Defend.net

[PBR549xxx]

Sorry, I put the wrong title on the original thread. Heres the URL for the forum

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/index.php?s=

[NWPTrainer]

Interesting thread you mentioned. I read all they way through it. SFC Larsen makes his points repeatedly. The problem is the people he is making it to aren't gonna accept it. I hate to say it, but he's wasting his time and energy on them. The FAS stuff IS great, but too many people are turning it into some Shaolin Temple, unbeatable fighting art mythological Holy Grail.
Your points are good too incidentally.
I am composing a response now, but am typing it on Word to cut and paste.

RLTW

[fish78]

The following comments on ground fighting are from Dan Webre, he makes some valid points. I read the thread and have encountered SFC Larson on another board...I am glad that someone is actually trying to develop a system. I am one of those that fall into the FAS camp because the idea is not to fight, but to take the other guy out as quickly as possible...I am too old and too sick to try to grapple or even think about defense...I believe in a preemrtive first strike...eyes, throat, carotid sinus back of the neck. Remember the following are Dam webre's words, not mine...FWIW Dan has done a considerable amount of time in Camp Fed in Kansas.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tony, I have never counted, but I have had enough bullshit go down in my life to last a few lifetimes. I have had maybe a handfull of guys try to take me to the ground. They were all at parties and football games and the like in highschool.
Maybe its just Im damn good at following my game . I have not clinched (not really) or wrestled, nor have I personally had someone take me down since. I have had more problems post highschool , then during highschool. A lot more........Higher stakes too.
Maybe when they were ducking and trying to hug me they were trying to wrestle, I never stopped to ask. They never faired well.
I did get in a heated discussion with some guys I know about this topic, and he did shoot for my legs , and I went down. He asked me to get up , because he had my hand digging into his throat (think eagle claw) and my other hand digging by his eye. All I had to do was reach to the side , and under as he closed.
He was done, and if it would have been more then rough , horseplay, I would have squeezed , and scooped. He would have been beyond fucked.
Now matter how they come in , their eyes, throat, back or sides of neck are vulnerable. As well as their spine, ears , top of the head or hair (a quick yank , can do wonders)
In real life my other friends would have happily (more then you know) played a quick game of soccer with his head, at the same time.
In training , when students try they get put down , before they shoot , or clinch or anything. I dont put too much thought into it, I just act in a way where they are eating strikes, fists, palms, elbows , knees, whatever before it gets to the ground.
In the William /Emin episode , I have a video "Dynamic Wing Tsun" from http://wle.com that shows , while grainy, that Emin has his foot behind Chuengs leg and uses a circling step to put him down. They show it in real time as well as slow motion from different angles. Emin is chain punching , using elbows, and sweeps away Chuengs arms several times before Emin just kneeled on them.
They have a book by the same name that I would strongly reccomend. It has some photos from 1973 of Lueng Ting's brother who after knocking someone on his ass, continuing to pound on the guy, while crouching above him , in a straddle type of position. The guy he beat down was hospitalized.
He did not go for a takedown, he just used strikes , until he went down, and kept him there, by beating the fuck out of him.
On the street as an adult , I have seen variations of this.
I have still not seen "Gracie sport style" or UFC style of the "gaurd" and such take place anywhere.
Too many other more efficient ways do put someone away, without exposing yourself to the very high risk of getting your head kicked in. (3rd highest cause of death, in street fights,other then shootings, or stabbings) They are kicked by someone who is standing up, not trying to arm bar them to death.
Hit them first, Hit them fast, Hit them furiously.......Do not stop.
take their breath, vision, and balance. A guy who is flying
backwards ,while biend ruthlessly attacked in his vital areas , who is gasping for air, and cant see or stand, may go to the ground,and stay there. They just wont be successful in taking someone there themselves.
If you fuck up, and do not folow the above strategy for physical confriontations, then sure all of the so called fighting ranges may come into play.
If you go down, unless its on a female get the fuck up, and do it fast, period. Train to prevent it, and get up in case you slip, or srew up. Other then that they barely cover the ground in BRAZIL, other then for SPORT ONLY. For the street they teach, prevention, and to get up......They did not fall for the b.s. that they sold to the rest of the world. Maybe because they knew what they were selling.........They saw a great marketing opportunity and seized it . They saw a western weakness , and exploited it.
If you ever trained in B.J.J. you can see how smart a business move it was. Anyone, who uses the word B.J.J. who is from Brazil, must pay a kickback to a certain family. You will never guess which one.........
The late great , Camillo de Almeida was an instructor of Guilherme's and another members here. He also posted here. Under the drop step posts, he called it the "trigger step" and on some other principals that I teach. He gave up fame , and fortune, because he wouldnt play ball , and sell out.
He was also heavily into blade work. This was an old, wise man.
Yep, they have knives in Brazil too. Go figure. A knife expert and striking expert in Brazil? He could choke you standing , and snap your neck standing a million ways also. Did he teach groundfighting? Nope........Does Guilherme ? Nope.......
Are they allowed to use the name B.J.J. nope, not unless they want to be sued, among other things.......Fuck that bullshit......
Dan

[XS2]

I have not clinched (not really) or wrestled, nor have I personally had someone take me down since.

