Black Beret

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

Ok folks,

I feel this needs attention. For those who say the regular army is "special", I agree. I have been in the RGT, and in the regular army. In the past week I have gotten literally 100 e-mails from Rangers around the country, both past and present, many of whom I have never met nor heard of before. As I sit here with a dip in I can remember what I had to do to get into the RGT. And now I think about what enlistedmen do to get into the RGT. Is the beret just a "hat"...in all senses of the word hat..sure it is. But then again is the Decleration of Independence just a piece of paper? No, and I am not comparing the beret to one of the most important documents in our countries history, but they are symbolic. The beret is symbolic of sacrafices that have been made by Rangers for 200+ years, and the sacrafices all Ranger in history have been willing to make. Does taking away the prestiege of the black beret mean the Ranger RGT will no longer be the best Light INF Rgt in the world? Nope...we will always be the best.

What concerns this officer is what this simple yet rash decision, made by whom I feel is actually a good General, is that the troops have not been asked; as usual. The reasons for this change are insane, wearing of a black beret will not raise the morale of a regular army soldier, it may perhaps drop the morale of Rangers. See those who never wore that beret have no clue how this feels to a Ranger, and I mean a REAL Ranger (IE Scroll), it is like being a buisnessman, you work your ass off to make money. THe minute you make the big bucks the government decides that in order to make the rest of the country feel better they will award each of citizen a large sum of money...now I know how Bill Gates feels.

Rangers, they can take the beret but they cannot take the scroll...and just remember that you guys actually earned it, keep your chins up, keep the Ranger Creed in mind, and drive on.

And to be honest, I will feel weird about wearing the beret not being in the RGT anymore.

RLTW

PS: As far as the pouge who said that the regular army pussies pulled our asses out of MOG...thanks ;-)

the friendly fire helped a lot also.

[Skip]

In the UK - the majority of the army wear a navy blue beret, and specialists wear other colours - ie maries - green
Paras - maroon
SAS - Sand

By issueing the army a beret doesn't mean it has to be black - it could, as the Brits use the navy one.

[JY]

The BB was used during 'nam by no less than, to name a few, advisors to the RVN National Police Field Forces, RVN Black Panther Div.,The USARV Advisor School and the MAT advisors they trained, and advisors with ARV armored units. Also the Army Scout Dog and combat tracker teams,and LRPs from the 1st Infantry Div. The 1st Cav first authorized Co H (Ranger),75th Infantry to wear them in August of 1970 with others following. So in actual use just under 30 years of being Ranger tradition.

Perhaps the right move to be made is to DEMAND a distictive head gear for the RANGERS, not based on the beret that appears ALL will wear now. As a suggestion, why not the head gear worn by Roger's men during the Revolution with appropriate flash and DUI. That has a tradition to it, not just dating back 30 years.Rangers are a purley American unit dating from our start as a nation and DESERVE recognition as such. And in a sea of berets will stand out and identify the US Army's finest. During the war in SEA the 2nd Bn of the 3d Infantry(Old Guard) wore a TRICORN tropical hat(fancy boonie) for parades and ceromonies so it's not without precedence.While we're at it how about branch of service too, SF has the crossed arrows, why not crossed hatchets for Rangers, or crossed musket and hatchet?

Hope these rambings made some sense, I think the Ranger Regt. should be distinctive from the other units in the Army, they deserve it. Take care...Jim

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

In all honesty, had a regular army unit been sent in with NO support of SOF, a regular army unit of the same size, then I would be safe in saying that casualties would have been greater. But the point is a regular army unit WAS NO tasked with that mission, SOF units are tasked with missions such as that, which are of greater risk, and thus should be conducted by soldiers of a higher caliber.

Now for all the Rangers out there, it is early and I need to rack out..but here is the deal.

We all agree this is a poor decision by CSA. ANd I have read every response I got in e-mails, all 115 thus far, and things posted on this web site. You all have good arguments, I say clean them up somewhat and rather than sit here bitching do something bout it, send your thoughts to senators, reps, who ever you can think of. Just do it. I know many feel that the common man is not represented, but we will never know unless we try. Rangers do not sit on the side and ride the waves, we...well you know how the creed goes. So lets do it, and that may be all that can be done. But try it.

RLTW

Ole Ranger current regular army officer

[RUDEDAWG]

KUDOS SIR!!!

Thats what I call leadership.

[Mike]

The Army's party line:

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:33:43 -0700

Subject: BDU caps stay, berets to symbolize transformation

by Gary Sheftick

WASHINGTON (Army News Service, Oct. 25, 2000) -- The BDU cap will
still be used in the field, even after the Army adopts the black beret for
garrison wear as part of its ongoing transformation, Sgt. Maj. of the Army
Jack L. Tilley said last week.
"The saucer cap and garrison cap could go away," Tilley said, "But
those are things we've got to work out."
Tilley will work with a group of senior NCOs to iron out the details
of how the Army will adopt the black beret next June. He was charged by Army
Chief of Staff Gen. Eric K. Shinseki with devising an implementation plan
for the entire Army to don the berets.
"This is a great idea - it's a way to pull the Army together,"
Tilley said. "The beret has instilled pride in soldiers for years."
Shinseki announced last week that soldiers will begin wearing the
black beret on June 14, the Army's first birthday of the new millennium.
Shinseki said the beret will be a symbol of the Army's transformation to a
lighter, more deployable force.
"Starting next June, the black beret will be symbolic of our
commitment to transform this magnificent Army into a new force - a
strategically responsive force for the 21st century," Shinseki said. "It
will be a symbol of unity, a symbol of Army excellence, a symbol of our
values. When we wear the beret, it will say that we, the soldiers of the
world's best army, are committed to making ourselves even better."
Tilley said black was chosen for the beret because it's a standard
color that has been worn in the past by soldiers in several types of units.
Prior to the U.S. Army Rangers adopting the black beret in the mid-1970s, it
was worn by armor troops at Fort Knox, Ky., and by those in armored cavalry
units.
"The black beret has been used by light and heavy forces before, on
and off over the years," Tilley said.
The Army's elite Ranger units may select a different color for their
beret, Tilley said.
"I've been talking to the regimental sergeant major," Tilley said,
referring to Command Sgt. Maj. Walter Rakow of the 75th Ranger Regiment
headquartered at Fort Benning, Ga. "We're going to do what's good for him
and what's good for the rest of the Army."
Tilley indicated that Rakow may be part of the group that decides
how wearing of the black beret will be implemented across the Army. The
group will decide how many berets need to be ordered. It will decide what
kind of instruction needs to be provided on how the beret is worn. It will
also recommend when new soldiers will be issued the beret -- for instance
upon graduation from basic training, advanced individual training or perhaps
when they arrive at their first permanent unit.
"It will be a rite of passage," Tilley said of new soldiers donning
the beret, but explained the details have not yet been worked out.
Tilley also indicated that Armywide ceremonies may be planned for
June 14 when soldiers at posts and stations worldwide don the black beret
for the first time. National Guard and Army Reserve soldiers will be
involved as well, for they will also wear the black beret, Tilley said.
He said the BDU cap will remain the optimum headgear in the field
when the kevlar helmet isn't worn. Berets just don't shade the eyes from
sun and hold up to weather the way a cap does, he said.
Tilley said he doesn't expect any new Army regulations on hairstyles
to accompany wear of the berets.
He predicted that the berets may help recruiting, but said that had
nothing to do with the reasoning behind the decision to adopt them.
Tilley said he has been receiving lots of positive e-mail from
soldiers about the berets, but admitted that the comments have been "mixed"
and that some people are less than enamored with the idea. He said young
soldiers seem more excited about the idea of wearing berets than senior NCOs
and veterans.
"I think that it's uplifting for soldiers," Tilley said about
adopting the beret. "It's very positive. It's a part of change. I've been
in the Army a long time and change is part of being a soldier."
And, Tilley said, change is what transformation is all about.

