Helo Crash picture

[Joe Lippke]

http://www.internetage.com.au/rotorcraft/landings/hh-46crash1.jpg

Anyone who knows the story behind this incident?

Found at http://www.internetage.com.au/rotorcraft/landings2.htm


JOE

[Doogie320]

I think that was a CH-46 that was carrying some Recon or Force Recon Marines. A few of them died, IIRC. I think that the a/c snagged the net around the edge of the ship and the pilot couldn't fly out of it and it crashed. It was discussed on the board somewhere.

Sorry, I'm running off of a fuzzy memory on this.

BTAR

[CPTAUSRET]

Scary picture:

Any aircraft can hand you your lunch, but landing a helicopter on the deck of a rolling, bobbing ship can be dicey as hell:

Terry

[Xdeth]

This is not a picture of the crash that sadly took five FR Marines in 1999 off the California coast. Also killed was a member of the air crew and an EOD attachment.

[SOTB]

I believe the bird which you guys are referring to is in 3500' of water off the California coast.

[Attila175]

are CH-46's the most unsafe aircraft in military inventory? Had one go down on float with 13th MEU(soc) (BLT1/1)in 92. Several Marines died on that one as well.

[Doogie320]

ALCON,

Sorry for my misidentification. It looked like it to me.

BTAR

[1026]

Judging from the ordnance stacked at the back of the AE, I'll say it's a Navy bird and something went wrong during a VERTREP.

Looks like two helmets in the cockpit and one dangling, so hopefully all three crewmembers made it out.

[AngelsSix]

The crewmen all made it out okay. Yes, that IS a crewman haging from the gunners belt. I do not remeber the exact incident details, something about them getting hung up on the deck edging while trying to land or take off. Scary stuff.

[Joe Lippke]

AngelsSix, can you remember a date when the incident happened?


JOE

[Bravo_One_Three]

Originally posted by TM Reich
are CH-46's the most unsafe aircraft in military inventory?

We called them the "CH-46 Sea Magnet" in the late 80's. More Marines got killed on those things from 85-95 than died in combat, car wrecks, or all other training accidents.

What pisses me off is that when the Ospreys started crashing in testing, they simply suspended the program for a few years. I'm not pushing for the Osprey, I'm pushing for a replacement for the 46, as long as it is safer than a 46. I don't care if it is a CH-47.

[AngelsSix]

I spent 12 years in the Navy, the incident happened while I was on AD, we saw the pics at a safety stand down. I cannot recall the date in question. Sorry......you may want to try looking the in All Hands Magazines, Mech magazine or one of the other Navy safety related rags.

[jcollettusa]

That would suck.

[specwarnet]

beats going all the way in....

Someone posteds that the ship was an AE... that would make it the AE-21 USS Suribachi.

*EDIT* Found the info here (http://www.ticon.net/~stitch/Uss_Nitro/bachiclass.html).

It happened about 300 miles off the coast of Georgia in 1992, looks to be around August 20.

[Rngerdv]

Hey, just park that thing anywhere.......

[sta marine]

We had a helo hit the back of the ship on deployment in 95. I was sitting in the berthing area and I heard over the 1mc "helo in the water" we were all like holy shit. Luckily no one was killed. But that fucker sank FAST... Shit I cant remember the name of the ship we were on. We were with the 31st MEU at the time. it was an LHA LHA 3 any of you navy guys know the name of LHA 3???? shit. its gonna piss me off

[Bravo_One_Three]

LHA-3 = USS Belleau Wood.

[sta marine]

Thats the garbage barge.... The belleau wood. Worst ship I was on. They tried to have a tobacco free deployment. You can imagine how long that lasted. no dipping or smoking on board. Can you imagine? That lasted about 2 weeks I think because of all the fights. Then after we were allowed to dip again we could only do it on the well deck where the smoking area was, talk about nasty.

[specwarnet]

Made contact with a guy who has a page on the ship... he sent this picture taken when she arrived in port.