Another of these mythical gods who are too darn good to be taken down to the ground.:rolleyes:

Now matter how they come in , their eyes, throat, back or sides of neck are vulnerable.

Just are his, in addition to his legs, arms, head, ballance...:rolleyes:

As well as their spine, ears , top of the head or hair (a quick yank , can do wonders)

I really wouldn't mind knowing just what he does that makes him invulnerable against these dastardly tactics.:rolleyes:

In real life my other friends would have happily (more then you know) played a quick game of soccer with his head, at the same time.

Just as well he can count on the other guy not having friends to help him once he has taken the guy down.:rolleyes:

In the William /Emin episode...

Say no more. Anyone that tries to use Emin as a source to defend against grappling must be joking!:D I obviously missed the sarcasm.:o

I have still not seen "Gracie sport style" or UFC style of the "gaurd" and such take place anywhere.

Well if one person who has never trained in grappling has never seen it, clearly it must be useless!:rolleyes: I will now have to look elsewhere for those times when I get caught on the bottom of a fight.

They are kicked by someone who is standing up, not trying to arm bar them to death.

Too bad BJJ doesn't teach you how to get up from the ground...wait a minute, it does!:rolleyes:

If you go down, unless its on a female get the fuck up, and do it fast, period.

I knew there was a reason I trained escapes, reversals and sweeps.:rolleyes: Pitty he never heard of them.

Anyone, who uses the word B.J.J. who is from Brazil, must pay a kickback to a certain family.

No they don't. They only have to pay to use the trademarked name of a family, such as Gracie Jiujitsu or Machado Jiujitsu.

In this day and age there really is no excuse for propagating rubbish like this. These 'I'm too good to be taken down' types stopped being funny and became tiresome a while back.

[fish78]

Dan Webre is a former criminal who spent a number of years in federal lock up as well as state prison...He now, is a highly paid bodyguard and teaches a very few select students in NO...He is well connected in Brazil and has gone there to train( had help from the State Dept regaining a passport) One of the posters on Dan's forum is a BJJ instructor in Brazil...you may try to see if Dan will allow you on his forum.
It is private and he screens each applicant...just don't tell him it was I who sent you.
From experience, I can normally tell who can fight in the real world, Dan is one , Carl Cestari another...most of the so called experts haven't been in a life or death fight ever...thaoe who have experiece are usually sport oriented...nothing wrong with that, but it does not suit MY needs.

[XS2]

Not saying combat sports are for everyone, the only solution, or the best solution, but there were things in that post that were somewhat hokey.

BJJ in particular seems to be a popular martial art that people who have never trained in it like to pick on because 'you don't want to go to the ground in a real fight', as if training in grappling means you automatically have to go to the ground in every single fight, yet offer no real alternatives for the problem of ground fighting beyond wishful thinking and saying "get up".

Why is it people only ever pick on BJJ, and never Judo or Sambo, or Turkish oil wrestling...?

[fish78]

Dan has made the point that BJJ that is taught here in the US is only faintly related to what is taught in Brazil...Much less emphasis on the ground in Brazil...Nobody I know wants to go to the ground if it can be avoided... Tap outs from arm bars DO NOT happen in the real world...Dan's eye gouge and webhand to the throat is but one way to deal with the shoot...but if you take away the ability to see and breathe, your opponent can not fight very much...try it and see for yourself.

[XS2]

BJJ as taught outside of Brazil is the exact same as what is taught inside Brazil, but common sense will dictate that what is used in sport is different to what is used for self defence due to the two completely different venu's. The problem is people think the sport aspect of BJJ is all that exists.

You are right about tap outs not happening in the real world though. It would just be an arm break.

If his solution to the shoot does not contain the word 'sprawl' at least somewhere, I would be extremely dubious. If you don't protect your ballance, you are going to be taken down.

[sta marine]

I agree with some of Dan Webres points, and I'm a wrestler... The ground isnt the best place in a street fight. I don't know him or his style... I grapple and I love it. Its not the holy grail of martial arts, but I enjoy it. For those of you like me who train BJJ next time you roll tell your partner to use the eye gouge, fish hook, biting etc... Just like any other submission dont go all out, but I've tried rolling with a rubber knife and those moves and let me tell you it adds a whole new element...

[Daredevil]

Eye gouge, eagle claw, ok.