Link to original news item:
http://www.dtic.mil/armylink/news/Oct2000/a20001025beret2.html

[wolfhound227]

So,I get in this morning and I see that TFRANGERMBR has posted on this subject.I think "Cool.." and start to read.As I scroll through the post,envying his command of the english language,I get to the bottom where I read that somebody had made a stupid comment reguarding the 10th Mountain's rescue party in Somolia.Oh,great..now I have to read through the other post to find it.
Evofdestruction-makes this post about how since the 10th M was the rescue force that this somehow entitles the infantry to wear the black beret and that the Rangers were whining.Luckly Guy Jones jumps on him,as did others.Man...
Look,you want to improve morale in the infantry?Get them out training,get them more live-fires,update their equipment and so on.
The 7th Light had distictive head wear,Rag-Tops on our helmets.That was cool.But our headwear was'nt our source of pride,it was the feeling,through our constant training,that in our little corner or the Army we were the nastiest dog in the junk yard.

We were good,but we were'nt RANGERS.
If we wanted to be,we knew where to go.

Marc
A.Co 2/27 7th ID(L)
(oh yes,got the Cornbread album and I love it!!!)

[msg-84]

http://www.*********.com/stories/arm_story_97566.html

Note the paragraph...:

"Despite the opposition to the plan, senior officials insisted that the leadership of the 75th Ranger Regiment was consulted prior to the announcement. They also insist that it represents a positive step for the entire Army."

...Yeah, thats why they where ordered to keep quiet on the issue.

[baboon]

I sympathise with the Rangers on this issue, it would be the equivalent down here of giving everyone the maroon beret worn by Parabats and Special Forces. However if they can't avoid the change by the rest of the army they should change their own colour.
Regarding the ragtops are they worn by anyone in the US Army? Since the Panama war they seem to have disappeared. If you look at photos of other armies (eg. Canadian, British, Danish) soldiers often have helmets properly "scrimmed".

[Tracy]

TF:

Good Post.

IMHO, I think beret decision is a good one, but the color should be earth colored: brown or dark brown. After all, the Armys' job starts, and ends, on the ground. If we screw up, we'll be IN the ground. What better color than earth to remind everyone of that obligation?

Black, Maroon and Green are WIDELY recognized by other military forces for what they represent in the US Army. Let's keep it that way.

[EODestruction]

TFRANGERMEMBER,

That’s right, and I stand by what I said. Sir, with all due respect now you are contradicting yourself. You said regular army soldiers are special, now why are you calling the Regular army pussies? They went out and assisted in the rescue, correct me if I am wrong but are you telling me that the task force would have made it out alive without the Regular army's help? And as for that other gentlemen that got my name wrong read my damn post and don’t twist my words. I said they assisted in the rescue. How dare you sir not give respect to the non-rangers that assisted in the rescue, I held you high regards until that sorry ass statement. They had young soldiers that were there side by side with others during that rescue. They put their life on the line, now is it their fault that they could not shoot lets blame the leaders i.e. NCOS and Officers. I think you owe those soldiers an apology Sir. I don’t care about the post that will come from your loyalist, but sir you know that was not the right statement to make. Some of your soldiers would have died if it were not for that rescue attempt. And this is how you thank them. NO CLASS SIR, NO CLASS AT ALL. First you agree they are special than you call them pussies. I am glad that damn beret distinction is going away, for your words here alone display what has become of the segregated rangers, I thought that us vs. them bullshit was a garrison thing, but now if the rangers felt the same way you did in Mog, then to hell with all of you. I am sure going to get the 'who the hell are you post'. Well to let you know and save you the time I am a fucking bombtech that faces danger every damn day just the same as you rangers, so I have the right to display my opinion. I have disarmed devices that could have killed hundreds of civilians and military members. I am the guy that keeps your family safe from terrorist attacks every damn 24 hours a day 7 days a week. While you train and prepare for war. Eod techs encounter and train on devices that were design to kill not only a couple but also millions of our fellow countrymen and women, yeah your mom and dad. Remember one thing if a weapon of mass destruction is left at your families front door are they going to send rangers I don’t think so the regular army pussies eod techs will be their first. Of course you don’t see us wearing any pretty hats not yet of course http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif. What I am trying to say the regular army has units that are specialized in other areas you rangers cant even live without so don’t go burning bridges.


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INITIAL SUCCESS OR TOTAL FAILURE

[wolfhound227]

Ohh...In that case,Brown Berets,definately Brown.

