Marine infantry

[Captnemisis]

Is the Marine infantry the same skill level of the army ranger's? They say they are. They can do all the stuff ranger's do and more.

[Mike]

except that all the Rangers are airborne-trained and most Marines (recon exemtped) are not. How about the RMCP? They are very good pallbearers.

[Ranger002]

ahhhhem... You are comparing Apples and Oranges. Plus you are A Canucklehead so go bore somebody else with your stupid questions...
William Hazen

[Daredevil]

What would you expect the Marines to say?

"Yeah, we're pretty good but man those Rangers can really kick our asses!"

[JOE-BOO]

Take the top 10% of Marines.....then maybe.

that is how you a can GENERALLY figure Rangers vs. Army light Infantry.....ie. not all top 10% are in the Rangers and not all Rangers are in the top 10%, but it sounds good. I have seen nothing to show me that Marine Infantry is better than Army from a Soldier level....at times leadership from the brass....however, the grunts from the Marines tend to be more muscular and always in the gym lifting weights.

One must remember....the Rangers are a small bunch drawn from a rather large gene-pool.....who also have an incredible burn-out rate.

Answer to your Question.....no...but that is not to put Marines down....but their whole Infantry is not on the level with Rangers.... Sorry to burst anyone's bubble.

------------------

IT AIN'T THE
BARK...IT AIN'T THE
GROWL...ITS THE BITE THAT
HURTS
11ZULU

[J-Dog]

Having been on both sides of the fence I'd have to say 11ZULU stated it well. The Marine Corps Infantry dosen't differ much from other Army light Inf. units I've seen. The Corps does pride itself on a high level of motivation and discipline, much the same as the Ranger Batts.

Could USMC grunts hold thier own compared to the Rangers? I think so. I don't believe it was a matter of whos the best, but rather choices that were made when the 18 year old signed the line chosing which service to join.

Last but not least, They both have different mission requirements.

jw

[Jeff Rambo]

That and the fact that the Marine Infantry isn't SOF; The 75th Regiment is.

The Marine Infantry also operates on a larger scale than the 75th.

Zuluman hit it best with his statements.

But Marines are Marines, and Rangers are Rangers.

If you want to compare the Marine Corps Infantry with anything in the Army ... it would be the Army Infantry at a whole, w/ the 75th excluded.

And as J-Dog said ... The Corps has A COMPLETE different point in life than the Army does at a whole.

------------------
w/ Regards,
Jeff Rambo

------------------
I Want A Four Man Team On A Midnight Run ...

[RAT]

---------------------------------------------
except that all the Rangers are airborne-trained
_____________________________________________

At least we know how to drown!!!!

RAT OUT!!!

[This message has been edited by RAT (edited 10-04-2000).]

[Gary]

Not to keep this argument going but most of you are nuts!

[abn_rngrr]

Gary-

In what way?

[JOE-BOO]

What arguement would that be?

[Gary]

Well... Some crack pot comes in here and talks a little sh!t (probably already a Marine hater) and you guys go right along and start disparaging the Corps. That is why SOCNET seems to be going to sh!t. Isn't that right Zulu!?

[Jeff Rambo]

Actually Gary, from his comments I'd imagine him to be a Ranger Hater not a Marine Hater, if a Hater of anything.

My $.02

- Out

------------------
w/ Regards,
Jeff Rambo

------------------
I Want A Four Man Team On A Midnight Run ...

[abn_rngrr]

We all have our favorites but, in the end, Marines and Rangers are more alike than dissimilar. I've never met a Marine 03xx NCO that didn't wish the Marine's had the 75th Regiment's right to ditch the bottom dwellers, though.

On the other hand, regular US Army infantry seems to take a big hit on this forum. In my experience, while justified in some cases, there are some very fine infantry units the US Army. The separate Parachute Bns come to mind. As do parts of the light infantry community.

[LRSC Grunt]

Gary,
Nobody was disparaging the Marine Corps. As I have learned in the past, I think its worthless to make "whos better" comparisons. If one of your Marines started in on "whos better" how would you react to them? Would it be any different from how you react to us making the same statement. But then again, in your eyes I dont rate http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/rolleyes.gif

[Dark Helmet]

If anyone is going to compare the Ranger RGT with a USMC unit, consider USMC Recon or Force Recon (or even ANGLICO which is no longer around). They are the jarheads that hold "elite" status...."double scare badges (USMC jump wings and scuba bubble)....hard to get into, more difficult to stay there.....

Granted, missions differ, but the mutual respect is there between Rangers and Force Recon or Recon jarheads; not necessarily so with regular USMC grunts.

[Gary]

Unlike the majority of you, I won’t be drawn into a “who’s better” argument. Suffice it to say that I though this joker reeled you in hook line and sinker.

Civilianbo, Any crack pot coming in here talking sh!t about how the Marines are better than the Rangers, knows he’s going to get folk to talk shit about the Corps. Hence he must be a Marine hater!

My favorite Army Grunt, Combat discussions are where I don’t consider your opinion. Most others, are insightful or down right humorous.

Tack, After all those great posts you’ve put up here, you come up with that off the wall comment! Comparing a unit that rarely works in groups over 12 with a unit that usually works in company strength!?

See, now you’ve got me doing it!

[Dark Helmet]

Originally posted by Gary:
Tack, After all those great posts you’ve put up here, you come up with that off the wall comment! Comparing a unit that rarely works in groups over 12 with a unit that usually works in company strength!?


