Getting citizenship

[pete]

I am a Canadian citizen, and am seriously looking into becoming an American so i can join the military(with hopes of getting into buds). I was told that if you have family in the US,(which i do) they can sponsor you. what is that and how does that work? Any information would be great thank you.

[Mike]

Well, you can move in the U.S. and then go to the local recruiter office. You do not have to be a U.S. citizen to become an enisted personnel, but if youw ant to be come an officer, U.S. citizenship is required for obvious reasons. You can sta with your family for a while until the recruiter tells you in how many weeks you can go back to enlist.

[BK101484]

Well ... you have a long journey ahead of you. First you must get a Alien Residency which takes two years to get and then after an aditional three years to be able to apply for citizenship. And after you apply it take a supposed 6 months even although i have never heard it done that quickly. It took my mom two years from the time she for citizenship applied to actually being sworn in.So your looking at basicaly 5 years minimum but then again My mom is not from Canada so maybe there are some relaxed rules with you guys....... wish you luck. And i hope this could help.

Your neigbor to the south.

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[BK101484]

and you need to be an american to go to bud/s

[Cole]

Pete, Why would you want to leave Canada? Is the SEALs something specifically that attracts you, or do SpecOps units in general appeal to you. You can always try for the JTF-2 if you desire to be an operator. Just curious on why you would want to take the extra hassle to be a SEAL.

[Daredevil]

It's true you don't have to be a US Citizen to enlist but if you want any job in the military that requires a SECRET clearance (like the SEALs) you do need to be a US citizen. One friend of mine who was a Ranger said that one of the Army Cooks in Savannah was from some European Ranger type unit but he could only be a cook.

During the Vietnam war there was a program setup to help Canadians interested in joining the US military without the above restrictions. Some 30,000 Canadians took advantage of it (we sent you 10,000 cowardly draft dodgers in exchange for 30,000 brave men, good exchange for us I'd say). I don't know if it still exists but it might be something you can try to check on. I think a recruiting office can tell you best. Or maybe the State Department.

[pete]

Cole,

Iam not neccesarily going to go to the US, i just am curious, i know more about the SEALs than i do JTF. So my mind is SEAL,SEAL,SEAL. I am really confused, i mean, i want to be in spec ops, no doubt about it. But i don't know where to go. If i get into any it would be great. I also realize that the US military offers more benefits than the Canadian. You guys are also funded really well(so Canadians think)this all appeals to me, but than i say to my self, do i want to go down there going through all the hassels to get citizenship and than try out for the SEALs and not get in or get injured and be stuck on some ship chipping paint. Iam only 17 years old(turning 18) i am going to college and want to be in the special forces,like i said earlier iam obsessed with the SEALs.I just don't know what to do...

[Enfield]

You have a lot of options, actually. Firstly, I'd say join the Army Reserves - that'll give you a far better taste of what's to come, and you'll learn more about the military and various units. And it gives you a good head start when you apply to wherever.
As a Canadian, you can,without any hassles, join the British military. That gives you access to the Paras and Royal Marines right away,and if you feel up to it, try out for SBS or SAS or whatever.
You can, if you really want to bust your nuts, join the Legion, but I think a college degree would be wasted there *grin*
The US may have FAR more money than Canada, and better technology, but (and the Yanks are really gonna flame me for this) we consider ourselves (I'm putting this as delicatley as I can) much better trained than the US military. And JTF isn't lacking for funds...
Explore your options some more, check out the Brits, and talk to the US military yourself, call them or write or something (they won't send you info via the websites, I tried) The SEALs may be famous, but there is more out there!

Cheers!
Enfield

[pete]

Enfield,
I am in the reserves currently, i belong to RHF of C. I enjoy it and want more. you are right, i should explore my options. Its just that the SEALs are so popular, that is a reason why iam drawn to it. As well though, i see BUDs and i want to see if i could get through it. I mean it looks like a good challenge to take. And on aside i do agree with you that Canadian troops are one of the best trained out there, we just don't have money.

[knight77]

Sounds like you want to join for the wrong reasons.

