Helo Question

[frogstyle]

I apologize for infiltrating your hootch.

Question..

I have done lots of research, spoken to pilots, called some schools, etc. etc.

But, Ide value the opinion of you gents far more..

My buddy is purchasing a Robinson R44.

He is newly certified, minimal hours.

He learned on this helo and feels competeant. He is by nature overly confident.

Several sources have told me this helo is unforgiving and autorotates like a rock.

Any of you guys familiar with this bird? Thumbs up or down?

Thanks..

[CPTAUSRET]

Originally posted by frogstyle
I apologize for infiltrating your hootch.

Thanks.. Absolutely no apologies necessary:

Don't know the bird, but you have painted a pretty scary scenario. New pilot, low hours, overly confident, he ought to have someone with some experience in the other seat, at least for awhile:

Terry

[frogstyle]

Yeah, Thats what I thought as well.

He just got a wild hair up his ass and went to Flight Safety and became a helo pilot.

He is a type A to the hilt and wild as hell.

I wont fly with him, hell I wont ride his Scarab either.

Good dude, just nutty as hell.

I was trying to lean him towards a UH1 or something like that. Evidently the UH1 is too big for his apartment building though.

[KJ]

Would you send a 6-month old surfer out on the Pipeline with a small board? Remember a guy named John F. Kennedy Jr.? How about someone else that flew an unforgiving airplane for new pilots, John Denver? You have answered your own question I think, save your friend before he does something stupid. A huey ain't that simple either. Why not try something easier like a Bell JetRanger?

[specwarnet]

R-22's have an OK rep... they're an earlier, 2 seat version. Autorotation is OK as long as you don't let the RPM's fall. There was a big brouhaha a couple of years ago with a senator's son getting killed in one and he tried to get them declared unsafe, but the stats didn't back him up. The only changes they made were to the operating profile, particularly crosswinds, if memory serves. With some crosswinds and low rotor RPMs (such as during autorotation) the rotors can tilt enough that it causes a "mast bump" that's anything but a bump.. it caused separation of the rotor disk. Like I said though, they just revised the operating manual (on the R-22) to limit operations in some crosswinds.

I'm in agreement with Terry otherwise; attitude has turned many a pilot into a pile-it.

[Huey One Four]

I wouldnt be buying a helo myself until I had at least 500 hours on type.

[Ace]

The others have pretty much said what counts, a cherry pilot needs to be cautious, period.

As far as the actual safety of the R-22, I think the majority of it is a bunch of hype. Simple fact of life is, when you produce a helicopter that is relatively inexpensive, you have a ton of new people learning to fly. Considering the fact that most R22 helicopters are used for flight training, which involves numerous takeoffs and landings, you have a good number of "accidents". Some translate this into the fault of the helicopter, I disagree.

[HmtPD]

If I was going to spend $300,000 on an aircraft, it wouldnt be a Robinson. For $400,000 you can get a good used MD-500!

[specwarnet]

Oh boy, talk about adding fuel to the fire!!!

Almost literally. Fuel consumption for a turbine powered H500 is about double that of a R-44.

They're sweet birds, no doubt about it, but turbines are way more expensive when it comes time to overhaul the engine. We lost a hot section on one of our birds and it was 50k for a new one. That was an expensive mistake on someone's part.

*EDIT* the hot section is a colloquial term for the turbine section of the engine, and not the whole engine itself. You've also got the compressor section, combustion chamber, and accessory section. So that 50k does NOT buy you a whole new engine.

[TigerHooter]

The R-22 or 44 are 'about' the best you can buy for the money (new). However, as has been stated here already, going solo as a newly certified rotary wing pilot is dicey. The individual knows only how to perform under ideal conditions. And I'm sure you have all heard the saying, "Anyone can perform under ideal conditions". One of my favorites. Add the fact that it is his own aircraft (toy from the sounds of it), throw in the 'babe' he's trying to impress, mix in strong and gusty winds or questionable weather according to taste, and you have the recipe for disaster.