(sigh)

I almost didn't post that one, Gary, for fear that it would be interpreted as you did. Please note I said that "granted, missions differ". I should have put that disclaimer in bold type.

I was getting a little dismayed at the direction this post was heading; comparing a regular USMC grunt unit and its capabilities with a Ranger unit - and was trying to focus more on the degree of "eliteness" and selectivism (is that a word?) between the two branches when it comes to the SpecOps units of each.

I can tell you this......few regular USMC grunts were found in the ranks of Ranger school in my era (late eighties). Every jarhead I ever worked with, whether it be in the course of cross-training with a USMC unit at Rosey Roads naval station or in Ranger school at Benning, hailed from the Recon, Force Recon, and ANGLICO ranks of the Corps.

If one looks at the modern-day missions of the aforementioned jarhead units (save ANGLICO), one notes that it is quite similar to the mission of the Vietnam-era Ranger/LRRP. Small teams.....deep behind lines.....observe and not engage.....etc. The Ranger RGT's mission has changed, I daresay, more over the years than the Recon/Force Recon mission.

Perhaps my post would have been more valid if it were teleported back into the sixties......then maybe Hazen would have some cogent comments(!)

[Jeff Rambo]

Originally posted by Gary:
Civilianbo

Thanks for the new name. And who says Marines don't think?

I'll tap out now. Back to the West Wing Part II I go.

------------------
w/ Regards,
Jeff Rambo

------------------
I Want A Four Man Team On A Midnight Run ...

[Gary]

Tack, Those were the days. Now days, Rangers seem to operate in company or larger units. I’m trying to think of a place in the modern era where Rangers went that the Jarheads hadn’t already been or were already there. Lots of similarities there.

After sweating my ass of in your “era” let me leave you with this

RANGERS LEAD THE WAY

[Dark Helmet]

Originally posted by Gary:
Tack, Those were the days. Now days, Rangers seem to operate in company or larger units. I’m trying to think of a place in the modern era where Rangers went that the Jarheads hadn’t already been or were already there. Lots of similarities there.

After sweating my ass of in your “era” let me leave you with this

RANGERS LEAD THE WAY

Bad mood tonight, Gary? Why the chest-thumping, or am I "cyber-misinterpreting" you?

Seen your posts, respect your resume'.

Curious about that last post; appears to be bait.....

[josepy]

I think Gary like myself hold the Marine Corps, especially the infantry, sacred.

I have not had a lot of experience with Rangers but what can they do that a Marine MEU(SOC) can't?

Note: Let us put to rest the whole Airborne thing. Women go to jump school so...

------------------
The post above is the opinion of it's author and not necessarily that of everyone in the Marine Corps.

[pn]

I think the better question is "What do Rangers do that a MEU(SOC) doesn't." No dig on anyone, but you can talk all day about capabilities..

-pn

[jcollettusa]

Do you know what a MEU(SOC) is?

[abn_rngrr]

Saying unit 'A" can do this and so can unit 'B' doesn't make them equivalent. In other words, does a US Army scout platoon = a Force Recon platoon? Nope, not on your life. But they both can do recon, right?

Any objective can be reduced to a set of TTP, drills, and SOPs. Therefore any infantry unit can conduct them, right? Even those lowly US Army infantry units conduct raids. It's a part of anybody's ARTEP. The question is to what proficiency and under what circumstnaces can these missions be conducted by the respective units?


The Marine(SOC)'s, IMHO, represent a very flexible and competent part of the US capability. Ranger Bns. enjoy full personnel selectivity and year round training. Mission capabilities, to include the full suite of light infantry missions, are maintained round the clock, 100% of the time. These things are what meaningfully *differentiate* the two units. If you feel you really gotta decide "who's better" then you gotta know all the facts.

[Gary]

Tack, Just food for thought. You and I are from high-speed units that we’ll defend to the end. I have an opinion on Marine Grunts that no one will ever be able to change. Yes it is just MY humble opinion but it is based on active time in both the Army and the Corps. My last post was just in reference to also going through Ranger School in the eighties.

Semper Fi.

[SSD]

I know the Grunts sometimes wish they could pick and choose who comes to them and get rid of slackers if need be and I bet the Rangers wish they had some of the indigenous equipment a SOC has at times.

All in all, two great fighting units with a lot of storied history.

[Ted]

The Marines have a good thing going with the MEU concept. I know that there was always a great deal of wailing and gnashing of teeth in building 1276, HAAF, when the local MEU got to deploy to the local hotspot to do some mission; i.e. NEO ops in Albania and the like.

But then again, they have to be on a boat for a looong time(6 mos?) during the float. As one who has deployed on a carrier for 35 days, let me tell you: a ship is just a floating prison.

[JOE-BOO]

Gary....I must remind you that I was talking at a Soldier level....not unit level....that is a seperate issue. My experience comes from two places....as a cadet no real difference in Army or Marine...even prior Service types....normally they were more muscular but showed not more competence in basic warrior skills except marksmanship.

Then as a MRC commander who gets dismounts attached (OPFOR AUGMENTIES) I really do not see a difference at Warror level except personal appearance....now the Marines do tend to snap into action faster, but they do tend to look around at the other Marines for guidance or peer approval. It is like they would run gladly through a burning building if told to do so, but they would have to be told to do so. On the other hand we often have to round up the Soldiers (dismounts) because they went up into the hills on their own to find something to sneek up on with no worries about reporting in. "What do you mean Sand Pounder 6, that you are on the back side of hil 800. You were suppose to overwatch the Triangle from the rockpile and take out the lead M1's with AT!!!!!" "Roger Reaper 36, we saw something flash from 800 so we went to eliminate it. We killed a 1/3/38.....say, you wouldn't happen to have a green key and a pair of pliers, would you, we ran out of rounds in the Dragon and SGT Snakeater broke his leatherman trying to hotwire the MILES display. Also LT, ya got any MREs?????"