There are very few people with enough accuracy in their finger jab that they can reliably hit someone in the eye when they are coming in on a shoot, and an arm extended for an eagle claw throat grab will be quickly broken by any BJJ guy who isn't a beginner.

Shaolin Kung Fu guys have tried these same things repeatedly, and they've repeatedly haven't worked.

[Daredevil]

XS2 is dead on. Anyone using Emin Bozetepe as a source doesn't realize what joke he is even among the Wing Chun community he claims to come from.

[fish78]

Take it up with Dan...It is my understanding the Emin will fight anybody anywhere, so maybe a match can be made if you or EXS want.

[XS2]

Originally posted by fish78
Take it up with Dan...It is my understanding the Emin will fight anybody anywhere, so maybe a match can be made if you or EXS want.

So lets get childish about it shall we!:rolleyes: If I can beat someone up, it doesn't make the crap coming out of my mouth or from my keyboard any better, but lets not have logic get in the way of things.

For those of you like me who train BJJ next time you roll tell your partner to use the eye gouge, fish hook, biting etc...

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Shut down their arms and they won't be punching, eye gouging, fish hooking, reaching for or employing weapons. If they do go for a weapon, armlock the offending limb once they expose it.

The funy thing is once you know how to maintain positional dominance from BJJ, you can also do all of those things, but with a much greater degree of success because you are not pinned, inverted and turned into a human pretzel.

[sta marine]

Originally posted by XS2
So lets get childish about it shall we!:rolleyes: If I can beat someone up, it doesn't make the crap coming out of my mouth or from my keyboard any better, but lets not have logic get in the way of things.



Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Shut down their arms and they won't be punching, eye gouging, fish hooking, reaching for or employing weapons. If they do go for a weapon, armlock the offending limb once they expose it.

The funy thing is once you know how to maintain positional dominance from BJJ, you can also do all of those things, but with a much greater degree of success because you are not pinned, inverted and turned into a human pretzel.


Really??? I'm not that good so I guess anything is possible. Don't get me wrong I love BJJ and wrestling, But I'm saying that theres lots of opportunities to get at a weapon while rolling. If I can get a neck crank on people while rolling I can get a thumb in the eye. And I say I can get to a pocket knife or boot knife while in the guard. and I dont have to expose my arm to stick a knife in the guys ass. Bottom line is this, because I dont want to argue about fighting. Its silly. The meanest person in a fight is gonna win. You can be the best grappler in the world and get knocked out, best boxer and get taken to the ground, best MMA/NHB guy and get shot. Personally I don't care. I still wrestle because I like the sport and exercise, I do muay thai for the same reason. I'm not some bad ass pro fighter.

[XS2]

But I'm saying that theres lots of opportunities to get at a weapon while rolling.

Yes, there are a lot of opportunities...once you know what those oportunities are and know how to set them up. The arseclowns who don't train in grappling and ground fighting because they think the defence against it is just a matter of chomping down won't know what those oportunities are because they haven't trained it, nor wil they know how to stop themselves from becoming prone to those exact same tactics.

For every single "well I'll just..." there is an equally simple answer to stop them doing it.

If I can get a neck crank on people while rolling I can get a thumb in the eye.

Personally, I'd rather have someone stick their finger in my eye than break my neck, but that is just me.

And I say I can get to a pocket knife or boot knife while in the guard.

Notice how you are using the guard to access a weapon? Would you still be doing that if you didn't know what the guard was?

The meanest person in a fight is gonna win.

I'd say the most skilled person in a fight is more likely to win.

You can be the best grappler in the world and get knocked out, best boxer and get taken to the ground, best MMA/NHB guy and get shot.

All the more reason to cross train and not look for the single all consuming answer.

[sta marine]

Hey just so we know I'm a grappler, and I don't want to not be on the grappling side... Ok that said and I dont know how to seperate those points like you do ( again I'm a wrestler) But What I meant was I can get to a knife while IN someones guard... and I NEVER said not to train in ground fighting. I LOVE MMA/NHB wrestling, grappling, BJJ. Anything close to wrestling. Ok so we have the same love, but just like you hinted at theres always a counter to anyything. And I don't necessarily think its the most skilled fighter whos gonna win. Its the meanest most agressive. I can be a very technical wrestler, boxer whatever. But if I'm timid or affraid or unwilling to employ what I know then I lose. Gatta be WILLING to break an are to succesfully employ the arm bar. you've got to be willing to break a neck, ankle, whatever in order to do it. Thats what I mean. There are lots of martial arts practicioners who when it came down to it would not kill or maim. and if your willing too then hey, you win.