The smaller the helicopter, the more control technique required. 'Control technique' is a common term in piloting, but doesn't adequately describe what is required in a helicopter. In light 'copters, you have to be very quick with control inputs to conteract wind gusts and power changes. At the same time you must be constantly aware of what your EGT/TGT (for turbines) or manifold pressure (recip) is doing. Max out either, and the rotor slows down. The smaller copters, with shorter tail booms/smaller tail rotors, are also prone to losing tail rotor effectiveness which means if you keep doing what you're doing, you are going to rotate to the *right at ever greater RPM.

All in all, I advise the guy to caution his friend against buying any aircraft until he builds more hours. In doing so, he gains experience with other than nomunal conditions while another pilot is available for help and may find he likes one model over the others.

If he decides to buy now anyway, I'd try to get him to sit down and write out a list of his own maximum/minimum forecast conditions that he will operate in. (not the 'maximums' stated in the 'Owners/Operater's Manuals and regulations) Once a 'pilot' starts down the road to fly, he usually will not abort his flight unless the references tell him to do so.

I have over 300 hours instructing in airplanes (500+ total) and thousands in helicopters. Anyone that pays for their own time to become a 'pilot' is usually a Type A person. Most Type A's, if they've told you what they 'think' they might want to do, have already decided when they told you.

This is an old thread, but I say, "Good Luck to the 'pilot'", and. "see if you can take out a policy on the guy," to his friend.

[WS-G]

Keep in mind the old Air Force saying that "hamburger in a different package is still hamburger".

That said, it is my well-considered fixed-winger's opinion (only a cherry rotorhead myself, FWIW) that your aquaintance is one of those people who considers his aircraft, car, weapon, etc., to be merely another toy doled out for his amusement, to the utter exclusion of any due regard for the safety of his pax, bystanders or the general public.

I once worked as an airframe mechanic for a guy that had all the same attitudes, quirks and foibles — and money — that you (frogstyle) attribute to this piss-poor excuse for a pilot. A few discreet inquiries with other local aviation business owners/operators revealed that my erstwhile boss ran his own operation chiefly because he had gotten fired from every charter and corporate operator — and the only regional airline — he'd ever worked for in the past, and that every business in which he had ever been a partner had without exception gone Chapter 11. Needless to say, the Warbirds restoration shop he was operating when I worked for him (restoring Hispano HA.200.R1 Saeta jet trainers) went Tango-Uniform five months after my date of hire. No real loss, IMO, as he was a notorious cheapskate on such things as wages, spare parts and sundry supplies. Of course, his hangar also looked just like Fred Sanford's front yard.

WRT TigerHooter's last set of comments, the handling issues which pertain to light helos are consistent with what my own R/W instructor's been telling me (N.B.: he trained on R-22's exclusively as a student, then instructed on them for several hundred hours before landing his current job as an aerial applicator on Enstrom 280's; he still instructs on the side). My CFI-RH was quick to point out while I was still trying to work the oscillations out of my hover technique on the Enstrom 280C that it was fairly routine for Robinson newbies to find themselves facing straight down, straight up and off to either side during the same one-second interval. Even on the first attempt at hovering an Enstrom, I didn't do that badly. Maybe it's just that the Enstrom more closely replicates that "big helicopter" feel than the Robbie.

That said, frogstyle, it sounds as if your acquaintance's real issue isn't so much a matter of "what aircraft?" as much as whether he has any business flying at all.

Sagacious comments re: aircraft selection on the buyer's market as well, FH. Planning to buy a helo myself for spraying and instructional work another two or three years down the road, and all I've managed to conclude WRT type is that it's going to have to be a high-time light recip! Still in the "mind's a blank slate" mode on that one for now.