I see two different styles that are often on the opposite end of the spectrum...each effective and a headache in their own special way.

Peace, love, and firepower....

[Gary]

Zulu, my opinions are my opinions as are yours. No point in arguing, you’ll never get me to see your light. Let me leave you with this. I resigned my Army commission to get back to the Corps as a regular old enlisted man.

Semper Fi.

[Ranger002]

Jeez youse guys this like the Cowboys and Redskins arguing the merits of their teams.
BOOOORING.
William Hazen

[Whatever]

Who whacks off more, Marines or Rangers?

MW

[LRSC Grunt]

Well that depends on the situation.

1. Whacks off by themselves? Rangers

2. Whacks off their buddies? Marines

Like said before its apple to oranges http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif


(please dont take this too seriously, just a joke)

[J-Dog]

"Well there was this time I broke my arm fast roping......"

[josepy]

I really thought that no one could answer my question, just thought I would see what answers I would get.

LRSC Grunt - That was funny!

Gary - Semper

[Ranger002]

Rangers were around 50+ years before the Corps was founded ahhh shit here we go!!!
Now Jar Heads leave well enough alone will ya. The point is some like Fords some like Chevys both are American Built. The fact is While Rangers are a part of SOCOM Marines get to deploy first in some cases too. However I will point out that the Marine Brass has been running around for the last 15 years trying to find you boys something to do so that you won't be rendered obsolete (Which in my opinion would be a shame cause If I was'nt a Ranger Well...)
Anymore ill advised Jar Head Boasting on this here RANGER list server and I will tell my mommy and ask her permission to really FLAME your little Semper Fi Behinds
William Hazen SUA SPONTE Mother Fucker!!! :-)
PS TRACY I may need a rendition of your KUM BY YA LOL

[Sharky]

Why are you guys even arguing about this shit? The Marines are the absolute best at what they do and the Rangers are the absolute best at what they do. Personally, I am a former Ranger and will defend my Regiment until they bury me. If I was a Marine I would probably defend the Corps til they planted my ass. I expect nothing less from Gary, Jo, 0331 and all the rest of the jarheads. You guys do a hell of a job. We do a different job on a smaller scale than Marine Infantry. So what? Apples and oranges (again). Let's just let this one die and start acting like the professionals that we claim to be. Right now it sounds like a bunch of fucking kids.

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[msg-84]

Originally posted by RangerHazen:
Rangers were around 50+ years before the Corps was founded ahhh shit here we go!!!
Now Jar Heads leave well enough alone will ya.

I don't know about this one. I have heard that the Rangers traced their lineage back to
Major Robert Rogers and the French and Indian War - which would only be about 16 years [not 50] before 10 Nov 1775...and didn't this guy fight for the British and against the Americans during the Revolution? I don't know if we can trust these Rangers...their founder was a turncoat!

And no, Marines can never leave well enough alone..

DISCLAIMER: I have tremendous respect for Rangers, and am just busting balls...

[Ranger002]

Hey who said I could add. HA HA we were first

[Redneck Baron]

Oh Boy. The Army lineage runs to 1607 and certain militia companies. One of the guys hit it right. The Corps has a great history but is outdated, so, like the 10th Mountain, people find you jobs so you can stay in the news and not go away.

BTW my uncle was an MI Marine, got in Carlson's Raiders and the 3rd MARDIV (IWO Jima, Guadalcanal, Okinawa). A serious stud up until he died in 76.

[12884-SHOOTER]

If Im not mistaken the 3rd was a drafted division. The only Marine division I think anyone should brag about knowing somone that had bees apart of is the 1st. Guadal Canal,Iwo Jima and Okinawa. I happen to happen to have a P-whistle handed down from my grandfather that has seen action on all three of those hell holes. My Grandfather loved the Corp more than anything in the world ( except maybe his children and wife).
Also stating that the Corps is outdated is like saying anything other a rifle is a gold
plated weapon system(dumb ass Nader). The Corp. is like the 911 force to the world. If we feel threatened we just park an MEU a few miles of shore and things usually calm down. Now if things dont,Well lets just say they'll wish they did...

[TonyM]

OK here's some "Ranger" history from the Regiment that still is in operation today that traces back to Robert Rodgers (Queen's York Rangers-1st American Regiment in Toronto) Ask Recce_O, he'll tell you all about it.

Robert Rogers, a New Hampshire settler, raised the first company of Rangers in 1755 to serve in the British army in the Seven Years War. The company's official instructions were to reconnoitre enemy positions, obtain information, take prisoners, destroy houses, barns, barracks and boats as well as supply convoys destined for French forts and outposts. The Rangers were not a traditional British unit; instead, they wore a nondescript green uniform and adopted the tactics of their enemy, the Indians.

Rogers' Rangers' are a part of Canadian history, with companies serving at the capture of Louisbourg in 1758 and under General Wolfe at the Plains of Abraham in the following year. Rogers' most famous exploit, however, was the raid on St. Francis, an Abenaki Indian village. After traveling eighty miles by boat and over seventy-five miles cross-country, pursued all the way by the French, the Rangers attacked at dawn, killing two hundred men and burning the village. The Rangers traveled a further two hundred and fifty miles on foot before they reached resupply and safety. Seventeen were killed in action and thirty-two died of famine. The Ranger companies were all disbanded at the end of the war in 1763.