[Cole]

Pete, if one of your reasons for joining the US military is lack of funding in Canada, you are in for a surprise. The effect of budget cuts on the US military is worse then ours.

[pete]

Knight77, what do you mean, what does is sound like to you? I want to be in an organization that does not have to worry about being disbanded due to funds. I am not wanting to joing the SF for money, i want to join for the challenges, adventure and experience of a lifetime, and to do something worth while to society. I am merely stating opinions. I here shit from people and i dont know what to believe. I do think for my self, and have been making huge decisions for my self without help from people. I am told that the CF is underfunded, not as many benefits,which i see and know is fairly true. I don't know alot about JTF, i have been to there web sites and only know that they are Canadas elit anti-terrorist unit. I am trying to get my hands on the recruiting video so i can see them in action. I have a cousin in the SEALs and that is partialy why i am so into them. I know more about them than any other specops unit out there.Not to say i am not aware of the other elite units out there in the world, there are many units that can compete or even beat the SEALs.Knight77 i would like to know what you ment that i want to join for the wrong reasons.

[recce_o]

This whole issue of Canadian troops being better trained really should be addressed. The only reason why Canadian troops have this mistaken belief is because we never get the opportunity to truly test our training under realistic conditions.

We don't have the money to organize anything beyond company level training, let alone combined arms operations. When was the last time you actually used the MILES system in Canada? I've never seen it. We have nothing that even comes close to the U.S. National Training Centre. It is very easy to believe that our training is best when it's never been put to the test.

I think it is more accurate to say that Canadian troops are better motivated. This is what allows us to suceeds, IN SPITE of the crappy equipment, dated doctrine, lack of realistic training and political correctness constraints.

[This message has been edited by recce_o (edited 04-26-2000).]

[knight77]

this is the part that caught my attention
"Its just that the SEALs are so popular, that is a reason why iam drawn to it."

the other reasons you stated I consider legit, but people could understandably misinterput what you mean. I'm not critizing you or trying to start something, just putting in my $.02

[pete]

knight77 i don't mean for that to sound like i just want to join because they are popular. I meant in that statement that i know alot about them and that is why iam drawn to them. i realize how that sounds i dont want to be thought of some kid who just wants to be with the popular team so i can say that I AM A NAVY SEAL!! i don't want the title i want to do the job.

[Big_King]

Pete, I 'm reading what you're saying and understanding what you mean, because I found myself in the same predicament before. Let me elaborate.

I won't go into detail about myself, except that I'm a canadian too and I got caught up in the SEAL craze, and the allure that such highly hollywoodized and publicized unit gives off, and i don't see anyting wrong with wanting to join the SEALs because of their reputation. There's nothing better to get recruits, than to show them the highly skilled, highly trained, and highly MOTIVATED elite members of the U.S. Navy. I emphasize motivated though because the Navy only wants those who are truly dedicated to their job as Navy SEALs, not slackers who join for the recognition or the bragging rights. It can't be for anyone but yourself.

With that said, all I can say is try to think realistically. Because you're 17, and Canadian (God Bless Us), you're going to have to deal with university, citizenship and by the time you make it to BUD/S, age. Think about the opportunities available to you now. The CF is a great organization, which you are probably already familiar with, that has many areas of advanced training (airborne, mountain warfare, sniper training, reconnaissance, and of course JTF-2). Finally Enfield (who helped me out), gives a good idea: once you're finished with university (should you chose to take that route), the British military is open for you, with no citizenship hassles, which means the SAS and SBS, and at the risk of starting a flame war, I'm sure you're aware both these units are considered top notch, if not top spot in their respective areas, and (correct me if I'm off here) they no doubt see more action than JTF-2. Just head over to the Royal Army site and Royal Marines site and the Brit recruiters will be more than glad to send you info if you ask nicely and send them some cookies. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

Hope, this helps coming from someone who was in your position.

[Fred]

Hah! Consider yourself better trained? I'm gonna wet my pants. Let me know when you guys join the varsity ranks, and I don't mean buggering Somali adolescents.

[BK101484]

Fred .... I dont think any one could have said it better

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[Cole]

Well, what can I say in response. After all, the US Commander in Chief is the master operater in insertions!

