Peacekeeping

[Jeff Rambo]

I'm sure the last paragraph in this article will spark some convo seeing as to how everyone here seems to have an opinion on the subtopic at hand ...
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/misconduct000915.html

Gentlemen, start your engines.

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w/ Regards,
Jeff Rambo

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I Want A Four Man Team On A Midnight Run ...

[mdb23]

I changed my mind, I think that I will stay clear of this thread (hence the edit).

Have fun with this one.

Cheers,

mdb23





[This message has been edited by mdb23 (edited 09-16-2000).]

[Ler]

Sad Situation overall.

[TWKINC]

The last paragraph says it all. (“The report concludes that the soldiers were sent for duty in Kosovo with little training in peacekeeping duties. They had essentially been trained to fight a war, not to keep the peace, the report notes.”)

However neither anyone nor I can really excuse the way some of these soldiers acted. I have talked with a number soldiers from the 504, hell the guy who lives next door to me here in the C/3/1 barracks was in the company mentioned in this article. He too can back up some of what this article talks about. The bottom line, don’t send combat ready troops to a peacekeeping op.

Yet at the same time, the leaders of this unit knew what they were being sent to Kosovo for, they should have trained their men for the job at hand. This is one of those things I think we all wish would have never become public. In order for that to happen, we should have never been there in the first place!

But lets not forget, the men accused of doing wrong in this article, appear to be mostly leaders, I am sure many of these “leaders” were wishing for their tiny war. The bottom line they acted unprofessional and now they will pay a price.


[This message has been edited by TWKINC (edited 09-16-2000).]

[goblinhunter]

This thread reminds me of a comment that I heard about a few months back.

One of the Fugitive Recovery agents that I worked with was/is Special forces and spent s bit of time in the former yugoslavia area and was overheard at one point saying that he should get back in so that he could go back to kosovo so he could kill people and get away with it.

I believe that he said this when he was highly frusterated about an arrest situation regarding a defendant who wasn't acting very willing to return to jail.

Stuff like this makes me wonder if this current stuff in the news isn't just scratching the top. I hope that it isn't any deeper than what we see in the news right now.

Chris

[wolfhound227]

If you realy want to get ticked,check out the
CNN web-site.They have Ronghis as the 82nd's
poster boy.


Screw Them....




[This message has been edited by wolfhound227 (edited 09-16-2000).]

[Jeff Rambo]

I'm guessing Wolf was referring to: http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/03/16/kosovo.child.killing/index.html ...

If not Wolf, grace us with a link bro.

- Out

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w/ Regards,
Jeff Rambo

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I Want A Four Man Team On A Midnight Run ...

[Daredevil]

A scandal somewhat similar to this happened in Somalia, only it was some Canadian Airborne guys that did it. They beat a Somali teenager to death. I think the unit was disbanded when they got home.

[wolfhound227]

Jeff,
That's the one.For some reason I could'nt
pull off the link.
Thanks man!

[Snake]

Well,
the solution's bloody obvious, isnt it? Disband the 82nd, right? Marines next, cause they cant seem to behave on Okinawa!
Christ, crap like this makes me sick. When I was with the Eighty'Duece, This wasnt how I saw myself..
If one of -my- men did something like that, I -guarantee- he wouldnt make it back to base.

Snake
frmr 25th ID(L)

[This message has been edited by Snake (edited 09-17-2000).]

[Skip]

Peace keeping will become the major focus of the worlds armed forces. Theres no way that another Gulf war could be fought, certainly not on that scale.

The British army spends most of it's time training for Peace Keeping/Enforcement roles and I am a little suprised that (from the comments above) the US doesn't as much.

But this is where Special Forces really enter the peace keeping role. Take example from Mog or Seria Leon.

But unit disipline is hard to balance with political correctness. I'll always rember when a guy stole something from me. We put his hands inside the opening of a Landrover door and I ran about 20 metres and slammed it shut.

The solution is for the press to butt out and let the boys do their job.

[Skip]

Im not professing to be any kind of expert on peace keeping/enforcement ops, I have been closely involved in several, but haven't been on a live op.

Im not wishing to judge anything, just giving my support to the guys out there and also some thoughts from another nation who has a lot of live experience in difficult operations.