[Bravo_One_Three]

Originally posted by sta marine
Thats the garbage barge.... The belleau wood. Worst ship I was on. They tried to have a tobacco free deployment. You can imagine how long that lasted. no dipping or smoking on board. Can you imagine? That lasted about 2 weeks I think because of all the fights. Then after we were allowed to dip again we could only do it on the well deck where the smoking area was, talk about nasty.

That's pretty sick, but you should have taken a ride on USS Debuqe, San Bernadino, or Mt. Vernon.

My personal "favorite" was Mt. Vernon... POS kept losing engines or steerage and turning into a fucking rocking horse! There was a long spell where she wasn't even allowed to go on extended deployment, and just sailed around Hawaii until they got her sorted out.

I don't think I've ever spent the night below decks on ship. I always ended up in the hanger or the breezeway depending on the type of ship.

[tryxter]

This one happened in 99.

http://www.webmutants.com/strategypage/choppercrash.jpg

CH-46E Crash Video (http://www.webmutants.com/strategypage/chopper.wmv)

"This is a 1999 video of a CH-46E Sea Knight landing on the rear flight deck of the M/V Pecos when something goes wrong.

The Sea Knight's right rear landing gear became ensnared in a steel safety fence. The pilot tried to power out of the situation and -- well you can see the results.

Six marines and one sailor were drowned. Amazingly 11 others escaped. Marine Gunnery Sgt. James Paige was credited with saving several of the survivors while losing his life in the process."

[KJ]

Yikes, that is some bad ju ju. Looks like the pilot came in way too hot. Surprised the right scanner didn't tell him to go around. Wonder if he lived.

[CPTAUSRET]

Scary video:

Terry

[Finger]

If I'm correct one of the survivors of that crash, just left this detail for the middle east on another contract. Gunny Vojin Moranovich Ret. He said the SEALs are the reason anyof them made it out.

yes scary stuff.

[DCH]

I had no idea Sea Knights filled water so damn quick!??, I was expecting to see it half-submerged after impact, and maybe start to sink somewhat, but damn if it just disappeared into the depths so sudden!

[Xdeth]

Yea, gives me an idea for redundant flotation devices that could be activated by the pilots or pressure from submersion. Something similar to the balloons that floated the Apollo capsules.

Engineers: It's too heavy!

Bean Counters: Costs too much!

Generals: Projected losses or lives saved by such a system don't justify sacrifices of a combat load due to weight.

Everyone regularly flying over water: YES!

[Huey One Four]

Why did he lean over when he powered out? A combo of IGE differances and torque?

[1026]

Originally posted by Huey One Four
Why did he lean over when he powered out? A combo of IGE differances and torque?

His left rear landing gear got caught in the personnel net...

[Huey One Four]

Ahhh.

Thanks.

I need to think simpler. And look at the video closer.

[specwarnet]

I had no idea Sea Knights filled water so damn quick!??, I was expecting to see it half-submerged after impact, and maybe start to sink somewhat, but damn if it just disappeared into the depths so sudden!

Not only do they fill quick, but they invert quicker.

I used to fix tour helos in the hawaiian islands. Our aircraft (http://www.bluehawaiian.com/) were single engined but equipped with floats. The operator next to use used twins and pushed this point on all of their adds. Twin engines were safer than all those singles. What they didn't say was that if an engine did fail, the other wasn't powerful enough to keep the aircraft in the air, and having twins gave them a loophole that they could use to weasel out of having to have floats.

So, if you gotta go down, would you prefer an aircraft that goes down faster but floats, or one that can stay in the air a bit longer but is going to sink like a rock when it hits the water?

Thankfully, Hawaii Helicopters went out of business.

[Crashola]

My recollection is that the Navy's helo dunker was designed specifically for the 46s tendency to invert after it hits the water. I always loved the drill when everyone has to go out the main door blindfolded.

Which leads to another question -- Does anyone besides Navy and Marine aircrew get training on the 46 helo dunkers?

[KJ]

Originally posted by Crashola
My recollection is that the Navy's helo dunker was designed specifically for the 46s tendency to invert after it hits the water. I always loved the drill when everyone has to go out the main door blindfolded.

Which leads to another question -- Does anyone besides Navy and Marine aircrew get training on the 46 helo dunkers?

