Charlie Wilson's War by George Crile

[Jimbo]

Read it. Well written with great insights.

[Kiowa5]

i bought this book the day after it came out. so it is a valid publication?

[HoosGhost]

Definitely the kind of Representative I'd like to be.

[DunbarFC]

I agree

A very well written book

[Roguish Lawyer]

I just started it. Through about the first quarter. Well written and very interesting.

[Sigi]

I thought it was a great book for 2 reasons.

1) I learned a little about the Afghan/Soviet war from the US perspective.

2) It was really easy to read, almost like a novel.

Maybe that is why I liked C Wilson so much after I read the book.

I liked Gust Avrakotos, the CIA station chief, as well. That guy should have his own book based on what I read in this book.

[Surf n Turf]

Originally posted by Jimbo
Read it. Well written with great insights.


Jimbo,

If , after the Soviets departed, we had continued with a normalized relationship with Afghanistan, do you think that we would have the GWOT today ??.

I guess what I’m asking is --- was it bound to happen anyway, or did the vacuum in the country cause the Taliban, OBL, etc.

SnT

[Jimbo]

The short answer is that there was quite a bit of fighting between the Afghan factions even before the Soviets pulled out. I don't know what role the US could have played after the Afghan war.

Perhaps Airbornelawyer could drop some science here.

Also, I highly recommend reading Ghost Wars in conjunction with Charlie Wilson's War.

[airbornelawyer]

Originally posted by Surf n Turf
If , after the Soviets departed, we had continued with a normalized relationship with Afghanistan, do you think that we would have the GWOT today ??. "Normalized relationship" with whom?

[DunbarFC]

Originally posted by Jimbo
The short answer is that there was quite a bit of fighting between the Afghan factions even before the Soviets pulled out. I don't know what role the US could have played after the Afghan war.

Perhaps Airbornelawyer could drop some science here.

Also, I highly recommend reading Ghost Wars in conjunction with Charlie Wilson's War.

Jimbo have you read "The Main Enemy: The Inside Story of the CIA's Final Showdown with the KGB by Milton Bearden and James Risen" ?

If you had wondered what you thought about their section on Afghanistan

[Amarillo]

In many instances I think the book reads like a black comedy about SOP inside the Beltway. I think George Crile wrote a lot of it with his tongue in his cheek.

Definitely the kind of Representative I'd like to be.

To his credit he took pretty good care of his constituents, but he really only latched onto one issue of national importance (if the book portrays him accurately). I also think he was demonstrably manipulated into his zealous attachment to the muj. Imagine how much more effective he might have been to that cause (and others?) without the cocaine, Scotch-abuse, etc. Not throwing stones here. I'm just glad I'm me -- not him.

[Doogie320]

Good book and well written though I think it overstates CW's impact on the war/ American assistance.

[Massgrunt]

Great book. My roomate's reading Ghost Wars, i'll have to get that when he's done.

[Amarillo]

Soon to be a major motion picture (http://www.hollywood.com/movies/detail/id/3464590). (As with most transitions from book to movie, prepare to be disappointed.)

[Dark Helmet]

Reading it now, as a matter of fact.

[Nadir_E]

I enjoyed the 'story' part of Charlie Wilson's War, but was actually kind of depressed by seeing just how things work in Washington - how votes are traded between representatives irrespective of the merits of each bill being voted upon (i.e. vote my way on XYZ and I'll vote your way on ABC). I'm far too idealistic I guess - I'd have like to believe each bill was reviewed and considered in isolation...

The larger story seemed to touch on a kind of national-level A.D.D. we continue to suffer from.

fwiw,
-N

[VMI_Marine]

Good book and well written though I think it overstates CW's impact on the war/ American assistance.

Agreed. IIRC, I think Ghost Wars pretty much says something to that effect. Can't remember if there was a specific passage, but I know I got that impression.

Still, an entertaining and enlightening read. I read the book by the ISI brigadier several years ago (Afghanistan: Bear Trap by Mohammed Yousaf). Yousaf minimizes the American contribution and plays up the ISI's role, but Charlie Wilson's War and Ghost Wars both disprove his assertions.