[Ranger002]

Dudes,

If you would to to get a whole other spin on "peacekeeping" read the article on Russian Atrocities in Chechnya. It made me sick to my stomach. Not that the Russian's are committing them but the total waste of modern warfare. Also note the the Russian forces occupying that country are elite SPEC OPS and Police units. Thank God I live here. WWW.LATIMES.com (http://WWW.LATIMES.com) it's in the Sunday Edition
William Hazen

[Daredevil]

This from Reuters yesterday. I figured this would be relevant to this discussion

Abusive U.S. Peacekeepers Cause 'Grave Concern'-Cohen
September 17, 2000 11:21 am EST

By Charles Aldinger
SINGAPORE (Reuters) - Defense Secretary William Cohen expressed "grave concern" Sunday about abusive, threatening behavior toward civilians by an American peacekeeping unit in Kosovo that resulted in the disciplining of nine officers and men.

But in a written statement provided by the Pentagon to Reuters as he visited Singapore, Cohen said an Army investigation of the unit must not tarnish the reputation of more than 10,000 U.S. peacekeepers in the Balkans.

The official report, expected to be released in Washington as early as Monday, found that members of an American 82nd Airborne Division unit harassed, struck and threatened civilians, including groping women at checkpoints.

"The incidents described in that report are a source of grave concern and reflect behavior that cannot be allowed to recur," Cohen's statement said.

"Such incidents must not, however, be allowed to tarnish the reputation and accomplishments of the more than 10,000 American men and women in uniform who are serving with distinction under difficult circumstances in the Balkans," he added.

Four Army officers and five enlisted men received punishment that included reduction in rank and forfeiture of some pay after the probe sparked by the murder last January of an 11-year-old ethnic Albanian girl in Kosovo by a sergeant in the unit.

Staff Sgt. Frank Ronghi pleaded guilty two months ago to sodomy and murder charges brought by the Army and was sentenced to life in prison.

Cohen said he fully supported additional "efforts currently underway to address questions of leadership, readiness, training and discipline within the 3rd Battalion, 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment while it was assigned to Kosovo."

The new probe was ordered by Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki on Sept. 8.

Pentagon spokesman Ken Bacon, in Singapore with Cohen, told Reuters that a report of the initial investigation, begun by an Army colonel in January, showed apparent problems of discipline and training in the peacekeeping unit.

"Members of the unit groped some women at checkpoints and were abusive in crowd-control situations," Bacon said. "It (the report) found that there was a poor command-and-control climate in the unit and there was not enough supervision."

The report suggested, however, that allegations of misconduct and excessive use of force appeared to be isolated to the unit and were not widespread among U.S. peacekeepers in Kosovo and Bosnia.

Defense lawyers for Ronghi said that the environment in Kosovo might have contributed to his crime.

They noted that there had been a number of incidents of excessive violence committed by American soldiers in the province as well as beatings and unauthorized interrogations of ethnic Albanians, which they said could have led to a "negative command climate."

[soup82]

Are any of the Rgr bats involved in peace ops? I think there is a role, based on the EO operation in Sierra Leone.
I've been reading up on the Sierra Leone situation. What a colossal political fuckup on the part of the west and Britain and the US in particular. EO goes in with something like 130??? men and stabilizes the situation. People stop getting shot, NGO's are able to work effectively and safely, life is better. But then.....everybody flips coz the "mercs" actually want to be paid for doing a job they were hired for. Brits and US chase them off. Country goes to shit. How many troops have been deployed now. How many dead civilians since the west presssured SL pres to let EO go? And the news says that they are sending 7000 more troops. To do a job that it took 130 professionals to do???? WTF???

If U.S forces are going to be used for peacekeeping, I believe operations should follow the EO model rather than the UN model. Which operation was more effective, in terms of money, lives lost, lives saved and a return to stability?

I'm ignoring the political realities of the situation, which is that there must be a clear political goal in order to give a clear operational goal. But I believe that a ranger company - not an SF team or company - perhaps even an 82d company, could have provided much the same effect as EO, with a lot more effectiveness than the present troops dealing with the situation have shown so far. In other words, identify bad guys who chop arms off civilians, kill them, eat Brown and Root ice cream while Brown and Root buries dead bad guys, go home.

