadership lab" which is usually held on Thursday afternoons. During the summer between his junior and senior year, the Cadet attends the ROTC Advanced Camp (6 weeks), at which point he receives a commissioning physical and an evaluation during which he is rated 1 through 5, with 5 being the best. Upon return from Advanced Camp, the Cadet takes one Military Science class per semester for the remaining two semesters, graduates, and receives a commission. It is often the case that the new Lt. will remain on campus as a "Casual Lt." until an OBC slot opens in his MOS, or he could be assigned to Camp Challenge (the ROTC Basic Camp at Ft. Knox, KY) until a slot is assigned. In three years of ROTC, I never saw an Lt. skip OBC and go directly to a unit, although I heard rumors that it had happened.

Three year ROTC Cadets have the option of doubling up on their Military Science classes during their sophomore year in order to make up for those missed during their frosh year, or attending ROTC Basic Camp during the summer between their soph and junior year. The Camp is 6 weeks in length and is designed to bring one up to speed on the things he may have missed his freshman year. The rest of the program is the same as above.

2 year Cadets go to Basic Camp, no choice, and proceed as described above.

During the senior year of study, the Cadet puts together a "packet" in which he requests to fulfill his obligation on Active Duty, in the Reserves, or in a National Guard unit. The Cadet also makes a wish list of MOS's, though one is forced to list x number of CA, Support, and Combat Service Support MOS's, so one's hands are somewhat tied. Same gooes for duty stations, with x being CONUS, etc.... The Cadet also lists all honors, achievements, letters of reference, and anything else that may help his cause. Based on NTOA, evaluations, accomplishments, and Advanced Camp ratings, the Lt. receives an assignment.

Whether a Cadet has received a ROTC scholarship has no bearing on the program requirements. Hope this helps.

[mdb23]

I guess that I should add that being a 4 or 3 year scholarship Cadet does entail contracting before your junior year. A friend of mine from college was a 4 year scholarship winner (now a Lt. in the Reserves), and he contracted his freshman year. Apparently, as soon as money is spent on you, your butt belongs to Unca' Sam.

As far as Basic Camp is concerned, Cadets are assigned leadership positions, (Platoon Ldr., 1st Sgt., etc..) and are evaluated on their leadership abilities. "John Doe, you are now the platoon sergeant, make sure your people are out of bed and toeing the line at 0445." It is really amateur stuff. The only funny thing is the incredible amount of Blue Falconing, oh what the hell, buddy f******, that goes on. You wouldn't believe how often individuals would say, "Ed was late and got me in trouble, just wait until he is the Lt., I'll show his a**."

Then there are the little romantic trists that occure whenever 20-22 year old males and females are thrown together so far from their significant others. We had one couple disappear during a land nav course. The Drill Sergeants were seeing their careers flash before their eyes thinking that they had lost two individuals, and the Cadets were just bursting out in laughter when they heard who the two missing youngsters were. "Um, Drill Sergeant, I doubt those two are lost, per se." Sent home in a heartbeat, they were!!!!

Most of the time is taken up in classes, with very little time spent at the range or on any confidence courses (we did an O course once, I think). Although we did get to go into the gas chamber.

[Whammer]

I did the same stuff pledging a frat. Sneaking away with girls on the scavenger hunt, early wake-ups, playing the human equivalent of Space Invaders (getting beer kegs thrown at you). Yep, great time...

Ah, college...

[abaustin]

Just a little correction, not all two year students need to go to Basic Camp. It's waived if you have been through Basic Training (at least Army Basic, I don't know if any other service's basic counts.)

One of ROTC's big programs is ROTC/SMP (Simultaneous Membership Program) is where you can concurrently serve with a Reserve/Nat'l Guard unit and be enrolled in ROTC. If you sign up for this as a two year student, you go to Basic Training instead of Basic Camp the summer before your Junior year, and then you serve in a unit while you're workign towards a commision.

It's a popular program, from what I understand, because there is some actual leadership experiance to be gained--usually during your Senior year in college you will be assigned either to fill or to assist an LT.

I almost went that route, but I really don't have the patience to go back to college.

