Reserve teams

[Dragon]

Are there Navy Reserve SEAL Teams? Where are they located? Do you have to be prior active duty to enlist in the N.R.?

[GreenGhost]

A for reserves. i ain't sure.. check the SEAL site.... as for the navy reserves.. you have ot be atleast 26 and have four years in the navy to join reserves. Which doesn't leave much opportunity for young people to join the reserves and get pproper prior training.... which is rough cause all it leaves is army reserves and national gaurd.

[Dragon]

26 and 4 years active navy? why on earth?
I'm sure the does cost the them a lot of potential young recruits who want to serve in the "part time" navy.

[Baja]

Why?

It makes perfect sense to me...there is simply not a need for a large contingent of part-time SEALs. And a bunch of dip$h!ts with the weekend warrior mentality and no ops experience would only "dilute the brand," as it were. (Some would argue that certain SF Reserve groups - such as the 17th SFG - have lower service standards after the initial hooah than their active duty counterparts.) You don't want guys who haven't been there and done that to wear the Trident...or at least I don't.

Last I knew, the only SEAL reserve units are 'attached' to ST4, and are located in obvious (VA BEACH) and not-so-obvious (Indianapolis) places. With 3 or 4 locations total.

(Trivia: When was the last time the SEAL Reserves were featured in the national news?)

- Baja

[Grant]

Baja,
So there really is SEAL reserve guys attached to ST4???? That seems stupid. Spec Ops units require such intense training and dedication. It seems to me that reserve units would not be in the same ballpark as to capabilites. Spec Ops units should be full-time soldiers/sailors, not "weekend warriors.
Just my $0.02,
Grant

[Grant]

Baja,
So there really is SEAL reserve guys attached to ST4???? That seems stupid. Spec Ops units require such intense training and dedication. It seems to me that reserve units would not be in the same ballpark as to capabilites. Spec Ops units should be full-time soldiers/sailors, not "weekend warriors.
Just my $0.02,
Grant

[Scout]

Baja,

From your other posts, and from your comment about "17th SFG" (there's not now nor has there ever been a 17th SF Group, there is not currently ANY Reserve SF groups, though there are 2 Guard Groups) I suspect that you're not in Special Operations. Do you wear the Trident?

[trident86]

FYI,
Only guys who wear a trident (or use to wear one) operate in the Reserve Teams, but there are support slots open as well. The mission of the Reserves is to back fill a SEAL Team when it is forward deployed in time of war (ie: Desert Storm). A SEAL Team cannot just drop its commitments in a theater entirely, and there has to be someone back home to run things when everyone is out of town.

[DCH]

Thank You Trident86!!

J.H. Christ people! I'm not in the military, but I have enough sense NOT to dump on those who are- Regular or RESERVES regardless!

'RESPECT' people!, look it up..

Once again, Thank You to Trident86 for your acknowledgment of SUPPORT units and overall professionalism.

-DCH

LASD83D1

[Mike]

from http://www.periscope.ucg.com/nations/usa/usa/spopsfor/index.html
YOU NEED A PASSWORD FOR THIS. ASK YOUR LIBRARY TO SUBSCRIBE TO IT. I CANNOT GIVE OUT THE PASSWORD SINCE IT IS PASS-PROTECTED.

Naval Reserve Special Operations Forces (includes the following reserve units and active units with some reserve members):
Naval Spec Warfare Group One Det 119, San Diego, CA

Naval Spec Warfare Group One Det 219, Santa Barabara, CA

Naval Spec Warfare Group One Det 122, Seattle, WA

Naval Spec Warfare Group One Det 113, Springfield, MO

Naval Spec Warfare Group Two Det 107, Norfolk, VA

Naval Spec Warfare Group Two Det 309, Columbus, OH

SEAL Team 1, San Diego, CA
SEAL Team 3, San Diego, CA
SEAL Team 5, San Diego, CA
SEAL Team 2, Providence, RI
SEAL Team 4, Norfolk, VA
SEAL Team 8, Gary, IN

Naval Special Warfare Unit 1, Stockton, CA
Naval Special Warfare Unit 2, Kearny, NJ
Naval Special Warfare Unit 8, Miami, FL

Seal Delivery Vehicle Team 1/2, Austin, TX
Special Boat Squadron One, San Diego, CA
Special Boat Squadron Two, Norfolk, VA
Special Boat Unit 11, Vallejo, CA
Special Boat Unit 22, New Orleans, LA
Special Boat Unit 12, San Diego, CA
Special Boat Unit 20, Richmond, VA

[Scout]

DCH,

Its not "you guys", its one disrespectful little shit trying to look like he knows something, and one future Cadet trying to fit in.