Cheers,

Patrick LaRocque

[Ranger002]

You know fellow peacekeepers,

Rangers do not belong on peace keeping ops. It is not part of thier mission. SF and CA on the other hand have "peacekeeping" built into thier mission statement and force structure.
On a side note with all the stories I have been reading lately ( I do realize it is the prism of the media) the world seems to be gearing up for some major violence beyond the Chechnya's and Rawanda's.I am wondering what role we should play in this if any and PLEASE no UN Black Helo crap.
For example should we stick the average 19 year PFC in a combat zone where troops rip female snipers in half with tanks and cables tied to thier ankles ( as written in the LA Times article I told you guys about on "peacekeeping" in Chechnya). I think I will stop before I get started here.No more from me.
William Hazen

[wolfhound227]

I agree with Ranger Hazen all the way.
We need to be careful where we send our guys
and what type of units we send.
It's equally important that we make sure that
the troops have EVERYTHING that they might
need once they're deployed.And that the ground command has the first and last word
and that Washington respects and backs them.

[goblinhunter]

I agree with Hazen.

Rangers don't do this kind of crap, they don't need this kind of crap, and they most certainly would NOT benifit from this kind of crap.

Not only that, but I almost think that many of the current little brushfire wars are being started for the simple outcome of attracting worldwide attention. I think that they learned that terrorism dosn't get the results that it used to when they go after forign people(forign from their own dinky little country) and so they have learned that killing boatloads of your own people gets a bigger slot on CNN and in the current Govts. of the world.

What better way to get loads of US cash than to make a minor problem really big for awhile until the US intevenes on behalf of one side or the other?

Chris

[baboon]

EO was forced out of Sierra Leone by the Lome Accords which supposedly ended the civil war three years ago ( yeah right ). EO did not provide the equivalent of a Ranger or Para company but specialists in certain areas such as LRRP, mechanised infantry and especially aircrew. I wrote in a previous post the only " merc " remaining in SL is South African Air Force gunship legend Lt.Col. Neal Ellis , a veteran of countless missions over Angola. These days he flies an Mi-24 with a Lebanese co-pilot/gunner and SL door-gunners, truly an international force.

Of course the disadvantage of such a force is that they depend on finance from the host country itself( or whoever is bankrolling the op), they do not have the freedom of action of the US or UK. Personally I believe such a force should be hired by the UN and must sever all ties with mining companies.

[Snake]

"It isnt a Ranger job"...

And it -is- an Infantry job? What we need is a division or so of MP's.....

Have gun-bunnies act as cops....you tend to have a lot of "shot while attempting to escape.."

Snake
25th ID(L)
I dont like Kofi Annan.
When, exactly, did I get to vote for
the UN GenSec?

[soup82]

Some clarification.

We are involved in these little brushwars and will continue to do so until the political usefulness of these ventures change.

Ranger's aren't cops and shouldn't be used as cops. I don't believe in police actions. I know I'm politically naive, but I believe you identify the bad guys, go in and eliminate them as a fighting force. People who cut other people's limbs off are not rebels. They are criminals. Kill them and they stop cutting people's arms off. Then the MP's come in, the CA and Med units go to work, after the main threat is eliminated.

The EO action in SL demonstrated the effectiveness of a focused, small unit effort in restoring order. EO didn't get involved in peacekeeping, their mandate was to secure the diamond fields. Their presence while doing their job provided an environment where the NGO's could do their job.

You don't believe that rangers are infantry??? I think that they're the best light infantry unit in the world, bar none, with specialist capabilities. To quote "The 75th Ranger Regiment, composed of three Ranger battalions, is the premier light-infantry unit of the United States Army. Headquartered at Fort Benning, Georgia, the 75th Ranger Regiment's mission is to plan and conduct special missions in support of U.S. policy and objectives." The link is http://users.aol.com/armysof1/Ranger.html

EO did provide those specialist services. However (I'll have to dig for the specific references on the AMPM and PMC's lists at e-groups) their initial operation to take back the diamond fields was a company size operation, that set the field for the follow on operations.