When the disputes between the Thirteen Colonies and the British Government erupted into armed conflict in 1775, at least a third of the colonists remained loyal to the Crown. More than forty Loyalist battalions of volunteers were raised and were known as the Provincial Corps. Major Rogers returned to America from London during the summer of 1775. Being a retired officer of the British service on half-pay, and as his political leanings were as yet unknown, he was regarded suspiciously by some colonists and as an open enemy by others. He was arrested by order of the Congress but shortly afterwards released on parole. George Washington distrusted him and had him imprisoned again. He escaped and began to openly espouse the British cause. He was commissioned by General Sir William Howe to raise a battalion called the Queen's Rangers from loyalists in New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island, and Connecticut. Later, the Queen's Loyal Virginia Regiment was absorbed whole.

The Queen's Rangers were commanded for most of the Revolutionary War by John Graves Simcoe, who turned the regiment into one of the most highly regarded units on the battlefield. The Rangers continued in their role as light infantry scouts, but with the addition of a company of hussars, and still eschewing the red tunics of the regular British army for green uniforms. On 2 May 1779, as a mark of favour, five units were designated "American Regiments." The Queen's Rangers were given the place of pride as the "1st American Regiment."

The Rangers participated in a number of battles and innumerable skirmishes and raids during the war. The regiment, however, had the misfortune to be included in the surrender of British forces at Yorktown in 1781. One way or another, most of the Regiment eventually made their way back to New York, where they re-formed. In 1782, the Rangers were absorbed into the regular British army and their ranks made permanent. With the end of the war, the regiment dispersed. Some returned to England, some remained in the Thirteen Colonies, but the bulk of them settled in the St. John River valley in New Brunswick. The regiment was officially disbanded on October 13th, 1783 at St. John.

When the colony of Quebec was divided in 1791, Simcoe was selected as the first Lieutenant-Governor of Upper Canada. He immediately re-formed the Queen's Rangers for service in the new province, using many of the same officers and sergeants who had served with him in the Revolutionary War. The purpose of the regiment in Upper Canada would be not only for local defence, but also for part-time public works construction. Simcoe selected Toronto for the construction of fortifications, and in 1793 he set the Rangers to the tasks of building Fort York and constructing roads, Dundas Street and Yonge Street among them. The Queen's Rangers of this period made an invaluable contribution to the infrastructure of Ontario, opening the untouched land for settlers, as well as providing for the defence of the province against the American threat to the south. In 1802, the British Government was struggling with the expense of the Napoleonic Wars and decided that the military situation in Upper Canada did not warrant so many troops. Once again the Queen's Rangers were stood down.

[Ranger002]

YEAAH SUA SPONTE you SEMPER FI'S!!! :-)
Thanks Tony.
William Hazen

[0802]

12884 I hate to tell you this, but the 1st Mardiv wasn't at Iwo, I am pretty sure only the the 3d Marine Division commanded by Major General Graves B. Erskine; the 4th Marine Division commanded by Major General Clifton B. Cates; and the 5th Marine Division commanded by Major General Keller E. Rockey all were elements of the the 5th Ampibous Corps under Major General Harry Schmidt.

[12884-SHOOTER]

are you ABSOLUTELY sure? Im pretty positive they were. Now keep im mind that that was third hand info( grandfather to grandmother to mother to me) So the actual places could have been mistaken. If there was one thing my grandfather wasnt it was a liar. Im off to research this some more. By the way are P-whistles still used?

[RKW]

I know this is off the subject just a little, but on the Ranger history subject. King Philip's War (1675?), is the earliest recorded account of "Rangers". Church's Rangers under Captain Benjamin Church used small unit tactics to do scouting. Also, in the Revolutionary War, Rogers offered his services to Washington, who turned Rogers down. I could be wrong, Im goin off of memory here, but I believe I read the first part in a Ranger/LRRP book, I try to figure out which one. If Im wrong, please correct me.

RKW

[0802]

12884: If you like you could got to www.USMC.mil (http://www.USMC.mil) They you can go to the history of various units. A possible answer was that a large number of Marines from the 1st MarDiv was used as a basis for the 5th Mardiv.

[LRSURanger]

This is a silly arguement...Maine infantry would be a better comparison to the Army's 25th, or 10th Mtn. Yes, there is a difference between the Marines MEU Speicial Operations Capable unitsand the 75th Ranger Regt...It's called JSOC...Hello, McFly? The difference between the Marines and the Rangers---those that train(Marines) and those that do(Regt). EOM

------------------
RLTW!

Ranger Mac

[0802]

LRSURanger
The Rangers are damn good at what they do, but have never been used as much as the Marines (deployed as MEU (SOC)) Since the end of the Second World War, a MEU, or its predecessor the MAU, has been employed once ever 10 weeks. Since the end of the Cold War the average has risen to once ever 6 weeks. The MEU is quite a potent combined arms task force (4000 Marines, to include an Infantry BN, Arty Btry, LAR Co. (-), Amtrak Plt, a combat engineer Plt (+), a Reconnaissance det/plt, the occasional Tank Plt, a composite fix and rotary wing squadron and a MEU Service Support Group with enough combat supplies for 15 days of combat) that gives the regional CINC a lot of options. The only unit that a permanent part of ever MEU is the command element, all the others rotate among units within the MEF.