[Daredevil]

You aren't the first Canadian I've seen with this question to be honest. Time isn't that much of a concern. You can go to BUD/S up until you're 28 years old without having to worry about waiver restrictions.

Funny thing is, my brother had considered trying to get into the British military to get a shot at the SAS because he wasn't interested in the SEALs. You seem to have the opposite thing going on. I guess the grass always looks greener on the other side. The SAS is almost as highly publicized as the SEALs (they're extreme amounts of books on them). While you're young you should research them also. There's definitely nothing wrong with being a part of that outfit. If being involved with a unit that specializes in waterborne operations appeals to you, then SEALs are definitely the way to go. But if it's just all around special operations then the SAS might be an easier call. It's hard to say though, because as I understand it, SAS instructors will just walk up to you and drop you from training for no reason and without explanation. SEAL instructors can do that but I think the high dropout rate doesn't make them do it that often.

[Daredevil]

I'll leave the question of Canadians being better trained than Americans to the been-there-done-that professionals on here but I will say I find it entirely believable that the average Canadian grunt is more motivated than the average US grunt. The operational tempo of even the average GI in this country is such that they are away from home most of the year. The military is becoming more demoralized as a result due to things like missing one's family, higher divorce rates, etc. Maybe I just don't hear about it in the news but I'm under the impression that Canadian forces don't deploy that often. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, with warfare changing these days, I wonder if the Canadian military is doing any training under the "three block war" concept that a lot of the US units are starting to do.

[FNG]

Well, the question of who is better trained has always been a hot issue. This is really comparing apples and oranges. Canadians have pulled off some pretty amazing victories against US forces. Take for example the time when the PPCLI went to the NTC, or the annual ex out in Eastern Canada involving Brits, US, and CDN troops.

I can't say for a fact that CDN troops are better trained than US troops. I don't know enough about US training to say that. But the general consensus within the CF is that US Army troops specialize too much within their trade, whereas your average Canadian infanteer leave basic with the skills to do anything... be an anti tank gunner, mortarmen, machine gunner, recce patrolman, etc. Does this necessarily mean CF soldiers are much better? Not really, because this is born out of neccessity. We only have 90,000 regular and reserve members in the military, so we can't afford to specialize. Whereas in the US, with more than a million people, they don't have the money to be general.
Because of this generalization, US troops are sometimes surprised that a regular CF infanteer is conducting missions that fall into the domain of 'special ops'. That might contribute to the feeling of who's better.

I used to be quite adament about the fact that Canadian soldiers are the best in the world, but even though I still have this belief (who isn't proud of their own country?), I have learned that US troops also work hard and play hard, and as our allies on the same continent, they are worthy of our respect. When we get out onto the field, we will all get our jobs done... Canadian or American.

As to the issue of deployments, I disagree. The Canadian military as I said only has 90,000 soldiers in regular and reserve forces. Now if you take out those in the Navy and the Air Force, you are left with about 30,000 to 40,000 regular and reserve personnel in the Army itself. If you limit that amount to combat arms which are capable of being deployed to peacekeeping or other Operations Other than War, then you only have Infantry, Armour, Medical, and some logistics (if I left out anyone, let me know)... This number is probably less than 10,000-15,000 people... many of them being reservists who don't have to go on overseas duty unless they volunteer (and many do volunteer, at one time I heard, a tour had 80% reservists and 20% regulars)
So if you look at Canada's overseas committments right now, there are 3334 soldiers deployed (DND website)...with the highest numbers in KFOR and SFOR.
Today, the situation is a bit better than when it was in the mid 1990s, when the former Yugoslavia was at open war. During those times, it is not uncommon for regular force soldiers to serve one or two tours a year... imagine that. Six months per tour... away from home. Even some reservists were called to serve consecutive tours because they were so undermanned overseas with respect to the government's committments.
So if you look at infantry regiments across Canada (regular force), you would see that most members have UN tour medals on their uniforms.

