Lets talk about the Palestinians and the Israelis

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
Also, does anyone know where the thread, "How can we make peace with these bastards?" has disappeared to?

Gen Int'l SOF Issues Forum

http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27657

[MarcWarren]

At the risk of being shot down again (I didn't have the time to read 10+ pages of hatred in the other thread), I will mention this: Israel is not the only "democracy" in the region. Just as they have a nucleus group to show out the wrongdoings of their government, there are many groups in the arab world to cry out for peace and justice. But two things are aligned against them: The government dims their voice out of fear for their own position of power, and the media that decides to cover more "newsworthy" affairs such as bombings and killings.
I am a dual citizen, and believe me, sometimes when I go back to my other country, I just don't feel as secure as in the US, in the feeling of "perhaps, no matter what, I would and could still have a fair trial" Back home, the king is trying to slowly change this tide, but the opposition is so overwhelming that the population have lost hope and the changes are progressing in a glacially slow motion. Ok, those who know would guess which country I'm talking about (and it ain't the eastern kingdoms)
What I'm trying to say is that, generally speaking, what you see on television, of bombings and killings and protests of hatred against the US and Isreal, is but the work of the few. Many do not feel hatred or do not concern themselves with those feelings.
But....sometimes, in their misjudgment, the US plays into the hand of those terrorists by their miscalculated actions and favoring the wrong leader or faction in the country, in favor of their own interest. Many politicians here do not plan for long-term actions. And what we see in Iraq and A-stan is the result of the actions from the 70's, and some of you know that I'm right.
As it was said in another thread, Islam has nothing to do with this climate of terror. Those responsible are the mischievous clerics and leaders that use this religion and the Koran for their own agenda.

[Gulf Yankee]

QuietPatriot:

What the fuck are you talking about? :confused:

[MarcWarren]

Sorry, GY, I am not so adept at the sport of copy/paste. I was referencing the above post by RipperTow and his kudos for a small element in the israeli government that supposedly is "chastising" its own government for excessive use of force. It sounded as if it's the only nucleus of democracy in the Middle East amidst a sea of barbarian cavemen(or camel jockey in their case, to use the standard pejorative term).
I was also talking about this thread (http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27830) where many unsavory comments were thrown out. I had decided to participate in the conversation, and then found out that it is not so constructive to read about those comments of hatred directed at the whole arab nations. Believe me, I am not one of those whiney guys. I have dealt with my own share of racist comments regarding arabs, even though I am a US citizen, and served honorably in the army and ready to serve again once I finish my B.S. It just goes to show you the lack of "progress" that we have in this country, regarding racial tolerance. If it is not the blacks, it is the hispanics or philipinos, or as of late the arabs.
I apologize for the unexpected rant. Thanks for reading.

[Kid A]

Originally posted by JustANavyMom
hmmm... explain please with references from the Qur-an. I see a quite different picture.

As I've shown time and again, the Jews committed atrocities ordered, suppossedly, by God. There are ten times the verses advocating violence in the OT than there are in the Qu'ran. Similarly Christians have used the bible in the past to advocate violence (Crusades, New World, etc).

A search on those verses you speak of in the Qu'ran will show that they were meant for a specific period of time, when Mohammed/Islam was under attack. They have no relevance for the modern world.

But that won't stop religious fundamentalists from saying otherwise (on both sides, the ones who preach violence and the ones who preach that Islam/Muslims are forced into violence by their scriptures).

Remember there are billions of Muslims the world over. There aren't, however, billions of Muslims advocating violence.

[MarcWarren]

Originally posted by JustANavyMom
hmmm... explain please with references from the Qur-an. I see a quite different picture.

I would love to do that. It would just turn into a very lenghty conversation, with no basis. Because the Quran has direct correlation to the actions of muslims, some people used it wrongly.

To understand the Quran, it has to be read within three contexts:
1. Within its own context, as some verses are self-explanatory. (as dealing with social issues)
2. Within the context of actions or events that happened during the time of the Prophet(as with some verses about some of the battles that the Prophet fought, or to denounce some hypocrits that were in his clan, or to talk about some of the miracles that happened in the Prophet's lifetime)
3. Within the context of the explanations provided by the Prophet or his companions that were close to him ( as with the manner of prayer or fasting, for example) Many scholars, across the latter centuries have substantially added to the explanations or the better understanding of the Quran by linking it to specific events and hadiths (sayings) of the Prophet. Please note that, eventough, all this effort is provided, we cannot fully grasp the complete explanation of the Quran, as it is one of the wonders of God (In the Quran, He said that we are imparted but a small fraction of the wisdom and knowledge)

I am, in no way, a scholar versed in theology. But, I have spent my whole life as a muslim. And believe me, never in my entire life, have I had the "urge" or felt the compunction to "go and kill an infidel" because"Allah said so in the Quran". No one in my entire family(close and extended) or the neighborhood I lived in, felt the need to do any harm to someone in the manner you see displayed on TV.And believe me, there are many foreigners living there.
Again, there are factions out there that have used the Quran as a tool of belief, to conjure some people into those heinous daily acts.

[Roguish Lawyer]

QP, you're Jordanian?

[MarcWarren]

Originally posted by QuietPatriot
Ok, those who know would guess which country I'm talking about (and it ain't the eastern kingdoms)


No, RR.... back to the geography books!! :)

[nikto]

Moroccan?

[Kid A]

Originally posted by nikto
Moroccan?

Interesting fact: Morocco was the first country to recognize US Independence: 1777.

[MarcWarren]

"Au Contraire" ...

Ok, to be able to discuss something, we have to speak the same language. Therefore,with all due respect, I would like to ask you if you have ever read the Quran, or have an edition with the explanation of the verses, to be able to reference to, whenever you hear someone throwing those "condemning" verses out on TV...you know, the ones that supposedly "exhort" us to kill all infidels? I say that, because I have seen too many talkheads on TV claiming to be the final authority on Islam and the Islamic world, only put giant sneakers in their academic mouths. Jerry Falwell was on TV shortly after 9/11, and talking bad about Islam. When one of the other guests asked him if he ever read the Quran, he said "No..but I know that their God preaches violence" :rolleyes: and when combat was over in Baghdad, there was this email going around, talking about the fact that Saddam should have heeded his Islamic scriptures, and mentionning a "verse" in the Quran that was conveniently placed in Chapter 9 Verse 11, talking about the serpent in the desert and the eagle with the might that would cleanse everything, or some garbage like that.
So yes, without basis, it is just anectodal mishmosh.

[Kid A]

Actually it's a guess. I'm sure the percentage is much, much higher.

Start here: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.shtml

And you can count up the instances of violence in the Quran yourself.

surah 73:10 "Be patient with what they say, and part from them courteously."


But counting verses does nothing. There are, in fact, and not opinion, far more instances of violence in the OT than in the Koran. That is not up to debate. But just as Christianity used the sword to convert in past history, Koran is at that point now. Both religions have been hijacked by those with an agenda "God Hates Fags" anyone?) To argue over which is "more" violent based on verses is ludicrous.

Just as those who hijacked Christianity in the past used the verses in the bible to do so, so now people have hijacked Islam. The point is to see that it is a hijack and not condem billions of people on their belief system.

Remember, Islam is the world's fasted growing religion.
Blasting their holy book is likely to make a whole lot of enemies.

[echoes]

Originally posted by Kid A
Remember, Islam is the world's fasted growing religion.
Blasting their holy book is likely to make a whole lot of enemies.

Hi again Kid A. Just little 'ol echoes here with a little tiny question.

I just cannot seem to follow your position?

(Assuming, of course, that you PM'd your credentials as requested by the Admins, and that all is well now for you here?)


:rolleyes: Holly

[Kid A]

What "credentials" are you speaking of? I know of no request by any "Admin" to inspect any of my credentials. Are you trying to instigate an argument? Is it any business of yours? Someone suggested that I should send the Admins my credentials, but since I'm not claiming BTDT status I don't see what the point is. If you want to see my DD214 to prove I served in the military, fine. If you want me to "prove" I work for a Congressman, well I can tell you that isn't going to happen under any circumstances at all and if I have to prove I work for Congress or leave, I'll leave.

But since you're not an Admin and you have no say so in the matter, I don't see why you're trying to bring this up now in a different thread and instigate an argument.


You can't follow my point?

Labelling Muslims as inherently violent people whose holy book (the Qu'ran or Koran) as a book that preaches violence and advocates the mass killing of people is going to result in the entire Muslim world being very pissed off.

And as I said, it's the world's fastest growing religion, which means that there are going to be a whole lot of people in that Muslim world who are pissed off.

[RipperTOW]

QuietPatriot,

I think the cultures that dominate in the Middle-East, and I don't know of a single exception, are deplorable, backwards, highly-mystical, death-worshipping, and primitive. That is not a racist statement.

Racism is a moral evaluation of someone based on the unchosen characteristic of ethnicity. Ethnicity is unchosen. But the moral realm is the realm of the chosen, which is why it is the cultures embraced by most people in that region that is the problem. Culture is chosen, and culture is the problem in the Middle-East.

I don't know where you're from, but I've spent time in the Middle-East myself, know and discuss the region regularly with many people from there, read extensively from the Arab media, and I know there is a basic anti-Western thrust in the culture that provides an agreeable medium in which the more virulent strains of Islam can thrive.

Sure not every man is Osama bin Laden. True, there are some arabs who totally repudiate terrorism and the other backward elements of the arab cultures. But the fact is that the majority of the people in that region, the so-called moderates, are ambivalent on the issue of who is right: Osama or America. Most think there are valid points made by both sides, even if some are quick to point out that they think 9-11 was unjustified. Most think that American cultures is fraught with problems. This may be true. But most of the things that they see as problems are America's strongest virtues (e.g. - American commercialism/materialism).

The other thing is that the OBL's of the world don't need an environment where everyone approves of everything they do. They only need an environment where they are tolerated. Where people are more willing to appease their belligerence than they are to stand up to them and demand they stop. Why doesn't this happen? Because Bin Laden is a more consistent advocate of Islam than the so-called moderates over there. They lose to him because Islamic philosophers, Al-Ghazali, Qutb, Timea et al were more in agreement with OBL's interpretation than the moderates.

And here's where you get to the problem with religion qua religion. Because it is rooted in faith there are no independent facts in reality on which to base your arguments about which is the right interpretation. It is a moot point, because all it ever comes down to is because this is the way I feel it is. How do you argue with that? What facts in reality to you point to in illustration of the fact that Muhammad meant something else? There are no such facts, because that is the nature of faith - it MUST be taken uncritically, outside of a rational evaluation.

On that note, Christianity and Judaism (as they exist in most places today) have "secularized." In the case of Christianity, whose philosophical history I am more familiar with, it came from Aquinas who argued along the lines that reason was a creation of God, and therefore he intended men to use it. This is ultimately a flawed argument, but in the 14th c. it was enough to carve out a place for Aristotelian logic and reason in what was otherwise a primitive and backwards European culture. This "room for reason" has continued to grow, until most Christians in the West today practice a very diluted (in the philosophical sense) brand of religion. By comparison, most of the Islamic countries are far more consistent.

So I do think there are real problems in the cultures of that region, and I do think those problems have their roots in Islam. And that is not a racist statement.

[echoes]

Originally posted by Kid A
What "credentials" are you speaking of? I know of no request by any "Admin" to inspect any of my credentials. Are you trying to instigate an argument? Is it any business of yours? Someone suggested that I should send the Admins my credentials, but since I'm not claiming BTDT status I don't see what the point is. If you want to see my DD214 to prove I served in the military, fine. If you want me to "prove" I work for a Congressman, well I can tell you that isn't going to happen under any circumstances at all and if I have to prove I work for Congress or leave, I'll leave.

But since you're not an Admin and you have no say so in the matter, I don't see why you're trying to bring this up now in a different thread and instigate an argument.

Kid A.

In fact, No, I am just a no-body, a guest here. I do not argue with the Men & Women of this Board. I know better.

But you Sir, openly and without provocation did in fact insult my Jewish friends, Our Great Country, and The President of the United States.

So, I am going to sweep my little self under the rug, so as to not get flamed.

But before I do, I just wanted you to know that I remembered what you said. I read it, and I remember it.


Holly :(

[Kid A]

Ripper- I disagree on your statement re: culture is chosen. For most people in depressed areas of the ME they know nothing other than what they see and hear. They are born into that culture, they don't choose it, much like a pygmy cannibal knows nothing other than eating heads.

Now for some, for the educated, for those with access to libraries and books and such, they do have a choice, but it is also their culture - these people are more likely to work to change it than to reject it.

As you've shown in the past at one point the "culture" of the Arabs was extraordinary in terms of medicine, architecture, infrasturcture, literature, etc. We'd probably have very little to no knowledge of the ancient Greeks and Romans without them, but they were still the same people using the same book to justify their belief system. So the current "culture" can be changed.

To put it another way, do you think the guy born in Appalachia to illiterate parents who work in a coal mine really could understand and embrace the "culture" of the NY Socialite? Hardly.

[Kid A]

Originally posted by echoes
[B]
But you Sir, openly and without provocation did in fact insult my Jewish friends, Our Great Country, and The President of the United States.


Openly and without provocation huh? Try again hon.

And where have I insulted the United States?

The President? yeah, I don't agree with him at all. If you cared for veterans you wouldn't either, but that's another thread entirely.

[MarcWarren]

RipperTow, thank you for your post.
The problems you talk about, concerning Islam, mostly stem from the interpretation of Man concerning religion. You said it yourself: Aquinas started to reason away Christianity. Bible archaelogists try to dissecate the facts of the Bible based on factual interpretations: they try to discover the path of Jesus when he was wandering through the desert for 40 years. They haven't found any archaelogical evidence of the event. Faith is much more transcendant than mere archaelogical artifacts or human interpretation. If they can't believe the story of the 40 years in the desert, then why do they believe in the Immaculate Conception?
It is this pick-and-choose habit that is plaguing many nations. The fundamentalists in the Middle East try to choose verses in the Koran that would substantiate their claims.... claims of what? Why do they need to hate America? You cannot categorize everything in neatly displayed boxes. People have asked this question many times since 9/11: "Why do they hate us?" You cannot just formulate one standard answer. It has to do with the double standards about Israel, the expansionist views of America's foreign policy, the crooked actions of their politicians in regard to self-benefit, and many would bring out more theories.
You cannot secularize Islam in the same manner as the other religions, and you cannot dissecate it like the others and that is also another source of hatred from those extremists.

[echoes]

I just wanted to bring this little thread back, since it is relevant to another thread topic going on.

Hope I do not get flamed, but I did not want to forget it.

Holly:(

[RipperTOW]

Yes, I think people can shrug off the influence of culture, and there are innumerable examples of this to prove it. I'm not saying it's not difficult, but it is certainly possible. I work with a guy who used to be Shiite from Pakistan. He lived there and was indoctrinated in the full culture until he was sent to the US to go to the university. Here, quite on his own, he recognized the backwardness of Pakistani culture and repudiated both his religion and his culture. Today he is a citizen and unapologetic capitalist.