[realpolypro]

Yea, this is all well and good. But it just serves as a reminder that the officer corps has no clue as to what is going on. Period. Every officer was trained by his Platoon Sargeant, who, by the way, probably has the same amount of education in this day and age.
"Roger that...Cur"

Polypro

[cavscout]

Door Kicker or mdb23,

I was thinking about using some of the GI Bill's money myself, and the college I was considering going to has the Military Science minor. There is no way that I want to actually become an officer, so I was interested to know more about the program without getting commissioned. I take it that I still have to attend Advanced Camp even though I've been through basic to get the minor? Also if you aren't contracted on a scholarship, or after you tell them you aren't interested in getting commissioned is it still possible to get a slot for Airborne or the other schools that they seem to hand out like candy to all of their cadets? Also would I get paid while attending these schools since I am enlisted, or would it be with no pay like the cadets? Do they pay you while at Advanced Camp if you are not contracted? None of these really has much of an impact on my choice, but it would still be nice to know. I am not interested in too much else that the college has to offer in ways of minors, but I figure it would be nice to get these questions answered before I walk in there and talk to the cadre who will most likely sugar coat it.

cavscout

[Sharky]

Ditto poly.......Some things never change.

[recce_o]

Thanks for the clarification. Officer Basic Course is where officer's learn their trade? For example, an artillery officer will learn about artillery and consequently, basic soldiering skills like patrolling and marksmanship are not taught, on the assumption that these skills should have been learned at Basic and Advanced Camps?

"The Officer Corps has no clue..." Perhaps just a little bit of overstatement Polypro?

[This message has been edited by recce_o (edited 07-13-2000).]

[mdb23]

cavscout
1. Advanced Camp is attended only by contracted Cadets. The reason for this being that the purpose of Advanced Camp is to evaluate and rate all Cadets who are to be commissioned. This rating, in turn, is to my understanding the -most-influential factor in determining whether or not one receives Active or Reserves, as well as influencing MOS selection. You can guess how much buddy f****** goes on there. I heard horror stories from friends upon their return.

2. Yes, you would be paid for attending Basic and Advanced Camp. The amount is something like $670.00 for each of the 6 week courses. However, since you are advanced $100.00 upon your arrival at either school ( for need to have items as well as t-shirts, mugs, and all sorts of other rubbish) and Uncle Sam has a bite, I think you will receive a check for about $440.00 on your day of departure.

3. In my experience, slots for Airborne, Air Assault, and so forth were not handed out like candy. For example, my ROTC detachment received 6 Airborne slots and 1 Air Assault slot during one year, and those slots were handed out based on a mock OML (GPA, PT scores, etc). The Air Assault slot wasn't even used due to the fact that the dates of the school conflicted with practically everyones' Advanced Camp dates. I begged, pleaded, and whined in ways to which I was unaccustomed in an attempt to get the slot, but was shot down hard due to the fact that "I was not contracted." In fact, I never saw any non-contracted individual get a slot to go anywhere. I have heard many stories of ROTC Cadets attending SERE, Mountain Warfare, Arctic Warfare, etc, but I NEVER saw a slot for one of the aforementioned schools come to my detachment, or to the other two detachments with which we trained. Not to say it doesn't happen, I just never witnessed it. However, you are paid for your time at any school while in ROTC. How much? Can't say, I haven't BT or DT.

recce_o
I can't (won't) comment on what occurs at an OBC, for I have never been to one. I will say that patrolling and marksmanship are taught neither at Basic or Advanced Camp, unless you count taking notes while a Drill Sergeant reads from the Ranger Handbook and then practicing for one afternoon. Marksmanship training-2 or 3 days at Basic. Ther are, however, diff't OBCs for different MOS's. For example, a friend of mine just grauated from the Engineer Officer Basic Course at Ft. Leonardwood (sp), Infantry Officers go to IOBC, etc.

[JOE-BOO]

Polypro and Sharky....just remember.....that some officers bring expierence and common sense with them....not necessarily me...but I have heard there are some out there...

Also, even though they completely screwed me over at Benning several times in different ways...I see now that IOBC was better for me to lead troops than other OBCs....some of those courses arescary...how little being a leader is taught and pounded into them...

POLY....I was in 07-00 B CO...left 2nd Day RAP for what was thought to be a sprained MCL...never ran the five mile.

[0802]

I looked at the IET package in detail today. The start for the program is FY03. It will be eight weeks long. It is to include land navigation, combative, familiarization fire of most weapons, a communication package and a supporting arms package. One of the disturbing items that was that when this 8 week school was implemented, they wanted to cut the total length of other OBC accordingly. This is the exact opposite of what is needed. How is substituting a class on infantry skill going to work for an artillery or armor officer. Although they needs to know how to use machineguns and patrol, their primary duty is to do something else.
One the weapons side of the house, the army Lts’ total IET time is still less time than the Marines dedicate to their Lts’ at TBS in just training on various weapons.

[Sharky]

11Zulu, no flame bro, just an observation. I realize that it does not apply to all officers. The only things that apply tp all of us are death and taxes. We were indeed spoiled in batt with the caliber of our officers. Our O's were handpicked and were the cream of the crop for obvious reasons. It was not until I left batt that I really began to see how screwed up and out of touch the officers corp is overall. I think the best advice they can give any LT is to keep his mouth shut and listen to his PLT SGT. That E-7 that was doing night mass tacs while the LT was still shittin green. I know I'm preaching to the choir so I'll shut the hell up and get back to work. Later guys.