[MotorSWATCop]

Old Thread Froggy but what the hell. I have a private pilot's license and a very few hours in an R-22 inthe 80's. TigerHoot, who by the way is eminently more qualified to make this comment than I, said it best; SQUIRRELLY BUGGER!:D

[TigerHooter]

Good post, WMS!
Originally posted by William M Salter
That said, it is my well-considered fixed-winger's opinion (only a cherry rotorhead myself, FWIW) that your aquaintance is one of those people who considers his aircraft, car, weapon, etc., to be merely another toy doled out for his amusement, to the utter exclusion of any due regard for the safety of his pax, bystanders or the general public.
Well said.
We've all known people like this; you wouldn't trust them with your car, boat (if you have one), nor a gun.
You know? Too loose; careless.

Besides flying aircraft, I've owned 2 motorcycles, driven fast cars (incl'd a 580hp open-wheeled, modified), tractors, and heavy equipment, and the two that will help you kill yourself fastest are helicopters and motorcycles. Three most likely conditions - Young, overconfident, or showing off. Notice I said or.


My CFI-RH was quick to point out while I was still trying to work the oscillations out of my hover technique on the Enstrom 280C that it was fairly routine for Robinson newbies to find themselves facing straight down, straight up and off to either side during the same one-second interval. Even on the first attempt at hovering an Enstrom, I didn't do that badly. Maybe it's just that the Enstrom more closely replicates that "big helicopter" feel than the Robbie.
One of Enstrom's claims-to-fame is their flight control system. I've never researched them, but remember adds that claimed you could release your hands and remain at a stabilized hover, even in their smaller models. Does the Enstrom have a fully correllated throttle?

I trained in the Hughes 300 or 360 (TH-55). In something like that, you don't 'learn' to hover, it's like it just all comes together after about 10 - 20 flight hours. Maybe 3-5 hours actually working at hovering. The day my IP said I would hover, I did. Same with his other students. But, at one point that day, he was heard yelling, "Ride 'em, Cowboy!!!", over the radio and I remember crying out, "Help Mister Wizard!!!", some time later.
Squirrely? You betcha.


FS - What happened with your friend? Did he buy anything yet?
Hoping he uses his head.

____________________________________
There are old pilots,
and there are bold pilots,
but there aren't many
old, bold pilots.

[WS-G]

TigerHooter:

Please accept my apology for waiting so damned long in replying to this thread. Between SOCNET's restructuring and the fact that I don't generally get to check each board on a daily basis, I reckon this one just ended up getting buried.


Originally posted by TigerHooter
...the two that will help you kill yourself fastest are helicopters and motorcycles.
Haven't been on a motorcycle since I was 14, but still carry a half-inch-long scar in the middle of my forehead from running the front wheel of a buddy's dirt-bike (one of Honda's 125cc varieties they were selling in the mid-70's) into a big-ass rock. Riding in the desert, at night, with no headlight and no helmet isn't a smart thing to do. Broke my glasses as well; the bike was undamaged.

Young, overconfident, or showing off. Notice I said "or".
All good reasons to keep student pilots on a short leash. Choke-chain optional, though no doubt tempting for some instructors.

Never had a mishap/incident in an aircraft, and no FAA enforcement actions to date, but don't think for one second that I didn't do a few stupid things in the air after I'd gotten soloed and my instructor wasn't looking.

I still shudder — even 20 years after the fact — at a couple of really idiotic stunts I'd pulled back then.

One of Enstrom's claims-to-fame is their flight control system. I've never researched them, but remember adds that claimed you could release your hands and remain at a stabilized hover, even in their smaller models.

Not something I'd even care to try. One might get away with releasing the collective but my fingertips never break contact with the cyclic unless someone else has the controls!

Does the Enstrom have a fully correllated throttle?

NEGATIVE! No correlator (governor) at all. The result of this is that Enstrom students will learn the true meaning of "throttle handling".

[HmtPD]

Ahhhhhhhhh, nothing like the whine of a C20B from 0-15% N1 !!