You can say Lome accords all you want. I believe that western politicians shit themselves when they saw how easily and effectively EO did what they were hired to do. The side effects of their presence enabled those NGO's working in SL to do a hell of a good job (this is on record, EO coordinated efforts with the NGO's). Basically the EO made the UN look like the bunch of squabbling, ineffectual jerks they are. They had to get EO out of SL before noticeable public comparisons were made between the UN's peacekeeping efforts with thousands of troops vs EO's efforts with a few hundred. EO has never had more than ~2000 troops at any one time. The thing that bothered the politicians was the overwhelming effectivness that was provided by a private company in an area where "governments" are supposed to hold sway. And again, EO wasn't there for peacekeeping, their job was to simply secure the diamond mines/fields.

As long as our gi's are going to be involved in these operations, why not follow a model that has shown itself to be the most effective by far. I'm not advocating the use of PMC's for this role, because I realize that various governments can't bring themselves to admit that a private company can do better then they can when it comes to peacekeeping.

That is why I suggested a role for the rangers as an initial strike force. Again, identify, eliminate, go home and let those organizations best suited to the follow on operations get on with their job.

I know, I know, I'm an idiot and blind to the political realities of the situation. Kill the bad guys??? They're not bad guys, they're disenfranchised rebels. Cutting off people's arms, that's just local political statements.

This whole UN thing of appeasement just jerks my string. My senior med sniped a guy with an RPG in Somalia. He was working with a contingent from ________. The somalis demanded that they either hand over the sniper or pay 500? camels for the dead guy. And they wanted to hand him over. And this scenario has been repeated over and over. Now compare this with the Aussie presence in E. Timor. They don't fuck around. Close and destroy.

The reason for suggesting a ranger company/bat over a conventional infantry unit is I don't believe that a conventional unit can move fast enough or act decisively enough and would need too much support to do the same job that a ranger company with air assets could do. They could deploy, strike, clean up and go home before 1st div made it to the airfield. Probably 82d and 25th ID could do the job also but they come with a huge overhead C&C. The threat structure I'm using for this is the one in SL, not the one in Chechnya.

Okay, I've got my bulletproof on, I'm digging my hole, waiting for return fire.

Cheers,

Patrick LaRocque

[Ranger002]

P La Q,

Get some reading glasses wil ya LOL. Ranger's may not be peacekeepers but the rescue op in SL IS part of thier mission statement. I am talking about on the ground day to day "peacekeeping" not hostage rescue...Bad Guys have to know that when Delta and their little bros the Rangers are involved the SHIT is GOING to HIT the FAN LOL.
William Hazen

[Sharky]

Gee whiz Guy, why do you always have to sugarcoat everything? Why can't you ever just come right out and tell us how you feel? LOL http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

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F.I.D.O.

[Jeff Rambo]

Guy,

Do you have any applications for filling a son position? You can be my dad anyday.

LOL

- Out

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w/ Regards,
Jeff Rambo

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I Want A Four Man Team On A Midnight Run ...

[wolfhound227]

I saw it too,Mr.Jones.What really made made
mad was the reluctance to send in a team in
1993(?) to scout the crash site.Who the hell
cares if Iraq gets all bent out of shape because we sneak into their country.Especially to recover the remains of
one of our dead pilots.Plus they would'nt have known.Exept that we told them what we wanted to do.
Discraceful.

[soup82]

"Sending the Rangers on a peacekeeping mission...Would be like putting Mike Tyson in a ring with an amateur for a title fight and telling him "DON'T HIT HIM TO HARD". Figure the odds...My thinking of the situation...Somebody is going down for the count, PERMANENTLY."

Exactly. I don't see using the rangers as a peaceKEEPING force. I see using them as a PeaceMAKING force. And that means doing what rangers do best. Destroy things. When the bad guys are dead, they go home. THEN, the peacekeepers move in and... keep the peace.

This would solve the problem of situations started simply to get world attention. If getting the worlds attention meant having a planeload of death dropped on top of you, they might think twice about it.