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[Door Kicker]

cavscout,

I would not reccomend you get the Minor in Military Science unless you didn't pay attention while in basic training and AIT.
Same stuff, little more on the 7-8, on a real slow pace.
I got it because of a time advantage.
I didn't have to do the basic camp or first two years because of the fact that I was prior service. This meant that I was already half way to my minor, instead of starting from the begining with something more usefull. I did the MSIII and IV years in no particular order. I also took the MSII repel course. I didn't go to the evaluation camp because I was not seeking a comission.
This is not a common practice. I had to do major smoozing with the PMS. Who buy the way was at Bragg the same time I was with Division and let me slide.
I assured him that I would only be an asset to the cadets, and would share my knowledge and experiences. I guess he looked at it like he was getting another NCO to help with training??????? I am and was SSG.
I actually had some good buddies there. They couldn't help it that they didn't know jack shit about the real Army.
DK

[mdb23]

Door Kicker makes a really good point-I know of no individuals (other than Door Kicker and myself) who were allowed to progress to the MSIII and MSIV levels without contracting (By MSIII and MSIV I mean the junior and senior years of study). In my case the Senior NCO and I were weightlifting partners who occasionally drank a brew together. Upon my return from Basic Camp, I told him that I was planning on enlisting after graduation rather than contracting into ROTC. He then told me that he could "work something out with the chain of command" to where I could complete my MS Minor. I completed all of my MSIII and MSIV courses via independent study, while continuing to attend all of the FTXs, leadership labs, PT sessions, etc. In no way is this common practice.

[RangerTom]

As embarrasing as it is, I am an ROTC comissionee, although, soon to resign and become an E-5 to go be an 18B. I would agree with all of you that ROTC is a F#CKING joke, at best. IET sounds great, however, it all depends on how it's run and whether or not the standards are tuff enough, and if they are, then whether or not they are consistent. What I'm trying to say is, if it's run like ROTC, you're going to have all of the soft skill fags right there with everyone else. Which means, eventually, there will be different standards because of certain quotas on officers in all of the branches that need to be met. Which means the female who's going to the Medical Service Corps won't necesarily care about patrolling and subsequently won't perform that well, which ,when added to the quotas, will result in the instructors looking the other way and letting substandar officers slide by. Which, in my opinion, is exactly what is happening right now in ROTC, this problem will just be extended to another step in training. I feel that the first step in producing officers that are worth a shit, is to require basic training, the real basic training not basic camp, before they start ROTC. The problem isn't necessarily the lack of trainig, but rather, the lack of care on the officers part. One can learn to be fairly proficient at all of the above mentioned skills if they; 1: take the time to read up on it; 2: take the time to give a shit about it; 3: and most importantly, talk to their NCOs and soldiers and actually listen to what they have to say and learn from it. Unfortunately, being an officer now isn't about being a warrior, it's about being a politician and a power point guru and licking as much ass as it takes to get your next job while stepping on your piers and compromising your own personal morals and values. All of the I.E.T. in the world won't change that! And, no offense 0802, the Artillery epitimizes the back stabbing, non- warrior, weak, spineless, political leadership that this Army suffers from. And yes I was an Artillery officer. I haven't seen or done a whole lot, but I've seen this first hand and it disgusted me to the point of ETS from AD and the eventual resignation of my commission. Off Soap Box!

RLTW

[This message has been edited by RangerTom (edited 07-24-2000).]

[This message has been edited by RangerTom (edited 07-24-2000).]

[0802]

RangerTom:
No offense taken, since I am not an Army FA officer. When did you go through OBC? I don't think it is the people to blame, but rather the system. The attitude of the FA officers are the same as the infantry officers, armor and the aviation officers that work here. The whole power point thing drives me nuts. USAFAS (and TRADOC in general) has the bad problem of actually caring about what the Lts' like or don't like/want. The student generated critiques here are actually read and if Lts are negative about instructors or the POI, things change. Apparently the whole reason that all the exams are now open book was the problems of getting newly commissioned army Lts to go to the FA. There was to much "FAOBC is too mentally demanding." Not the proper attitude to take when training people to place explosives extremely close to friendlies. The another thing that really pisses me off is the over emphasis on a "doctrinal answer." I understand on certain things like computing a sweep and zone, there are only many ways to do technical items. But on tactical issues the over emphasis on only doing it the way the FM spells it out will eventually be a killer.