[jw]

What's your problem? You've made 5 posts and went out of your way to try and piss off people 4 out of 5 times. You missed a key ID feature in sarcasm from TFRM. It was on a different thread. He was using the words of an infantryman that wrote in. As for the whole EOD thing, the operators that have worked with us know our capabilities, the ones that haven't don't need to.
You need to get your head down, watch out for frag and wait your wait time, because you just had a detonation. Learn who's who on here before you start at it again.
Just friendly advice.

[rgr-jc]

Shitstain (a.k.a. EODestruction)
What IS your problem? TFRANGERMEMBER probably won't acknowledge your lame-ass post because he is an officer and a gentleman. Myself on the otherhand can't let this shit you've been spewing go any further without a response. Firts off, I was not in Mog. with said officer,but, I did serve with him and the rest of the Rangers that were there (in peace time). Usually I sit here quietly and watch the flaming with amusement. Why the hell are you here on the 75th's board. This board is for people who have served, are serving, or really want to serve with the best damn unit in the Army. Constructive critisism is fine, but you come across as having a personal dislike for the Ranger Regiment. I know that there is ALOT of good men serving in other units other than the 75th. Thank you for your service as an EOD p.a.c. That said, PLEASE GET THE FUCK OFF OF THIS POST! You are not going to convince anybody that has worn the beret or the scroll that it is a good idea for the whole army to wear it.

R.L.T.W.
rgr-jc

[Dark Helmet]

EODipstick,

You, sir, are a piece of butt lint. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif

[EODestruction]

Well I could feel the love in the room. Nice to see you again TAGDAFAG. I did not know TFRM had his little friends speak on his behalf. Anyway hotshot my question still stands. Do you think you had a chance to survive if the pussies did not rescue you?
I don’t care who you are; officers should not talk about lower enlisted soldiers, regardless of what kind of hat they wear. As for you JW I am sorry if 4 of my 5 post
piss people off. Beautiful words by the way,
that was no Detonation that was more of a low order let me guess you must be air force. Yeah I am going to be really hurt from the vicious post that are coming my
way=( . Well obviously sir you don’t have an answer. And I don’t expect one from a combat photographer.
I CANT WAIT TO GET MY BLACK BERET IN FACT IM GOING TO GET THREE OF THEM.
ONE TO WEAR
ONE AS A SPARE
ONE TO WIPE MY ASS WITH.



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INITIAL SUCCESS OR TOTAL FAILURE

[Dark Helmet]

Originally posted by EODingleberryeater:
Nice to see you again TAGDAFAG. I did not know TFRM had his little friends speak on his behalf.....

Keep it up, EODiarrheamouth, you are making lots of friends here. TFR is one of us. You are a shit-talking worm getting brave behind your little cum-stained monitor screen.

The secret is out. I am a turd-tapper, yes indeedy. Don't sleep on your stomach, cuz yer lookin mighty fine to me right now......don't scream, it will only hurt at first..... http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

[EODestruction]

I knew it tacky,
You are a turd burglar, because when I smelled the shit I thought it was coming out of you ears but in fact it was coming out of your mouth. CANT WAIT TO WERE THE BLACK BERET. YOU COULD JUST CALL ME THE CHICK MAGNET. YOU KNOW WHAT IS NEXT? STERILE UNIFORMS ONLY RANK AND NAME FOR EVERYONE. STILL NO ANSWER ON MY QUESTION SIR.

FORGET IT SIR. I AM GOING TO LEAVE YOUR ELITE CTT GURU FORUM ALONE.



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INITIAL SUCCESS OR TOTAL FAILURE

[Jeff Rambo]

Extra Octane Destructo Kiddy,

I advise you to sit down, place your dildo in left hand, ky in opposite, lube, insert, and shut the fuck up kid. After you're done, I would then apologize to Maj. Shaft for insulting his S-Curl and his usage of Aqua Velva.

Secondly, unless you have the nads to post your real name, and percise location here ... you are a 55D (which I'm having doubts about) who seems to have a bad case of keyboard hero syndrome.

STFUS.

- Out

------------------
Sincerely,
Jeff A. Rambo
NBTNDT
------------------
Disrespect cannot be commanded, it must be earned.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Rambo (edited 10-28-2000).]

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

Hey EOD, my brother, chill yo! like that guys? http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

In a previous post someone who was talking about the 10th MTN trying to make the point about them saving us in MOG made mention that we feel regular army are pussies, which is not true. I was simply making light of that fact in my post, perhaps I should I used quotation marks now shouldnt I?

You would also wonder what kind of person would call the regular army pussies seriously when he has been in command of batteries of these "pussies", companies of these "pusies", seen these "pussies" in Kosovo. Man what a bunch of freaking "pussies" putting their life on the line for the army.

Sorry EOD, but nothing could be more abstract than for me to call them pussies, especially when I am one. That doesnt change my view that Rangers should be the only ones keeping the beret.

And thats all I have to say about that Lieutenant Dan.....

RLTW

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

Sorry I cannot come to the computer the instance I am "attacked", however I have been spending a lot of time with he "pussies" of the army. So I am a somewhat busy man, and this is cutting into my sleep time right now so it will be brief.

EOD, I have not slandered your regular army buddies, because they are mine also. I have never said they didnt do a good job in MOG, I have...because it was my ass on the line, NOT YOURS. Now, I have more pressing matters of affair that I must tend to. And damnit Tack, how did you let them know about the whole Anal Ranger thing?

RLTW

A REGULAR ARMY OFFICER!

[EODestruction]

I did not know that sir, for that i hope you except my apology. And to all Rangers I apologize discrediting the regt. TACKY YOU ARE STILL A TURD BURGLAR. Guy you are correct, I should put some info in the profile will do that later. I still think you guys are asshole but i respect you for your job. but your still assholes.

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INITIAL SUCCESS OR TOTAL FAILURE

[E19]

Originally posted by Jeff Rambo:
Extra Octane Destructo Kiddy,

... you need not speak as you are nothing more than a 55D (which I'm having doubts about) keyboard hero.

STFUS.


- Out




Excuse me Rambo, but who are you to be putting down someone for being "nothing more than a 55D"?
Unless I'm mistaken you have never been in any branch of the service. That would make you nothing more than an "O" Oscar.

TFRM doesn't need any help from an wannabe to defend his person or his posts.

That's my opinion, but then I was nothing more than an 05B4S.