Grant,

Try to learn if a poster is speaking from experience or if he's blowing smoke. There's a lot fo great information on there boards, but there's also a lot of high schoolers who think they know everything. You can usually get some hint by the language used. Generally, real operators are pretty repsectful here.

Baja,

I'm national guard solder and damned proud of it. I take this a bit more seriously than a "weekend warrior" thing, as so does the vast majority of Guardsmen and Reservists I know.
Next time, before you open your mouth, think first.

"Dilute the brand"??? that's kind of hard since most NG SF soldiers I know are prior active duty, many with Vietnam or Gulf War
experience. "Lower service standards"? Let me ask you thi, pup. Who makes a better medic: an active duty NCO who trains on the stuff daily, or a paramedic who works trama injuries daily? Who makes a better Engineer, the active duty guy, or the part timer who builds buildings every day of the week? Who's the better commo man? The guy who practices at Ft Bragg, or the guy who works in global telecommunications? Weapons SGT: I guess the SWAT cops I know are sub-standard, too? Who could be better at instructing FID than the teacher from an inner city high school where have the kids don't speak english? Maybe in
some areas, Guard SF aren't as highly trained as their active counterparts, but in some respects they are as, if not more qualified as the full-timers. No ops experience? I know 20th SFG deploys regularly to Honduras, Costa Rica, and other central and south american countrys, 19th does the same in Asia.

It may or may not be different with other SpecOps units, others can say better than I.
But is obvious that your're not the one qualified to make that call.

Scout
AL ARNG

[DCH]

"Here, Here, and a Friggin A!"

-DCH

[Chuck]

Baja,
I can back Scout's play regarding Army NG SF. I am currently training to get my tab with 20th SFG in Ocala, Fl. I have prior active service with 1st Ranger Bn. & I am a 10 year police veteran who has served on the SWAT Team & am currently assigned to K-9. I have been around the block so to speak. I say this not to get into a dick measuring contest with you or anyone else out there but to qualify my upcoming comments. From my perspective, training with NG SF has been a very challenging ordeal. Granted I am not 19 anymore, but our standards to attend the active duty component SFAS & Q-Course are if anything more demanding than active duty standards. Trust me when I say I have to train my ass off between drills to be ready for my weekends when they arrive. Otherwise I would be sorely pressed to have PT scores that cut the mustard unless I were just a physical specimen. For the record, I am not, I have to work for all of it! We are required to score a minimum of 80% in push-ups, sit-ups, & 2 mile run in the 18-21 year old age category regardless of our age. This is much higher than the 60% required by active duty candidates to attend SFAS. The Guard has to set these high standards to insure that they are not wasting school slots when soldiers are sent. I have to earn that tab just like any other soldier. Scout is also correct about the knowledge in NG SF units. Many soldiers are prior service with the active duty SF components as well as other branches of service. My NQP team currently has a prior Navy BUDS graduate in its ranks. As with anywhere else in military life or otherwise, you do have individuals who do not hold themselves personally at as high a level as others. We do our best to weed out such men as do other units who do not want the man on ones left or right to be in any doubt when the shit hits the fan. When and if we deploy our missions are no less real or critical than any other units and so our training mentality must be equal to the task. I submit to you that being a Guardsman does not neccessarily imply a "weekend warrior" mentality. Your naive comments especially the one concerning media coverage lead me to believe that the closest you may have actually been to the spec ops community is the Discovery Channel. I hope this will serve to clear your current misguided perspective.

[Baja]

EVERYONE (bear with me):

1. I have the utmost respect for everyone who supports the US military - be they active duty, reserve, RETIRED, wives, husbands, or civilian support. It was not my intention to show any disrespect to anyone.

My post was composed very late at night and was intended to argue my point that it would be a mistake to allow people who had NOT passed BUD/S AND STT AND finished the probation period AND and served on active duty into the reserve teams. That is, I was speaking in favor of the status quo as far as the SEAL Reserve policy. The post was directed at Dragon.