[LRSC Grunt]

0802,
I recomend you read AIRBORNE by Tom Clancy. You will find alot of simularities between an MEU and an 18th Abn Corps brigade task force.


Here is also a message posted on Toms listserver.


BTW, I thought we already beat this dead horse http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/confused.gif


----------------------------------------Airborne Units Land Fast, Hit Hard, Remain Relevant

By Matthew Cox


Moving at ground-breaking speed, Army leaders are engineering the Brigade Combat Teams at Fort Lewis, Wash., to be thrown into a fight and survive without support from heavy forces. But despite its versatility, the future fighting force may never leave the staging area unless paratroopers open the door.

Chief of Staff Gen. Eric Shinseki's vision of blending the deployablity of light forces with the staying power of heavy outfits is sure to change the Army like never before. But students of ground warfare say it will be some time before the Army outgrows the need for airborne units.

"My opinion of what the chief wants to do is ... it's exactly on target," said retired Gen. Carl Ernst, former commanding general for the Army's Infantry Center. "Anything that will lighten the Army and raise its technological advantage is a good thing.

"We still have to have the capability for a forcible-entry situation -- that is a hostile environment where we are not invited."

On the Special Operations side, the 75th Ranger Regiment makes up part of the Army's rapid-deployment force and can begin launching the first of its three battalions on short-term strike operations within 18 hours. For more conventional operations, however, the 82nd Airborne Division still provides the main forced-entry capability for large-scale operations.

The Army's only true airborne division falls under the command of the XVIII Airborne Corps, designated after World War II to meet the rapid-deployment contingencies of the Cold War. Besides the 82nd, the Corps consists of the 101st Airborne (Air Assault), the 10th Mountain (Light) and the 3rd Infantry (Mechanized) divisions, as well as the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment.

Like the Ranger regiment, the 82nd can begin launching a brigade-sized task force in 18 hours toward objectives anywhere in the world.

In the 1989 invasion of Panama, both units were sent in to spearhead a larger invasion force. The Rangers parachuted into Torrijos International Airport at 1 a.m. Dec. 20, followed by the 82nd 45 minutes later.

"If you want ground troops on the ground quickly, they are the only ones that can do it, unless the Marines are lurking off shore," said Douglas Johnson, research professor at the Army War College's Strategic Studies Institute.

Once the airdrop begins, three airborne infantry battalions supported by artillery, air-defense artillery and engineer units can be on the ground in 30 minutes.

If the same-size unit were to land on an airfield, it would take 29 hours to deploy its forces, said Col. Stephen Sittnick, director of plans for the XVIII Airborne Corps. "It's really hard to beat. How else can you put a brigade-sized element on the ground -- there is no other way to get them there as fast."

By comparison, if a Marine Expeditionary Unit were operating near the area, it could put a reinforced battalion of infantry with air support ashore within six hours.

But this capability to drop a brigade in 30 minutes is by no means foolproof. In the early hours of Operation Urgent Fury, freezing rain at Fort Bragg, N.C., delayed the second lift of 10 C-141s from the 82nd from taking off by more than four hours.

After the airfield or landing zone has been secured, other units can be funneled in as needed.

"It's not only conducting a forcible entry, you are going to have to have other forces follow," Sittnick said. "You have to be the type of unit that can work with other units. You are going to have to be the force that can absorb other forces and grow."

Shinseki's plan calls for his medium-weight brigades to be on the ground within 96 hours, followed by the remainder of the division in five days -- exactly what airborne forces were designed to support, experts say.

"They can create the hole, create the lodgment, where these other forces can flow into," Ernst said. "This is where you get the complimentary aspect of what the chief wants."

But airborne operations still have as much chance of failing as they did during World War II.

"What we saw in Normandy wherever the incoming aircraft encountered heavy flack, the drop was disrupted," Johnson said, describing how paratroopers were often dropped miles from the drop zone. "Pilots can be as brave as they want, but when half a wing is shot off, you are not going to make the drop zone."

Today, a bigger threat is an army in an under-developed country with shoulder-fired missiles. "They lie in a foxhole, you fly over in formation and they knock the crap out of you," Johnson said. "And that is a major problem."

And once on the ground, lightly armed paratroopers are always in danger of being cut off altogether if the enemy's air defense can't be controlled.

"The biggest danger is they get in safely and the enemy establishes an anti-air umbrella around them and over them," Johnson said. "When the other guy still has a significant air defense ability ... then that ability to aid and assist them is not too cool."

Airborne forces of the future may be able to combat some of these hazards with new technology such as the Enroute Mission Planning and Rehearsal System, which links headquarters elements in the rear to aircraft and all the way to the objective.

The system would allow an airborne task force to revise its plan of attack using fresh intelligence via satellite.

"If you are going to fly 18 to 20 hours, you certainly don't want to be 18 to 20 hours old with your information," Ernst said.

The 82nd will conduct a formal test with the new system at Fort Polk, La., in September at the Joint Contingency Force Advanced Warfighting Experiment.

And while some hazards may never go away, experts continue to see the airborne surviving the Army's latest round of transformation as well as the next.

"We will need them until we can figure a better way to deliver people with the same speed, and I don't see that in the next 10 years -- maybe in the next 30 years," Johnson said.