Obviously, I have my own attitude towards being the world's policemen. I don't think we should be doing it. From Somalia, to Haiti, to Kosovo, it has generally been a waste of time, and worse, a waste of good soldiers lives. But if we are going to send our people in, then I believe in using a sledgehammer to kill a fly, with the hope that it will cause others to think twice about the possibility of the US getting involved. Personally, I don't see a single stinking situation in any of these countries worth the life of one GI.

Think I'll follow the lead of others and shut up on this subject.

Cheers,

Patrick LaRocque

[Sharky]

I have to admit that larock has got a valid point. Although I prefer to just keep our troops out of it entirely. Fuck it. Let em kill each other. Not our problem. I think we should be using our military to take care of our own problems, not everybody else's.

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F.I.D.O.

[Snake]

I got a question I've been dying to ask:

Do any of my fellow killers (of any Service), actually give a shit if -every- wog in Kosovo, Africa, and Afghanista kills themselves?


Snake
25th ID(L)

[Ranger002]

I abhor suffering and pain and wish it on no one. I care, but what can I do? Nothing except have alot of compassion for the innocent and help when and if I can. "Imagine all the people living life in peace" "You may say I'm a dreamer,but I'm not the only one" ( Apologies to JL)
William Hazen
"Experiance can breed love and wisdom or hatred and fear... the choice is yours alone to make".Dharma Talk 1998

[Sharky]

You'll have to excuse Hazen folks. They didn't have those "Just Say No!" commercials when he was coming up. It's really not his fault. Peer pressure you know. I hear he still wears flowers in his hair and has Jimi Hendrix/Woodstock flashbacks. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif Me, Fuck em. Let em kill each other. I couldn't care less. Better them than me. It's been going on since the beginning of time and It ain't gonna stop anytime soon. Just the way of the world. A world without conflict would be boring anyway.

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F.I.D.O.

[Snake]

BTW,
Some major think tanks and pros are saying that, between HIV and Social Disruption, in 20 years, there -may- be about 1 or 2 million people left in Sub-saharan Africa. Most of them being Afrikaaners....
Good for my people, bad for th rest of that crowd. Wanna take bets on the kind of land-rush taking place once the demographics go into freefall?

Snake
25th ID(L)

[Ranger002]

Sharky and Snakey,

You guys are such big meanies!!! I am sending both of you to bed WITHOUT DESSERT!!!
William Lovebeaded Malibu Peacenik Surf Guru Hazen

[Ranger002]

Hey Man just so you know

A good ten guys in my platoon were on acid my first night after RIP... Let us just say that my newbie rites of passage were very interesting...
William Ownsley Splash 4 way window pane Hazen

[soup82]

My wife is Afrikaaner and I have friends and family involved in business in SA and Zim. My wife is pretty moderate, but I've got in-laws to the political right of Hitler. I've been on trips to SA, Zim, and Mozambique. SA is scary, can you say situational hyperawareness. Every single person I know from SA has been robbed at some time. My wife's family went out for a bite to eat last Feb. They came home and the entire house was bare. Zim is absofuckinglutely incredible, except if you're not careful, you become a link in the food chain. The Shona are pretty cool, with incredible artistic ability, and whites in Zim are a different breed altogether. World class party animals. We were actually looking to settle in Zim, on the southern side of Lake Kyle (Mutirykwe???)where I wanted to start a kayak tour business, just before Mugabe went nuts. Now you can't buy diesel and business is going downhill. 200 people a day die from Aids. Funerals are a growth business and there is some serious social unrest coming. The middle generation has been devasted, that is the breadwinners, business people, the ones who take care of the old people and raise the young ones. A friend of mine has a publishing business in Harare, the capital. In the past few years he has had to make some horrific decisions. Some of his best people needed aids drugs, which are very expensive. He bought the drugs, but it was too late. It really is horrible. Africa lives on the labor of its people. When this group of people goes, everyone is affected. The earnings of one man in SA or Zim can support up to 100 people. The unoffical infection rate in the SA mines is 60%. Besides that, there is an ongoing assassination pogrom targeting white farmers in the transvaal. Whole families killed, 2 to 3 shots, no lights, suspected use of NVG's, all the hallmarks of trained hit squads. The farmers are carrying automatic weapons, and check on each other by radio. The army is ineffectual, and they don't have the organization, political power or money to have an end put to these guys.