E19 - OUT

[Jeff Rambo]

E19,

When I made my comments about EOD it was in error, as far as the way it was structured, I did not mean to come across as saying 55Ds were worthless etc., as that would be rather dumb of me since I have "nothing more than a [reclassed however] 55D" brother ... my apologies for that, and a correction has been made.

And I'm fully aware of the fact that he (TFRM) does not need anyone to defend himself, nor his posts here on SOCNET, just like I'm sure you don't either.

However, I still stand by my opinion of EOD being a bona fided jackass. Case closed.

------------------
Sincerely,
Jeff A. Rambo
NBTNDT
------------------
Disrespect cannot be commanded, it must be earned.

[Dark Helmet]

Please post more, EODiscardedforeskin. I am finding myself becoming very attracted to you.

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

Tack,

What about you and I? I thought you were my one and only Ranger http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

RLTW

EOD, worry not, I have thick skin. Remember I was once a 2LT, have to have thick skin to surive that.

[Dark Helmet]

Good to have you around again, sir. Boards have not been the same without you lately.....

Polyanna has promised to be around more....hardware issues at the RTB SuperHooch.....

"Though I be the lone survivor......"

[Ranger002]

Ahhh if only....

Me,TFR,TDB,SHARKSTER,POLY,GUY and TRACY, (and the rest of my bros here) a bottle of wesson oil a case of surgical gloves and the willing assholes of SoticGrad,Gumbi,Rat on a Stick,and EOD ( RAMBO I let you join in but hey your underage :-) E19 your're too old and you marine pals well this could get UGLY :-))Thats all I want for Christmas Santa... just to get together with my good friends and fist a few assholes who deserve it. SIIIGH...Oh well... one can still pray for justice.
William Hazen
"Pysch eval"??? "Sir... I already know how to ride a bike what do I need a psych eval for"???

[EODestruction]

HAZEL,

It will take more than a fist to tickle my colon. TFRM you know how pimps slap there bitches but they dont leave them. Tacky loves my tuff love but we can still share him Sir.




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INITIAL SUCCESS OR TOTAL FAILURE

[Ranger002]

I figured as such EOD,

I bet you can park a MAC TRUCK in there... don't worry though... as big as your asshole is we'll find something to satisfy your craving and your propensity to verbalize.
William Hazen

[Whatever]

1. Man, I can FEEL the love in this A.O.

2. Believe that EOD has an Anal Cavity large enough to hold three elephants and a Greyhound bus...

... and a head much to large for ANY Beret.

M White

[Maj. S.T.]

EOD,

Where are you currently stationed?

RLTW,
- Soul

[This message has been edited by Soul (edited 10-28-2000).]

[Jeff Rambo]

Originally posted by RangerHazen:
Ahhh if only....

Me,TFR,TDB,SHARKSTER,POLY,GUY and TRACY, (and the rest of my bros here) a bottle of wesson oil a case of surgical gloves and the willing assholes of SoticGrad,Gumbi,Rat on a Stick,and EOD ( RAMBO I let you join in but hey your underage :-) E19 your're too old and you marine pals well this could get UGLY :-))Thats all I want for Christmas Santa... just to get together with my good friends and fist a few assholes who deserve it. SIIIGH...Oh well... one can still pray for justice.
William Hazen
"Pysch eval"??? "Sir... I already know how to ride a bike what do I need a psych eval for"???

LOL Hazen, thanks for treatin' me like an MP ... I'll now return to coutin' the days until I'm legal ...

:::Hiding bottle of Smirnoff thats half empty:::

(From hearsay) The underaged Drinkers Motto: If the shot glass ain't full you must acquit!

Off I goto UCLA for a Frat Party .... (Charish your teenhood fellow children)

- Out

------------------
Sincerely,
Jeff A. Rambo
NBTNDT
------------------
Disrespect cannot be commanded, it must be earned.

[realpolypro]

Topic: Black Beret

Is it just me? If Shin-digs reason is to bolster morale (Yea), but EVERYONE is wearing them, how special is that? Everyone wears a BDU cap now...(I wear a PC http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif)

Poly
EOD...ah forget it.

[EODestruction]

SOUL
Fort Polk, LA JRTC
this is the place the rangers go to get there ass handed to them, courtesy of the
509th airborne.

[EODestruction]

THEY LOVE TO CRY ALOT TO AS YOU COULD SEE IN ALL THE POST. THEY CRY OF RA HAVING THE SAME BERET, BUT THEY HAVE NOT FOUND A SOLUTION YET.
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INITIAL SUCCESS OR TOTAL FAILURE

[This message has been edited by EODestruction (edited 10-29-2000).]

[Rat on a Stick]

Originally posted by TFRANGERMEMBER:
Ok folks,

I feel this needs attention. For those who say the regular army is "special", I agree. I have been in the RGT, and in the regular army. In the past week I have gotten literally 100 e-mails from Rangers around the country, both past and present, many of whom I have never met nor heard of before. As I sit here with a dip in I can remember what I had to do to get into the RGT. And now I think about what enlistedmen do to get into the RGT. Is the beret just a "hat"...in all senses of the word hat..sure it is. But then again is the Decleration of Independence just a piece of paper? No, and I am not comparing the beret to one of the most important documents in our countries history, but they are symbolic. The beret is symbolic of sacrafices that have been made by Rangers for 200+ years, and the sacrafices all Ranger in history have been willing to make. Does taking away the prestiege of the black beret mean the Ranger RGT will no longer be the best Light INF Rgt in the world? Nope...we will always be the best.

What concerns this officer is what this simple yet rash decision, made by whom I feel is actually a good General, is that the troops have not been asked; as usual. The reasons for this change are insane, wearing of a black beret will not raise the morale of a regular army soldier, it may perhaps drop the morale of Rangers. See those who never wore that beret have no clue how this feels to a Ranger, and I mean a REAL Ranger (IE Scroll), it is like being a buisnessman, you work your ass off to make money. THe minute you make the big bucks the government decides that in order to make the rest of the country feel better they will award each of citizen a large sum of money...now I know how Bill Gates feels.

Rangers, they can take the beret but they cannot take the scroll...and just remember that you guys actually earned it, keep your chins up, keep the Ranger Creed in mind, and drive on.

And to be honest, I will feel weird about wearing the beret not being in the RGT anymore.

RLTW

PS: As far as the pouge who said that the regular army pussies pulled our asses out of MOG...thanks ;-)

the friendly fire helped a lot also.