Ayn Rand was born in Russia, and was a very young girl during the Bolshevik revolution. Despite living out her formative years in probably the most repressive and anti-American nation in recent history (maybe Iran and Taliban Afghanistan deserve to be included), she recognized that the American culture was objectively superior, escaped to the West, and went on to become the most profound defender of American values since Jefferson.

The same is true of Andrew Carnegie, who was born into poverty that is not even heard of in Appalachia today. He went on to become the wealthiest man in America.

And, I'm from Alabama......

[echoes]

Originally posted by Kid A
Openly and without provocation huh? Try again hon.

And where have I insulted the United States?

The President? yeah, I don't agree with him at all. If you cared for veterans you wouldn't either, but that's another thread entirely.

http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27830&perpage=20&pagenumber=7

This is the link I believe.

My Love runs deep Sir, and Please do not call me"hon".

My Name is Holly.

:confused:

[RipperTOW]

Another example. Ever notice those "boat people" who are raised in Cuba? How is it, growing up in Marxist Cuba, that they manage to shrug off their culture and seek a different one at risk of life and limb?

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by QuietPatriot
People have asked this question many times since 9/11: "Why do they hate us?" You cannot just formulate one standard answer. It has to do with the double standards about Israel, the expansionist views of America's foreign policy, the crooked actions of their politicians in regard to self-benefit, and many would bring out more theories.

I'll tell you why they hate us, it is easier to demonize the west than it is to face up to their own failings as a culture, that's why. It has nothing do to do with Israel (despite the lip service), it has nothing to do with American expansionism (the least expansionistic superpower in history), and everything to do with the corruption of their own society, their leaders, and their religion.

And in case you're wondering, I have read the Qu'ran...in arabic...while on one of my several postings to islamic countries.

RipperTOW: You keep posting well-thought out, and reasoned opinions like that and you might force me to retire from these boards :D

Semper Fi.

[Kid A]

Originally posted by RipperTOW

And, I'm from Alabama......

And I'm from N. GA.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but that it is done by individuals, not by entire populations. I've never heard of the Pakistani you speak of, the Pakistani who runs the Kabob house near my work will never make the news, neither will my landlord, who is an unabashed Muslim and also a business owner.

But as you said, the Pakistani got the chance to come here, witness it first hand, and make an informed decision. There are many Muslims here who remain Muslims, but decide America is a better place. There are many who come here, then go back, and hopefully take some knowledge with them.

Of course it happens. Hell look at the anarchists and socialists here in the US. They were raised here and reject it.

But for the most part the millions who cannot visit the US, who have no TV other than the state TV, who have no books other than the state books, and who have no education other than what they receive at the Mosque, the very idea that their culture is wrong and ours is right is unfathomable.

As with everything, it takes time. In this regard maybe, just maybe, terrorist actions serve some good. Maybe, just maybe, millions of Muslims will say "You know what? MY Qu'ran doesn't say shit about killing anyone so screw you" and overthrow the murderous dictatorships that keep these people in their death-grips.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by RipperTOW Despite living out her formative years in probably the most repressive and anti-American nation in recent history

I would say that as a result of living out her formative years in the most repressive...




Originally posted by RipperTOW And, I'm from Alabama......

Q. How do you compliment a native Alabaman?

A. Hey, nice tooth.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by echoes and Please do not call me"hon"...My Name is Holly.

Does that go for me too, hon...er, I mean Holly :D

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by Kid A Maybe, just maybe, millions of Muslims will say "You know what? MY Qu'ran doesn't say shit about killing anyone so screw you" and overthrow the murderous dictatorships that keep these people in their death-grips.

Maybe, just maybe, monkeys are going to fly out my ass in the next 37 seconds. :rolleyes:

[echoes]

Originally posted by Kid A:
"In this regard maybe, just maybe, terrorist actions serve some good."


Now, I am totally confused...

Never in my wildest would I have thought that on this, of all places, a statement like that would be uttered!

Did you not know anyone who was killed on 9/11 ???

Well, I did. Many people did. And I for one cannot believe you meant that. :mad:

Holly

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by QuietPatriot
People have asked this question many times since 9/11: "Why do they hate us?" You cannot just formulate one standard answer. It has to do with the double standards about Israel, the expansionist views of America's foreign policy, the crooked actions of their politicians in regard to self-benefit, and many would bring out more theories.

You can formulate one standard answer, and the above are just so many rationalizations over the underlying reason:

Because Islam and Islamic culture are dominated by a philosophy (Islam) that preaches other-worldliness and self-sacrifice, and America, to its credit, is the most strident culture of this-worldliness and self-interest in history. It is a nation founded not on the idea that sacrifice to God is the root of morality, but the "pursuit of Happiness." America, accordingly, is the dynamo of productivity that drives material wealth across the globe. Islamists, correctly, see the incompatibility of selfless sacrifice to God and materialistic, life-enriching, productive pursuits.

Theirs is a culture of death (the "next" life is the one that counts), America's is a culture of life (make yourself happy in this world). That's it. It is that simple. It's the reason that the basic hatred that exists today existed before any of the issues you mention in the above quote.

[RipperTOW]

Good joke GY. Never heard that one before. Lived back in AL for a year after the USMC. There was a guy there that tended a garden on the family farm named Benny Davis. Benny talked like that guy on King of the Hill. You could barely understand him.

One day I asked him how the garden was that year.

"Awwww, hail. Ya keent graw nuthin widdat gawddamned El Camino a-blowin 'round."

I just backed out of the conversation, puzzled. Took be about 10 minutes to figure out that he meant "El Nino."

In Kid's defense (can't believe I'm doing this), I don't think he meant 9-11 was a good thing. I think what he was saying was that as bad as it was, maybe something good can come of it, although I doubt it along the lines he suggested.

[Kid A]

Originally posted by echoes
Originally posted by Kid A:
"In this regard maybe, just maybe, terrorist actions serve some good."


Now, I am totally confused...

Never in my wildest would I have thought that on this, of all places, a statement like that would be uttered!

Did you not know anyone who was killed on 9/11 ???

Well, I did. Many people did. And I for one cannot believe you meant that. :mad:

Holly

You're taking it out of context and trying to put what you believe I intended to mean by it on it, rather than what I meant by it.

I said they may have served "some" good, by that I mean that if even ONE muslim who MAY have some feelings of animosity towards the west due to the way he or she was brought up would see the terrorists bombings, or 9/11 and say "You know what? That is NOT what Islam is to me and I want no part of that culture" then YES, it would serve some good. That doesn't mean it wasn't wrong and horrible.

[echoes]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
Does that go for me too, hon...er, I mean Holly :D

(((wink))) at cha! Where is Sdiver when you need him?

RipperTOW: Sorry to have brought old things up, it is just infuriating to me. You are a brilliant mind Sir, and have a great deal of wisdom! (You too GY!) :D

Holly

[MarcWarren]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee

And in case you're wondering, I have read the Qu'ran...in arabic...while on one of my several postings to islamic countries.

Yes, I had the feeling before that you might be a little more knowledgeable about Islam than the average joe. That is why I am surprised that people like you do not see the third and fourth layer of the problem, they get stuck at the surface, and seems to be convinced of their beliefs "because they have read about it". You seem to lump everyone in the same basket.
So, please indulge me. You read the Quran in Arabic. You lived there. Do you still believe that it preaches the violence that they talk about on tv? Have you read the explanation of those verses? Do you believe that those are open invitation to "Jihad" (sic)?
How many terrorists (aka freedom fighters, aka homicide bomberss, aka suicide bombers...) are there in the world? Do you think that their actions make them better muslims? Do you think that because I am not out there killing any "infidels", that I am a "bad" muslim? What about the 1 billion + muslims out there who do no killing? Are they bad muslims?

Holly: if you were so horrified that KidA insulted Hoepoe and the jews by talking about the proverbial big nose, where were you when some people were insulting arabs? (owing to the fact that most arabs, just like most jews do not commit those terrorist acts, but just want to live in peace)

[echoes]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
Maybe, just maybe, monkeys are going to fly out my ass in the next 37 seconds. :rolleyes:

GY: I want to see Monkey's flying!!! :) Yee-Haw!

Holly ;)

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
Because Islam and Islamic culture are dominated by a philosophy (Islam) that preaches other-worldliness and self-sacrifice

Islamists, correctly, see the incompatibility of selfless sacrifice to God and materialistic, life-enriching, productive pursuits.

Here is where I disagree with you, RipperTow.

In principle, your points are well-taken, however in practice the islamic countries, particularly the Gulf countries which have been financing much of this terror, have themselves turned into self-centered, materialistic, corruptions of their Islamic ideal.

It is hard to see a culture which is so fixated on diamond-encrusted Rolexes and S-class Mercedes sedans reconciling their way f life with the sacrifices imposed on them by their religions. A case in point in this is their handling of Ramadan. Originally this religious observance, where muslims do not eat nor drink between sun-up and sundown was intended to create a sense of empathy for the poor. Instead what it has become is a mockery of its original intent. In the Gulf, the muslims actually gain weight during this monthlong ritual.

The muslims basically invert their day during ramadan. They wake up at 10 or 11 AM, sleepwalk through their daily ritual and then at the stroke of sundown (around 5:20 or so) they engage in a nightlong feeding frenzy not unlike ancient Rome. So they have essentially turned what is intended as a means of solidarity with the less fortunate into a mild inconvenience at worst and an excuse for indulgement.

An Iranian dissident told me two things about Islam that absolutely ring true:

1) "Christianity is a religion for poor people, but Islam is a religion for the rich" in reference to the guarantee of passage to Heavan in return for building a mosque on Earth, regardless of the life you have led.

2) "Where Islam goes, poverty follows", self-explanatory.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by QuietPatriot
Do you still believe that it preaches the violence that they talk about on tv? Have you read the explanation of those verses? Do you believe that those are open invitation to "Jihad" (sic)?


You indulge me. How exactly are you going to explain to OBL that your interpretation is the right one? What facts are you going to point to, so that you can demonstrate to him that his antenna to the great beyond is not tuned in as well as yours is?

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by echoes
GY: I want to see Monkey's flying!!! :) Yee-Haw!

Holly ;)

Well...;) ...you got to crank the handle first...:p

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by QuietPatriot
What about the 1 billion + muslims out there who do no killing? Are they bad muslims?

When something on the order of 23 out of 24 global conflicts involves muslims on one or both sides of the conflict, that tells me that the roots of this militantism run deeper than a few misguided individuals.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
I'll tell you why they hate us, it is easier to demonize the west than it is to face up to their own failings as a culture, that's why. It has nothing do to do with Israel (despite the lip service), it has nothing to do with American expansionism (the least expansionistic superpower in history), and everything to do with the corruption of their own society, their leaders, and their religion.

Semper Fi.

HooYah!

[echoes]

Originally posted by QuietPatriot
Holly: if you were so horrified that KidA insulted Hoepoe and the jews by talking about the proverbial big nose, where were you when some people were insulting arabs?

Quiet Patriot?
In all honesty, I was grocerey shopping, then to the Pharmacy, then back home. My time is divided between my life, and someone elses...
If I missed an opportunity to stand up for injustice, racism, or any other wrong, then I will blame no-one but myself.

Personally, as a guest on these boards, I am trying to learn.
And since I do not claim to hold the wisdom, and years of experience, you will not hear me commenting on things that are way above my head.

Personal attacks on the Jewish, Arabs, or anything else can and will take place, I have no doubt. But the Source of those attacks must be BTDT, because this is Their house, not mine.

I hope this has answered your question? If not, please feel free to let me know.

Holly

[ktek01]

Originally posted by Kid A
Openly and without provocation huh? Try again hon.

And where have I insulted the United States?

The President? yeah, I don't agree with him at all. If you cared for veterans you wouldn't either, but that's another thread entirely.

You dont care about Veterans, you only care about yourself, that is why you define caring by how many dollars the President will give them. Benefits are all you care about, you got out early to go to college, how did that benefit anyone but you. I like this President based on how he handles the AD Soldiers, I dont care what he will give me or take away from me as long as he takes care of the guys in the shit now. He is, his father did, and so did Reagan, that is why I like those Presidents. Whats in it for me? Nothing, other then knowing our Military is supported and trusted by the President and allowed to do what they need to do to get the job done. Clinton didnt do that, neither did LBJ, that is why I dont like them. I dont care what party they belong to, and I dont care if I get a few free dollars out of Uncle Sam. Just take care of the kids fighting today.

[MarcWarren]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
When something on the order of 23 out of 24 global conflicts involves muslims on one or both sides of the conflict, that tells me that the roots of this militantism run deeper than a few misguided individuals.

Ok, now: muslims are responsible for Liberia, Kosovo, Bosnia? They were responsible for Rwanda and Somalia? What about Nicaragua and Honduras? I guess there was a muslim at the head of the tank column in Tienanmen Square?
I'll give you Iraq and A-stan, but are you telling me that anywhere and everywhere, muslims are responsible for the world chaos and destruction? Is that how you justify your words and other people's that muslims are a cancer? and you don't call that racism? Will Ripper finagle me another explanation of racism, and how it would apply specifically to the socio-religious environment of Islam?
Do you think that you and your cohort of enlightened people have a link with the beyond that gives you a better perception than the rest of us?
Do you believe that any contribution by muslims to this country will be discounted on the basis of their religion? Or do they have to subscribe to your particular form of belief first? concerning the proper conduct in this life? Do you think this life is the end-all be-all?

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the financial and moral corruption of many middle easterners. It is deplorable in many ways. However, blanket statements are one of the worse fallacies in any argument.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

WTF happened in Honduras and Nicaragua?

I believe the Muslims are responsible for Somalia, but what do I know?

[MarcWarren]

Originally posted by echoes

In all honesty, I was grocerey shopping, then to the Pharmacy, then back home. My time is divided between my life, and someone elses...
If I missed an opportunity to stand up for injustice, racism, or any other wrong, then I will blame no-one but myself.

Personal attacks on the Jewish, Arabs, or anything else can and will take place, I have no doubt. But the Source of those attacks must be BTDT, because this is Their house, not mine.

I hope this has answered your question? If not, please feel free to let me know.

Holly

I am not saying that you should live on these boards. I just saw that in the thread you were referencing to, with the "big nose" comment.
True, this board might be populated by BTDT's, yet, this is the internet, and as long as I don't make false claims about some personal BTDT status, I think I am not stepping on any toes. Furthermore, I am mainly posting now, because I saw some people that could actually know what they can talk about. You don't see me posting in most other BTDT forums, cuz I ain't got that experience. I read them instead, and learn from them, until I can have the chance to join them. But in the question of arabs.....

[echoes]

Originally posted by QuietPatriot
True, this board might be populated by BTDT's, yet, this is the internet, and as long as I don't make false claims about some personal BTDT status, I think I am not stepping on any toes.

But in the question of arabs.....