All Air Force helicopter crewmen and pilots are required dunker before qualification on any helicopter airframe.

[pavegnr]

that was a fun class. we had a few who could not pass the swim test.

[Rngerdv]

The dunker sucks.....period....


I had a new found respect for flying over water

Dave

[DCH]

Crash,

I know there are some civilian LE air units out there that get to train on a helo-dunker type frame, most likely the county sheriff SAR helo crews. There is even NVG courses for LE pilots out there, and I thought those were only for mil.???

Also, welcome aboard pavegnr, good to see a Green Hornet post up!

DCH

[Crashola]

How about non-aircrew? I had to be qualed in the 46 dunker every three years and, with the exception of one quick overland flight, I never spent a minute in a navy helo. I can think of a lot of non-aircrew (specifically Marines) who spend a considerable amount of time overwater in the Phrog.

[pavegnr]

Do they still do the three open eyes out of different doors and then the three with black goggles? All of these in all the gear you would normally wear?
Better a big one instead of a huey.

[Ex-PH]

Originally posted by pavegnr
Do they still do the three open eyes out of different doors and then the three with black goggles? All of these in all the gear you would normally wear?
Better a big one instead of a huey. When I went through at Miramar in '99, we only had to do two of each. And, Rngerdv couldn't be more right...that f'in dunker sucked!

[Crashola]

My recollection was that we did went out the nearest hatch with open eyes, nearest hatch with blackout goggles, everyone out the main cabin door with open eyes, and then everyone out the main cabin door with blackout goggles. The last one always ended up causing a number of bloody noses when people got kicked on their way out the main door.

I thought the dunker was great until I got completely disoriented while blindfolded on the final dunk. I kept banging my helmet into the bulkhead and got a little taste of the "I'm about to drown in a big metallic tube" panic. Finally, the safety diver grabbed my flailing ass, pulled me to the surface, and told me to do it again.

[Xdeth]

I never got a single ride in the dunker, the one time I was scheduled it was broke or something. But I did stay at a Holliday-Inn express so I was okay if it crashed over water.

[Fire-Gunner]

We had a swim test first, just 25m on one breath across the pool and treading water for awhile (can't remember how long), no big deal.

We also had to use the HEEDS bottle while upside down, and exit a small simulator.

For the dunker, they divided the class by which airframe they fly on. For those of us on the H-60, we had to get out through the gunners window, cabin door, cross-cockpit (opposite side), then do it all again in the dark.

https://www.fairchild.af.mil/336trg/66trs/images/mets1.gif

[Ex-PH]

I thought the dunker was great until I got completely disoriented while blindfolded on the final dunk. I kept banging my helmet into the bulkhead and got a little taste of the "I'm about to drown in a big metallic tube" panic. Finally, the safety diver grabbed my flailing ass, pulled me to the surface, and told me to do it again. A friend got his thumb stuck in the seatbelt latch somehow, and almost got knocked out by the safety diver. As my friend was struggling to get himself unlatched, the diver thought he was panicking, so he came to help. As the diver was trying to pull the latch, it just kept ripping into my friends finger, so my friend started pushing the diver away. The diver took this to mean more panic and tried to take appropriate action. Luckily, the seatbelt unlatched before either guy got to do any damage to the other.

[KJ]

Coming out of PJ stuff, the dunker was lollipops and ice cream to us. We tried making it harder. Fought to get in the far back seats, and then have all the PJs exit through the pilots window (and even that seemed easy). I will never forget my friend, Ernie Evans (now a big Chief at Hurby), sitting in the pilots seat of the 46 dunker with goggles on, screaming "We're going down! We're going down," holding an imaginary collective as they lowered the rig. Some funny shit, that was.

[pavegnr]

That dunker looks a lot better than the one I went through at P'cola. Our swin test was step off the high board swin to the end, swin catty corner, swim up that side.

[frogstyle]

F

[SOTB]

New dunker story in the Corps' news. Looks like it has been outsourced now....

Article (http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/ac95bc775efc34c685256ab50049d458/810f9326d28efb518525700b001dd9e0?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,reconnaissance)