Mozambique is okay, coast is great, but all the game is dead from the civil war. Petty theft is a constant, but no serious threats. My enduring image of Mo' is seeing the women working their butts off in the hot sun, while the men sleep under the tree. Still trying to convince the wife that this is the way things should be. I left two days before the rains and floods started, so I don't know what it's like now.

Next family trip is to Zambia, which I've been told is even better than Zim.

I don't know about 1 or 2 million, but the African population is definitely going to take a nose dive. I guess it could be compared to the Black Plague or the flu epidemic in the early 1900's, except this strikes at those in the prime of their life.

South Africa is the economic glue that holds Southern Africa together. If it goes to shit, it takes a big chunk with it. I know 3d group guys are busy, but I bet optempo goes through the roof in the next few years. I also believe that CA and MED missions are going to be a growth business also.

Cheers,

Patrick LaRocque

[Snake]

My Mother is Afrikaaner, from Salisbury (where I was born), which is now Harare...
Funnily enough, my Wife is Afrikaaner too, albeit 2 generations removed from the Soil.
Yeah, some of the family is politically to the Right of Attilla the Hun, but based on their experiences, I can understand where they're coming from.
In Sub-Saharan Africa, the black middle class is being gutted by HIV and social disruption. These are the folks who keep the water and power and vaccines running. When they go, everything goes into freefall.
The Afrikaaners will just form a Kraal and fight it out. I expect to see them redominate the AO from the Cape to the Zambezi. Not too mention all the SANDF guys who are Afrikaaners too....Mbeki's days are numbered.

Snake
25th ID(L)

[G]

Hi Guys

I try to keep out of politics as far as possible, but I saw the conversation and had to put in my 2 (Australian) cents (which is worth about -2 US cents :-))

Snake - there is one minor problem with what you say. Yes I agree that millions of people are dying because of HIV etc....but at the same time, hundreds of thousands of whites are leaving SA. Melbourne, Sydney and Perth are becoming S.African colonies. There are so many of us it`s almost unbelievable. Basically the population is dropping across the board.

The other thing - the scary "white right" in S.Africa and all the former SADF guys. They are not a major problem (or any problem) to the authorities. I have good info from Police STF officers that have had to go in against them, that the "white right" are demotivated, dispirited and generally uninterested in fighting. Instead, they`re all leaving.

Many former SADF soldiers are spending more time at the local pub talking about what they wish they could be doing, than actually doing anything.

Lastly, the threat to South Africa right now is much more insidious (Is that a word?) than most people would imagine. Look to the 19 bombings that have taken place in Cape Town so far this year for the REAL problem.

Take care...

G

[soup82]

G's right (IMHO) Dubai is stuffed full of SA expats. My wife was one of the first five nurses to come to the Emirates in 94. Two years later, the influx started and they have actually replaced the Brits as middle management. The Afrikaaners have never been a viable political force, in my wife's words, "They're their own worst problem, they keep stabbing each other in the back." AFAIK there are 4 distinct political groups of whites - Afrikaaner and British, each divided into northern and southern groups, with plenty of infighting. I've had several tell me that they believe the Zulu will be the salvation of SA. South Africa wasn't a country until the Brits united it by force. It was a series of separate enclaves and countries (Orange Free State, Natal, Transvaal, Cape Town) It could splinter back into these enclaves again. The whites from Zim (yeah, yeah, Rhodesia or whatever) are a different breed, different attitudes. They produce 90% of Zim's foreign exchange (dollars) and that is why they've been targeted by Mugabe in the land reposessions. My friends grew up during the insurgency and they have some pretty interesting tales, like being mortared at night when they were kids.

These expat S. Afrikaans have some interesting potential. Generally, they have good education, motivation and are actively recruited as employees. In five years, there will be a sizeable portion of S. Africans with excellent international business skills. And they all still identify themselves with SA (how many SA wheelcovers and stickers have you seen today). If the gov can get past the race thing (figure the odds) and invite these people back and provide small business support, they could actually turn SA business around, which means providing jobs in a country with 40% unemployed. Ooops, reality just kicked in, what a pipe dream.