Fortunately, this is the House of the BTDT. I am a guest. I will not argue with one, peroid. Trust me...You do not want to piss off a BTDT. It is not a good thing, and it will follow you, because, as I sadi, this is THEIR house. Not mine.

Personally, I think I am allowed to hang around here because I am a 37-26-37 Blonde, but that is another thread! :D

I am Neutral, like Switzerland. I do not hate. Peroid. I find that it takes up to much of my energy.

Question answered? I hope so.

Holly
:confused:

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by QuietPatriot
Ok, now: muslims are responsible for Liberia, Kosovo, Bosnia? They were responsible for Rwanda and Somalia? What about Nicaragua and Honduras? I guess there was a muslim at the head of the tank column in Tienanmen Square?

Kosovo, Bosnia, and Somalia all involve muslims on one or both sides of the conflict. I spent time in Kosovo as well as Albania and Macedonia so don't lecture me on the "innocence" of the muslim combatants there. I did not get to spend any time in Bosnia but I worked with enough people who did to know what actually happened there as well.

Rwanda is not at war at present, neither is Nicaragua, Honduras or China. I am talking 2003. The statistics I cited came from a recent UN report, not my own. I don't have the specific citation but a google search could pull that up in no time, if you care to check.

And, in case you were wondering, China is in fact dealing with islamic militants in its western provinces as is much of North Africa. Al Qaeda elements have been traced to South America and there may already be training camps in the central part of the continent. I don't, however, think they have made it to central America just yet.


Originally posted by QuietPatriot Or do they have to subscribe to your particular form of belief first? concerning the proper conduct in this life?

I would be happy if they would just refrain from flying planes into our buildings, thank you very much :rolleyes:

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by echoes Personally, I think I am allowed to hang around here because I am a 37-26-37 Blonde, but that is another thread! :D

Honestly, Holly, I value you for your mind...:rolleyes: :D

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
In principle, your points are well-taken, however in practice the islamic countries, particularly the Gulf countries which have been financing much of this terror, have themselves turned into self-centered, materialistic, corruptions of their Islamic ideal.

This may be true, but in terms of ideas, which are the ultimate drivers of history, they still, whatever their contradictions, embrace the ethics of the Islamic dogma. In fact, it is this contradiction that is at the root of the financing of terror. When American oil companies were securing concessions to explore for oil there in the early 20th century, the fundamentalists wanted them denied entry or expelled. It was the princes who ultimately let them in. But in doing so, and to keep the fundamentalists at bay, they had to make lucrative deals with the radicals. Those gold watches and Mercedes have a hefty price over there: the guilt and scorn of the dominant ethics in the society. In America, at least as it was founded, this is far less so.

During my time in Saudi I was shocked at the opulence and the waste. I recall often seeing nice looking Mercedes abandoned to decay on the side of the road. "Why are all these cars here," I asked one time. "Mostly flat tires," was the reply. Amazing. But for that wealth the House of Saud and their cronies have paid a price - they have handed over the education and moral guidance of the country to the Wahhabi fundamentalists. That's the difference, according to the dominant American ethics (although this has changed here too since the 19th c.) making yourself happy requires no penance, it is a perfectly justifiable end.

I am reminded of so many cases of these terrorists whose final years are a story of bi-polar extremes. Many of them grew up in the ME, where they learned to be devout Muslims. Many then came to the US or Europe to study, and fell in love with Western material values. Never embracing the ideas at the productive root of the West, they nevertheless surround themselves with the trappings of Western productivity (material wealth). Finally, stricken with guilt over their years of transgression they renounce the West, go and join al-Qaida, and blow themselves up some evening at embassy in Africa somewhere. This is where the expression in philosophy, "premises will out themselves," is validated. The expression means that whatever a person's contradictions, in the end their most deeply held premises will determine their behavior. So it winds up being with most of these people. Swept up in a death-worshipping culture, many do make overtures to more pro-life values. I think this is almost a natural stage in the development of someone who has embraced an ideology that is self-destructive. I would relate it to a heroin addict that always talks about quitting and does so for brief periods.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by echoes
Personally, I think I am allowed to hang around here because I am a 37-26-37 Blonde, but that is another thread! :D


Echoes, please, I'm trying to concentrate here.:cool:

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
Al Qaeda elements have been traced to South America and there may already be training camps in the central part of the continent. I don't, however, think they have made it to central America just yet.


yep - Tri-border, Jordanians (They are Muslims right?) selling weapons to both sides in the Colombia conflict. "Suspicious Arabs" kicked out of Ecuador for visa violations, unconfirmed (by me) reports of 'suspicious Arabs' in Venezuela.

[echoes]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
Echoes, please, I'm trying to concentrate here.:cool:

He he he :D

I can't help it, I just love to Stir...and being a whole five feet, eight inches tall, I feel it is my patriotic duty! :)

Luv It!!!

Holly

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by RipperTOW But for that wealth the House of Saud and their cronies have paid a price - they have handed over the education and moral guidance of the country to the Wahhabi fundamentalists.

They had to, they needed the support of the wahhabi's to gain power.

However, if memory serves, on of Abdul Aziz's first acts was to execute the head of the wahhabi sect after taking comtrol. (I am too sick and tired of thinking about arabs to google search this for verification).

I agree with you about the disgusting and vulgar displays of wealth in Saudi Arabia and other Gulf arab countries. What I find amusing is that this ostentatious display of wealth is so fundamental to their lives that a great many arabs are living in significant debt as they don't have the wealth nor the connections to support a such a lifestyle but would never allow their neighbors to know this so they borrow hugely.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by echoes I just love to Stir...and being a whole five feet, eight inches tall

I am thinking such evil thoughts over every inch of that body ;)

[nikto]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
In principle, your points are well-taken, however in practice the islamic countries, particularly the Gulf countries which have been financing much of this terror, have themselves turned into self-centered, materialistic, corruptions of their Islamic ideal.

If you look at Russia, you'll see much of the same behavior. Almost all of the problems in the former Soviet Union can be blamed on corruption and immoral materialism. And you can trace these problems back to communism - which taught atheism, the *lack* of God. So why is the religion of Islam unique in promoting these problems of the current Middle East?

The biggest culprit in the Middle East's problems, and consequently, geopolitics, is the global oil industry. Having most of their economic wealth derived from simply pumping black gunk out of the earth does nothing to motivate educated and self-aware societies. It's also corrupted the US's relationship with Saudi Arabia - since we're the drug addict and they're the pusher.

Where is the biggest powder keg in South America? Columbia. And what does Columbia produce a lot of? Hmmmm.... drugs. Is there any connection there? Low-tech production, easy empty money, and you get social meltdown.

OBL's ultimate goal is to get control of Saudi Arabian oil - that's what his jihad is all about.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
yep - Tri-border, Jordanians (They are Muslims right?) selling weapons to both sides in the Colombia conflict. "Suspicious Arabs" kicked out of Ecuador for visa violations, unconfirmed (by me) reports of 'suspicious Arabs' in Venezuela.

Thanks, Sneaky, I forgot that you are down there right now.

I have heard stories about that southern Brazil/Uruguay/Paraguay region too.

[echoes]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
I am thinking such evil thoughts over every inch of that body ;)

Nonono...:D You might get a visit from a vewy big Rat! :)

(wink) at cha! ;)

Holly

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by QuietPatriot
I'll give you Iraq and A-stan, but are you telling me that anywhere and everywhere, muslims are responsible for the world chaos and destruction? Is that how you justify your words and other people's that muslims are a cancer? and you don't call that racism? Will Ripper finagle me another explanation of racism, and how it would apply specifically to the socio-religious environment of Islam?
Do you think that you and your cohort of enlightened people have a link with the beyond that gives you a better perception than the rest of us? ..... However, blanket statements are one of the worse fallacies in any argument.

Muslims sure are responsible for more than their share of murder and mayhen, and its a larger share than any other ideological movement I can think of.

A blanket statement is not a logical fallacy. Trust me, I know what they are. Here is a blanket statement:

All men are mortal.

Here is another one.

All matter has mass.

You see, there is no fallacy involved. It is not invalid to generalize, it is only invalid to incorrectly generalize. Now nobody on this forum is saying that all arabs are inherently evil. That's just your little self-pitying smokescreen. It's basically name-calling ("you guys are racist") in leiu of an argument. Now THAT is a logical fallacy called ad hominem, whereby you make an attack against the credibility or character of your opponent as a chickenshit way of avoiding his argument.

I don't need to finagle anything. Muslim is not a race. It is not, by fucking definition, racist to say: "muslims are this...." Islam is an ideology, and ideologies are chosen. Morality is the realm of the chosen. So it is perfectly valid to make moral statements about Islam, the same way it is true to make moral statements about American liberalism, the philosophy of the Western Enlightenment, or Nazism.

Now, stop evading the questions and answer with something other than bullshit racism smears against those whose for whom you have no answer, or live up to your name and quietly lurk your ass out of the conversation.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by nikto If you look at Russia, you'll see much of the same behavior.

The problems in Russia are borne of individual opportunism.

The failures of the Islamic world are structurally cultural.

(or should that read culturally structural :confused: )

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by echoes
Nonono...:D You might get a visit from a vewy big Rat! :)

(wink) at cha! ;)

Holly

Thank god for a fertile imagination and the anonymity of the web :D

[RipperTOW]

As I've said before, Russia was not really atheist, they just replaced the traditional religion with an equally mystical "collective" that everyone was to worship, sacrifice to, and unquestioningly obey. In every meaningful way, communism was one of the most highly mystical ideologies that history has ever seen.

[nikto]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
The problems in Russia are borne of individual opportunism.

The failures of the Islamic world are structurally cultural.

(or should that read culturally structural :confused: )

One subject that I can speak to as an expert is Russia - and the problems there aren't simply borne of individual opportunism. There are roots to every problem - and in Russia, culture, religion and history all played a part. The same goes to the Middle East, but it's not simply Islam that sprang up out of nowhere and caused the current crop of terrorists - but modern politics through their particular cultural lens.

[nikto]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
As I've said before, Russia was not really atheist, they just replaced the traditional religion with an equally mystical "collective" that everyone was to worship, sacrifice to, and unquestioningly obey. In every meaningful way, communism was one of the most highly mystical ideologies that history has ever seen.

No one worshipped communism. It was not like a religion. Even during the "Great Patriotic War" (what the Russians call WW2), the Soviets brought back previously discarded concepts of Russian nationalism to support the effort. Communism simply couldn't cut it on its own.

[RipperTOW]

GY,

True about the Wahhabi's and the Saudi Royals. It is true that there have been some twists on the trail (look at the Shah's battles against the clerics), but the princes realize all over the ME that the fundamentalists must be appeased. Every once in a while, there is tension (Nasser comes to mind as well), but for the most part the lesson (that has been taught often in that region by the assassination of the leader by the fundamentalists) that has been learned and is today being lived is that they have to be appeased.

Wahhabism dominates mosques in Saudi Arabia. OBL himself was educated there, and his own version of Islam is a modified version of Wahhab's. They own the mosques because whether the King likes them or not, he's scared to death of them. Faisal, the Shah, etc., are always there to remind the princes and dictators of the heavy price of encroaching into the ideological territory of the mullahs.

[Kid A]

lesson (that has been taught often in that region by the assassination of the leader by the fundamentalists) that has been learned and is today being lived is that they have to be appeased.


And the US's role in the assassination that brought the Shah to power in Iran? What did that teach them?

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by nikto
No one worshipped communism. It was not like a religion. Even during the "Great Patriotic War" (what the Russians call WW2), the Soviets brought back previously discarded concepts of Russian nationalism to support the effort. Communism simply couldn't cut it on its own.

Communism states that evry individual must sacrifice for the good of "the collective," which, on Marx borrowed from Hegel was a transcendental "super-entity" that had a will of its own that was ineffible to any individual man. Who told everyone what the will of the collective was? The committee. How did one know that there really was such a transcendental entity as "the collective" which had a will of its own and whose purpose was to be obeyed? You couldn't. It was supposed to be through a special "intuition." I.e. - it was supposed to be taken on faith. What was the moral foundation of one's life under communism? The service of the collective. Was reason held to be valid? No.

I could go on and on, but if this isn't like a religion then I think you are failing to grasp the essential meaning of the word. Communism was based explicitly on Marx's transmutation of Hegel's philosophy. It is religious in every essential aspect.

"No one worshipped communism." This is simply not true. The collective was absolutely to be worshipped. It was the moral justification for everyone's existence, for crying out loud. Every value anyone produced had to be devoted to its end. And, by "it" they meant the "super-entity" described above. It's in the writings of their philosophers plain as day.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by Kid A
And the US's role in the assassination that brought the Shah to power in Iran? What did that teach them?

Why don't you start a new thread if you want to start a new topic? If you're really interested in discussing Mossadegh (who was a repulsive little rat) then we'll take it up there.

[Kid A]

repulsive little rat

Granted, he was, however you're talking about how the muslim community behaves, and we've had a direct hand in shaping how they behave for quite some time.

it's not all cut and dry.

[ktek01]

Originally posted by echoes


Personally, I think I am allowed to hang around here because I am a 37-26-37 Blonde, but that is another thread! :D

I am Neutral, like Switzerland. I do not hate. Peroid. I find that it takes up to much of my energy.

Question answered? I hope so.

Holly
:confused:

The passion with which you support our troops is why we all love ya though.;)

[nikto]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
Communism states that evry individual must sacrifice for the good of "the collective," which, on Marx borrowed from Hegel was a transcendental "super-entity" that had a will of its own that was ineffible to any individual man.............

"No one worshipped communism." This is simply not true. The collective was absolutely to be worshipped. It was the moral justification for everyone's existence, for crying out loud. Every value anyone produced had to be devoted to its end. And, by "it" they meant the "super-entity" described above. It's in the writings of their philosophers plain as day.

You know philosophy much better than I do, but I'm talking about real life. What did everyday Russians think about communism day-to-day? Did they worship it? No. Not a one. Maybe you have to have lived there to understand that Russians believed less communist propaganda than we did. Communism was a political/economic system - and I'm sure some Russians believed in its superiority in those aspects - but once they realized they were wrong there as well, communism fell. Why didn't they go through a civil war to end communism? Because no one believed in it like a religion.

[RipperTOW]

What you're saying is true about Russia in the last half of the twentieth century, especially towards the end. But by that time it made very little overtures itself to the communist philosophy. They were just one more bankrupt dictatorship by that time. In fact, it really started with the NEP long before that.

Your first comment was about communism, and communism is a philosophy. Specifically, it was the philosophy of Soviet Russia. But as a philosophy communism was very mystical, and its adherents (who were numerous and believed it at first, and who were disillusioned and cynical later) practiced it like a religion.

Towards the end of the USSR there were few people who believed in the communist philosophy anymore, but that doesn't change what the philosophy was as a philosophy.

And, BTW, communism is a philosophy, complete with its own metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, etc. The politics and the economics are just extension of those other aspects. No one believed it like a religion in the end because nobody believed it anymore at all.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by RipperTOW They own the mosques because whether the King likes them or not, he's scared to death of them. Faisal, the Shah, etc., are always there to remind the princes and dictators of the heavy price of encroaching into the ideological territory of the mullahs.