My reasoning is not that reservists are naturally 'inferior' or any other such nonsense. I simply believe that BUD/S and active service bind SEALs together in a very unique manner, and that allowing "part-timers" without prior service or full training into the fold would detract from that. My argument is similar to those who argue that women should not be let into SpecOps roles - something is lost. It is unlikely that part-timers without prior ops experience would be truly ACCEPTED into the SEAL Reserves, even if they were allowed to join...and poor unit cohesion is dangerous. I would guess that many of the participants on this board are drawn to the SEALs in no small part because of their unique esprit de corps...? Whether I like it or not, most people think of SEALs as the neo-uber-Rambos because of the popular media…and that is the image that weekend warriors (a SUB-class of reservists and potential reservists) seem to be drawn to…so opening the SEAL Reserves to open recruiting would likely lower unit standards.

2. I did not say that I thought those in the 17th SFG and similar groups have lower service standards... I said that "some would argue that..." Why did I choose to phrase it in such an awkward way? For a good reason: I phrased it that way because I do NOT believe it, but I have read many articles and heard statements by others who do. In fact, the mistaken belief that reserve units are "expensive rent-a-soldiers" is one of the many reasons that SpecOps reserve units have been reduced in number. Point your fingers at the statements made by the press and several state legislators, not me.

3. [The APOLOGY part] I should NOT have used the phrase "weekend warriors" as loosely as I did, I thought that my intentions in using it were clear...but they were apparently not. It was not used out of disrespect...I should have qualified myself since it is such a charged phrase. My phrase "dilute the brand" was also somewhat flippant...Again, I meant that part-timers without prior experience would harm the UNIQUE integrity of the SEAL Reserves.

4. The statements that Scout makes about reservists bringing their civilian skills into the military are true, I wholeheartedly agree. The statements he makes about the prior active duty service skills many reservists bring to the table is also true. I never denied this. In fact, he is making my argument for me in many ways (i.e. all reserve units benefit from prior experience and the SEALs should not recruit directly into the SEAL Reserve units.) I find Scout's tone and approach to be offensive...I understand why he was angry, but why pick fights where none should exist?
********************************************
SCOUT:

1. What about my previous posts (this one excluded) do you find uninformed or offensive?

2. I WAS speaking about the 17th SFG which, to the best of my knowledge, IS still a NATIONAL GUARD unit. I may be mistaken, as the SFGs were shuffled a bit in recent years because of budgets and tax cuts (see above) and I no longer know anyone on them. Please do not assume I was saying it was NOT a National Guard unit, since it is commonly known as the 17th SFG, not the 17th NG-SFG or the like. If you disagree, please have a look at the SORC sites, etc.

3. Assuming you were talking about me, I am not a "disrespectful little shit trying to look like I know something." To expand on one of my above statements: I have worked extensively with most branches and units of the military, and I have the utmost respect for all of them - be they active duty, reserve, RETIRED, etc.

4. I am also not a "pup." I have several years of operational experience and hold several degrees. If you are a student, as your profile suggests, I would venture that I am older than you - assuming you did not get a late start on your education or are completing post-doc work.

5. Jump back off the hair trigger. It is people like you that keep many of the people who know what they are talking about from coming here...most soldiers I know are plain-spoken, yet you make everyone feel like they need to append a politically-correct legal disclaimer to every stinking post...not gonna happen with knowledgeable, but rough NCOs.


TRIDENT86:

As ususal, your post was very thoughtful and enlightening. I am thankful that there are people on the board like yourself. I would also like to echo DCH in thanking you for acknowledging the role support units play.

MIKE:

Thanks for posting factual information without a sneer or judgement call. You also add immeasurably to this board.


CHUCK:

You kind of got swept into Scout's self-righteous rage vortex, but I see where you are coming from...at least your post is thoughtful and civilized. [I want to reiterate that I do not think being a Guardsman necessarily implies being a "weekend warrior."]