[0802]

LRSC, that is not my point. I was responding to LRSU statement that Marines only train, vice the Army actually doing. The Airborne/Rangers have a mission and in general they are good at it. But in most cases the MEU (SOC) is the regional CINC first choice because it is on the scene and doesn't relies on the largess of the Air Force. What would happen if during one of Presidents Clinton's over sea visit, in which half C-5 and large chunk of other lift aircraft are dedicated to move the president and his entourage, and a contingency occur? I am pretty sure the Ready Brigade would bust its time line. Just like our BN and Regimental Air Contingency Forces would have difficulty making its time lines, but our MEU would not they are already on scene or can sail to their LD.

[LRSURanger]

0802,

I have nothing but repect for MEU SOC, but I think that you and I have two different opinions on what constitutes "Special Operations" missions. No offense intended...

------------------
RLTW!

Ranger Mac

[STN]

"The difference between the Marines and the Rangers---those that train (Marines) and those that do (Regt)."

LR Ranger, another kid that was sent down the hall?

My question for the day, where have the Rangers ever gone that the Marines had not already been or weren’t already doing?

[Ted]

Oh...Grenada, Panama, Point Du Hoc!?!?!
Even when the Marines did get there first, when the DOD decided to get the job done right, they sent in the Rangers.

Oh, I know the Marines and SEALs were the first in Somalia. I watched you guys on CNN, as you were forcing your way on that beach, trying to pry your way through all the TV cameras and journalists.

[Tracy]

Ted:

US Army Special Forces were already in Mogadishu and points northwest when the USMC landed in Dec 1992.

And we provided C3 support to 10th Mountain Division TAC-CP when they arrived a week after the USMC. I de-briefed the Team Leadership at the Chancery inside the Embassy compound.

[STN]

Teddy,
The Jarheads were already on the ground when the Rangers arrived in Granada and Panama. Point Du Hoc? Remember what I said, “Not already doing it.” The Marines had been doing amphib assaults and raids in the war for over two years before then, where were your boys?

Come on, where have the Rangers been that the Marines weren’t already there or weren’t already doing the same job???

[STN]

Gotta love SF, The Quiet Professionals! Quite a difference from Marine Grunts and Rangers.

[0802]

Actually Tracy, a MEU (SOC) did a NEO in Mogadishu in 1991, a few months after the Gulf War ended.

[Ted]

Ok, Mr. STN, I'm wise to your antics now. I could say that the Rangers lead the invasion of Mars and you would simply claim that the Marines were there first.

Just what were the Marines doing first on Grenada? Guarding the sofa at the embassy? They certainly weren't conducting a low-level combat parachute assault onto an enemy held airfield.

Amphibious assaults? Does the Dieppe Raid in early 1942 ring a bell? Rangers were part of that force. I believe that that raid occurred before the Makin Island raid or Guadalcanal invasion.

(no ill will intended, just good fun.)

[This message has been edited by Ted (edited 11-27-2000).]

[realpolypro]

Oh yea!, well you all just try and eat without us cooks!
Sua Spoonte

Poly

[LRSC Grunt]

STN,

Easy there killer...


Since you want to play the history game or the HIS-STORY game(biased historical opinion). Where were the rangers two years before point du hoc? Well ....you ever heard of NORTH AFRICA??? You ever heard Arzew, Tunisia, or El Guettar? Or maybe your DI forgot to also include the Rangers spearheading the allied invasion into Sicily? Did they ever tell you that the pacific theatre also included the US ARMY too? Did they ever tell you the US ARMY was the first to return to the phillipines? Did they tell you we had reconnaissane teams operating on New Guinea and The Admiralty Islands? Did you know the alamo scouts conducted 106 successful reconnaissance missions deep behind japanes lines WITHOUT LOSING A MAN?

Or what about the Cannabutan Raid? Did they tell you the Rangers penitrated 35 miles behind enemy lines, raiding a POW camp, killing over 200 japs, liberating over 500 american prisoners, all in less than 30 minutes, only to lose 2 Rangers. Hmmmm....who was the first there..huh?

Ohh... and what about Burma? Where Merrills Marauders parachuted behind enemy lines and penetrated 500 miles over mountain jungles and malarial vallies in northern Burma.

You know what? I fucking dare you to go to one of the crusty battle harden members of Darbys Rangers, Merrills Marauders, or even the Alamo Scouts, look them in the eyes and ask them. "Where were your 'boys'?"



[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 11-28-2000).]

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

Hey I dont care what you guys say, Rangers are fat stupid heads, and Marines are ugly stupid men.

It really is the cooks and more importantly THE OFFICERS who make the military work..YES SO BOW DOWN TO POLY AND I FOR WE RULE ALL!

I do recall Tack Poly and I scouting out Berlin in 1939 before the Marines, remember that one? Boy were we drunk.

RLTW

[justagrunt]

Largest Beach Assault in world history: Normandy. It will never be matched... This "Beach Assault" Tactic is the prime reason for the Marines exsitence, right? How come they didn't do it or why didn't they atleast go with? They sent the US Army Rangers and Infantry, Period.

------------------
Up, Up and Away...

[Bubbler]

Originally posted by Ted:


Oh, I know the Marines and SEALs were the first in Somalia. I watched you guys on CNN, as you were forcing your way on that beach, trying to pry your way through all the TV cameras and journalists.


OH.... low blow.

Yes, but it was our fierce reputation why the beach wasn't challenged ;-)

By the way maybe it was the camera crews and journalists that was there before everyone ha! ha! ha!


[This message has been edited by Bubbler (edited 11-28-2000).]

[Bubbler]

justagrunt,

Nice wet dream. But now it's time to wake up.