This is very true and this is the reason why the US has had to enter into an unholy alliance with the al-Sauds. Like them or not, in the event of a power vacuum in the middle east, the only organized opposition to the current crop of corrput leaders is the militant fundamentalists.

We, the West, first needs to deal with the extremist movements like the wahhabis and then we can deal with corrupt leaders like the al-Sauds.

Kid A: your Blame-America-First attitude is getting pretty fucking tired.

[RipperTOW]

GY, PM, over.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by ktek01
The passion with which you support our troops is why we all love ya though.;)

Yeah, that and those 37-inch bad boys :p ;) :D

[Kid A]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee


Kid A: your Blame-America-First attitude is getting pretty fucking tired.

One: I thought you put me on ignore.

Two: It wasn't blame America First at all, that's what you want to believe I believe. I don't. But you can't deny we've been fucking around in the ME - yes for our own benefit - but it has repercussions. To say that ME problems are "Muslim believers" problems and they created them is ludicrous.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
Thanks, Sneaky, I forgot that you are down there right now.

I have heard stories about that southern Brazil/Uruguay/Paraguay region too.

That's the tri-border I mentioned.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
That's the tri-border I mentioned.

My bad. Thanks.

Unless it involves long-legged Colombian and Venezualan girls, I tend to not pay too much attention to South America.

[nikto]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
What you're saying is true about Russia in the last half of the twentieth century, especially towards the end. But by that time it made very little overtures itself to the communist philosophy. They were just one more bankrupt dictatorship by that time. In fact, all it really started with the NEP long before that...........

Okay, if I was unclear because of my use in terminology, fine, but my basic point is that Islam isn't unique among belief systems/philosophies/whatever in that it alone is the root cause of the Middle East's problems. You can look at Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, apartheid-era South Africa, etc, etc and find "religious" reasons for murder and mayhem. But the real root causes are deeper passions that run across all of humanity - greed, jealousy, shame et al. - caused by political and economic factors.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by Kid A I thought you put me on ignore.

I did. You are. Goodbye.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

LOL - you sound like that woman on weakest link.

Nikita - how are you? Long time no see.

You know what I like about this? People say soldiers are mindless robots that only follow orders and don't have opinions. The level of this discussion is impressive, with well thought out posts all around for the most part. It would scare some people to know that soldiers are thinking.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by nikto
But the real root causes are deeper passions that run across all of humanity - greed, jealousy, shame et al. - caused by political and economic factors.

With a statement like that you should be writing University social studies textbooks.

Do you want to explain that? I can't think of a more ambiguous non-answer than just saying it is the result of some unnamed "political and economic factors."

"Greed, jealousy, and shame." What are you saying? That it is in the nature of man to be jealous? Are you sure? I don't feel jealous. Niether do I feel shameful. What's wrong with me? I must be metaphysically deformed, a human without 2 fundamental human qualities.

But greed, well, if by greed you mean interested in producing, accumulating and protecting material wealth in service of my own happiness then I'll agree to being greedy. But I don't see how this hurts anyone. It certainly doesn't make me want to blow myself up.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
You know what I like about this? People say soldiers are mindless robots that only follow orders and don't have opinions. The level of this discussion is impressive, with well thought out posts all around for the most part. It would scare some people to know that soldiers are thinking.

LOL, have you heard what they say about Marines!!!!

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by RipperTOW Niether do I feel shameful.

You've obviously never been to Bangkok :D

[Sneaky SF Dude]

I'm sorry Rippertow, what? I was just reading Holly's post about 37-something-something. Mmmm, I wonder if I could take Rat...I know he's big and tough, but maybe if I sneaked up on him with my Montgomery Ward crowbar...

BTW, I know you guys don't like it, but I include Marines in my post about soldiers thinking.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude The level of this discussion is impressive, with well thought out posts all around for the most part. It would scare some people to know that soldiers are thinking.

What's really scary is that the most well-spoken individual here is a Marine :rolleyes:

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
You've obviously never been to Bangkok :D

Absolutely NOT. And I've definitely never seen a banana show. And at no time in my life have I ever held a balloon over my head and had it balloon popped out of my hand by a girl blowing darts from her cooch. I don't even have any knowledge of events such as these. None, whatsoever.

And did I mention I have absolutely never seen the donkey show in Tijuana? Not to mention Amsterdam, which I've never even heard of.

[echoes]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
I'm sorry Rippertow, what? I was just reading Holly's post about 37-something-something. Mmmm, I wonder if I could take Rat...I know he's big and tough, but maybe if I sneaked up on him with my Montgomery Ward crowbar...

BTW, I know you guys don't like it, but I include Marines in my post about soldiers thinking.

He He He :D Thanks for the laughter you guys!

Sometimes, you just gotta laugh at yourself!

Holly >>> Big SMILE Here :)

[ktek01]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
I'll tell you why they hate us, it is easier to demonize the west than it is to face up to their own failings as a culture, that's why. It has nothing do to do with Israel (despite the lip service), it has nothing to do with American expansionism (the least expansionistic superpower in history), and everything to do with the corruption of their own society, their leaders, and their religion.


Just read the whole thread again, and this pretty much sums up the whole problem. Nothing new either, Kings and Dictators have always used diversion as a method to keep the peasents focused on anything but them and what they are doing to their country.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by echoes He He He :D Thanks for the laughter you guys!

Thanks for the mental images, Holly :D :D

[Hoepoe]

Hello all

Quiet Patriot, i was wrong about you it seems....

Holly, how are you ?

Everyone else (almost) how are you all?

PLease follow the link below,, there is a very nicely maintained db or terror groups and acts of terror. Please objectively veiw this and see how many are from what nation/religion.

Thanks

Hoepoe

http://www.ict.org.il/

ps. don't even try the "it's an Israeli site, thus it's one sided' BS, facts are facts...

[Hoepoe]

PLease also the the Israeli Ministary of Foreign Affairs on terrorism.

Once again, these are facts, not quotes distorted...

The reason i would like to post the link is that all the smaller attacks taht kill a few Jews never make the intl news, all the attack are listed on the two sites..

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0i0f0

Hoepoe

[nikto]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
Do you want to explain that? I can't think of a more ambiguous non-answer than just saying it is the result of some unnamed "political and economic factors."

"Greed, jealousy, and shame." What are you saying? That it is in the nature of man to be jealous? Are you sure? I don't feel jealous. Niether do I feel shameful. What's wrong with me? I must be metaphysically deformed, a human without 2 fundamental human qualities.

Sorry, away from my computer since yesterday. Sneaky- just getting ready to go, can't wait till the 24th of this month.......

Ripper- The political and economic factors include some that I named earlier - the oil industry (empty, meaningless wealth) and the shame at the West overtaking the Middle East in military and economic power. If you're squared away, and aren't jealous or shameful, then great - I try to be, but always have a lot of work to do. But, yes, in my little time outside of the US, I've run across very deep veins of resentment and jealousy that I think very much influence people's actions. There are still some deep emotions in the US South about the Civil Way, which is about as ancient history as we can get in this country!

These passions, wrapped up in culture and religion and history, and fed by geopolitical and economic situations, are what lead to terrorism. But I think the root cause isn't the cultural factors - they're simply the window dressing - but the root causes are more mundane. Is Japanese culture by itself guilty of the kamikaze pilots in WW2? The Japanese seem to be extremely peaceful today. Did their culture change? Yes, I would say somewhat. But the huge, drastic change was in their political system and stable economy. Without a dictatorship and urgent economic needs driving their passions, their culture can explore all of its positive aspects.

I think the same goes for Islam and the Middle East - people are people are people, and if the political and economic situation there is made better, then jihad will lose its fuel, and Islam will hopefully secularize like the other religions. If I'm not mistaken, it already has to a great degree in Turkey. Why can't that be a model to the Middle East?

[Hoepoe]

Nikto, you make a very good point.

I like to think that once the Palestinians financial and socioeconomic situation is improved, they would rather work, educate etc than kill.But i need to see it to believe it. The root of the issue is the leadership, namely arafta the pig and his comrades.

Once they stop the terror and are allowed a State by Israel, indeed this might happen. I hope it will. But before it can the leaders have to actively combat terror as well as educate the children that we (Jews) do not have to be the enemy.

I also feel that there will always be the splinet rgroup that kills and maims, there always has been.

Sincerely

Hoepoe

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
This is where the expression in philosophy, "premises will out themselves," is validated. The expression means that whatever a person's contradictions, in the end their most deeply held premises will determine their behavior.

Is that philosophy or psychology?

If this is true does it mean that because Mohammed died as a sovereign and conquerer1 even if Muslims make what at the time seem to be positive steps towards embracing and reconciling with the west, that they will inevitability return to an adversarial disposition?

If that is the case, there is no forseeable peace with Islam as a culture without a serious reinterpretation of the Quran. That is much more comprehensive reform that the adoption of the tenet of church and state separation, which many currently advocate.


----------------------------------
1Lewis, Bernard Crisis of Islam

[nikto]

I forgot to mention that I absolutely agree with those that posted earlier that the number one culprit for the Middle East *not* liberalizing is its current crop of leaders. I just read about the latest power struggle between Mahmoud Abbas and Yassir Arafat...... If only Abbas could win out, he seems to be on the surface fair and responsible, exactly what Arafat never has been.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by nikto if the political and economic situation there is made better, then jihad will lose its fuel, and Islam will hopefully secularize like the other religions.

Horseshit. This attempt to link terrorism with economics is nothing but pure, unadulterated bullshit. Al Qaeda is composed of thousands of well educated, middle class arabs. Poverty has NOTHING to do with their adoption of radical militantism. Jesus H. Christ, how much is bin Ladin worth?


Originally posted by nikto If I'm not mistaken, it already has to a great degree in Turkey. Why can't that be a model to the Middle East?

Sure, after Ataturk slaughtered thousands of hard line muslim clerics and only after the military brutally enforces secularism. Personally, I am all for this but the Turkish model would never work in the Gulf countries.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by Hoepoe I like to think that once the Palestinians financial and socioeconomic situation is improved, they would rather work, educate etc than kill.

The most recent suicide bomber was a middle class teacher with two young children. Hardly the profile you suggest.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
Muslims sure are responsible for more than their share of murder and mayhen, and its a larger share than any other ideological movement I can think of.

Christianity is far and away the big winner in that category. Between the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc... we've done much worse, but Islamdom is catching up.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by nikto If only Abbas could win out, he seems to be on the surface fair and responsible, exactly what Arafat never has been.

Or be castigated as a puppet of the west :rolleyes:

[nikto]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
Horseshit. This attempt to link terrorism with economics is nothing but pure, unadulterated bullshit. Al Qaeda is composed of thousands of well educated, middle class arabs. Poverty has NOTHING to do with their adoption of radical militantism. Jesus H. Christ, how much is bin Ladin worth?

Did the communist revolution have anything to do with economics? Terrorism is simply violence with a different name - just like the horrible violence of the Russian revolution. And Lenin and Trotsky were middle-class bourgeoisie intellectuals. Just like Mohammad Atta and Ayman al-Zawahiri et al. are educated, middle class Arabs - just like you said.

Are you saying that bin Laden doesn't care one whit for the oil wealth of Saudi Arabia? Read his own words - that is all that he is after..... He didn't even start mentioning Palestine until the late 1990's - before that, it was only about Saudi Arabia. Economics doesn't mean that every terrorist has to be poor - it means that economic power plays a large part in the reasoning behind terrorism.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by Jimbo
Christianity is far and away the big winner in that category. Between the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc... we've done much worse, but Islamdom is catching up.

Sorry Jimbo but that line of reasoning is ridiculous.

I cannot accept the justification of medieval behavior in a modern day world on wrongs committed centuries ago. That is the same justification serbs used for atrocities committed on mulsims in Bosnia, retribution for acts committed hundreds of years, if not millenniums ago. Besides that, muslims were hardly a peace-loving people in that time too. The Crusades were hardly a unilateral act of hostility, read the book "Jihad" to get a taste of the bloody history of Islam.

If Christianity can develop into a 21st century peaceful religious practice, then surely there is no excuse for Islam not to do the same. Time doesn't stand still, you know, even in the middle east.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
The most recent suicide bomber was a middle class teacher with two young children. Hardly the profile you suggest.

In support of Gulf Yankee's point, out of whatever perverse need for power bin Laden embodies the anti-Arab in that he forsake much of his wealth and power (and consequently, comfort) to pursue a pure Wahabist life. That now serves as model for recruitment.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by nikto
Did the communist revolution have anything to do with economics? Terrorism is simply violence with a different name - just like the horrible violence of the Russian revolution. And Lenin and Trotsky were middle-class bourgeoisie intellectuals. Just like Mohammad Atta and Ayman al-Zawahiri et al. are educated, middle class Arabs - just like you said.

Are you saying that bin Laden doesn't care one whit for the oil wealth of Saudi Arabia? Read his own words - that is all that he is after..... He didn't even start mentioning Palestine until the late 1990's - before that, it was only about Saudi Arabia. Economics doesn't mean that every terrorist has to be poor - it means that economic power plays a large part in the reasoning behind terrorism.

Will you put together a consistent point, please?

Your first point was that the root causes of individuals joining terrorist organizations was due to economic desparation and that improving the economic condition of the masses in the middle east would undercut the ability of terrorist organizations to recruit.

I am not arguing that bin Ladin is not after Saudi oil or control of the Arabian peninsula. That is exactly his aim.

So what the fuck is your point?:confused:

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
Sorry Jimbo but that line of reasoning is ridiculous.

I cannot accept the justification of medieval behavior in a modern day world on wrongs committed centuries ago. That is the same justification serbs used for atrocities committed on mulsims in Bosnia, retribution for acts committed hundreds of years, if not millenniums ago. Besides that, muslims were hardly a peace-loving people in that time too. The Crusades were hardly a unilateral act of hostility, read the book "Jihad" to get a taste of the bloody history of Islam.

If Christianity can develop into a 21st century peaceful religious practice, then surely there is no excuse for Islam not to do the same. Time doesn't stand still, you know, even in the middle east.

I am not trying to justify anything. I absolutely agree with your position. Islam needs to modernize. However, if we are going to ask Islam to take a long hard look at itself, we should be 'man' enough to do it as well and the fact is 'Christianity' and its subsequent growing pains has been very disruptive force throughout history.

meh...allow me to expand a bit on the above:
Comparisons of the evolution of various religions does little but further divide groups. Islam has been wholly insular for almost two thousand years now. If you want to try and say that's wrong, that's your business, but it does little to resolve the situation.

[nikto]

Originally posted by nikto
The political and economic factors include some that I named earlier - the oil industry (empty, meaningless wealth) and the shame at the West overtaking the Middle East in military and economic power....... These passions, wrapped up in culture and religion and history, and fed by geopolitical and economic situations, are what lead to terrorism.