The U.S. Army is a lost cause...they should just give up and quit.

[spectre]

What a tool. I guess if everyone in one forum frags your ass, you have to go to another huh? You're pathetic. Welcome to the 21st century, fuckboy.

Mo

[Baker]

Nevermind...

[This message has been edited by Baker (edited 10-29-2000).]

[JOE-BOO]

well, just to let everyone know a little something....I have on my desk a briefing (in paper form)of how this is to be implimented.

1. the issue is closed....they are already having the Army Heritage Institute is designing the flashes based off of unit patches and regimental crests.

2. Rangers can stick with the Black or can go with the beret of "Darby's Ranger's" of WWII.
3. Manufactures are already being identified for local purchase for flashes and even overseas manufactures for berets to meet the dead-line


I have more details if anyone wants them.

I can assure you that the DA has moved from planning phase into the execution phase.

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IT AIN'T THE
BARK...IT AIN'T THE
GROWL...ITS THE BITE THAT
HURTS
11ZULU

[JOE-BOO]

well, just to let everyone know a little something....I have on my desk a briefing (in paper form)of how this is to be implimented.

1. the issue is closed....they are already having the Army Heritage Institute is designing the flashes based off of unit patches and regimental crests.

2. Rangers can stick with the Black or can go with the beret of "Darby's Ranger's" of WWII.
3. Manufactures are already being identified for local purchase for flashes and even overseas manufactures for berets to meet the dead-line


I have more details if anyone wants them.

I can assure you that the DA has moved from planning phase into the execution phase.

------------------

IT AIN'T THE
BARK...IT AIN'T THE
GROWL...ITS THE BITE THAT
HURTS
11ZULU

[SuaSponte]

More setails please. Your email address seems to not work.

[JOE-BOO]

sorry guys...forgot to change my e-mail on the profile....LTGIJOEY@hotmail.com

[RougeWarrior]

My WWII knowledge is a bit rusty, what color was the berets of Darby's Rangers?

[SuaSponte]

Dark green a la limey commandos who trained them -- never worn since rmy prohibited use.

[LRSC Grunt]

Ya well it aint june yet sir. You also have to take into consideration that an election is only days away. Inaguration brings a new secratary of defense, secratary of the army, JCS, Army COS....

I would like to see an executive order protecting the black beret, like what JFK did for SF.

[E19]

I would suggest a special flash for General
Shitskei.

A flash in "Horseshit Brown" and a crest in the shape of a "Horses Ass" either gold or silver. The General should be ordered to blouse his socks with low quarters.

[Ranger1]

Men,

I was searching the press briefing and press release section of the White House website, and couldn't find one friggin official statement about Clinton's standpoint on the whole 'army-wide' black beret issue.I even called the press office and had them do a search for me while I was on the phone, and they also told me that they have not official comment from the President. You'd think that, (considering Oct 1993), that he would have heard and said something by now.

However, I did find this.

THE WHITE HOUSE

Office of the Press Secretary
__________________________________________________ ____________
For Immediate Release November 11, 1993


REMARKS BY THE PRESIDENT
AT WREATH-LAYING CEREMONY AT ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY


Tomb of the Unknown Soldier
Arlington National Cemetery
Arlington, Virginia


11:35 A.M. EST


THE PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. Secretary Brown,
General Brady, distinguished leaders of our veterans' organizations,
Secretary Aspin and General Shalikashvili and the leaders of our
Department of Defense and our military services. And to all of you,
my fellow Americans.

Today we gather to honor those who have rendered the
highest service any American can offer to this nation: Those who
have fought for our freedom and stood sentry over our security. On
this hillside of solemn remembrance, and at gravesides and veterans'
halls and in proud parades all across America, today we join as one
people to appreciate a debt we can never fully repay.

Every American who ever put on this nation's uniform in
war or peace has assumed risks and made sacrifices on our common
behalf. Each of the 1.6 million men and women now in our forces
today bears our common burden. This day belongs to all of them -- to
all who have protected our land we love over all the decades, and
now, over two centuries of our existence.

From the Minutemen who won our independence, to the
warriors who turned back aggression in Operation Desert Storm. It
belongs to those who fell in battle and those who stood ready to do
so. To those who were wounded and those who treated their wounds.
To those who returned from the service to friends and families, and
to the far too many who remain missing.

We honor our veterans on this day because it marks the
end of the first world war. On the 11th hour of the 11th day of the
11th month there crept an eerie silence across the battlefields of
Europe and four years of unbelievable destruction then came to an
end.

Today on the 75th anniversary of that great war, it is
fitting for us to recall and salute those from every service who
contributed to the allied victory, embodied today by the fine figure
of Mr. Coolbaugh who stood here and received this medal.

Our victory in that "war to end all wars" was a great
test of whether our nation then could reach out and become involved
in the rest of the world. Many of the soldiers who fought in that
war, including the men whom we honored here today, were born in
another century, a time in which America felt secure on this great
and vast continent protected by two oceans.

We entered World War I knowing that we could no longer
run from the rest of the world. But in the end, while that war
proved our strength, it did not prove our wisdom. For within the
span of a short generation after it, we neglected during a careless
peace what had been so dearly won in a relentless war.

We turned our backs on the rest of the world. We
ignored new signs of danger. We let our troops and arms fall out of
readiness. We neglected opportunities for collective security in our
own national interest. We succumbed to the siren's song of
protectionism and erected walls against peaceful commerce with other
nations. Soon we had a Great Depression, and soon that depression
led to aggression and then to another world war, one that would claim
a half million American lives.

Now, once more we stand at the end of a great conflict.
The Cold War is over. The lesson America won in second world war led
us to contain communism in the Cold War and led to the greatest
peacetime victory the world has ever known, the collapse of the
communist system and the Soviet empire. Our long and twilight
struggle against that expansionist adversary has ended. And even as
the world marvels at this achievement, once again history is about to
take the measure of our wisdom.

Our generation is being asked now to decide whether we
will preserve freedom's gains and learn freedom's lessons. We are
being asked to decide whether we will maintain the high state of
readiness that stood behind our victory, or fritter away the seed
corn of our security; asked whether we will swell the global tide
freedom by promoting democracy and open world markets, or neglect the
duty of our leadership and the process and, in the withdrawal,
diminish hope and prosperity not only for our own people, but for
billions of others throughout the world who look to us.