[Tracy]

Originally posted by 0802:
Actually Tracy, a MEU (SOC) did a NEO in Mogadishu in 1991, a few months after the Gulf War ended.

My Bad; I forgot about that one. Some of you guys left the lights on; so we had to go in and turn 'em off...

[jinX]

That's it. I'm joining an elite CCJG (Camera Crew Journalism Group) so I can go in first. We're there first, we're the best dammit.

------------------
"I am not a stormtrooper, I am a soldier of my country."

"I am not a terrorist, I am a freedom fighter."

[justagrunt]

Originally posted by Bubbler:
justagrunt,

Nice wet dream. But now it's time to wake up.

Care to elaborate?

[Tracy]

OK, this thread has gone on long enough. The MEUs and Rangers are both excellent units. If there wasn't a need for both of them, the budget axe would have dropped long ago.

Some of you are starting to sound like Eunuchs comparing d*ck lengths.

[RAT]

quote:
---------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ted:

Oh, I know the Marines and SEALs were the first in Somalia. I watched you guys on CNN, as you were forcing your way on that beach, trying to pry your way through all the TV cameras and journalists.


---------------------------------------------

Please Lay off BIG "H" he gets enough shit for that... I do think it was funny when he was compromised he said they were Navy SEAL/S (Sorry guy's)...

Plus, the ARMY has done far more Amphib landings than the Corps. Plus they have the worlds 2nd largest Navy. How many of you know that...

quote:

Tracy: "Some of you guys left the lights on; so we had to go in and turn 'em off..."

Yes we did... Thank you... Sorry for the way it ended.. I still think about that crappy place on a weekly basis.

Semper Fi,

RAT OUT!!!

[justagrunt]

I love your honesty, RAT!

------------------
Up, Up and Away...

[LRSC Grunt]

Mine is three inches....FROM THE GROUND!!!!

Just kidding

But some girls like it that WIDE...

[0802]

Gentlemen, beach assaults (Amphibious Assault) are just one of the 22 standard missions of the MEU (SOC). Those are:

Amphibious Assault
Amphibious Raid
Limited Objective Attack-Deception Raid
Airfield/Port Seizure
Noncombatant Evacuation Operations
Security Operations
Military Operations in Urban Terrain
Seizure and Destruction of Offshore Oil Platforms
Maritime Inspection-Maritime Assault
Reinforcement Operations
Show of Force Operations
Humanitarian Relief Operations
Civil Action Operations
Fire Support Control
Initial Terminal Guidance
Tactical Recovery of Aircraft, Equipment and Personnel (TRAP)
Clandestine Recovery Operations
Mobile Training Teams
Special Demolition Operations
Clandestine Reconnaissance and Surveillance-Counterintelligence
Signal Intelligence Electronic Warfare
In-extremis Hostage Rescue

The Marine Corps had to add it back to the list of Ops that MEU did a few years ago, because of the belief that an opposed amphibious assault were too costly and wouldn't be done. Most of the future concepts for Marine Ops (STOM and OMFTS), don't involve Amphibious Ops in the traditional sense, the Ocean will be mere maneuver space in itself. The purpose of the Marines is no longer just to seize beaches, that went away along time ago, we are the force that in conjunction with the Navy enable the US to operate in the Littorals, were in the next several years 75 plus percent of the world population will be at. Yes, the Rangers and 82 can do many of the same Ops, but they rely on the largess of the Air Force, and don't have a 200 plus year traditions of operating from the sea, with sea based sustainment. Once we move several hundred KM ashore, the Marines lose some of their advantages, and the only way there is by air. In that case, we only have limited lift capability, and must also go to the AF.

[Razor]

Well, there you have it. The USMC is much better, since the Army only has two missions--break expensive stuff, and play babysitter to ill-tempered ethnic groups. We conceed.

[Razor]

Negligent discharge. Where's the black Chinook?

[This message has been edited by Razor (edited 11-30-2000).]

[Bubbler]

Originally posted by justagrunt:
Care to elaborate?



No. I have no beef with the content of your post, but my being a smarta$% was directed at the tone of your post.

Hey justagrunt you are making a life out of serving your country in it's Army. I on the other hand served the country for four years in it's Marine Corps, and that may be good enough. But there is worth and sacrifice in what you are doing. We (the country) need you people that stay in for life, be that Army, Marine Corps, Navy, or Air Force. So don't think when I make comments to stick up for the Corps that I am entirely dismissing the Army and it's people, but certain attributes come with being a Marine - one would be to talk a little trash in response to the tone of a post like yours ;-)

[Ranger002]

OK ALREADY ENOUGH OF THIS!!!

Time to get out the twister and the baby oil and make up... WE ALL BLEED RED.

Now for you you experts on trivia on the so called "we were there first subject"...In WWII where and who participated in the first amphibious assault in Europe?? We all know who and where in the Pacific... A free spin to the man who answers correctly...
William Hazen
Hint: It was a multinational effort and it was a disaster to the invading force.

[Nemo]

RangerHazen,
It sounds like your referring to the raid on Dieppe, France in 1942. The bulk of the ground forces were Canadian, but there were British Commandos and some US Rangers (I forget how many) that executed raids in support of the operation.

[This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 11-29-2000).]

[Ranger002]

NEMO wins the SPIN!!!

Now THERE... we have our first and the Marines have thier first SO IT'S A TIE! LOL
William Hazen

[jinX]

Mr. Hazen to the rescue!

[0802]

I am pretty sure the German invasion into Norway preceded the Diepe raid.