Okay now I'm quoting myself - but this is what I wrote, and I stand by it. Sometimes I can't express myself as well as I'd like, but it isn't just economic desperation - that's some of it - but where economic wealth is located. Just look at one of the main targets of 9/11 - the World Trade Center. Why didn't the terrorists attack the Statue of Liberty, the symbol of American freedom? They attacked the symbol of American economic power instead.

[Hoepoe]

Shit you guys post quickly, my last reply never made it...never mind.

Bottom line, they hate us.

I know you guys love mulit-media..take a few minutes for this:
http://server12.castup.net/mfa/presentations/Children%20and%20Terror.htm

http://server12.castup.net/mfa/presentations/Made%20in%20Jenin.htm
http://server12.castup.net/mfa/presentations/The%20Jenin%20Combat%20Zone.htm
http://server12.castup.net/mfa/presentations/jenin%20false%20propaganda.htm
http://server12.castup.net/mfa/presentations/The%20Double%20Game.htm
http://server12.castup.net/mfa/presentations/The%20Bag.htm


mmm....fuck 'em!

[Hoepoe]

You guys have gott asee these...

http://server12.castup.net/mfa/incitement.htm
http://server12.castup.net/mfa/terror.htm

Ok, ok, i'll stop bombarding with these, but do take the time to view them, please

Hoepoe

[nikto]

Shit, you hear about those, but to see a performance with a full orchestra and audience all glorifying a suicide bomber.......... Speechless.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by Jimbo However, if we are going to ask Islam to take a long hard look at itself, we should be 'man' enough to do it as well and the fact is 'Christianity' and its subsequent growing pains has been very disruptive force throughout history.

That is ancient fucking history.

The fact that we have progressed as a culture and society shows we have already taken a long hard look at these issues and moved beyond them.

The west is living in the 21st century. There is no excuse for the islamic world not to do the same.

[Kid A]

Originally posted by JustANavyMom
<<But counting verses does nothing. >>

Then why bring it up? You brought up the comparision first and even gave the comparision a numeric % of violent verses.

Seems like you want it both ways. Say your peace and not have to back it up just because now you say it doesn't really matter? Come on... That's not a discussion that's an outright hijack.

Actually I am so TIRED of people using three or four verses in the Qu'ran that advocate violence (at a certain time) and completely disregarding the dozens and dozens of verses in the Holy Bible that advocate violence (at a certain time). It's hypocricy at it's worse.

No one expects the verses that tell of killing homosexuals in the Bible to have relevance today, therefore no one should expect the scant few verses that tell of driving out infidels in the Qu'ran to have relevance today.

However, there are people here who believe killing homosexuals is blessed by god, and there are people here who believe killing infidels is blessed by god.

By "here" I mean, of course, this blue ball we stand on.

A little perspective is all I ask.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
The fact that we have progressed as a culture and society shows we have already taken a long hard look at these issues and moved beyond them.

Acknowledging Christianity's past does not necessitate tolerating Islam's current level of violence. 'Taking a long hard look' was a poor choice of words. We as a society have obviously done so, as you point out. However, it is a part of history glossed over by us and fixated on by them.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Kid A
Actually I am so TIRED of people using three or four verses in the Qu'ran that advocate violence (at a certain time)

So am I. They're called Wahabists.

However, there are people here who believe killing homosexuals is blessed by god, and there are people here who believe killing infidels is blessed by god.

Killing infidels is a much more popular activity right now. You can travel to the 'front' if you want to wage jihad. That is how popular and well established it is presently. The same is not true for your first example.

A little perspective is all I ask.
So do I. You have none. Shut up.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by nikto
Ripper- The political and economic factors include some that I named earlier - the oil industry (empty, meaningless wealth) and the shame at the West overtaking the Middle East in military and economic power.

You've got too much Marx on the brain nikto, and I'm not even sure you know it. I sure feel for you going off to defend America with such guilt pangs about the role of the productive in the world. It takes a lot of nerve and an enormous evasion to speak of the oil industry as empty, meaningless wealth. How stridently ungrateful can you be!? Do you realize that every time you flip on a light switch, the light comes on because of the oil industry? The oil industry has done as much to improve the quality of man's life on earth as any other group in history. The irony is really rich because we're speaking here about the oil industry in contrast to the Middle-East (the group of nations who have probably single-handedly destroyed more wealth than any other group in the past century).

Originally nikto
These passions, wrapped up in culture and religion and history, and fed by geopolitical and economic situations, are what lead to terrorism. But I think the root cause isn't the cultural factors - they're simply the window dressing - but the root causes are more mundane. Is Japanese culture by itself guilty of the kamikaze pilots in WW2? The Japanese seem to be extremely peaceful today. Did their culture change? Yes, I would say somewhat. But the huge, drastic change was in their political system and stable economy. Without a dictatorship and urgent economic needs driving their passions, their culture can explore all of its positive aspects.

One wonders how the point will ever be made that poverty is not the cause of Islamic terrorism, when even the terrorists themselves say that it is not. They say what motivates them. Why should we think nikto knows better what motivates bin Laden than bin Laden himself?

nikto, you need to have original thought. What you're reciting here on this board is just the standard litany of unsupported, vague and sneering leftist rants. "It's a complex mixture of geopolitical....blah, blah, blah....." I mean, are you really under the impression that you are stringing together a group of words that have even a shred of meaning? I guess it goes something like this (and this is only a guess, because I honestly don't have a clue what you're trying to say):

[paraphrasing] "Because of their shame at being economically overtaken by the West, and the economic and political havoc wrought on this region by the oil industry, some Islamic arabs were driven to blow up Americans for reasons that are wrapped in their culture, religion and history."

They're wrapped up in culture, religion and history, eh? Kind of like a big, complex, burrito. [sighs] This is just a bunch of pretentious garbage a la Noam Chomsky. You're not really saying anything here, just making sneering little comments that are too vague to pin down, and thus too vague to defend against. You don't say what aspects of the history. You don't say what cultural factors. No shit those factors are involved. Is there any political discussion that doesn't implicitly involve culture and history? The difference is, even Kid A will point to what factors he's talking about. It's made worse by the fact that your additionally an apologist for terrorists. It's not enough for you to tell us that the sky is blue, you have to add that it was supposed to be yellow and that its the American's fault that its not. Good job.

nikto
I think the same goes for Islam and the Middle East - people are people are people, and if the political and economic situation there is made better, then jihad will lose its fuel, and Islam will hopefully secularize like the other religions. If I'm not mistaken, it already has to a great degree in Turkey. Why can't that be a model to the Middle East?

"People are people are people," careful nikto, I'm pretty sure Tears for Fears still has a copyright. You are just, again, taking as a self-evident fact that all problems are caused by poverty. This is not true, as GY has pointed out. NEWS FLASH: JIHAD ISN'T BEING WAGED TO IMPROVE THE ECONOMIC STATUS OF THE MIDDLE-EAST, IT IS BEING WAGED BECAUSE MILITANT ISLAMISTS SEE THE GREAT CONFLICT OF THE 21ST CENTURY AS THE WAR BETWEEN ISLAM AND THE WEST!!!!!!!! They don't want blenders and TVs, they want mud-huts and burkhas. Get it? And they don't even want to live in a world with blenders and TVs, because those things are a temptation to the youth they demand follow their brand of 7th c. mysticism. Get it?

In a total aside, yes Japanese culture was completely responsible for the Kamikaze. Do some reading on it yourself and then come back and tell me. Kamikaze: Japan's Suicide Gods by Albert Axell and Hideaki Kase, is a good place to start. What do you even know about the Kamikaze except that they blew themselvs up? The Kamikaze were totally ideologically driven. Yes, their culture did change.

Here's one last lesson for you. Culture, politics, history, and ideology (religion, etc) are not unconnected. An ideology is expressed in a culture, and the ideology will determine the politics. These things, over time, produce history. So it is meaningless to say, "it wasn't their culture that changed, it was their politics." Politics is part of culture, and it won't change unless there are ideological changes. That happened in Japan after WWII (I've got more recommended reading for you if you're actually interested in learning about it), and needs to happen in the ME today.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by Jimbo
Christianity is far and away the big winner in that category. Between the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc... we've done much worse, but Islamdom is catching up.

I don't know about that. Islamic history in full of conquests as well. I'm really only talking about this in the context of the past century or so.

And, re your question earlier about psychology or philosophy, I did mean philosophy. I've studied some philosophy, and avoided psychology like the plague. The statement "Premises will out," really refers to polemics, where a person forced to defend his argument will ultimately have to resolve his contradictions in favor of his underlying premise. I think the application to people's lives is apt, however.

[myclearcreek]

Originally posted by Hoepoe
Ok, ok, i'll stop bombarding with these, but do take the time to view them, please

Hoepoe

The Kindergarten Graduation was particularly disturbing. All of them are, but wow. :(


Rhonda

[myclearcreek]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
Horseshit.

GY, are we related? ;)

Seriously, thank you and RipperTOW and Hoepoe for shedding more light on this murky argument.

Rhonda

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
I don't know about that. Islamic history in full of conquests as well. I'm really only talking about this in the context of the past century or so.

Most westerners, including myself are very poorly informed when it comes to the history of the Middle East. Many Middle Easterners are completely ignorant of both the history and the current affairs of the United States. Further, most history and news in the Middle East is complete propaganda. Islam as a culture, and certain persuasions in particular rely on historical allusions, no matter how inaccurate, to convey their meanings. The result is an entire culture whose idea of the world is so completely different than ours that in addition to speaking different languages, it often appears as if we are talking about a whole different planet. On that 'planet', as I understand it, most Muslims are far more cognizant of the West's 'history' (or their version of it) than we are of both their history and their version of our history.

I'll admit that much of my perception is viewed through the lens of written works about the region. For example, I was completely ignorant about the history of Islam displacing Jews and Christians living in Saudi Arabia. I am only now begining to expand my basic knowledge of the area, but much of what I have learned does not jive with what I see getting bandied about.

And, re your question earlier about psychology or philosophy, I did mean philosophy. I've studied some philosophy, and avoided psychology like the plague. The statement "Premises will out," really refers to polemics, where a person forced to defend his argument will ultimately have to resolve his contradictions in favor of his underlying premise. I think the application to people's lives is apt, however. I have avoided both subjects as much as possible, but lately have found myself immersed in the study of psychology. I asked because I had never heard that phrase before, but it does apply to several principals I've come across recently.

[nikto]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
You've got too much Marx on the brain nikto, and I'm not even sure you know it. I sure feel for you going off to defend America with such guilt pangs about the role of the productive in the world. It takes a lot of nerve and an enormous evasion to speak of the oil industry as empty, meaningless wealth. How stridently ungrateful can you be!? Do you realize that every time you flip on a light switch, the light comes on because of the oil industry? The oil industry has done as much to improve the quality of man's life on earth as any other group in history. The irony is really rich because we're speaking here about the oil industry in contrast to the Middle-East (the group of nations who have probably single-handedly destroyed more wealth than any other group in the past century).

Man, you so don't understand where I'm coming from, I don't know where to start. We're going around in circles, here, but let me make something clear: The oil wealth for the oil sheikhs in the Middle East is empty and meaningless. Did any of those oil millionaires have to work hard to become wealthy? Did they have to educate themselves? Yes, there are very smart technicians and engineers who do the hard work drilling for oil - and most of them are Westerners earning a working wage. The guys at top are just corrupt millionaires who are only rich because they are the rulers of certain areas that are lucky enough to have shitloads of dinosaurs die there millions of years ago (that's a joke - I don't know exactly how oil is created).

Originally by RipperTOW
nikto, you need to have original thought. What you're reciting here on this board is just the standard litany of unsupported, vague and sneering leftist rants. "It's a complex mixture of geopolitical....blah, blah, blah....." I mean, are you really under the impression that you are stringing together a group of words that have even a shred of meaning?

They're wrapped up in culture, religion and history, eh? Kind of like a big, complex, burrito. [sighs] This is just a bunch of pretentious garbage a la Noam Chomsky. You're not really saying anything here, just making sneering little comments that are too vague to pin down, and thus too vague to defend against. You don't say what aspects of the history. You don't say what cultural factors.........

If you can't understand what I mean, either I'm not expressing myself clear enough (which is entirely possible) or you just don't understand. Whatever. Yeah, I'm a leftist a la Noam Chomsky. Think whatever you like. I've given a number of examples, but if you cannot understand them, I'm not going to repeat myself.

RipperTOW
It's made worse by the fact that your additionally an apologist for terrorists. It's not enough for you to tell us that the sky is blue, you have to add that it was supposed to be yellow and that its the American's fault that its not. Good job.

Are you talking to me? When did I ever apologize for terrorists? And when did I *ever* blame America for anything? Damn, when you can't respond logically, you go all out blaming me for something I never said!

RipperTOW
In a total aside, yes Japanese culture was completely responsible for the Kamikaze. Do some reading on it yourself and then come back and tell me. Kamikaze: Japan's Suicide Gods by Albert Axell and Hideaki Kase, is a good place to start. What do you even know about the Kamikaze except that they blew themselvs up? The Kamikaze were totally ideologically driven. Yes, their culture did change.

I didn't give any historical examples? Looks like you're answering one of mine right there. I am interested in learning more about Japanese history, and I'll try to check out that book.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by myclearcreek GY, are we related? ;)

Doubtful, you are far better looking than I am ;) :D

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by nikto let me make something clear: The oil wealth for the oil sheikhs in the Middle East is empty and meaningless....The guys at top are just corrupt millionaires who are only rich because they are the rulers of certain areas that are lucky enough to have shitloads of dinosaurs die there millions of years ago

There's a news flash :rolleyes:

And the point of this stunningly insightful observation is...? :confused:

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by RipperTOW because I honestly don't have a clue what you're trying to say

I am glad to see I am not the only one :confused:

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by nikto
Man, you so don't understand where I'm coming from, I don't know where to start. We're going around in circles, here, but let me make something clear: The oil wealth for the oil sheikhs in the Middle East is empty and meaningless. Did any of those oil millionaires have to work hard to become wealthy? Did they have to educate themselves? Yes, there are very smart technicians and engineers who do the hard work drilling for oil - and most of them are Westerners earning a working wage. The guys at top are just corrupt millionaires who are only rich because they are the rulers of certain areas that are lucky enough to have shitloads of dinosaurs die there millions of years ago (that's a joke - I don't know exactly how oil is created).

Point taken.

nikto
Are you talking to me? When did I ever apologize for terrorists? And when did I *ever* blame America for anything? Damn, when you can't respond logically, you go all out blaming me for something I never said!

Saying poverty is the cause of terrorism is an apology for terrorism. "It's not that they're bad people, they're just desperate." This is the implication of poverty as the cause - it is not treated so much as a cause as it is a justification. Of course nobody, at least outside of the ivory tower, would come out and overtly attempt to justify the terrorists. But, it's just one stepped removed to say that poverty was the cause. Especially when you consider which country is blamed by the rest of the world for causing so much poverty (guess who). If you meant something else, then you should be aware that you are in trace of a very common argument used by those who do justify terrorism (N Chomsky, et al).