You get a little snippy at the end, but I guess once you got going you moved yourself http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif As to my "naive" comment about media coverage? It was misunderstood. I did not mean that reserve units were less worthy than active duty units because they get less media glory. It did not occur to me that this is the way it might be interpreted because "media glory" does not enter my mind. I meant exactly what I said ("plain-spoken", direct, literal.) A trivia question. The answer is that the SEAL Reserves made the national media the last time when a rubber bullet used in a training session on the East Coast went offsite and injured someone, resulting in a nasty lawsuit. (Please do not let Scout or anyone else put you onto a hair trigger or enter you in a dick measuring contest in the future http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif )

- (breathless) BAJA

[Baja]

BTW, 17th SFG = 19th SFG? (Pobrecito.)

[Dragon]

You didn't even read my post. I asked why the Navy reseve as a whole required potential recruits to be 26 and have 4 years active experience, that *is* what GreenGhost said.
They won't even let you join the most basic jobs without meetin those requirments, to say nothing of the SEALS.

So, I guess I'll join 20th SFG or look at 3rd Force Recon, they're both in Alabama and close to me.

[Scout]

Baja,

>And a bunch of dip$h!ts with the weekend >warrior mentality and no ops experience >would only "dilute the brand," as it were. >(Some would argue that certain SF Reserve >groups - such as the 17th SFG - have lower >service standards after the initial hooah >than their active duty counterparts.)

This is what I find offensive. We're far from "dip$h!ts". I also find it offensive that you presume to speak from authority about these matters, when your facts are blatantly wrong. You denegrate a special forces group that never existed--maybe you confused 17th for 19th or 20th Group. Then you tell Dragon that only ST 4 has a reserve team attached, only to have this information proven wrong by Mike.

Now you're back-tracking trying to cover up for what you said before. No one said anything about letting untrained sailors into
a reserve team. I know for a fact the reserve SF, LRS, and Marine Recon fully train their members, and its logical the Navy would be the same. I'm not sure where you made this assumption. Further, why would reserve teams not fully integrate any reservist who has completed boot, A-school, BUD/S and STT? If he's been through all the active schools, he's fully entitled to wear the trident, regardless of whether he's served on active duty or not. From what I've seen of "part-time" spec ops, they have the same espirit their active counterparts have. I've no reason to believe Reserve SEALs would be any different.

I have no problem with your "weekend warrior"
comment, we call ourself that. I take issue with being called a "dipshit" and saying
Reservists "dilute the brand". Reservists without prior experiences would no more hurt the reserve teams than a SEAL fresh out of STT would hurt an active team.

Re: 5. Why? Because I busted your chops for putting out wrong information, and being blatantly disrespectful to Reserve warriors? I'm far from politically correct, I'd never say any reserve combat unit was equal to an active counterpart. And I've been posting to SOCNET at least 2-3 years and I still see plenty of knowledgable operators posting here; I haven't driven anyone off yet. Chuck seems to be a knowedgable NCO, and being a Ranger, no doubt rough. Yet he agreed with me.

>Self-righteous rage vortex? No, I simply get a tad miffed when I see someone who's not in the military at all,calling me and my friends "dip$h!ts" because we only serve part-time.

If you wish to discuss this further, feel free to email me
Scout out

[Baja]

DRAGON: I DID read your post. If you are talking about the Navy "in general" then why did you specifically ask about "SEAL" Reserve Teams"!!! I'll admit, I assumed that you meant allowing lesser trained men into the Reserves, not those who were fully qualified.

Why did I make this assumption? Because I'm an ass (ass out u and ass out of me...) I know many young people who hope to get into SEAL teams just so they can brag about it to girls...and they mostly seem to want a free ride. I assumed you were asking the question at the level of those who ask how they can join SEAL Team "7." I assumed, and I was wrong. I'm sorry...to everyone.

SCOUT:

1. I am not calling reservists names, especially not "dip$h!ts." If you look down below you might see why. I do not want to continue to be crucified because I made a faulty assumption about what Dragon meant. When I said dipshits, I was thinking about the militia-types I think would flock to the SEAL Reserves if they allowed open recruiting AND lowered entrance standards. It was a big assumption, and I am sorry...but get off my ass.

2. I'm not trying to backtrack, I'm trying to explain why I made a post I should not have made. If a SEAL is a SEAL then I believe he should be allowed into the reserves (i.e. I favor the status quo.) If a person is not a SEAL, he should not be allowed to join the reserves and call himself one.