[baboon]

0802-
How long is TBS and what is covered in it? Am I correct in saying Marine officers then go to MOS training afterward eg. infantry, artillery? One thing I don't understand about the US military (army in particular) is the incredible amount of ways of getting a commission ( eg different types of ROTC, OCS, USMA) which must lead to very uneven standards. The Marines seem to be better in this regard.

[0802]

TBS is a 6 month school all Marine Officers must go through. It teaches the basics: close combat skills, operations orders, small arms, demolitions, swimming (helps since we are a maritime service) and all the administrative skills and items necessary for a Lt to arrive in the fleet with the minimum amount of knowledge to survive long enough to really learn. But in general it emphasis being able to fuflil the role of a provisional rifle platoon commander. It been years since I was a student there, but there are "package" on use of all supporting arms, mechanised and counter-mechanised operations, patroling, offense and defense operations, convoy operations, rear area secuity, urban patrolling, MOUT. After TBS Lt go to their MOS school, infantry officers stay at Camp Barret for an additional 9 weeks of IOC. Artillery, Armor and MP officers go to the Army's OBC. Pilots and NFOs go to Pensacola, Florida. The non-pilot Air Wing officers go to either Pensacola or NAS Militon, Tennessee for various MOS schools. Assault amphibians, and post IOC LAR officers are sent to Camp Pendelton for their school. JAG officers go to Road Island for a military Law course. Engineers, Adjutants, Logistics, Motor Transport and Supply officers go to Camp Lejeune for their respective MOS schools. Intel officer, ground type go to IOC than to Fort Huanchuca. Air and Signal Intel go to Norfolk for the navy's course.

[RangerTom]

0802,

I went through OBC class 2-97. I don't mean to imply that the FA school house or the training there are the problem, because they're not. OBC, I thought, was well put together for the alloted time that is given to get through the substantial amount of subject matter to be covered. I do agree with you about all of the touchy feely crap going on. It seems instead of hardenning the officers they made the school easier. It's the same thing they did with the APFT. Too many people were failing, so instead of revamping the PT, they made the test easier. It's the same out of shape, fat, lard ass, lazy, F#CKS, except now their PT scores are higher. Of course, I was fortunate enough to be in the Marine platoon and had mostly Marine instructors, at least for gunnery. The problem lies with those that are above the school cadre. It's actually many different things that help to create this problem. One, being the shortage of people to fill slots. Another, being the over all command climate of the Armed Forces, hell, of the whole country for that matter. Another problem, is a generational thing. I call it the, "me generation". Everyone is out for themselves. It's the, "You can't F#CK with me because I have rights" generation. The Military just isn't an, "In" thing to do right now, so your pool of selectees is dwindling and you have to pick what you think is the best out of that pool, which, for the most part, isn't that great. Then, you have to take these substandard, un-motivated, self centered people, and turn them into officers. Which produces un-motivated, substandard, self centered officers. I want to make it clear that this is a generalization of course. I have met a few really good officers that I would follow anywhere, very few. Most of the good ones that I have had the pleasure of working with or for were prior service. I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but it is a common theme, for the most part, that I have found. I find that the ones that I think are great leaders are being left behind in promotions though. It's sickening to have a leader who will go to bat for you and your soldiers, and who generally does the right things for the right reasons tell you that he probably won't get a BN command because he stands up for what is right and isn't afraid to tell the leadership that things are F#CKED up. I was always told in ROTC to, "Do the right things for the right reasons and you'll never go wrong". BULL SHIT!! If you speak up as an officer these days you get stompped on. The guys that are commanding and that are going to command are "Yes Men". They are these geeky admin type guys who wont ever question the leadership, can't PT for shit, can barely qualify with a weapon, but can give a presentation on power point and know the difference between aerial font and times new roman. F#CKING DOWN RIGHT DEPRESSING if you ask me!! Take care!

Tom
RLTW

[baboon]

Thanks 0802. Sounds like a very good way of doing things, making sure every officer has the same basic skills. Kind of like the British Army system, all officers must go through the year-long course at Sandhurst before being commissioned, no matter whether they have come from university(where some may have been part of the OTC) , school or the ranks. After that comes additional training eg. Platoon Commanders Battle Course for infantry officers. " Professionally qualified " officers ( doctors and lawyers ) are excluded. The Royal Marines have reputedly one of the toughest commissioning courses, about 15 months long and includes Commando training, cadets must achieve better results in the various tests than ORs. Funnily enough the RM apparently like a course to be half graduates and half non-grads ( from school, civilian jobs or the ranks ).

Q about TBS: if an officer fails, what happens then, as he is already commissioned?

[This message has been edited by baboon (edited 07-24-2000).]

[JSOCMarine]

Baboon,
An officer who fails TBS is quickly "decommissioned!" S/F