This is the Jean Valjean argument - how can you blame a starving man for stealing crust of bread? How can we fully blame the terrorists, if the implication is that they were hopelessly driven to do what they did by some extinuating factor? If poverty's the cause, then what's the solution? Bringing the terrorists to justice? That hardly makes sense. On what grounds? No, whenever poverty is offered as the cause, more aid and support for "the little guy" in that region is prescribed as the solution. If in reality, poverty was the cause, then I myself would be busy mailing bologna sandwiches to Islamabad (do those contain pork?). In reality, it is a chosen ideology that is the cause. That's why justice makes sense.

I wouldn't believe it myself, but I could see how others may be duped by this argument if the terrorists actually said they were frustrated by poverty. But the incredible thing is, they say just the opposite. By any standard, poverty is exactly what they want - for themselves and for you and me. But still people say its poverty. This is why I say its apologetics. You're attributing to their behavior an extinuating factor (and who doesn't pity the poor, after all) that they themselves deny. If that's not apologetics, I don't know what is.

[Kid A]

Originally posted by JustANavyMom
Now tell me where I can find those billions of peaceful Muslims angry that their religion is being hijacked as rationalization for murder???????

You want perspective? Bud, you want to be an apologist for the terrorists??? Be my guest. Just don't cloud it in some vague "why don't we understand them?" They are killers of innocents, no understanding necessary.

And the billions of peaceful Christians who think killing abortion doctors is wrong? I know many individuals, but where is a clear national condemnation from a Christian leader?

Apologist for the terrorists? Get real. I've never been any such thing. When have I said "why don't we understand them" or even implied it?

I said that terrorists have hijacked the message of the Qu'ran, just as terrorists have hijacked the message of the Bible. All I've advocated is that if you're going to show the terrorists who hijack the Qu'ran, you show the terrorists who hijack the Bible.

Because the way you present it the Qu'ran is inherently evil and the Bible is inherently good.

Which couldn't be further from the truth. They're both books meant to persuade people that their version of God is "right" when no one, anywhere, has any idea about what God is or isn't.

Except maybe dead people, and they ain't talking.

[Kid A]

Originally posted by JustANavyMom
Ahem...

Where did I say that? I don't even believe it so I KNOW I never said it.



Did I say you said it? No, I said the way you "present" it, and when you "present" the fact that the Qu'ran advocates killing, and don't "present" the fact that the Bible does as well, then you're "presenting" a faulty logic and argument.


In this country we imprison folks for killing abortion doctors. In the ME they celebrate terrorists ... see a slight difference??


You're right, none of the ME countries have arrested any terrorists.

And you're right, no Americans are celebrating the killing of abortion doctors. In fact there was only one person who killed a doctor and we imprisoned him and the rest shut up about it, right?

So yea, you are an apologist for the terrorists because you want to divvy up blame. Horse hockey. They are solely responsible. [/B]

Where have I divvied up blame?

[Kid A]

Originally posted by JustANavyMom
<<Did I say you said it? No, I said the way you "present" it, and when you "present" the fact that the Qu'ran advocates killing, and don't "present" the fact that the Bible does as well, then you're "presenting" a faulty logic and argument.>>

Kid A...

Nice try, but that doesn't fly.

I see you haven't opted for any of the 3 options I proposed.

Want to try again???

How does it not fly? Your tone is that you don't understand the ME, you don't understand their holy book and what you know of their holy book advocates violence and those people over there would just as soon blow you up as look at you.

That is the "tone" of your statements, please clarify if I'm wrong.

So when you have an overbearing tone and you then state something about their religious work without using your own religious work as a balancing point, then you aren't putting things in perspective, or being fair.

[myclearcreek]

Originally posted by Kid A
Did I say you said it? No, I said the way you "present" it, and when you "present" the fact that the Qu'ran advocates killing, and don't "present" the fact that the Bible does as well, then you're "presenting" a faulty logic and argument.




That seems to be your modus operandi, Kid A. You have been asked to back up your statements regarding the "10x" statement, which you backpedalled on. You don't have time to count them? Don't have time to cite a source? Then don't make the statement. I made a statement a few posts ago and said I would attempt to cite sources later today. If I cannot find the time to do so, I will edit my post. Will you do the same? Somehow I doubt it.

Rhonda

[nikto]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
Saying poverty is the cause of terrorism is an apology for terrorism. "It's not that they're bad people, they're just desperate." This is the implication of poverty as the cause - it is not treated so much as a cause as it is a justification. Of course nobody, at least outside of the ivory tower, would come out and overtly attempt to justify the terrorists. But, it's just one stepped removed to say that poverty was the cause. Especially when you consider which country is blamed by the rest of the world for causing so much poverty (guess who). If you meant something else, then you should be aware that you are in trace of a very common argument used by those who do justify terrorism (N Chomsky, et al).

I wouldn't believe it myself, but I could see how others may be duped by this argument if the terrorists actually said they were frustrated by poverty. But the incredible thing is, they say just the opposite. By any standard, poverty is exactly what they want - for themselves and for you and me. But still people say its poverty. This is why I say its apologetics. You're attributing to their behavior an extinuating factor (and who doesn't pity the poor, after all) that they themselves deny. If that's not apologetics, I don't know what is.

Last time - I never said poverty was to blame. The terrorists themselves are to blame. But there are reasons why the world situation is as it is - and this includes history, geopolitics, economics and yes, culture too. The books I've read that seem to influence my thinking are those such as: "Prize: The Epic Quest for Oil, Money & Power" by Daniel Yergin, "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers: Economic Change and Military Conflict from 1500 to 2000" by Paul Kennedy and writings of Robert Kaplan, like "Warrior Politics: Why Leadership Requires a Pagan Ethos". If reading books like these and generally agreeing with their thrusts puts me in the apologetic camp, then so be it.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Don't worry about nikita, there are people waiting for him at Benning that will square him right away.

I can hear him in 6 months "Kill 'em all!" "Who cares why they do it?" "Let's get 'em" "Where's my bullet launcher" "JIHAD! mfers!"


LOL

[Kid A]

Originally posted by myclearcreek
That seems to be your modus operandi, Kid A. You have been asked to back up your statements regarding the "10x" statement, which you backpedalled on. You don't have time to count them? Don't have time to cite a source? Then don't make the statement. I made a statement a few posts ago and said I would attempt to cite sources later today. If I cannot find the time to do so, I will edit my post. Will you do the same? Somehow I doubt it.

Rhonda

Actually I did provide a link to the statements in the bible.

Here are some Qu'ranic verses:

Sura 2:190-191a: "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. …"

There are a few at 2:216-218; and 8:38-41; and 9:5-6 & 29

So my 10X stands. In fact if I went back and counted the biblical verses about raping women and taking people into slavery and destroying tens of thousands of people I'd probably have to say 50 or 60 times, but I don't have the time to do so.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Don't worry about nikita, there are people waiting for him at Benning that will square him right away. LOL

It may be that the purpose of some people's lives are simply to serve as a warning to others :D

I recall Kid A spouting off about going the 18X route previously. I am sure there are a few people at Bragg who are looking forward to making his acquaintance :rolleyes:

[myclearcreek]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
...there are people waiting for him at Benning that will square him right away.

I can hear him in 6 months "Kill 'em all!" "Who cares why they do it?" "Let's get 'em" "Where's my bullet launcher" "JIHAD! mfers!"


LOL


:D :D :D :D :D :D :D


Rhonda

[Kid A]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
I recall Kid A spouting off about going the 18X route previously. I am sure there are a few people at Bragg who are looking forward to making his acquaintance :rolleyes:

There probably are. And I'm sure that they will judge me on my performance and capabilities rather than on some petty assed argument on Socnetcentral.com

[nikto]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Don't worry about nikita, there are people waiting for him at Benning that will square him right away.

I can hear him in 6 months "Kill 'em all!" "Who cares why they do it?" "Let's get 'em" "Where's my bullet launcher" "JIHAD! mfers!"

LOL

: ) I can't wait....... I'm just wasting time until I get the chance to start being a real man.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

I can hear KidZ now - "But I'm SURE if I went back and counted them, it would be 350 rounds per minute Drill Sergeant, but I don't have time." "You're wrong Master Sergeant, the Quoran is more against violence than the Bible." Of course the MSGT would be from LA (lower Alabama) - LOL.

"What did that boy say about the Good Book? No he didn't!"

JOIN NOW, KID Z, before its too late!

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by nikto
I'm just wasting time until I get the chance to start being a real man.

Does that entail the same thing as becoming a real woman?? :rolleyes: :D

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
I can hear KidZ now - "But I'm SURE if I went back and counted them, it would be 350 rounds per minute Drill Sergeant, but I don't have time." "You're wrong Master Sergeant, the Quoran is more against violence than the Bible." Of course the MSGT would be from LA (lower Alabama) - LOL.

"What did that boy say about the Good Book? No he didn't!"

JOIN NOW, KID Z, before its too late!

I wonder what Reaper has to say about that??

I, for one, would not want my name or reputation, good or bad, preceding me to SFAS.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

nikita, there are several appropriate responses to the above question - but as always, one is much better than the others.

[Kid A]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
I wonder what Reaper has to say about that??

I, for one, would not want my name or reputation, good or bad, preceding me to SFAS.

Well I'm certainly not going to have "Kid A" sewn on my nametape :)

[nikto]

I'm still waiting for just the right moment - it has to be special, you know?

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by nikto
I'm still waiting for just the right moment - it has to be special, you know?

I just hope he's gentle with you :D :p

[Kid A]

Originally posted by JustANavyMom

::::::::::::mumbling about why sending OBL a copy of Robert's Rules of Order is necessary:::::::::::::..."cause Kid said we had to be fair" ....

Oy.

hmm- do I sense a thread hijack here? I wasn't talking about terrorists, they can burn in hell. I'm talking about blanket labelling "Arabs" and "Muslims" as terrorists, of which there has been lots on this board lately.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by nikto
I'm still waiting for just the right moment - it has to be special, you know?

WRONG! See, you're already in FID state of mind. Think door kicker. You're letting the moment pass - Attack!

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by JustANavyMom
And when I start hearing that the "masses" of other Muslims kicking the cr@p out of those preaching and advocating violence, I'll be happy to agree Islam is a religion of peace. From where I sit every Muslim who remains quiet about the espoused murder of innocent civilians is just as guilty as the "good Germans" and just as guilty as OBL and the 19 hijackers.

Excellent point.

[nikto]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
WRONG! See, you're already in FID state of mind. Think door kicker. You're letting the moment pass - Attack!

Am I thinking of another FID? I can take it - it was my fault for a wrong turn of phrase......

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by nikto
Am I thinking of another FID? I can take it - it was my fault for a wrong turn of phrase......

And YOU ARE the weakest link. Appropriate response was "No sir, Mr. Gulf Yankee sir, you're confused. I'm going to Special Forces, not the Marines or Navy, but thank you for your service and concern about me." Very disappointing nikita.

Going back to the original thread and Kid Z, now.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by nikto
...Without a dictatorship and urgent economic needs driving their passions, their culture can explore all of its positive aspects.

Ahem.... You were saying something about never tying terrorism to poverty.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
.....not the Marines or Navy, ....

[sighs]

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/lapd/getalong2.jpg

Can't we all just get along??????:D

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Appropriate response was "No sir, Mr. Gulf Yankee sir, you're confused. I'm going to Special Forces, not the Marines or Navy, but thank you for your service and concern about me."


A young 18x candidate returns after his first parachute jump to his father who is a retired colonel. The colonel says: "Well, son, how did it go?"

"Dad, I was the last one... everyone already went, but I just couldn't get the nerve up..."

"Well, did you jump?"

"I looked out the door and saw the ground passing by... it was really scary."

"Well, did you jump?"

"Well, like I said, I was really scared, but then my sargeant whipped out his dick and said that if I didn't jump he was going to
fuck me up the ass..."

"Well, did you jump?"

"A little at first..."

:D :D :D :D :D

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by JustANavyMom
Where was I?? Oh yea, waiting for you to point out where I can find the millions of Arabs & muslims who ACTIVELY and VOCALLY disagree with the terrorists & are miffed with the terrorists about using the Qu'ran and Islam for evil purposes...

Those who do nothing are just as guilty...

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

JANM,
I would go you one better - I don't want them toa ctively and vocally disagree with terrorists - I want THEM to hand deliver Usama Bin Soon to be Dead and all his minions on a silver platter to the nearest US military base.l Until they do that, to me their just as guilty. They know that rat bastard is responsible for 9/11 and until they turn him over, they are aiding and abetting and should suffer the consequences.

[Doogie320]

http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27918

BTAR

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Sorry about the spelling on that last. I dropped a spoon and was looking over a shoulder...

I would like to see a policy where if a country has a known terrorist being refuge, we immediately attack what ever it is they use for national pride. Iraq - oil. 'Stan - goats (or whatever, I've never been there). LATAM - soccer teams. France - ?, never mind.

[Kid A]

Originally posted by JustANavyMom
Where was I?? Oh yea, waiting for you to point out where I can find the millions of Arabs & muslims who ACTIVELY and VOCALLY disagree with the terrorists & are miffed with the terrorists about using the Qu'ran and Islam for evil purposes...

Those who do nothing are just as guilty...

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

And I was waiting for the same from you re: abortion doctor killers.


Oh Kidddd?? Kid A, you here? Why are they quietly sitting by and indeed funneling them money in some cases???? Why aren't they helping OBL pack his bags for Gitmo?


Same goes for abortion doctor killers.

I already said you were right, remember? No other Muslim country is arresting any al-Qaeda members or Taliban members or terrorists. Remember? Remember?

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Kid,
Why are you comparing abortion to terrorism. While I don't agree with it in any sense, abortion as practiced by doctors in the US was deemed legal. Until we change the law, they are allowed.

Terrorism is a completely different matter. Even the Quran says you shouldn't kill innocent people from what I read. Those non-terrorist Muslims that harbor the rats are violating their laws, their religion, etc. But more importantly they are violating our laws. And since we have the best military - that's what counts. The winners (or more pwoerful) make the rules.

[nikto]

Two Marines boarded a quick shuttle flight out of Dallas, headed for Houston. One sat in the window seat, the other sat in the middle seat. Just before take-off, an SF soldier got on and took the aisle seat next to the two Marines. The soldier kicked off his boots, wiggled his toes and was settling in when the Marine in the window seat said, "I think I'll get up and get a Coke."

"No problem," said the soldier, "I'll get it for you." While he was gone, the Marine picked up the soldier's boot and spit in it.

When the soldier returned with the coke, the other Marine said, "That looks good, I think I'll have one too."

Again, the soldier obligingly went to fetch it and while he was gone, the Marine picked up the other boot and spit in it. The soldier returned and they all sat back and enjoyed the short flight to Houston. As the plane was landing, the soldier slipped his feet into his boots and knew immediately what had happened.

"How long must this go on?" the soldier asked. "This fighting between our groups? This hatred? This animosity? This spitting in boots and pissing in cokes?"