One of the greatest honors we can pay to our veterans on
this Veterans Day is to act with the sufficient wisdom necessary to
preserve the gains they have won through their hard service and great
sacrifice. To honor those who served in Europe and Korea and Vietnam
and the Persian Gulf, in scores of posts at home and abroad, let us
today resolve we will not stray from the responsibilities necessary
to keep our nation secure and our people prosperous.

We also honor our veterans today by noting the
outstanding service being rendered around the world at this moment by
the most talented and the best prepared group of men and women who
have ever worn our nation's uniform. (Applause.)

This morning I had the privilege and the honor to host
for breakfast not only the leaders of our nation's veterans'
organizations, but also 17 of the Army Rangers Special Operations
forces and infantrymen who recently returned from our mission in
Somalia. (Applause.) Afterwards, I invited them and their
commanders into the Oval Office where we sat and had a visit. I was
profoundly impressed by them and by their service.

Not enough of our fellow Americans know the real story
of what happened during the terribly difficult firefight in Mogadishu
on October 3rd -- a fight in which they demonstrated great ability,
success and unbelievable valor. During that raid, a Blackhawk
helicopter was downed. Despite this setback the Special Operations
forces conducted their raid with precision, apprehending 20 people
suspected of involvement in the murder of United Nations peacekeepers
in the Somali mission. At that point, they could have pulled back to
safety, confident in the success of their mission. After all, what
they had come to do was over. But they share an ethic that says they
can never leave a fallen comrade behind.

So some 90 of them formed a parameter around the downed
aircraft in an attempt to retrieve the wounded and the dead. They
found they could not dislodge the body of one pilot, but they refused
to leave him behind. They braved hours and hours of the fiercest
enemy fire. Eighteen of them ultimately perished; over 70 were
wounded. They exacted a terrible toll on their adversaries;
casualties 10 times as great, fatalities 20 times as great.

I want to note their presence with us here today. I
want to thank them. And I want you to let them know that we know
they did their mission well and that we are proud of them.
(Applause.) Please stand up. Here they are. Please stand up.
(Applause.)

We owe it to them and to their colleagues to ensure that
our forces remain the best trained, the best equipped, the best
prepared in the world. And we will do that. We also owe those who
serve in our nation's military the assurance that what they have done
for us will not be forgotten. We owe to our veterans a health care
system that is there for them when they need it and provides high
quality and compassionate care. (Applause.) We owe to our veterans
a measure of the security they have provided to us. And that is why,
earlier today, I was proud to sign a bill which helps to increase the
retirements benefits of our disabled veterans. (Applause.)

And as we remember all of those whom we see today and
those whom we can imagine who are serving for us or who have served,
we must never forget those who were never accounted for. That
obligation never dies until we know the whole truth.

Just this month, we secured an agreement from the
Chinese to return the remains of three American aviators whose cargo
plane crashed there in the Himalayas in 1943. Our nation has a
particular responsibility to pursue the fate of our missing from the
war in Vietnam. (Applause.) On Memorial Day, I pledged here that
our government would declassify and make available virtually all
documents related to those who never returned from that war, and that
I would do it by this day, Veterans Day. I can tell you that last
evening, the Secretary of Defense completed that task. That promise
has been fulfilled. (Applause.) I know that our government, our
nation together have a solemn obligation to the families of those who
are missing to do all we can to help them find answers and peace of
mind.

Every year, our humble words on Veterans Day can never
do justice to the sacrifices made by our veterans: by those who
returned and those who did not; by those who live among us today and
those who live only in our memories. We know we can never repay the
debt, but still we try because we know their sacrifices should be in
our hearts every day.

So on this day let us simply repeat to America's
veterans what is inscribed on the medals that have been awarded to
thousands of those who served in World War I: A grateful nation
remembers.

Thank you very much. (Applause.)

END11:47 A.M. EST

With words like these (while I realise hes the Prez and has to say stuff like this), and his history in relation to Regt, there may be hope. Someone just needs to get his ear.

-Kirk




[This message has been edited by Kirk (edited 11-03-2000).]

[Ranger1]

Men,

Just got off he phone with Department of the Army Public Affairs Office, and the receptionist told me that she would have a
LtCol. Wheelahan (whom she said was ex-SF)call me back and discuss what is currently the Army's offcial standpoint. She's also sending the latest Army press release and back ground info (which I will post here).

I asked her, to her knowledge, if it was still going ahead. She said while everything hadn't been finalised (or approved by the JCS), that all indications are that it is as good as a 'done-deal'.

More to follow.

-Kirk

[Ranger1]

Man that was quick.

From: "Bean, J C Ms OCPA" <J.Bean@HQDA.Army.Mil>
To: "'Michael Kirk in UK'" <mk-2739@mail.necgroup.co.uk>
Subject: FW: info on berets
Date sent: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:01:00 -0500


As discussed.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wheelehan, William L LTC OCPA
> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 4:23 PM
> To: Beverly Botchway; Dean Sprague; Frederick Findtner; J Bean; Joyce
> Rowell; Keith Butler
> Subject: info on berets
>
> all, here is some info to share with the public on the issue of the
> berets. hope it helps. keep track of any public queries or comments you
> get on this. thanks.
>
> <<Black Beret Public RESPONSE TO QUERY.doc>>
>
> also, here are Qs and As at the end of this document
> <<Big Berret Document.doc>>

DRAFT INFORMATION PAPER

SUBJECT: Background of the Modern Military Beret

1. PURPOSE. To provide historical background on black military beret.

2. DISCUSSION.

a. DEVELOPMENT OF MILITARY BERET

(1) Modern military beret derives from need for practical headgear more than elite status.

(2) On 2 May 1924, the British Royal Tank Regiment adopted for crewmen, in place of stiff khaki cap, soft beret in black to hide grease stains.

(3) British pattern, based on Scottish highland bonnet and French Bretonne beret set world standard for color and use.

(a) On 29 Jul 42, Airborne Forces adopted maroon beret color.

(b) On 24 Oct 42, Special Service BDE (Commando) adopted green beret color traditionally worn by rifle units.

(4) U.S. ARMY ADOPTION OF BLACK MILITARY BERET

(a) On 25 Sep 61, DA approved rifle-green beret for Special Forces, establishing headgear as elite unit distinction.