[MakoZeroSix]

Very entertaining read. And laugh out loud amusing at times. The whole cocaine/whiskey womanizing aspect of his shennanigans only made it even funnier. Like if Hunter S. Thompson had been a politician instead of a journalist.

[Luke]

What bothered me the most was CW's reckless ignorance of Afghan cultural and religious beliefs. Bringing his latest provocatively-clad conquest to meetings with Muslim tribal leaders could have been disastrous.

I know "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", but he was buddying up with the likes of Gulbuddin and didn't seem to care about future consequences. They got Stingers for crying out loud. Oh well, hindsight is 20/20.

[Jimbo]

What bothered me the most was CW's reckless ignorance of Afghan cultural and religious beliefs. Bringing his latest provocatively-clad conquest to meetings with Muslim tribal leaders could have been disastrous.

I know "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", but he was buddying up with the likes of Gulbuddin and didn't seem to care about future consequences. They got Stingers for crying out loud. Oh well, hindsight is 20/20.


5 years into the GWOT, we have people in positions of great import to national security who cannot tell you whether AQ is Sunni or Shia, let alone the difference between the two.

You are right about his shortsightedness, but keep in mind there were others helping make that call. Like the new SECDEF. Oops.

[airbornelawyer]

What bothered me the most was CW's reckless ignorance of Afghan cultural and religious beliefs. Bringing his latest provocatively-clad conquest to meetings with Muslim tribal leaders could have been disastrous.

I know "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", but he was buddying up with the likes of Gulbuddin and didn't seem to care about future consequences. They got Stingers for crying out loud. Oh well, hindsight is 20/20.
Their ignorance of Afghan culture wasn't "reckless". It was indifferent. To far too many of the cold warriors of that period, Afghan culture didn't mean shit. Neither did Nicaraguan culture, Angolan culture (anyone know the difference between an Ovambo and an Ovimbundu?) or Cambodian culture. All that mattered was that they wanted to kill commies, and that helped us put the Soviets on the defensive, which served our strategic interests.

As soon as the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan in 1989, and especially when the Soviets withdrew from the Soviet Union in 1991, the powers-that-be stopped giving a shit about the Afghans. Those of us who actually cared found ourselves at best a quaint relic of a bygone era and at worst a nuisance.

Regarding Hekmatyar, there are two considerations. As noted, the "let's kill us some commies"* crowd didn't care about the internal politics among Afghan factions; all they cared about was that the Afghans used the weapons. Those of us who were concerned, though, lacked leverage because there were too many of the aforementioned American folk who were indifferent and there were far too many of Brigadier Yousaf's comrades who cared very deeply. Pakistan, especially its Islamist-dominated senior officer corps and ISI, had and has no interest in seeing Afghanistan dominated by (i) Pushtun nationalists like the former King's supporters who might advocate a Greater Pushtunistan including Pakistan's NWFP, (ii) non-Pushtuns like the Tajik-dominated party of Burhanuddin Rabbani and Ahmad Shah Massoud which might fragment the country, leading back to (i), or (iii) Communists like the Soviet stooges who would alienate everybody, empowering (i) and (ii) and again possibly leading back to (i). The Pakistanis sought to empower an Islamist front man who wouldn't care about Pushtun nationalism and would keep Afghanistan together under a political/religious philosophy consistent with that of Pakistan's own Jamaat-e-Islami.

First choice, more or less, was Abd-ur-Rab-ur-Rasul Sayyaf, a pseudo-Wahhabi wannabe heavily funded by the Saudis. But he's always been a hanger-on, a bit of a parasite, with no real following except what he can pay for each day. Gulbuddin Hekmatyar seemed like a much better choice. Quite a fanatic (and his college day communist leanings were easily forgiven). Of course, Hekmatyar eventually proved not quite the optimal choice, so the Pakistanis found recruits among the students in the religious schools run in the Afghan refugee camps where a generation or two of Afghan kids were raised on little but religion and revenge. The Pashto and Dari word for "students": taliban.

_________________________

* BTW, I know this sounds glib. I had my "kill a commie for mommie" T-shirt too, but I was also trying to think about the consequences.