[Kid A]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Kid,
Why are you comparing abortion to terrorism. While I don't agree with it in any sense, abortion as practiced by doctors in the US was deemed legal. Until we change the law, they are allowed.

Terrorism is a completely different matter. Even the Quran says you shouldn't kill innocent people from what I read. Those non-terrorist Muslims that harbor the rats are violating their laws, their religion, etc. But more importantly they are violating our laws. And since we have the best military - that's what counts. The winners (or more pwoerful) make the rules.

Not comparing abortion to terrorism, I'm comparing people who kill abortion doctors because they believe the Bible tells them so and it's what Jesus wants to the people who blow themselves up on busses or fly planes into buildings because they believe the Qu'ran tells them so or it's what Mohammed wants them to do.

Navy Mom said that Muslims give money to the terrorists who blow themselves up. This is true. Not all Muslims, not even a majority of Muslims, but some Muslims do. But Christians also give money to the idiots who sponsor killings of abortion doctors. not all Christians, not even a majority of Christians, but some Christians.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
'Stan - goats (or whatever, I've never been there). LATAM - soccer teams. France - ?, never mind.

The closest I've got to 'Stan is the Afghani souk in Abu Dhabi. The nearest things to goats there were the body odor of the afghanis. They do have a shitload of carpets though.

LATAM: You can have the soccer teams, give me the Brazilian chicks :D

France: Let those cowards live in shame :rolleyes:

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Blasphemer! An SF soldier taking off his boots? No way. Too late for ammends - you're off the island already.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Sorry Kid, I misunderstood your point-its clear now. What do you think happens to those people that give money to the abortion killer doctors when Johnny Law catches them? Or the people that knew where the killers are and don't turn them in? Its a crime and they get punished for it.

[ktek01]

Originally posted by Kid A
Not comparing abortion to terrorism, I'm comparing people who kill abortion doctors because they believe the Bible tells them so and it's what Jesus wants to the people who blow themselves up on busses or fly planes into buildings because they believe the Qu'ran tells them so or it's what Mohammed wants them to do.

Navy Mom said that Muslims give money to the terrorists who blow themselves up. This is true. Not all Muslims, not even a majority of Muslims, but some Muslims do. But Christians also give money to the idiots who sponsor killings of abortion doctors. not all Christians, not even a majority of Christians, but some Christians.

That is some comparison you are making there, I only have one question. Can you really be that stupid?

[Kid A]

Originally posted by JustANavyMom
*********************

On killing doctors? answer here:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,96286,00.html
Let's let Jeb Bush speak...

...Paul Hill, a former minister who gunned down an abortion doctor, .... when he becomes the first person executed in the United States for anti-abortion violence.

....Gov. Jeb Bush, who was named in one of those threatening letters, said Tuesday the threats would not keep him from carrying out the law.

"I'm not going to be bullied," Bush said.

Bush also said: "I'm not going to change the deeply held views that I have on (the death penalty) because others have deeply held views that disagree.

"I totally respect them. And they should respect what the rule of law is here in our state."...

**********************

On no Muslim state standing up against the terrorists? thank you.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/11/184006.shtml

"WASHINGTON – As many as a half-dozen men "of U.S. origin" have been captured in the tribal areas of Pakistan near Afghanistan and handed over to U.S. authorities in an operation to root out al-Qaeda terrorists and Taliban extremists, Pakistani sources told United Press International on Tuesday."

---

Pakistan arrests 300 Wahabi terrorists after suicide bombing

Karachi, Pakistan

By Qasim Jalal

Pakistani authorities on Thursday rounded up nearly 300 Wahabi militants after a suicide bomb that killed 14 people, including 11 French engineers a day earlier. The Wahabis belong to Sipah e Sahaba, Jaish-e-Mohammed and other Saudi backed terror groups.

---
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/09/20/pakistan.arrests/

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (CNN) -- Police in Karachi arrested three people Friday whom police sources said were linked to Harkat Ul Mujahideen Al-Almi, a terrorist organization.

____

Egypt Arrests Islamists Tied to Bin Laden
NewsMax.com Wires
Monday, Sept. 17, 2001
CAIRO, Egypt - Egyptian authorities have arrested nearly 40 members of two banned Islamic militias believed to have ties to suspected terrorist Osama bin Laden, lawyers and security officials said Sunday.
---

Saudi Arabia arrests suspects linked to al-Qaida planning terror attacks
Tue Jun 18, 5:20 PM ET
By JOHN R. BRADLEY, Associated Press Writer
JIDDAH, Saudi Arabia - Saudi Arabia announced its first al-Qaida-related arrests since Sept. 11 and said Tuesday it was holding 11 Saudis, an Iraqi and a Sudanese man behind a plot to shoot down a U.S. military plane taking off from a Saudi air base.

___

This is easy. The way I did it is simple.
1. Go to Google.com
2. Type in (name of country - I picked Pakistan first and then Jordan second) and they put "arrests terrorists"
3. Click "Google Search"
4. Repeat with name of any Middle Eastern Country of Choice.

"Iraqi arrests two 'terrorists' linked to Iran
Iraq-Iran, Politics, 7/24/2002

Iraqi security announced Tuesday that it arrested two terrorists linked to Iran, saying the pair would make public confessions."

Hell even Iraq is in on the game.

_____
Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi Condemns Attacks Against Civilians: Forbidden in Islam



DOHA, Qatar, Sept 13 (IslamOnline & News Agencies) - Renowned Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi denounced the attacks against civilians in the U.S. Tuesday and encouraged Muslims to donate blood to the victims of the attack.

In response to the bloody attack against civilians in the U.S., Sheikh Yusuf issued a statement Wednesday saying that:

"Our hearts bleed for the attacks that has targeted the World Trade Center [WTC], as well as other institutions in the United States despite our strong oppositions to the American biased policy towards Israel on the military, political and economic fronts.

"Islam, the religion of tolerance, holds the human soul in high esteem, and considers the attack against innocent human beings a grave sin, this is backed by the Qur'anic verse which reads:

Who so ever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he has killed all mankind, and who so ever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind," (Al-Ma'dah:32).

[Kid A]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Sorry Kid, I misunderstood your point-its clear now. What do you think happens to those people that give money to the abortion killer doctors when Johnny Law catches them? Or the people that knew where the killers are and don't turn them in? Its a crime and they get punished for it.

Exactly. Same as what happens to terrorists.
See posting re: Pakistan arrests terrorists. Saudi Arabia arrests Terrorists, etc.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by nikto
Two Marines boarded a quick shuttle flight out of Dallas, headed for Houston....

Unless you're prior-service you pathetic little "hopeful," you don't rate to tell that joke yet. The only jokes you rate to tell, as I see it, are the ones about the Boy Scouts and the Webelos. Otherwise, STFU.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Kid,
There's one problem with your examples. Most of them came after a terrorist act was comitted in the arresting country. Not becuase of what they did to us. And they came a couple of years after what they did to us. After what I would imagine to be incredible pressure from the US.

What JANM and I are talking about is doing it because they truly believe what the extremist are doing is wrong. Not because they did it to them or because they won't be able to eat if they don't make the arrests.

How many of the arrests were made or facilitated by the Muslim clerics?

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
Unless you're prior-service you pathetic little "hopeful," you don't rate to tell that joke yet. The only jokes you rate to tell, as I see it, are the ones about the Boy Scouts and the Webelos. Otherwise, STFU.

LOL - now you've done it nikita. Not only were you voted off the island, you've pissed off the Marine Corps.


RUN!

[Kid A]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
[What JANM and I are talking about is doing it because they truly believe what the extremist are doing is wrong. Not because they did it to them or because they won't be able to eat if they don't make the arrests.

How many of the arrests were made or facilitated by the Muslim clerics? [/B]

I think they should as well, and there have been statements that what extremists are doing is wrong, I posted one example. I can post more, but I believe you'll agree that the statements are being made.

Are they as prevalent as the ones advocating violence? No, but I also haven't seen many media stories on Muslims preaching peace, whereas I see tons on Muslims advocating violence. Does it mean there are more of one than the other? Not necessarily.

If you came here from Paraguay and knew nothing about the US you'd probably assume that every other person is either a religious wacko, a murderer, drug dealer, absolutely stupid, or a rapist. Is it true? No.

[BadMuther]

Hey Ripper,

I used to be a "webelo", we-be-loyal,

"One time at band camp......"

[myclearcreek]

Originally posted by Doogie320
http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27918

BTAR

Did anyone read this post other than myself?

Bar-room brawl seems appropriate, since alcohol has been mentioned and targets appear to be lining up...


Rhonda

[RipperTOW]

Oh yeah, I heard the Scouts were way better. I heard the Scouts can build a campfire with half as much wood as the Webolos.

SCOUTS RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WEBELOS SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[in a low voice] not that I ever did either one, but....

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Kid,
We're not talking about statements - they can say whatever they want. We're talking about actions. By your own admission there are more examples of calls for war than peace. Yes, I'm sure the Muslims have their Ghandis. We'll find them as we sift through. Now go do PT if you're going to 18X.

[Kid A]

Now go do PT if you're going to 18X

Don't be telling me what to do over a GD message board. I'll do PT on my own time at my own pace and when I darn well feel like it.

:eek:

JK, Moving out.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Kid A
Don't be telling me what to do over a GD message board. I'll do PT on my own time at my own pace and when I darn well feel like it.

:eek:

JK, Moving out.

Ok, fine. Send me your address. If I can't make it myself (I'm about 2,000 miles away and busy), I'm sure I can find somebody that can.

[Kid A]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Ok, fine. Send me your address. If I can't make it myself (I'm about 2,000 miles away and busy), I'm sure I can find somebody that can.

I'm pumping, I'm pumping.

Edit: Er, I mean, I'm pushing, I'm pushing.
:D

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Kid A
I'm pumping, I'm pumping.

Edit: Er, I mean, I'm pushing, I'm pushing.
:D

Does that mean you're not going to send the address?

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Ok, fine. Send me your address. If I can't make it myself (I'm about 2,000 miles away and busy), I'm sure I can find somebody that can.

Sneaky:

I tried to warn him about the perils of making a name for himself before he hits SFAS but kids today, they don't want to listen.

Let's see:

1990-1991 5/5 ADAR, 2 ID, Korea; 1991-1993 3/4 ADAR, 82d Abn Division; 1993-1995, Command Group, HHC, 82d Abn Div.

Capital Hill staffer to a Democratic member of the House Armed Services Committee.

Sure he'll be hard to spot. :rolleyes:


(walking away, shaking my head)

[ktek01]

Originally posted by Kid A
Don't be telling me what to do over a GD message board. I'll do PT on my own time at my own pace and when I darn well feel like it.

:eek:

JK, Moving out.

Well now you answered the question I had earlier.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Ok, fine. Send me your address. If I can't make it myself (I'm about 2,000 miles away and busy), I'm sure I can find somebody that can.

Shit, he don't work but four blocks from one of my lady friends' apartment. Sounds like he lives close, too. Hell, I have probably said inconsiderate things to him at the Lounge or Politiki. Now, I'm not qualified to do much but look mean, but I can facilitate whatever it is you need Sneaky.

[Kid A]

Originally posted by ktek01
Well now you answered the question I had earlier.

Which question was that? It was a joke. It was a break from the monotony of all the arguments. Sneaky SF Dude was the only person responding to me without name-calling and I appreciated it. I made a joke along the lines of someone who does NOT appreciate when people say "go do PT" and immediately said "JK" or "Just Kidding"

Christ - when did humor get banned here?

[Kid A]

Originally posted by Jimbo
Shit, he don't work but four blocks from one of my lady friends' apartment. Sounds like he lives close, too. Hell, I have probably said inconsiderate things to him at the Lounge or Politiki. Now, I'm not qualified to do much but look mean, but I can facilitate whatever it is you need Sneaky.

I stay as far away from Hill Bars during off-hours as possible. I don't think I've ever been in Politiki.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
Sneaky:

I tried to warn him about the perils of making a name for himself before he hits SFAS but kids today, they don't want to listen.

Let's see, prior-service 82nd Airborne, GW1 veteran, Capital Hill staffer to a Democratic member of the House Armed Services Committee. Sure he'll be hard to spot. :rolleyes:

It's sad to see a career ended before it even got started.

(walking away, shaking my head)

I wouldn't do anything to his career, I'm not like that. He didn't like me telling him to do PT on a message board and he's right. More than happy to do it in person. He won't go to 18X, he's found his niche as an apologist for bad people. He's probably right where he needs to be and knows it. With a name like KidA, you have to wonder...

KidA, just so you'll know, I'm still doing it. Without weapons many times in places that you never heard of. I tend to be very patient, but I seldom have a problem backing up what I say. If you want to get fiesty, I'm more than happy to be your Huckleberry. Logistics may require that you wait for a while, but you won't be disappointed, I assure you.

[Kid A]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
I wouldn't do anything to his career, I'm not like that. He didn't like me telling him to do PT on a message board and he's right. More than happy to do it in person. He won't go to 18X, he's found his niche as an apologist for bad people. He's probably right where he needs to be and knows it. With a name like KidA, you have to wonder...

KidA, just so you'll know, I'm still doing it. Without weapons many times in places that you never heard of. I tend to be very patient, but I seldom have a problem backing up what I say. If you want to get fiesty, I'm more than happy to be your Huckleberry. Logistics may require that you wait for a while, but you won't be disappointed, I assure you.

I don't mind being made to do PT. That's why I said "JK" or "Just Kidding" and started pushing.

And I've never once apologized for bad people. I've tried, all along, to try to separate the terrorists from the typical run of the mill Muslim who wants to worship Allah, sell some oil or rugs, and wait until he gets to his 72 Virgins.

Anyway, I'm still pushing.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
I wouldn't do anything to his career, I'm not like that.

Understood. I figure with his mouth and attitude he won't get far. They still do peer evaluations during selection, don't they?

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Kid A
I stay as far away from Hill Bars during off-hours as possible.

So you drink while on the job? My confidence in Congress is just skyrocketing.

Then again, if you're boozed up it would explain many of your posts.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by Jimbo
but I can facilitate whatever it is you need Sneaky.

How about providing the address to your lady friend's apartment? :D

[Kid A]

Originally posted by Jimbo
So you drink while on the job? My confidence in Congress is just skyrocketing.

Then again, if you're boozed up it would explain many of your posts.

Yeah, I do. I take a two martini smoke break and a four martini lunch. Usually around 3 pm I'm having a couple of shots with my good friend Fat Kennedy.

This is getting ridiculous.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
How about providing the address to your lady friend's apartment? :D

I keep forgetting. Let me find out for you. Kid A, what's your girlfriend's address again?

[Kid A]

Originally posted by Jimbo
I keep forgetting. Let me find out for you. Kid A, what's your girlfriend's address again?

Oh christ you wouldn't want to go to her house, she's a raging Democrat with an Inf. Colonel for a daddy.

you think the arguments in this place get heated...grab a beer and pull up a chair, they get out of control at their house.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Kid A,
I'm not a big believer in PMs, you say it on the board, you should be willing to say it ALL on the board.