(b) From 1973 to 1979, DA encouraged morale-enhancing headgear, and Armor personnel wear black "tanker" beret.

(c ) In 1975, DA approved black beret for personnel of Ranger units.

(d) In 1980, DA approved the maroon beret for wear by Airborne units.

3. WHY THE BLACK BERET FOR ALL U.S. ARMY SOLDIERS?

a. The beret is a symbol of excellence and it is time for the Army to accept the challenge of excellence the beret represents.

b. The beret represents another step toward achieving the capabilities of the objective force and the Army's commitment to transformation.

c. It is important for soldiers to understand what the beret represents, its heritage of excellence and the capabilities of the objective force it foretells.

4. OPTIONS FOR SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCES AND DISTINCTIVE HEADGEAR.

a. Special Operations and Airborne units will retain their distinctive berets.

RESPONSE TO QUERY - CSA ANNOUNCEMENT re. BLACK BERETS

At the Eisenhower luncheon at the AUSA convention today [Oct. 17] , Chief of Staff of the Army Gen. Eric K. Shinseki announced that,

"Last week, I had the privilege of officiating at the change of command ceremony for the U.S. Army Special Operations Command. I had the opportunity to thank the men and women of those proud units, whose accomplishments are legendary and whose capabilities are unmatched anywhere. Their agility, deployability and strategic responsiveness are due in part to their organizational structure and equipment. But more significnt is their adaptiveness, which keeps them always ready to take on any mission, anytime, anywhere. And as I stood looking at those formations, I was reminded of the special significance that the beret has come to symbolize for the United States Army.
It is time for the entire Army to accept the challenge of excellence that has so long been a hallmark of our special operations and airborne units. As another step towards achieving the capabilities of the objective force, effective 14 June 2001, the first Army birthday of the new millennium, the Army will don its new headgear. The black beret will become the Army standard. Special operations and airborne units will retain their distinctive berets. But starting next June, the black beret will be symbolic of our commitment to transform this magnificent Army into a new force -- a strategically responsive force for the 21st century. It will be a symbol of unity, a symbol of Army excellence, a symbol of our values. When we wear the black beret, it will say that we, the soldiers of the world's best Army, are committed to making ourselves even better. Regardless of rank, regardless of branch, regardless of component, every soldier who meets the standard will wear the Army beret. I will task Sergeant Major of the Army Tilley to lead the effort to craft implementing guidelines and establish standards that all soldiers will meet. Once that plan is approved, we will don the black beret and move out."

Talking Points

· The beret is a symbol of excellence and it is time for the Army to accept the challenge of excellence the beret represents.

· The beret represents another step to achieving the capabilities of the objective force and the Army's commitment to transformation.

· Special Operations and Airborne units will retain their distinctive berets.

· Change is frequently met with some resistance. It is important for soldiers to understand what the beret represents, its heritage of excellence and the capabilities of the objective force it foretells.


Q1. Why is the Army making this change? What is the purpose?

A1. The Army is in the process of transforming itself into a force that is strategically responsive and dominant at any point on the spectrum of operations. The ultimate goal is to achieve an objective force that is responsive, deployable, agile, versatile, lethal, survivable, and sustainable. The black beret that soldiers will wear will be the symbol of Army unity, excellence and values.

Q2. Which company will get the contract to produce the berets for the Army?

A2. The procurement process will be contingent upon approval of the Sergeant Major of the Army's implementation plan.

Q3. What will be the rules for wear of the beret?

A3. Sergeant Major of the Army Jack Tilley will be developing the implementing guidelines and establishing the standards all soldiers will meet in order to be eligible to wear the beret.

Q4. Will airborne and special operations soldiers be allowed to continue to wear maroon and green berets, respectively? What about the Rangers -- will they continue to wear black berets now that they are to be standard issue?

A4. Yes, airborne and special operations soldiers be allowed to continue to wear maroon and green berets. The Sergeant Major of the Army will develop the guidelines and establish standards for the wear of the black beret.

Q5. Do you think soldiers will like the idea of wearing berets?

A5. Ask the soldiers. Soldiers in airborne, special operations and Rangers units have worn berets for many years now.

Q6. Will this decision diminish the distinction and prestige of wearing the black beret?

A6. The Army's leadership has no intention of diminishing the distinction and prestige of the black beret in deciding to affect this change in uniform policy.


Q7. Do you anticipate any grumbling from soldiers who are now authorized to wear berets as distinctive headgear?

A7. Changes in uniform policy can and often do lead to discussion amongst soldiers. There is likely to be a spectrum of personal opinions.

Q8. Was this decision coordinated with Special Operations Command?

A8. Yes. This initiative was discussed and coordinated with Special Operations Command prior to Gen. Shinseki's announcement.

Q9. What is the history and significance of the black beret? What soldiers are currently authorized to wear it?

A9. The modern military beret derives from original need for practical headgear more than ethnic origin or elite status. In May 1924, the British Royal Tank Regiment adopted for crewmen, in place of stiff khaki cap, a soft beret in black to hide grease stains. The British pattern, based on a Scottish highland bonnet and French Bretonne beret, set the world standard for color and use. In July 1942, Airborne Forces adopted a maroon beret and the color was supposedly selected by novelist Daphne Du Maurier. In October 1942, Special Service Brigade (Commando) adopted a green beret, the color traditionally worn by rifle units.

In September 1961, Department of the Army approved the rifle-green beret for Special Forces, establishing headgear as elite unit distinction. From 1973 to 1979, Department of the Army encouraged morale-enhancing headgear and Armor personnel wore a black "tanker" beret. In 1975, Department of the Army approved a black beret for personnel of Ranger units.

Q10. Why Black? Were other colors considered?

A10. TBD

Q11. Will the Rangers keep the black beret or have some other type/color of headgear?

A11. TBD

Q12. Will the guard and reserve also wear the Beret?

A12. Yes.

Q13. How much will the change cost the Army?

A13. TBD

This may be the same thing that Razor posted about on the SOF only board. The other doc is the CSA response to query that is posted on this BB in couple of places (talking about the raincoat, etc.)


I think the Q&A section of this post clearly sets out exactly how little thought and process really went into this decision. Questions 5, 6, 7 and 10 are my favourites.


Fire for effect.