SA kids don't wear cleats to play rugby until they reach 16. They play barefoot. I thought I was tough, until I watched my 5'2", 105 lb wife make a flying five foot tackle.

Aftereffects of marrying a Boer.

I don't even say barbecue anymore - I say braai.

I'm used to the non-english speaking in-laws referring to me as the "Engelsman" (Pisses me off to no end). My wife had to explain to me there are only two kinds of white people - Boer and Engelsman.

I'm addicted to biltong, drievours and bourevours. Hell, I've made my own 'tong.

You think that man can live on three different kinds of meat a day, and vegetables are something you might eat on holidays, except for pap and sauce.

Everyone thinks my name is 'SisPat' as in Sis! Pat, you didn't buy me flowers.

Lekker, eh.

Cheers,

Patrick LaRocque

[baboon]

Patrick-who told you that, I wore boots from when I was 13! I hope you support the Springboks in rugby and the Proteas in cricket (yes they are still the greatest)
You talk about Afrikaans and " British " groups but remember English-speaking South Africans are of all kinds of ancestry, not just British but from Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Italy, the Baltic states ( where most South African Jews trace their ancestry from ), and many other places. There are still a lot of "real" Brit expats here too.

Re Zambia- apparently there is good cash to be made up there with the copper mines being privatised. I spoke to an ex-Zimbo who has been doing electrical work up there recently and he confirmed this. It is much more stable than most African countries. A friend of mine used to work in a safari operation up there and he loved it.

Re the right-wing whites - well they are well and truly finished. Eugene and his boys were always a bit of a joke.

Re emigration- G is right, right now I reckon I know more people in London than Joburg. I also know quite a few who have gone to the States, New Zealand or Israel.

[soup82]

I was at one of the semi finals for Currie Cup in 96, after the main event, the kids came on and they weren't wearing shoes. Thats when I was told that they didn't wear boots till 16. Still played better than I ever did with em. I've supported the 'boks through thick and thin for the past 4 years. Tri-nations makes the 6 Nations look like an amateurs league. Cricket cures insomnia, fast. Has anyone committed suicide yet and blamed it on Cronje? As far as the different ethnic groups, I don't live in SA, so this is what I've been told. My sister in law is married to a Greek, and I've been told there are lots of them, Lebanese, Indians, etc. Not surprised about the Portuguese, considering Angola and Mozambique "No faz mal". I really haven't been in SA long enough to get a good feel for it, but hopefully we'll be hitting Zambia soon.

As far as the AWB, I don't think any of them are that far right, I'm talking more about attitudes than action. I remember hearing that quite a few AWB farmers have been recruited to Mozambique and some other country I can't remember because they're damn good farmers.

Dubai Sevens is coming up, looking forward to another battle between SA and Fiji. I'll be the fat bastard in the pink shirt playing for Barrelhouse. I've been told that I've played in the Dubai Sevens four times in the past six years, funny, I can't seem to remember any of them. Evidently it was a hell of a party;-)

Peacekeeping, where were we. Alright, Col. Spicer has left Sandline to set up his own agency. He gave a talk recently to some British liberal? group about the use of PMC for peacekeeping, what happened with EO, etc. Apparently they went ready to hate him, and left with some admiration for him. One of my buds was in his army unit, apparently his men worshipped the ground he walked on. And, some survey was grabbed by a paper. I can't remember numbers but something like 60% of the officers surveyed said they received no job satisfaction from the military due to optempo, micromanagement, and no enforcement of training doctrine and not enough training. If I can find the link, I'll post it.

Cheers,

Patrick LaRocque

[recce_o]

Snake,

Got any links to those studies on HIV you cited earlier?

[Snake]

I lurk on the History and politics MessageBoard, on www.warships1.com (http://www.warships1.com)
some fairly highspeed thinktank guys hang there. Guy named Stuart Slade is the resident harbinger of doom. He is(was) involved in a lot of classified nuclear conflict stuff. He can link you to the actual studies. Another interesting person is Colonel Supatra, whom I knew of previously by reputation. She is a MP officer in the Royal Thai Army. "Coup's R Us", ya know?

Snake
25th ID(L)