[Ranger002]

0802 DUH!!! I was talking about the good guys. Hey did you notice I didn't talk about Alexander the Great's Siege of Tyre. Friggin hooah JARHEAD lol
God Bless all you Semper Fi's... Now shut up! Get that baby oil on and start spinning!!!
William Hazen
I yeah I forgot In Marine speak.... Hooah is pronounced OOOOh RAAAAh lol

[wcollar]

Some of the facts in this pissing contest need a little clarification.

Ranger Hazen: The first actual amphibious assault in the European theatre was made by British/French forces at Narvik in Norway. That action occurred in May 1940 (well before the RAID on Dieppe which occurred on August 19, 1942) and involved the Nos 1,3,4 and 5 Independent Companies of the Royal Marines/British Army (precursors to the Commandos). The British also launched an amphibious assault on the port of Bardia on the North African coast in April 1941 using No 4 Commando. And let's not forget the British/French amphibious landings at Courrier and Ambararata Bays in Madagascar in May 1942.

Ted: The raid on Dieppe involved 9880 troops (Canadian/British but with 60 Rangers). The Makin Island raid occurred August 17, 1942 while Dieppe was on August 19, 1942. The Marine assault on Tulagi in the South Pacific was on August 7, 1942.

0802: STOMS and OMFTS involve traditional amphib ops more than you think, however, this is not the thread to get into this. The MEU wasn't really created for a fullscale amphib assault; it has great strategic mobility but rather limited tactical mobility (as well as limited numbers).

justagrunt: The Army has conducted numerous, successful amphibious assaults. However, Army amphibious doctrine in WWII was based on and adopted almost wholesale from Navy Fleet Training Publication 167, Landing Operations Doctrine, U.S. Navy. That in turn was written and developed by the Marines (with some input from the Navy).

LRSCgrunt: Don't forget a major reason behind the successes of both the Alamo Scouts and the 6th Ranger Battalion (the Cabanatuan rescuers): they were both formed by a TEXAN - Lt Gen Walter Kreuger of San Antonio.

Hope this helps. Semper Gumby, wcollar.

[LRSC Grunt]

Lets also not forget the reasoning behind the alamo scouts ever exhisting. The fact that there was way too much intraservice ravalry from the the scouts and raiders gave him reason to start his own band of bad asses. S&R didnt provide enough because their command didnt give a rats ass about anyone else. The same type of intraservice rivalry that exhists on this very string. Without it there would have never been the Sixth Army Special Recconnaisance Unit or otherwise known as the alamo scouts. So far no one, NO ONE has even come close to matching their record!!!!

[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 11-30-2000).]

[Ranger002]

WC SEMPER GUMBOT,

Thanks for the clarification you are correct. Don't forget the British Commando Raids up and down the coast of Norway before Narvik. My point was The first Rangers to amphib did so during Dieppe in 42. I will be more specific next time and I appreciate your input. I have been studying Military History and Wargaming since I was a boy and I was lucky to know alot about both the Rangers and the Marines before I volunteered.God Bless
William Hazen

[Gary]

Jumping out of an LCU or a CH-46 isn’t that big of a deal; it’s what you do once you’re on the ground. Looking back at the heroic and storied histories of both the Rangers and the Marines, there isn’t much room to talk smack!

[LRSC Grunt]

If thats the case, then what about jumping into COMBAT at a record low altitude? Like say Grenada? IMHO that definately is a big deal!!!

[Gary]

Well I guess you misconstrued my statement. Jumping into combat or sailing into combat is just a means of getting there. Jumping at a record low or trying to get over coral reefs while Jap gunners blast your ass at point blank range is just more argument.

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

Doesn't anybody listen!? The cooks and officers make Rangers and Marines look like wussies!

RLTW

[STN]

Good to see history is alive and well here.

[JSOCMarine]

The Grenada jump was at approximately 500'. Army Paratroopers conducted several jumps at this altitude or lower during WW II. I have spoken with many of those who made the jumps. Same as Grenada, no reserve chute was used by most of the troops.

By the way, a little known fact is that there were a few Marines that jumped into Grenada with the Rangers. S/F

[LRSC Grunt]

ANGLICOs??

[JSOCMarine]

Yes, some of the Marines were Anglico, and some were those permanently assigned to the Regiment. I believe there are still a couple Marines assigned there at the Regimental level for Fire Support purposes. It was always considered a great assignment to be in.

[DFC5343]

Don't forget USMC IS part of the Dept. of the NAVY...and its HOOYAH!!!! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

[Gary]

Originally posted by DFC5343:
Don't forget USMC IS part of the Dept. of the NAVY http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

That's right, the MEN's dept.

[Ted]

Or...at least, what passes for the MEN's department in the Navy.


Sorry, couldn't resist.

[This message has been edited by Ted (edited 12-06-2000).]

[realpolypro]

LRSC, Air and Naval Gunfire Liaison something or other http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

Poly

[wcollar]

Enjoy it while you can, Gary. After DACOWITS is done with us, they'll probably set their sights on y'all. R/wcollar

[Gary]

I guess it’s only a matter of time but remember what Chesty said, “If we keep pussy footing around, some hardier race will come here, kick our ass, take our women and breed a hardier race!” I guess then we won’t have to worry about COO training and the such.

[0802]

Wcollar, not sure what you have been reading about OMTFS and STOM, but the only thing they have in common with old fashion Amphibious Ops is they both come from the sea and use see based sustainment. Cannot even do most of the things in either of the concepts because of the limits of today systems.