-Kirk

[LRSC Grunt]

Elite Rangers and new Army chief of staff involved in hat spat

The decision by Gen. Eric Shinseki to make the black beret common headgear for soldiers has caused a stir.

By Michael Kilian
KNIGHT RIDDER NEWS SERVICE

WASHINGTON - One of the things you learn quickly in the military is to never, ever rile an Army Ranger, as foes have learned the hard way from Normandy to the Middle East.

Yet the new Army chief of staff, Gen. Eric Shinseki, has managed to rile battalions of them in a single swoop, issuing an order that will make the elite commando force's cherished black beret ordinary headgear for every soldier, including members of the National Guard and Reserves.

The Rangers, famed for their "extreme prejudice" form of combat and ability to survive by eating rats, snakes and insects, are not taking the order lightly.

"This is the dumbest decision the Army has made since Custer's Last Stand," said retired Maj. Jim Grimshaw, president of the U.S. Army Ranger Association. "This is a treasured symbol you should have to earn versus just giving it away."

Grimshaw's and other Ranger groups, representing veterans of World War II, Korea, Vietnam and more recent conflicts, have fired off protests to Shinseki; Gen. Hugh Shelton, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; Army Secretary Louis Caldera; and members of the House and Senate Armed Services Committees.

Grimshaw said his group was receiving 40 to 50 calls and e-mail messages a day from current and former Rangers strongly opposed to Shinseki's move.

According to Grimshaw, Shelton responded to the association's complaint with a one-sentence reply, saying he was referring the matter back to Shinseki.

Shinseki's office has made no official reply.

Emmett Hiltibrand, president of the 75th Ranger Regiment Association, representing a unit famous for its long-range jungle patrols in the Vietnam War, called the order "an absurdity."

"This is a life-or-death issue for the beret," Hiltibrand said in a letter to all Rangers. "We must either be successful in this endeavor or we will lose everything we have ever stood for. . . . It is ludicrous to think that putting a black beret on common soldiers will make them professional. Unfortunately, before he [Shinseki] would have ever realized the error he has made, he would have destroyed 40-plus years of uncommon valor."

"It's an infringement and a slap in the face," said Mark Christianson, a veteran of the 82d Airborne Division and the Persian Gulf war.

Others emphasized how much more vigorous training was for Rangers than for ordinary soldiers.

"We would be awakened at 2 a.m. and find ourselves doing a 14-mile run for the fun of it," said former Ranger Edward Hayes of Chicago. "Sometimes we would get in an airplane, jump out over Alabama, and walk back [to Fort Benning, Ga.]. That's not what ordinary soldiers do."

When he ordered the change Oct. 17, Shinseki said: "It is time for the entire Army to accept the challenge of excellence that has so long been a hallmark of our special operations and airborne units. As another step toward achieving the capabilities of the objective force, effective 14 June 2001, the first Army birthday of the new millennium, the Army will don its new headgear. . . . The black beret will be symbolic of our commitment to transform this magnificent Army into a new force."

Army spokeswoman Martha Rudd said the selection of the black beret was, in part, a fashion decision.

"It's the only color that will go with all the uniforms that are worn in the Army," she said. "This is a change, and any change is always going to be met with resistance."

Rudd said the Army's Special Forces would be allowed to retain their distinctive green beret and the airborne its maroon beret. All units in the Army will continue to use the flat-top soft fatigue cap called the BDU when in the field, she said.

Army Sgt. Maj. Jack Tiley, the highest-ranking enlisted man in the service, has formed a group of senior noncommissioned officers to determine what uniform items are to be discontinued in the switch and to seek an alternative for the Rangers.

"He's going to try to find something distinctive," Rudd said.

Grimshaw said he and the leaders of other Rangers associations were instructing active-duty Rangers to follow the new orders without question. In the meantime, the retired veterans will take the offensive.

"We want to try to resolve this through Army channels," he said. "We're organizing a squad of retired Ranger generals to deal with this, four-star to four-star."

If that fails, he said, the Rangers will turn to the next president and seek an executive order declaring the black beret the property of the Rangers.

In the meantime, Grimshaw said he feared for the first Army cooks, clerks or computer technicians who were made to wear the warrior headpiece.

"What's going to happen the first time an unsuspecting regular soldier in a black beret walks into a bar that is frequented by Rangers?" he asked.

[bmf]

I truly hate to tread on your site but I feel this needs to be said. As an EOD tech (Navy type) I have the utmost respect for my compadres in the Ranger Bats. Down here at Eglin I have jumped with the 6th a few times and have nothing but good to say about these men. The "other" EOD type on here (leg obviously) probably failed out of RIP and can't let it go. He does NOT speak for our community. I doubt he has ever stood in the door and took the "ride" to work. Let me apologize for his stupidity. I ask that you don't let his posts represent your opinions of the EOD community(even army EOD).
Lastly, I personally feel that it is a great disservice to America's premier light fighters to take away one of their symbols.

Let EODdestruction talk shit and I WILL check him. I'm embarassed that I let him slip through our school.
Rangers lead the way!
BMF
US Navy EOD
Eglin AFB

[Sharky]

BMF! Hooooaaaaahhhhh! Welcome to the board and feel free to stop by anytime you get a chance. Keep up the good work.

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[Felix]

To all of you, sorry for the intrusion. EODUMBASS....you goddamned jerk. Did you read my post on the EOD board? Obviously not...you assclown. Have you done enough damage? How much more of your ass are you going to show? Maybe you should spend more time at the shop training/supporting these guys in the real world than getting on here and acting like a fool. Come back to the EOD board and we can discuss it.

[The Extreme]

I just received word that Dan Duquette, in the wake of a disappointing season, has announced that the Red Sox will wear a navy blue beret with the red B for the 2001 season. This dramtic move is in effort to improve the teams morale and symbolize the transition into the post-Curse of the Bambino era 21st century. The standard "BDU style" cap will still be authorized for pre-game warmup and post-game interviews.

Nomar Garciaparra commented, "this is absolutely ridiculous. If you wanna raise moral, you shouldn't change our headgear. You should raise our salaries or reduce our out-of-town deployments. Have you seen those berets? They are absolutely the gayest, most affeminate looking piece of headgear he coulda chosen. What am I? A silly little Frenchman?"

[RogueExec]

.



[This message has been edited by RogueExec (edited 12-22-2000).]