I'm not going to ask anyone to go to your house, its more effective in person. You said it was a joke and I'll accept that, although I don't believe doing push ups.

As you said, and as I should have learned by now, I was trying to be polite and you took advantage. It never works, but I have to try every now and then. You showed disrespect to the person that, by your own admission, was being polite. I'm not angry, I'm disappointed, especially since you claim to be from my former unit and a combat veteran. If anything, I would have thought combat would have taught you not to underestimate your opponent or under appreciate those that appear to be allies (or at least not openly attacking you).

But mostly, I'm sad. Sad that your time in one of the US Army's finest units did not teach you not to poke a fuckin' bear with a stick. I'm sad that your squad leader didn't teach you that on Day 1. I guess those intangibles aren't stressed as much as they once were. Of course, we can't all have Teutates for a Team Sergeant either, can we?

[Kid A]

Sneaky - I did say on the board essentially what I said in the PM. You have it. You can confirm or deny it.

I didn't mean any disrespect at all and I didn't try to take advantage.

To put it in context: There are a couple of people in here who engage me in what I shall call vigorous debates. A couple of them have mentioned that I'd be contrary no matter what they say because I like to argue. Which is partially true, but I'm also going to defend my beliefs, right or wrong.

Keeping that in mind, when you said to "go do PT" I took on the contrary persona and made the comment about "not doing what you tell me" (paraphrased) and immediately after that, in the same message body, I said Just Kidding and that I was pushing. No I wasn't physically doing pushups but I was keeping in check.

I assumed that with the "just kidding" everyone would see that I was clearly making a joke and being contrary just because that's what I'm assumed to be (I expect a comment here to the effect that "no we don't assume you to be contrary, you are contrary"). I underestimated my own posting.

I was not poking a bear with a stick. I didn't even have a stick. I was making what I thought was a clear joke.


And on combat veteran status, I stood around with a stinger missile looking for non-existent Iraqi planes. I got a good tan and no combat.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Fair enough. Yes you did say essentially the same thing in your PM, now that I read it. And you're honest about your combat experience - very refreshing. As I said, I accept that it was a joke.

I don't have much of a sense of humor with people I don't know. Better to not assume that a joke is understood to be a joke.

I'm tired of being nice now, so better to let this drop (unless you really want to play?).

[Kid A]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Fair enough. Yes you did say essentially the same thing in your PM, now that I read it. And you're honest about your combat experience - very refreshing. As I said, I accept that it was a joke.

I don't have much of a sense of humor with people I don't know. Better to not assume that a joke is understood to be a joke.

I'm tired of being nice now, so better to let this drop (unless you really want to play?).

Nope. No playing. Heap big PT to do.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by Kid A
... I stood around with a stinger missile looking for non-existent Iraqi planes.

DAMN, you guys have Stinger missiles?!?! The Marine Corps still uses these:

http://www.milicast.com/photos/small/us29.jpg

[Kid A]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
DAMN, you guys have Stinger missiles?!?! The Marine Corps still uses these:

http://www.milicast.com/photos/small/us29.jpg

Actually I started my training on this large piece of shit:

http://docs.usapa.belvoir.army.mil/jw2/xmldemo/p600_3_14/p600_3_14f4.png

Then we had to cross train to Stinger. I changed units when they phased in the Avenger.

[RIT_MEDIC]

Damn, Where the hell have I been. Got all kinds of folks in Kid A's ass and I have missed it. J/K Kid A dont get your bloomers in a wad.

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
... He won't go to 18X, he's found his niche as an apologist for bad people. He's probably right where he needs to be and knows it. With a name like KidA, you have to wonder...

Originally posted by KidA
And I've never once apologized for bad people. I've tried, all along, to try to separate the terrorists from the typical run of the mill Muslim who wants to worship Allah, sell some oil or rugs, and wait until he gets to his 72 Virgins...


And BTW Kid A what makes you believe Sneaky was talking about the terrorists and not the liberals you work for. I am not insenuating he was, just asking.

James D.

[RipperTOW]

You think that's bad? Our guys trained with these:

http://www.english-longbow.co.uk/model-archer-web.gif

(notice the technique, scanning the skies for possible bogeys)

Let's face it, this is one argument in which you have no hope.

[peter28]

B]Within the context of actions or events that happened during the time of the Prophet(as with some verses about some of the battles that the Prophet fought, or to denounce some hypocrits that were in his clan, or to talk about some of the miracles that happened in the Prophet's lifetime[/B]

Mohammed performed miracles? What miracles did the "prophet" perform?
Thank you,
Peter

[Kid A]

Originally posted by RIT_MEDIC

And BTW Kid A what makes you believe Sneaky was talking about the terrorists and not the liberals you work for. I am not insenuating he was, just asking.

James D.

Democrat does not equal Liberal. My boss is the cheapest bastard around.

Panties? hell I go commando.

[Kid A]

Originally posted by RipperTOW

Let's face it, this is one argument in which you have no hope.

Ok, allow me one final push for the goal.

We trained with these:

http://members.fortunecity.com/picturesfromkorea/koreaimages/katusa_soldiers.jpg

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
You think that's bad? Our guys trained with these:

http://www.english-longbow.co.uk/model-archer-web.gif

(notice the technique, scanning the skies for possible bogeys)

Let's face it, this is one argument in which you have no hope.

LOL - That's Rat's official photo for promotion to Lance Corporal.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Kid A,
I've been reading some of your other posts and frankly, I'm a little concerned. Are you playing devil's advocate or are you a true believer?

[Kid A]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Kid A,
I've been reading some of your other posts and frankly, I'm a little concerned. Are you playing devil's advocate or are you a true believer?

A True Believer? That's what we call Trent Lott's followers up here.

Or do you mean True Believer of Islam? No, hardly. I'm an atheist. I think that there are good things in the Qu'ran, such as if you kill someone you're responsible for the killing of all humanity, such as not being the aggressor, but fighting like hell if you're aggressed against, and of being responsible if anyone falls out of society because of inaction by those more fortunate.

And I think there are bad things in the Qu'ran as well, such as placing such high importance on the afterlife. But that's in Christianity as well. My ex-wife is an "Assemblies of God" adherent. They don't do crap here except sit around waiting for their crown of gold and streets of pearl or whatever it is.

I was trying to be devil's advocate for Muslims. There's billions of them, there are hundreds, maybe thousands, of the fundamentalists. Unfortunately they're in charge and they're brainwashing.

But I try not to fault the poor pakistani kid who has been taught nothing but radical hate because he's been taught nothing but radical hate -- until he takes that step towards me with a bomb strapped around his dick and then I'll double-tap his ass.

Just like I don't fault the Palestinian because he's been fucked all his life by an Occupying Force that doesn't abide by the rules they signed and then gets pissed off when the Palestinians don't. Until that Palestinian blows up a bus, then fuck him - of course he's fucked, but fuck the people who sent him.

Or do you mean am I a Democratic true believer? No, not that either. But I'm voting for anyone running against Bush.

[RIT_MEDIC]

Originally posted by Kid A
Democrat does not equal Liberal. My boss is the cheapest bastard around.

Panties? hell I go commando.

Democrat then, you still side stepped the question. This is not an IMT exercise.


Your boss might be the cheapest with his money...

James D.

[Kid A]

Originally posted by RIT_MEDIC
Democrat then, you still side stepped the question. This is not an IMT exercise.


Your boss might be the cheapest with his money...

James D.

nah, you'd be surprised how many Democrats voted down spending increases and call for balanced budgets.

Hastert (R) has allowed how many balanced budget amendments to come to the floor in the 2+ years that he's been Speaker of the House?

That's right folks, ZERO.

[RIT_MEDIC]

Originally posted by Kid A
A True Believer? That's what we call Trent Lott's followers up here.

Talk about taking words out of context. There is a fine example of it...but thats another debate.



Or do you mean True Believer of Islam? No, hardly. I'm an atheist. I think that there are good things in the Qu'ran, such as if you kill someone you're responsible for the killing of all humanity, such as not being the aggressor, but fighting like hell if you're aggressed against, and of being responsible if anyone falls out of society because of inaction by those more fortunate...

...I was trying to be devil's advocate for Muslims. There's billions of them, there are hundreds, maybe thousands, of the fundamentalists. Unfortunately they're in charge and they're brainwashing.

But I try not to fault the poor pakistani kid who has been taught nothing but radical hate because he's been taught nothing but radical hate -- until he takes that step towards me with a bomb strapped around his dick and then I'll double-tap his ass.

Just like I don't fault the Palestinian because he's been fucked all his life by an Occupying Force that doesn't abide by the rules they signed and then gets pissed off when the Palestinians don't. Until that Palestinian blows up a bus, then fuck him - of course he's fucked, but fuck the people who sent him.

Kid A

I think the boat you are missing is that it is not only about the ones wearing the bombs, but what about the bomb makers, the individuals who supply the bomb makers, the money launderers(sp), and so on. There is more to the terrorists than just the ones who do the killing, although in my mind the supply network is as guilty.

My point is, if you/we wait around until the bomb wearer comes at you face to face, assuming he does not walk up from behind, it will be too late. We as a nation have let those times pass us by. We can no longer be reactive, we MUST be proactive in hunting down the terrorists. And to quote our President, "If you are not with us, you are with the terrorists." Those that know where they are and are just looking the other way are guilty of the same as those that carry out the acts themselves.

James D

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Kid A
But I'm voting for anyone running against Bush.

I'd appreciate it if you would refer to him as President Bush, if you don't respect the man, at elast respect the office.

Very interesting your comments. In true believer I was referring to a crusader that believes in pretty much everything that you described.

I don't blame the little Pakistani kid either, but then we're not killing little Pakistani kids are we?

You seem to be very opinionated on various religions for an atheist. I don't quite no what to make of that.

So in summary - you're not:
1) Christian
2) Muslim
3) Democrat
4) blaming the Pakistani children until they take a step toward you with a bomb
5) Against the Palestinians
6) For the Palestinians

That about sum it up?

[RIT_MEDIC]

Originally posted by Kid A
Nope. He's (or she's) denied every salary increase his or her buddies have voted for themselves.

I can't say more because, frankly, I don't want it to get out who he (or she) is over a messageboard.

But I can tell you that he, or she, is the most fiscally conservative member of the House I've ever seen.

Well good for him/her and better yet good for the tax-payer.

Still side stepping though Kid A. Cant say as though I can blame you though...look where you work.

James D

[Kid A]

Originally posted by RIT_MEDIC
Talk about taking words out of context. There is a fine example of it...but thats another debate.





Kid A

I think the boat you are missing is that it is not only about the ones wearing the bombs, but what about the bomb makers, the individuals who supply the bomb makers, the money launderers(sp), and so on. There is more to the terrorists than just the ones who do the killing, although in my mind the supply network is as guilty.

My point is, if you/we wait around until the bomb wearer comes at you face to face, assuming he does not walk up from behind, it will be too late. We as a nation have let those times pass us by. We can no longer be reactive, we MUST be proactive in hunting down the terrorists. And to quote our President, "If you are not with us, you are with the terrorists." Those that know where they are and are just looking the other way are guilty of the same as those that carry out the acts themselves.

James D

i agree with all of this.

But in that vein, why are we being such pansy assed pussies with regards to Saudi Arabia? Shit how much terrorist money comes from there?

And Pakistan is yanking our chain as well. Oh no, don't come here, we'll find them for you.

Fuck that.

The President can say all he wants, but until his actions meet his words then he's just talking.

yes I realize it's a touchy world out there and we have to pick allies from our enemies, but in that case don't be spouting rhetoric. You want to stop terrorism? Kill the Saudi fucks spending billions of dollars funding them.

[Kid A]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude

So in summary - you're not:
1) Christian
2) Muslim
3) Democrat
4) blaming the Pakistani children until they take a step toward you with a bomb
5) Against the Palestinians
6) For the Palestinians

That about sum it up?

I am a registered Democrat, that doesn't mean I'm a media-frenzy Feinstein Democrat.

And I know we aren't killing the Pakistani children, but some in here were arguing they were all unintelligent backwards fucks with their heads in the 6th century - that's what I was speaking against.

I'm for a Palestinian state. That doesn't mean I'm against an Israeli state.


RE: Sidestepping

And BTW Kid A what makes you believe Sneaky was talking about the terrorists and not the liberals you work for. I am not insenuating he was, just asking.

Is this what you're referring to, RIT_Medic?

I don't work for any liberals, therefore I didn't assume he was talking about me. I assumed he was talking about terrorists since this entire conversation has been about them.

[Doogie320]

Originally posted by myclearcreek
Did anyone read this post other than myself?

Bar-room brawl seems appropriate, since alcohol has been mentioned and targets appear to be lining up...


Rhonda

Wow. Somebody reads my drivel.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

You're on staff for a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee? Do you "f" this and "f" that in that environment?

A Palestinian state is not the problem. The problem is those 100, 1,00, 10,000 whatever the number is don't want a state, they wany Israel gone.

If the masses don't want to be in the 6th century, if they don't want to be led by terrorists, if they don't want their (wives, mothers, sisters) abused, if they don't want us to take over their countries - they know what they have to do.

We didn't get where we are today through enlightened leadership - the Clinton and Carter years prove that. We got where we are as a nation because we know and do what's right as a people. Yes, there are exceptions, but we don't let them take over.

I'll give you another, easier example. Chavez in Venezuela. Five years ago Venezuela was a worker's paradise. Chavez has destroyed that country. One man. You know what they're waiting for to get rid of him? The rule of law. They're trying to referndum him out of office. Know what? It isn't going to work. Eventually, somebody will have to pick up a gun. Some good people will get hurt. Some kids will get killed. Just the way it is. Who's fault is it? In my opinion, the people that didn't stop him when they had the chance. The people that put him in office because of self interest. He promised the poor and workers everything. He's a populist.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by Kid A
There's billions of them, there are hundreds, maybe thousands, of the fundamentalists.

A conservative estimate would be somewhere around 10% of muslims being classified as fundamentalist. That's 100 million of them.

[ralph conner]

Originally posted by myclearcreek
Did anyone read this post other than myself?

Bar-room brawl seems appropriate, since alcohol has been mentioned and targets appear to be lining up...


Rhonda

***

'Thunderdome' would be appropriate.

"two men enter - one man leaves..."

[ktek01]

Originally posted by Kid A
Which question was that?

Way back on page 7 when I asked you "Can you really be that stupid?"

[myclearcreek]

Originally posted by Doogie320
Wow. Somebody reads my drivel.


Yes, I do. I like the Search function as well ;) .

Rhonda

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Gulf Yankee
A conservative estimate would be somewhere around 10% of muslims being classified as fundamentalist. That's 100 million of them.

Damn that Gulf Yankee and his accurate math!!

[mangda]

The fundamentalists live in the third world in mud huts, the 'moderates' live in the west. The 'moderates' are a bigger threat.