Don't forget that during those times in the mid 90s, 'peacekeeping' tours were rough. CF soldiers are constantly under fire from each faction. Many of you may not have heard of the Battle of Medak Pocket, where CF peacekeepers engaged the Croatians in a multi-day battle. Most Canadians have not heard of it either unfortunately.
Other rough places CF soldiers have been 'peacekeeping' in would be Cyprus, smack in the middle of the Turkish invasion...another war. Somalia, where at first, our Airborne Regiment landed along side US (Airborne? or Ranger?) troops in US helos ready for battle.

Now I must say that I don't know how many percent of the total US Army get sent away on operations, or how many ops they have been on, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I have said above shows what Canada has been doing in the past few decades.

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pete: If you are looking for that JTF video still, look for the CANFORGEN regarding the JTF recruitment. There is a number you can call to contact the JTF recruiting WO. Also, read the Maple Leaf for dates when the JTF recruiters tour around Canada. I believe they give an info session to interested members prior to their tests. I think they show the video then.

[Mike]

Every countries will said their military is better than you or them.
But money sometimes will tell you who is better. Your current PM cuts the defense budget. There are no Canadian Forces assigned to NATO bases in Europe anymore (the last base, Lahr CFB in Germany was closed). Sure, Canada may have the most expertise in peacekeeping. But they have more experiences with disbanding regiments just for one thing like beating a Somalia kid. Several Delta Force personnel were court-martialed for billing the Army and State twice and no disbandment. And families are mailing foods and drinks to their husbands, brothers and friends serving with Canadian units in KFOR and other countries because the DND has no moeny to buy foods.

[recce_o]

Mike,

With all due respect, the story about mailing food is B.S. A few years ago one of the UN missions deployed and didn't receive their rations for a couple of days because of a logistics foul up and they had to borrow some from the French. Hey, these things happen.

One thing I can guarantee is that Canadian military food is outstanding.

[recce_o]

and furthermore...

If we judged war fighting abilities by the actions of politicians, I don't think that Slick Willie is going to earn you guys any points!!!

[Cole]

Ohh Geez....here I go...
Hey.
I am not a lumberjack, or a fur trader...
and I don't live in an igloo,
or eat blubber, or own a dogsled...
and I don't know Jimmy, Sally or Suzy from Canada,
although I'm certain they're really, really nice.
I have a Prime Minister, not a President.
I speak English and French, NOT American.
And I pronounce it leth-tenant,
not luuuutenant.
I can proudly sew my country's flag on my backpack.
I believe in peacekeeping, NOT policing.
DIVERSITY, NOT assimilation,
AND THAT THE BEAVER IS A TRULY PROUD AND NOBLE ANIMAL.
A toque is hat, a chesterfield is a couch.
And it's pronounced "ZED" not "ZEE", ZED!!!
Canada is the second largest landmass!
The first nation of Hockey!
And the best part of North America!
My name is Cole, AND I AM CANADIAN!!!

[BK101484]

Well ... You startd it ....

I am not a cowboy or a Indian
and I dont Live on the Fronteir
and I dont eat Apple Pie or own a horse
and I dont know Johny, Billy, or Uncle Sam
although I'm sure there truly Patriotic
I have a President not a Prime Minister
I Speak American not English or French
I can proudly hang my country Flag on my wall
And The Eagle is the best damn bird to fly the skies
A hat is a hat and a sofa is a couch
U.S.A. is the home of Baseball
And The best place on this lil place I like to call Earth
My name is BRYAN and I AM AMERICAN!



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[jinX]

wow, what a crazy topic. it's always hard comparing forces to one another (see my posts in Marine Wants to be a Seal). sometimes, comparison doesn't make sense because units are so similar.

what i've read of JTF-2 has all been great. this site has quite a bit of info in and of itself.

enfield, are u canadian or british? i know the brits certainly do consider themselves more well-trained than americans...but i don't want to start an SBS vs. SEAL/Force Recon argument among people who aren't really sure. would be interesting to hear from actual operators, though a certain SEAL (who shall remain unnamed to keep him from being flamed) has said that the SBS/SAS are probably the top operators in the field.

i myself am an american (who also happens to be filipino) so i tend towards american units in all arguments. but i've always got an open mind...

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"I am not a stormtrooper, I am a soldier of my country."

"I am not a terrorist, I am a freedom fighter."