[e5wsf]

First, I am a friend of e5wsf. Second, you gotta love these hardcore fishhook/I'm gonna eat your larynx self defense experts. They inaccurately assume that a BJJ practitioner is a grappling droid incapable of dealing with anything outside the sporting arena. Do you these self proclaimed mystics really think they could fight a Rickson Gracie and effortlessly put a finger in his mouth, twist his neck, finger jab him at will?? And are BJJ guys incapable of doing "dirty" techniques and tactics?? Yeah, I'm sure that Rickson would be incapable of administering such an athletic move as a fishhook.....way to advanced for a BJJ person. Cmon, it all comes down to the individual and the skill set/attributes they possess. There are bad ass Jiu Jitsu, Wing Chun and even point fighting guys out there. It just depends on the person, their opponent and the situation-environment the conflict is occuring in. Hopefully, the person in the conflict takes into account all the variables and makes the right choice.

And to premise the above argument with my own background, I have been training in the martial arts for approx 20 years. I have studied Karate, Arnis, Wing Chun, Western Boxing, Kickboxing and BJJ. And unfortunately, within each of these sytles are closed minded individuals who need a style worship much like jokers who kiss some cult leaders ass. For these individuals, let's let them do their thing. They will never change and can be quite entertaining/amusing once you accept their intellectual shortcomings. On the other hand, I have met people in all the above styles who have the same discussion we are having on this forum. They understand the limit of styles and are aware of the difference between sport and street. I have had professional boxers tell me the best way to fight on the street is to forget the boxing and go for the takedown/eye attack/ground and pound etc. I have had TKD guys straight up tell me their stuff is more or less useless in real life situations and you know what? They are okay with that. They just like doing their thing.

"Just shut up and train"-Me and many others

"Never interrupt an enemy while they are making a mistake" -Napolean

"If you even dream of beating me you better wake up and apologize." - Ali

[XS2]

But if I'm timid or affraid or unwilling to employ what I know then I lose.

If you are unwilling to use what you know then you are not a skilled fighter, not that I disagree with what you are saying though.

[fish78]

I think that at least some of you missed my point. I have nothing against BJJ. It has been mentioned that BJJ is much more than going to the ground...that WAS my point entirely...Yes as an old fat bad heart guy...I would rather preempt the deal and blind, crush the throat, or if nothing else bang the philatum(sp?)...the key to old guy, out of shape, weak, whaever is a preemptive first strike and foeward drive and DO NOT let up...I know from experience. I try not to be caught unarmed, but if I am, I do not wait for the otherguy to move first...Itake a passive agressive posture, and if ANYTHING goes against the grain I strike first...so far I am not in jail. It is simply a matter of mindset...in a controled environment where there are rules..i will leave to you younguns and whatever you do is fine, but when I have to save my sorry ass...watch out I will go for the throat every time.
Still here.
fish

[sta marine]

Originally posted by fish78
I think that at least some of you missed my point. I have nothing against BJJ. It has been mentioned that BJJ is much more than going to the ground...that WAS my point entirely...Yes as an old fat bad heart guy...I would rather preempt the deal and blind, crush the throat, or if nothing else bang the philatum(sp?)...the key to old guy, out of shape, weak, whaever is a preemptive first strike and foeward drive and DO NOT let up...I know from experience. I try not to be caught unarmed, but if I am, I do not wait for the otherguy to move first...Itake a passive agressive posture, and if ANYTHING goes against the grain I strike first...so far I am not in jail. It is simply a matter of mindset...in a controled environment where there are rules..i will leave to you younguns and whatever you do is fine, but when I have to save my sorry ass...watch out I will go for the throat every time.
Still here.
fish

I think we all pretty much agree on the key points of fighting. Hurt the other guy as much and as fast as you can. The only problem I see with the pre-emptive strike is the legal aspect. You will definatley go to jail for blinding a man before he attacks you. I know what your saying, however, the courts deal in hindsite. Why didn't you run? etc. etc. anyway, In a street fight you punch, kick, grapple whatever....

[NWPTrainer]

Originally posted by sta marine
In a street fight you punch, kick, grapple whatever....


Screw it...hit em with a brick......

RLTW

[sta marine]

Fuckina man...fuckina :D

[DY]

This thread reminds of a story about a guy I know. He intervened on a bully (to save the day!). The guy was high and very very large. Several kick to the groin did not phase him. At that point I think my buddy was rather scared. He put a thumb IN the guys eye socket. The fight stopped when the guy got distracted by LE and my buddy ran. A year later he saw the guy and was wearing an eye patch. Indiana Jones comes to mind. Take care.

[Daredevil]

Originally posted by fish78
Take it up with Dan...It is my understanding the Emin will fight anybody anywhere, so maybe a match can be made if you or EXS want.

Emin says that but has been challenged several times and hasn't delivered. That's part of why no one pays attention to him anymore.

[XS2]

That's part of why no one pays attention to him anymore.

You make it sound like people paid attention to what he was saying to start with.:p