3. I did mistake the 17th SFG for the 19th, that is what my small post after the long one meant to indicate. I have the habit of doing this (I meant to say President James Buchanan to someone today, but said President James Madison instead.) I'm human, sue me. I should not speak about Army Reserve units because I have no experience with Army Reserve units...I only know what I have read when I was a policy analyst.

4. I have six years of active duty service and two years in the RESERVES. I also work almost exclusively with the military and feds in my current position. You're preaching to the converted. It probably would have been easier to just say I WAS a Reservist earlier, but I felt the need to explain myself.

5. The ST4 comment was drawn from the same article about the rubber bullet mishap...

TRUCE.

- Baja

[RAT]

Dragon,

This is the way I understand the reserve situation. As of the RIF in the 90's (right after the Gulf) the militery as a whole was hurting for people. There were all sort of incentives to get out. Early retirement, early out's, people were even let out of the contract's before going into the service and so on... Now the forces are not hurting for people. So now the services can for the most part pick and choose who they let in and where they will be sent. Now as you put it it would seem that the Navy want's people who have at least 2 tours in the Navy or have 1 tour and be of a certain age (And I am assumeing with a clear record) to be eligble for reserve service. If you come in the service at 18 (2x4=8yr contracts) your 26 or if like most College waunders (Myself can be included with this bunch) if you enter the service at 21 to 22 your 25 to 26yrs of age when you get out. And the reserves is not a place to baby sit like some area's of the fleet. The Reserves have to be just as sound as a reg unit. With 1/4 of the time. So in my on opinon the Navy has said they do not want to baby sit (lack of a better expression). It's like sports. If you have proven personnel why do you get a bunch of draft picks that you don't know how they will turn out.
Again, this is only my opinon.
RAT OUT!!!

[WS-G]

Sorry, Baja, but you're not worming your way out of this one! All you've done since Scout took you to task for slagging off the reserve components' SOF units/personnel is to waffle, rather than owning up to the fact that you spoke up to gob off concerning that about which you know nothing.

"Several years operational experience", you say? Doing what? With which unit(s)? And where?

"Several degrees"? Again, in what subjects? Which universities? Was/were your magisterial/doctoral dissertation(s) approved? If so, where? What was/were your topic(s)?

And you, Grant, haven't contributed anything to this thread either, except the ramblings of a drooling gun-shop commando. What the Hell do you know about Reserve Components SOF operators/units? Ever served with any? No... I didn't think so. If you had, you wouldn't have sounded off with your uninformed drivel.

In future, I might suggest showing some respect, and perhaps restraining yourselves from speaking out-of-turn and thus proclaiming your own ignorance.

[Baja]

I said I was wrong multiple times and I apologized multiple times. I have admitted I made a faulty assumption, and that I spoke about something I knew very little about (namely, the ARMY Reserves and the Navy SEAL Reserves.) I even called myself an ass.
If you want me to publicly flagellate myself or something you can keep waiting...

I assume you think I'm "waffling" because I didn't bend over and take it without trying to explain myself...? So sorry, massa. If you still have a problem, I could care less.

I served six years in the Navy, and two years (thus far) in the reserves. I have two bachelor degrees, and I am finishing my second masters degree. No doctorate. I will not tell you the subject areas or institutions because that would allow you to pinpoint me...

I currently work as a consultant on technology transfer issues for both the federal goverment (battlefield communications using Jini technology; VR; MEMS; etc.) and corporations. My favorite color is blue and I have a strong dislike for self-appointed bulletin board sheriffs who have too much time on their hands...

[WS-G]

A bit defensive, eh Baja? http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

... and just a wee bit paranoid? http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif

------------------
ex Co. G (-)(Abn/Rgr), 143d INF(LRRP), TXARNG 1981-1985
ex 433MAW (AFRES), 1985-1991
FAA-certificated pilot and Advanced Ground Instructor

[E19]

Scout,

The 17th SFG was in fact a Special Forces Group. The 17th SFG USAR was activated in April 1961 in Boise Idaho. It was relocated to Seattle WA in September, 1961 and was deactivated in January, 1966.

"De Oppresso Liber"

E19SFG

[Bruce]

William - It is not paranoi if they really are out to get you!!!!!!!

[Sweetbriar]

(...since someone else drug this back up to the top of the list...) Baja, if you're out there, could you please drop by the Shack some evening? Thanks.