[Enfield]

I'm gonna wade into this one...
FNG hit on the nose - the CF considers itslef usperior to the US forces because of how the US specializes so much. And like FNG said, we can't afford to specialize - everybody has to be a jack of all trades. And while combat arms troops up here hate that, I met an Engineer who respected the idea - he was a jack of all trades, who could do mines, bridging, construction, etc, moderatley well and probably need to refer to a text. But the US specialists could do any one of those easily and excellently.
A platoon from my unit went to Florida for a few weeks a couple years ago, and worked with the US NG and Reserves at a MOUT facility there. They ran circles around the US troops there, since they had more general skills. I honestly believe that in the Infantry not be jack of all trades is deadly, but in other fields, specializsation may have it's attributes.
The Canadian rotational schedule is intense - there are corporals and MCpl's going back for their third tour in Bosnia. I also think that Canadians stay in longer - no college benefits here (RMC is different), so troops usually stay past the 3 yr contract. And Canada has a tradition of professionalism - we've never had combat troops drafted, every combat arms soldier, in every war, has been a volunteer.
And the final argument Canadian troops use is that because we're poorer, we have to do more with less. We can't depend on technology, or any high tech gizmos - or even basic things like air support or helicopters a lot of time.
I'm not saying the US military is incompetent or anything like that. There are a lot of very hard units down south. Have to remember that the USMC is about three times the size of the entire CF, including Reserves. US Special Operations Command out numbers our Army too (maybe the whole CF), and I've heard the Special Forces alone have more infantry than we do.
The Airborne was the Army's crowning jewel, and what happened to it is a horrible symptom of what's happening to the CF. But every military has it's problems, especially now.

Interesting thread we've got here...
Cheers!
Enfield

[Cole]

BK, Touche!!!

Enfield, I think troops were drafted during WWI. There was the big controversy in which Quebecois didn't want to join in "Britain's" War and refused to acknowledge the draft.

[pn]

I think you (northerners) protest too much.

-pn

[Cole]

PROTEST!!!
pn, are you specifing Canada??? What were the 60's? A neat little get away from Vietnam?

[Mac679]

here's an idea, let's take all of the Canadian military put it up against an equal number of US personnel and see which country is still standing at the end....
or we can remember Der Teufel's Brigade and knock this stupid bullsh*t off

Mac679

[Daredevil]

You know, this whole thread is starting to remind me of when I went to the Bahamas years ago and the cab driver I had, when he learned that I was from the US, began telling me that even though US Marines are tough, they aren't anything compared to the Bahamian Defense Force.

I just smiled, nodded, and let him talk.

[Daredevil]

Cole,

The neat little get away from Vietnam in the 60's WAS Canada.
heh heh

[pete]

To all,

I am no expert on this i just want to say this. i would have to say that Canadian troops are are trained as well as any other soldier. Canadian troops throughout history have shown that they are hard,dedicated warriors. They have earned there respect. But for people to say that American troops or Canadian troops are better is rediculous. The training of the soldier in a lot of countrys is exceptional. But as Mike pointed out, money does have a big thing to do with it. Americans have much fancier weapondry and gadgets to aid in there battles. Canada doesnt have that, are new budget for the military was something like 1.9 billion dollers, thats the cost of a couple of planes for the yanks. But if you strip the soldiers of all there new toys out fit them equally with just a rifle,knife and some boots, than and only than can we truly find which country has the better trained army. In each military you will always find good things and bad things to argue about. And all the time each country will say they have the best, and your the worst. I cant sit here and say Canadian troops are better than Americans, I dont know, but i do know this, both countrys have hard,dedicated troops that will stick with you through thick and thin, and that my friends is what it all comes down to.

[Cole]

Since this thread is going to degenerate into nation bashing, my last remark is going to be that I will fear the day when an well-trained American attacks me with his Consideration to Others training! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

[Fred]

Likewise, I shiver at the thought of all that rough and ready Canadien infantry split-tail overrunning my fighting position.

[Bruce]

While it was most ammusing reading the little quarrel that is going on between all of you I will sya one thing.

TALK IS CHEAP!!!